Post a Stupid Question - Prewar 101

[frankbmd]

I'll bet that many of you have questions about vintage prewar cards that you are embarrassed to ask. This thread is for you. Ask a stupid question or answer someone else's stupid question. And you don't need to be a noob to participate.

If successful, this thread will be a treasure trove for new converts to prewar collecting. So without further ado, let's get started with the first question.

Were T202 Triple Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?:eek:

[rdwyer]

Is this Wagner real?

[Rookiemonster]

Why is a grade on a card called a flip?

[Mountaineer1999]

......

[ramram]

When you say "Pre War", which war are you talking about? There's been a bunch of them.

Rob M.

[njdunkin1]

Why is a grade on a card called a flip?

The flip, to my knowledge, refers to the little index card thingy at the top of the case. This includes everything. The grade, serial number, it's all there.

[bxb]

Is this Wagner real?

If it is 3rd party graded, be assured it is real. Nor has it been trimmed.

[Kawika]

Did Shoeless Joe ever play in the majors without shoes? If he did, how did he avoid getting spiked?

[frankbmd]

I'll bet that many of you have questions about vintage prewar cards that you are embarrassed to ask. This thread is for you. Ask a stupid question or answer someone else's stupid question. And you don't need to be a noob to participate.

If successful, this thread will be a treasure trove for new converts to prewar collecting. So without further ado, let's get started with the first question.

Were T202 Triple Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?:eek:

Since I have never seen a looooong prewar cigarette, I presume they were folded, which begs the question are all high grade T202 cards creased?

[Rookiemonster]

The flip, to my knowledge, refers to the little index card thingy at the top of the case. This includes everything. The grade, serial number, it's all there.

I know what it is . I was asking why is it called a flip .

[brianp-beme]

When you say "Pre War", which war are you talking about? There's been a bunch of them.

Rob M.

When it comes to vintage bb cards, the term 'Prewar' is commonly known to refer to cards issued before the involvelment of the United States in World War 2. Thus the 1941 Play Ball, 1941 Double Play and 1941 Goudey all make the Prewar cut.

Brian (Great thread Frank)

[Brian Van Horn]

Thank you, Frank.

[pokerplyr80]

Who came up with the letters and numbers to identify prewar sets? M116, t206, e145, etc.

[brianp-beme]

One of my favorite sayings that I may have been the first in this entire world to coin..."Your stupid question is better than my stupid answer"

Brian

[darwinbulldog]

Who came up with the letters and numbers to identify prewar sets? M116, t206, e145, etc.

Jefferson Burdick. What do I win?

[Snapolit1]

What does a "strong registration" mean? Is that code for a high grade?

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Before our involvement in WW II started what were pre war cards called?:confused:

[jmb]

Why is there no 51 Bowman Joe DiMaggio ? ;)

[brianp-beme]

Who came up with the letters and numbers to identify prewar sets? M116, t206, e145, etc.

David K. posted a great article recently about the man who was the founding father of the ACC system:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=224583

Brian

[pokerplyr80]

Jefferson Burdick. What do I win?

Thanks for the quick response. No cash prize unfortunately.

[brianp-beme]

Before our involvement in WW II started what were pre war cards called?:confused:

The old joke is 'food'.

Brian

[glchen]

why prewar and not pre-Topps? who started calling cards from this era prewar cards and when?

[Cliff Bowman]

I just received an e-mail from a General Shebango in Nigeria, who also says that he is a Prince, in which he tells me that he is in possession of a PSA 11 T206 Doyle NY N.L. with a Drum back that has a ghost image of Joe Jackson sliding into second on the front and evidence of being next to Honus Wagner on the back. He says that he wants me to either wire him $100,000 in US dollars or to give him my bank routing number and account number. Which method would you suggest?

[brianp-beme]

why prewar and not pre-Topps? who started calling cards from this era prewar cards and when?

I used to call them PreWW2 cards, but found that dealers when asked this needed me to clarify what I was looking for. I think the prewar term has been prominent for about twenty years(?).

I believe that because of the virtual stop of baseball card production due to the war, it made a better break. The Pre-Topps term is not bad, except it gets a little messy with the Bowman and Leaf mass produced cards in the years before Topps entered the market.

Brian

[atx840]

Are T206 "errors" getting out of hand :confused:

http://i.imgur.com/RRwwXdr.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/xTjx4X3.jpg

[Jobu]

It means that each of the color layers in the printing process is perfectly aligned (aka registered) with every other layer thereby creating a clear, sharp image. The more layers that are out of whack the weaker the registration (and less appealing the image ----- unless the registration is waaaaaaaay off and it moves into the realm of the freaks - this thread needs a card!).



What does a "strong registration" mean? Is that code for a high grade?

[frankbmd]

When you say "Pre War", which war are you talking about? There's been a bunch of them.

Rob M.


Rob, I believe the correct answer is the "War on Poverty".

[Shoeless Moe]

I know what it is . I was asking why is it called a flip .

Because one of the first employees at PSA was comedian Flip Wilson, and he was in charge of grading the first cards. The rest is history.

[Jobu]

If Honus Wagner made ALC pull his T206 because he didn't want his image to help promote tobacco use in children, then why did the Flying Dutchman let this fly 40 years later?

[Rookiemonster]

If Honus Wagner made ALC pull his T206 because he didn't want his image to help promote tobacco use in children, then why did the Flying Dutchman let this fly 40 years later?

Probably just milk duds .

Of course lets just call the grade on a card a flip after flip Wilson . That makes sense I should have known .

[bxb]

Why is a grade on a card called a flip?

I believe the term derives from removing the label and replacing it with a better one - like flipping a house for example. Adios.

[4815162342]

I have audibly laughed out loud at several posts in this thread already. Frank, you're the best as always. I don't know what's better: the War on Poverty, or Honus Wagner eating milk duds. Hilarious!

[Snapolit1]

Love a joke as much as the next guy, but a helpful answer might be more useful to a fellow collector than a joke.

[4815162342]

Love a joke as much as the next guy, but a helpful answer might be more useful to a fellow collector than a joke.



Ok, fair point. Bryan answered your question about registration. What other questions do you have?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

What does a "strong registration" mean? Is that code for a high grade?

Registration is a printing term for how accurately an image is reproduced. Poor registration can be fuzzy, color not staying inside an outline, doubling etc... 1958 Topps is notorious for Poor registration, especially the Ted Williams card. If you get one with nice registration it's a coup.

[glchen]

I used to call them PreWW2 cards, but found that dealers when asked this needed me to clarify what I was looking for. I think the prewar term has been prominent for about twenty years(?).

I believe that because of the virtual stop of baseball card production due to the war, it made a better break. The Pre-Topps term is not bad, except it gets a little messy with the Bowman and Leaf mass produced cards in the years before Topps entered the market.

Brian

Thanks! Good to know.

Couldn't help but think of some more questions .... Why do Gem Mint (10) cards have off center backs? Why do so many people on ebay find cards of Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and Honus Wagner in their attic from their grandfather? Why do these same people not bother to get these cards possibly valued in the thousands graded but are willing to do an unreserved auction starting at 99 cents?

[swarmee]

Why do Gem Mint (10) cards have off center backs?

Because they're allowed to by the definition of Gem Mint by the grading company. PSA permits up to 75/25 on the reverse and up to 60/40 on the front. Beckett is much tougher on centering.

[KingFisk]

Why does one series of T206 say "350-460" subjects, rather than just 460? Like when it went from 150 to 350? Trying to keep collectors off balance ?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[mechanicalman]

I see a lot of T206 Polar Bears with tobacco staining. Is this a common trait or just a coincidence? Were they packed differently than other issues? Also, why are American Beauty borders so thin?

[xplainer]

I see a lot of T206 Polar Bears with tobacco staining. Is this a common trait or just a coincidence? Were they packed differently than other issues? Also, why are American Beauty borders so thin?

PB's were packaged in raw tobacco packs..in contact with the tobacco.
The others were in a side pocket of the cigarette pack.

[1880nonsports]

common to the issue, yes, the slide and shell was thinner........

[bravos4evr]

Aside from the "throwing" and "Portrait" T206 cards, are there any other old Rube Waddell cards out there? I can't seem to find even a picture of one.

[xplainer]

Did Shoeless Joe ever play in the majors without shoes? If he did, how did he avoid getting spiked?

He wore some white sox thingies that went half-way up his calves.
Several pictures of him in the T202's center panel.

[bxb]

Why are rookie cards more valuable than a player's other cards?

So what if it's his first card?

[Eric72]

Why do people pronounce Wagner's first name as HO-nuss, when there are many instances where he is referred to as Johannes, Hans, and John?

Most will disagree with me. However, I still contend that it should be pronounced HAH-nuss. To those who disagree....why?

[brianp-beme]

Why are rookie cards more valuable than a player's other cards?

So what if it's his first card?

No real good reason beside that collectors collectively determined they were more valuable. This desirability seemed to gain momentum by the mid 1980's with newer issues, and has crept into the vintage market probably within the last 12-15 years.

I always preferred the last Topps card of a player...Roberto Clemente's 1973 was a great card in my eyes, because of his untimely death it showed his entire career stats.

Brian

[frankbmd]

No real good reason beside that collectors collectively determined they were more valuable. This desirability seemed to gain momentum by the mid 1980's with newer issues, and has crept into the vintage market probably within the last 12-15 years.

I always preferred the last Topps card of a player...Roberto Clemente's 1973 was a great card in my eyes, because of his untimely death it showed his entire career stats.

Brian

That's why Brian's collection consists exclusively of players who had only a single card issued, both their rookie and last card rolled into one.;)

[brianp-beme]

That's why Brian's collection consists exclusively of players who had only a single card issued, both their rookie and last card rolled into one.;)

Man if it were only so. That would take up a lot less space. Space is the final downsizing frontier.

Brian

[xplainer]

That's why Brian's collection consists exclusively of players who had only a single card issued, both their rookie and last card rolled into one.;)

Now, that is an interesting concept Frank. I really like that.
Get a PSA 10, you probably have a 1 of 1.

[Touch'EmAll]

In coin collecting the first year of a new issue is usually no big deal - unless accompanied by a real low mintage. Most rookie cards do not necessarily have low "mintages" compared to others of a player.

Someone back around the late 1970's came up with the idea of holy grail Rookie designation - and the herd followed - and is still following. OK, go get 'em tigers, get those rookie cards!

[steve B]

Ok, the actual explanation for "rookie" cards being worth more -

Before collecting became somewhat mainstream cards were mostly collected by kids. Kids typically collected for 2-4 years, and after that time the cards went into a sort of collecting limbo. Maybe given to a younger brother (Or sister as I did with some of mine) Maybe stored out of sight until mom found them after HS graduation, maybe just tossed.

Also typically, a player didn't become an overnight sensation. So they might not get a really big following until maybe their 4th or 5th year.

When cards were being disposed of sometimes a kid would hang on to a few favorites. These were more often established stars or locally popular players.
So the first cards of some players survived in lower quantities than cards of stars.

Once the hobby became more mainstream, this became more of a traditional thing rather than anything based on there being fewer available. And with the proliferation of draft pick cards and eventually a few high school prospects sets it got silly. So I believe it was Beckett that produced a definition of a "rookie card" That has become a generally accepted standard.

Whether that definition truly makes sense is a matter perhaps for its own thread, I personally disagree with it on some points, but it's accepted and overall isn't bad although it gets trickier for prewar cards. (It's skewed towards what can be reliably sold by a dealer, so most of the tougher cards are out, and the mainstream ones that exist in quantities from "not too tough" to "my goodness they made a lot of these" are in.


There are a number of people here who collected before what I consider the first big boom, roughly 77-81 and a bit beyond, Their recollection of the timing may be different as 77 was when I began seriously collecting and 77- 81 saw a large increase in full time or more serious part time dealers. From a handful in the country to several in any major city. The downturn caused by the 81 strike took out a bunch of the ones that weren't well funded or just weren't all that into being a card dealer.


Steve B

[HRBAKER]

Did Shoeless Joe ever play in the majors without shoes? If he did, how did he avoid getting spiked?

Ah yes, a blast from the past.

[clydepepper]

Just how did Archie Graham know who Gil Hodges was?

[CMIZ5290]

Just how did Archie Graham know who Gil Hodges was?

Raymond, Great observation to a great movie. Also, why did he acknowledge Mel Ott?

[Sean]

I see a lot of T206 Polar Bears with tobacco staining. Is this a common trait or just a coincidence? Were they packed differently than other issues? Also, why are American Beauty borders so thin?

AB borders are thinner than other T206 because the cigarette packs that they came in were more narrow than the other packs.

[mooch]

what is a pre rookie card and who decides it?

[mechanicalman]

AB borders are thinner than other T206 because the cigarette packs that they came in were more narrow than the other packs.

Thank you, Sean. Makes sense.

Makes me wonder if T206 PSA 8s also came in smaller packs.;)

[mechanicalman]

PB's were packaged in raw tobacco packs..in contact with the tobacco.
The others were in a side pocket of the cigarette pack.

I knew there had to be a reason. Thank you for the explanation, xplainer.

[mechanicalman]

While we are still in a judgement-free zone, another question:

Why are Exhibits so relatively affordable? I assumed it was a pop issue, but consider this: PSA has graded 158 DiMaggio 39-46 Exhibits and over 1000 39 Play Ball DiMaggios. The SMR of a Play Ball PSA 5 is roughly 5x the price of the Exhibit. And in my opinion, the Exhibit is so much better looking (less toothy.) Any hypotheses are welcome.

[Snapolit1]

Since they are postcards some folks don't consider them to be true baseball cards.

I love them. Some of my most favorite pieces.

[Snapolit1]

Ditto for Leaf and Goudey Premiums. The Rith Goudey premium is rare and stunning, and you can buy a decent one for under $1000.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Also, why are American Beauty borders so thin?

Box was narrower

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Just how did Archie Graham know who Gil Hodges was?

He lived a long life as a doctor, and Hodges was a well known ball-player. If we suppose he kept his knowledge when he reverted to his youth it could make sense. We really quibbling over what makes sense in a fantasy/ghost story?

[frankbmd]

I'll bet that many of you have questions about vintage prewar cards that you are embarrassed to ask. This thread is for you. Ask a stupid question or answer someone else's stupid question. And you don't need to be a noob to participate.

If successful, this thread will be a treasure trove for new converts to prewar collecting. So without further ado, let's get started with the first question.

Were T202 Triple Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?:eek:

Since I have never seen a looooong prewar cigarette, I presume they were folded, which begs the question are all high grade T202 cards creased as a result?

The premise of this thread was to post a stupid question that you would otherwise be embarrassed to post. The presumption was that most stupid questions could be answered by the "intelligentsia" on the board quite easily in what has been rightly referred to as a "Judgement-free zone".

The questions posed have been for the most part appropriate and many answers have been given.

So why in the hell after twelve hours has my initial question been ignored. Perhaps it wasn't so stupid after all. Maybe starting out with the triple folder question was a bit presumptuous on my part, so i will ask another related question.

Were T201 Double Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?

and

Are all high grade T201 cards creased as a result of their packaging?

[brianp-beme]

AB borders are thinner than other T206 because the cigarette packs that they came in were more narrow than the other packs.

There is still some debate about the American Beauty cigarette packs, as it appears there were some that were possibly wider. The following thread from awhile back discusses some possibilities, and has images of American Beauty packs.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=182929&highlight=beauty

Brian

[brianp-beme]

The premise of this thread was to post a stupid question that you would otherwise be embarrassed to post. The presumption was that most stupid questions could be answered by the "intelligentsia" on the board quite easily in what has been rightly referred to as a "Judgement-free zone".

The questions posed have been for the most part appropriate and many answers have been given.

So why in the hell after twelve hours has my initial question been ignored. Perhaps it wasn't so stupid after all. Maybe starting out with the triple folder question was a bit presumptuous on my part, so i will ask another related question.

Were T201 Double Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?

and

Are all high grade T201 cards creased as a result of their packaging?

Wish I could help you Frank...I can only answer slow-pitch softball questions.

Brian

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

since they were indeed folded in the packs, and it was a machine fold, I don't believe they are technically considered creases. What does often happen is that the hinge (what the intelligentsia call the crease) wears on the edges of the cards the more it is used and you get a notching effect on the borders. In my experience this is what can really damage the grade of an otherwise appealing T201 or T202.

[Paul S]

Frank, I can't answer your question, but...

Why are T202 Hassan named Triple Folders when they only have 2 folds?
Why are they not called Hassan Triptychs?
Why do I occasionally see them with a center crease?
Why do people cut them in thirds and sell the pieces on ebay?(Hi Brian:))

[pariah1107]

Are strip cards naked?

[clydepepper]

He lived a long life as a doctor, and Hodges was a well known ball-player. If we suppose he kept his knowledge when he reverted to his youth it could make sense. We really quibbling over what makes sense in a fantasy/ghost story?

Scott - you missed the joke...I was just sharing what I consider a stupid question...as per the thread title.

I love that movie - even with it's imperfections. Movies, after all, are at their best when they serve as escapism and Field of Dreams definitely fits that bill.

[clydepepper]

Are strip cards naked?



only if they are not graded (RAW) :eek:

[Billy5858]

:eek:only if they are not graded (RAW) :eek:

:eek: :D :D

[LuckyLarry]

I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.

A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.

VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.

The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.

To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.

Larry

[ajquigs]

I'm enjoying this thread.

A question: Are there any prevailing guesstimates / conventional wisdom on roughly how many cards were produced - and how many survive - for particular sets. For example, do people in the hobby have some rough idea how many 1933 Goudey #181 Babe Ruths or T-206 Dark Cap Mattys (or cards in Topps issues, while we're at it) were produced and survive?

Thanks.

[frankbmd]

I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.

A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.

VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.

The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.

To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.

Larry


Larry,

Like Jeopardy, in order to get one of my stupid answers, your stupid question must be in the form of a question.

Sincerely,

Alex Trebec:cool:

[LuckyLarry]

Like Jeopardy, in order to get one of my stupid answers, your stupid question must be in the form of a question.
Sincerely,
Alex Trebec:cool:BUSTED! LOL!
Why should I care about "VCP Data" and "SMR Data"?
Larry
(I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.
A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.
VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.
The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.
To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.)

[frankbmd]

BUSTED! LOL!
Why should I care about "VCP Data" and "SMR Data"?
Larry
(I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.
A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.
VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.
The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.
To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.)

Larry,

After looking at your cards, I can assure you that you can safely ignore that "data".

You are an outlier, my friend.:D

[dougscats]

Another reason rookie cards cost more is that they are collected by other than set-collectors. For instance, I'm a hall-of-fame collector, and at this point, having collected most of them, I especially try to get their rookie cards. There are others who only collect rookie cards. So, there's more demand and a larger market for them.

Also, to point out the obvious, it is the player's first season, and that makes the card more special.

[drmondobueno]

The premise of this thread was to post a stupid question that you would otherwise be embarrassed to post. The presumption was that most stupid questions could be answered by the "intelligentsia" on the board quite easily in what has been rightly referred to as a "Judgement-free zone".

The questions posed have been for the most part appropriate and many answers have been given.

So why in the hell after twelve hours has my initial question been ignored. Perhaps it wasn't so stupid after all. Maybe starting out with the triple folder question was a bit presumptuous on my part, so i will ask another related question.

Were T201 Double Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?

and

Are all high grade T201 cards creased as a result of their packaging?

Frank,

Mecca cigarettes were about as long as camel unfiltered. Do they still sell unfiltered cigarettes in the U. S.? But I digress... The cards came folded and that fold can greatly affect the quality of the card. Think chipping and wear on a typical card. I asked about this a few years back in a discussion with Earl, formerly the Customer Service guru at SGC (hey, Earl, what is up). His comments are what you would expect for a standard card with the caveat to pay attention to the condition of the fold.

As for the fold, it is quite evident on higher graded T 201's, but much cleaner, obviously created by machine in the print and coalation process, with a smoother surface. And yes, the condition of the back of the card, especially the fold, will have an impact on grading.

I have a question about T201. The cards were printed at two locations, factory 30 and 649. Which location represents a scarcer card, and why doesn't anyone collect by factory location on these cards like we see on T205, T206, T207?

[LuckyLarry]

Thanks Frank!
outlier: someone who is different or far from a main or related body.
Larry

[Eric72]

Thanks Frank!
outlier: someone who is different or far from a main or related body.
Larry

Congrats. Statistically, being an outlier, you're a 5%er. Not sure if your local motorcycle club has a patch for that, though. :eek:

Have a great holiday weekend.

[drmondobueno]

Why is there no 51 Bowman Joe DiMaggio ? ;)

Add to that "Why is there no 1955 Topps Mantle?"

[BBB]

Fr

As for the fold, it is quite evident on higher graded T 201's, but much cleaner, obviously created by machine in the print and coalation process, with a smoother surface. And yes, the condition of the back of the card, especially the fold, will have an impact on grading.

?



I have a partial set. All PSA. I gotta say this is the most inconsistently graded cards (set) I have encountered. The PSA 7 and 4.5 look very similar. It's all in the details of the crease I'm told. But when you look at a stack and try to blindly order them by grade, you'll see you are waaaaay off from what PSA says. Not in any particular direction either. Could be just me, but I've heard others say similar things.

[abroome]

Add to that "Why is there no 1955 Topps Mantle?"
Mantle was under contract with Bowman at the time.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[egri]

I'm enjoying this thread.

A question: Are there any prevailing guesstimates / conventional wisdom on roughly how many cards were produced - and how many survive - for particular sets. For example, do people in the hobby have some rough idea how many 1933 Goudey #181 Babe Ruths or T-206 Dark Cap Mattys (or cards in Topps issues, while we're at it) were produced and survive?

Thanks.

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago that had a link to one of Bob Lemke's blog posts where he gave the sales revenue for Topps from 1951-1961, and he had another post that included the sales revenue for Goudey during the 1930s. If we knew how much Topps sold each pack of cards for, and what percentage of that business was baseball cards, then you could get a rough estimate of production for each year.

My question: every time I read about detecting forged baseball cards, there is always something about how modern printing techniques and equipment are different from back then, and knowing those differences can help spot fakes. But other than money, what prevents a forger from buying a printing press from the 1950s, and inks and cardboard from around then, and cranking out a few sheets of 1952 Topps #311s? It seems to me that the knowledge is out there, the equipment and materials are out there, really the only thing that is missing is someone who can tie the two together.

[sago]

Supposedly there are 60-100 T206 Wagners that have survived. Are there any legitimate guesses to how many were likely printed before it was pulled from production?

Is it a relative percentage to all other T206's, so maybe 1% survived, or higher?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The odds of finding the correct vintage cardboard are slim and none. Topps in all likelihood ordered that custom for them. I worked at an ad agency that had it's own print shop. You would not believe the thousands of different types of stock available to print on. To an expert you'd never fool them with the wrong stock.

[drmondobueno]

I have a partial set. All PSA. I gotta say this is the most inconsistently graded cards (set) I have encountered. The PSA 7 and 4.5 look very similar. It's all in the details of the crease I'm told. But when you look at a stack and try to blindly order them by grade, you'll see you are waaaaay off from what PSA says. Not in any particular direction either. Could be just me, but I've heard others say similar things.

That is for sure. I can tell you T201's do not cross over well between PSA and SGC. And no way can the eyeball test see the difference between a 7 and an eight without looking at a large number of either. Between a 6 and 7 it can be tough, usually corners, registration, the fold, centering. And guessing on an ungraded card? Forget it, I give up. One card I sent in came back evidence of trimming but danged if I coud see it, with or without magnification. Still, love the set.

[JustinD]

Okay sorry if this crosses the streams on pre/post war...

If as in my estimates T206 was darn close to one of the highest produced sets in card history, but because of barkeeps just sweeping hundreds of them into the trash each night made scarcer by survival in theory. In 100 years does someone see junk wax held in the same regard because it is basically dumped by the ton daily? Really...who is holding junk commons?

I won't be alive to see the day, but it is something I have thought of.

My 2nd question is sadly grading based, which always brings out the TPG hating. Sorry...

Why does PSA sometimes number grade hand cut cards, but not always? I have strip and sheet cut cards with PSA numbers. The growling on BVG is that they will grade sheet cuts and the PSA guys say that with disdain, which is silly because PSA has certainly graded sheet cuts. What is the reasoning on the 50/50 standard on hand cuts with all of the TPGs honestly? It seems all of them either give a grade or an "auth", with no rhyme or reason.

[Mark]

If Honus Wagner made ALC pull his T206 because he didn't want his image to help promote tobacco use in children, then why did the Flying Dutchman let this fly 40 years later?


because kids didn't have to buy a pack of cigarettes to get the card.

[sbfinley]

Why does PSA sometimes number grade hand cut cards, but not always? I have strip and sheet cut cards with PSA numbers. The growling on BVG is that they will grade sheet cuts and the PSA guys say that with disdain, which is silly because PSA has certainly graded sheet cuts. What is the reasoning on the 50/50 standard on hand cuts with all of the TPGs honestly? It seems all of them either give a grade or an "auth", with no rhyme or reason.

If I understand correctly PSA grades certain hand cuts if they were manufactured to be cut. Imagine a card printed on the box of a food product, you likely picturing something with a dotted outline for cutting. It was manufactured to be cut by the collector, thus PSA will sometimes grade it. It's the explanation I've always heard or assume I heard. Don't really know, I'm getting old.

[birdman42]

Why is a grade on a card called a flip?

AFAIK, the term goes back to the coin business. There are coin holders made of plastic (vinyl or PVC) that are 2x4 inches, with a pocket on each side. Typically a coin goes in one pocket and a card with description, grade, etc goes in the other pocket, then you fold the holder in half so it's 2x2. The holders are called "flips" because you can flip them open. Eventually the card itself came to be called a flip. By extension, anything with a coin's description and grade came to be a flip. And when card grading came into being, by the same company that was doing most of the coin grading (PCGS-->PSA), the analogy was obvious.

Bill

[ASpaceman]

Did Shoeless Joe ever play in the majors without shoes? If he did, how did he avoid getting spiked?

LOL.....classic.

[JustinD]

If I understand correctly PSA grades certain hand cuts if they were manufactured to be cut. Imagine a card printed on the box of a food product, you likely picturing something with a dotted outline for cutting. It was manufactured to be cut by the collector, thus PSA will sometimes grade it. It's the explanation I've always heard or assume I heard. Don't really know, I'm getting old.

I have heard this also, however I have PSA graded 1985 Topps Minis in my test collection and as these were swiped from the Topps dumpster in only sheet form and never cut, nor distributed, they are completely sheet cuts.

[4815162342]

AFAIK, the term goes back to the coin business. There are coin holders made of plastic (vinyl or PVC) that are 2x4 inches, with a pocket on each side. Typically a coin goes in one pocket and a card with description, grade, etc goes in the other pocket, then you fold the holder in half so it's 2x2. The holders are called "flips" because you can flip them open. Eventually the card itself came to be called a flip. By extension, anything with a coin's description and grade came to be a flip. And when card grading came into being, by the same company that was doing most of the coin grading (PCGS-->PSA), the analogy was obvious.



Bill


That is interesting, Bill. Thank you for posting.

[Touch'EmAll]

Here is a bonehead question. I won an eBay lot, however I forgot what I put for my max bid was (been out of town and busy). Now that I won the lot I cannot seem to go back and find out what my max bid was - any help? Thanks.

[Billy5858]

That is interesting, Bill. Thank you for posting.

"AFAIK, the term goes back to the coin business. There are coin holders made of plastic (vinyl or PVC) that are 2x4 inches, with a pocket on each side. Typically a coin goes in one pocket and a card with description, grade, etc goes in the other pocket, then you fold the holder in half so it's 2x2. The holders are called "flips" because you can flip them open. Eventually the card itself came to be called a flip. By extension, anything with a coin's description and grade came to be a flip. And when card grading came into being, by the same company that was doing most of the coin grading (PCGS-->PSA), the analogy was obvious. Bill T."

+1 ..........Still kind of don't get it but Thanks for the info....interesting

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I have a question. If this is Prewar 101, then what happened to the Prewar 1-100 courses? I'm now feeling a bit overwhelmed with these recently posted questions that delve into the deep profundities of older baseball cards. :confused:

[frankbmd]

I have a question. If this is Prewar 101, then what happened to the Prewar 1-100 courses? I'm now feeling a bit overwhelmed with these recently posted questions that delve into the deep profundities of older baseball cards. :confused:

Dan,

If you are overwhelmed, we are all in trouble. Did I say that Prewar 101 was an entry level course? Some folks think that profundity is stupid. Q.E.D.;)

[Tennis13]

Why do some 1934 Goudey Gehrig #37 have a blue printer mark below the L in Lou on the white border, and some don't?

[Leon]

I have a question. If this is Prewar 101, then what happened to the Prewar 1-100 courses? I'm now feeling a bit overwhelmed with these recently posted questions that delve into the deep profundities of older baseball cards. :confused:

Prewar 1-100 is learned at HKU!! ... (Hard Knocks University)

My best amateur move (not really a question) might be when I bought an E97 black and White, Irv Young from Terry K, some 16? yrs ago. When told it was Irv, after I bought it, I slyly played like I knew all along.

.

[DeanH3]

T205 question...I haven't handled many, but is it more common to find them with nice sparkly gold borders? Or with a more dull (oxidized) look? Thanks in advance.

[steve B]

Frank,


I have a question about T201. The cards were printed at two locations, factory 30 and 649. Which location represents a scarcer card, and why doesn't anyone collect by factory location on these cards like we see on T205, T206, T207?

They were printed in one location, I believe American Lithographic Company in NY, and were distributed from two different cigarette packing plants.

I don't know if any are tougher from one location or another.
But I think that might be the case as the plants served different distribution areas. So the player mix may have varied.

I collect most things to include factory differences. I just haven't done a whole lot with T201s yet.

Steve B

[steve B]

My question: every time I read about detecting forged baseball cards, there is always something about how modern printing techniques and equipment are different from back then, and knowing those differences can help spot fakes. But other than money, what prevents a forger from buying a printing press from the 1950s, and inks and cardboard from around then, and cranking out a few sheets of 1952 Topps #311s? It seems to me that the knowledge is out there, the equipment and materials are out there, really the only thing that is missing is someone who can tie the two together.

Certainly the old technology exists, there was very little difference between the stuff I was around in 79-81 and what was done in the 50's (As far as lithography goes other processes will be harder or easier depending on how important the equipment was to the process and final product. typography from maybe 1700's on? pretty easy to get, Rotogravure as done for newspaper supplements in the 30's? Not at all easy)

As has been mentioned already, finding the exact materials would be a real challenge. Although for 52 Mantle or T206 Wagner money I'm sure someone could give it a really good try.

The difficulty is in producing the color separations and halftones EXACTLY like the originals. Many of the better fakes of cards that have circulated since the 80's are fairly easy to detect since the solid areas especially black borders etc are not solid but screened.

I believe that with an original, it might be possible. But would require a lot of knowledge in several different related but different fields. You'd have to know paper very well to get an excellent match. But to get an exact match might require ordering it to those specs from a paper mill that could do it. Then you'd need to get the inks "right", and while it's not difficult to get close, getting it really close might be hard. The plates for each color would be very difficult to reproduce exactly.


To put it in some perspective.
Leaf or their printer couldn't get the colors or the plates for the solid colors the same at all and they were the manufacturer.
In the junk wax era multiple plants were used, and the huge array of varieties is because they all did things slightly differently. 88 Score are screened differently on the same card, either because they made new masks (The negatives the plates are made from) for later print runs, or sent the original art to at least two different plants.


If the manufacturers can't make exact duplicates of their own stuff...........

Steve B

[steve B]

Okay sorry if this crosses the streams on pre/post war...

If as in my estimates T206 was darn close to one of the highest produced sets in card history, but because of barkeeps just sweeping hundreds of them into the trash each night made scarcer by survival in theory. In 100 years does someone see junk wax held in the same regard because it is basically dumped by the ton daily? Really...who is holding junk commons?

I won't be alive to see the day, but it is something I have thought of.



There are or were likely dealers that ordered more junk wax than the entire production run of T206s. Not that there weren't an awful lot of T206s made.

Even the junk stuff that was fringe sets like Signature rookies or Front Row probably produced more for one set than were made for the tougher backs. SR was usually around 45000 base sets, 1% survival would be 450 cards!

I used to save junk wax commons, then had kids and needed the space more.
There is some "junk" that's not as common as everyone thinks it is.

Steve B

[HercDriver]

OK, here's my question for Frank and Co:

Burdick named T206s, but I believe he did it wrong. I think there should be multiple sets, called 1909-1911 Sovereign, 1909-1911 Old Mill, 1909-1911 Tolstoi, etc. They should each be their own set.

So I guess my question is, for you believers in lumping them all together into one T206 set...does your 1978 Topps binder have OPC and Burger King cards in it? It should by that logic...

And I already know the first response will be that you don't collect 1978 cards... so that response is disallowed. I am looking for somebody to explain their logic to me.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

T205 question...I haven't handled many, but is it more common to find them with nice sparkly gold borders? Or with a more dull (oxidized) look? Thanks in advance.

definitely a variety but more tend towards dull, for obvious reasons. It's always a treat to find a sparkler!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Geno: I believe all those companies were owned by one tobacco giant, whereas Topps certainly didn't own Burger King or Zest or in later years Drake's Cakes or Coca Cola.

[DeanH3]

definitely a variety but more tend towards dull, for obvious reasons. It's always a treat to find a sparkler!

The Young I recently picked up has a nice sparkly border compared the the one I already had and it does make a huge difference. Thanks for the response. Much appreciated . :)

[Kzoo]

Here's my t206 question I've been thinking about for awhile..... When t206's were printed on sheets, was the entire reverse side of the sheet all one tobacco brand, or where they mixed up with Piedmonts next to Polar Bears and Sweet Caps? ......or has anybody ever seen a severe miscut back with 2 different brands showing?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

here's my dumb question, how do you guys add signatures to your posts? I assume you don't type it all in every time and I want to recognize my trading partners who sold me some great cards like a lot of you do.

As a way of redeeming this post: kzoo, it would be massively inefficient to print multiple backs on a sheet, plus it wouldn't make any sense with the different factory numbers. So while I don't have any proof I have never seen a miscut with two different backs and print shop logic would argue against the possibility.

[egri]

Click on User CP, then in the menu on the left, under Settings & Options, click Edit Signature.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

muchas gracias!

[DaveW]

Before our involvement in WW II started what were pre war cards called?:confused:

"Modern shiny stuff"

[steve B]

OK, here's my question for Frank and Co:

Burdick named T206s, but I believe he did it wrong. I think there should be multiple sets, called 1909-1911 Sovereign, 1909-1911 Old Mill, 1909-1911 Tolstoi, etc. They should each be their own set.

So I guess my question is, for you believers in lumping them all together into one T206 set...does your 1978 Topps binder have OPC and Burger King cards in it? It should by that logic...

And I already know the first response will be that you don't collect 1978 cards... so that response is disallowed. I am looking for somebody to explain their logic to me.

I think the article in another thread where the writer mentioned back collecting but said the goal should be a mounted set of all the different fronts pretty much outlines the early thinking and some of the current thinking.

Personally I'd put them as individual sets but under the same major heading like some of the other sets, so T206-1, T206-2 etc. I just kNOW that would be really popular ;)

As far as the 78s go
1) You forgot the Zest soap set :)
2)And the mail in team card sheet
3) Here's the sort of binder you'd need
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Casite-Automotive-Manual-Catalog-Display-Rack-Vintage-Industrial-Auto-Parts-/152135116210?hash=item236bf5a5b2:g:AJEAAOSwrURXPgD x

And even that uses what are really three smaller binders........

:D

Steve B

[V117collector]

...Can you soak 1933 (R319) Goudey's to remove paper?:confused:

[CardboardCollector]

So PSA and SGC are TPG (Third Party Graders), what happened to first and second party graders?

[swarmee]

So PSA and SGC are TPG (Third Party Graders), what happened to first and second party graders?

TPGs are so noted because they are a disinterested third party with the first two parties being the party of the first part, the seller, and the party of the second part, the buyer.

[DHogan]

This is a great topic. :) Thank you for starting it Frank. I was always worried about asking questions on the forum. I didn't want to look like a fool. By asking silly questions.

[sreader3]

Here's my t206 question I've been thinking about for awhile..... When t206's were printed on sheets, was the entire reverse side of the sheet all one tobacco brand, or where they mixed up with Piedmonts next to Polar Bears and Sweet Caps? ......or has anybody ever seen a severe miscut back with 2 different brands showing?

Each sheet had a single brand and factory on the reverse.

As for the earlier question about American Beauty, nobody has presented a convincing argument (at least in my mind) why they were cut thinner.

But as an aside, it dawned on me recently that the AB 350 frame was removed, resulting in the AB "no frame" cards, after ALC printers noticed that so many of the AB 350 frame cards (which were cut thinner) were miscut (so that the frame was truncated). Cause and effect.

Edited to add: Thanks Frank. One of the better threads lately.

[Yoda]

Who was the first black ballplayer to integrate the American League and who did he play for?
Hint: It isn't Jackie Robinson.

[trdcrdkid]

Who was the first black ballplayer to integrate the American League and who did he play for?
Hint: It isn't Jackie Robinson.

Larry Doby

[Yoda]

Larry Doby
You only get 50% credit. You didn't answer the whole question,

[trdcrdkid]

You only get 50% credit. You didn't answer the whole question,

Oh, sorry. Cleveland Indians.

[Beatles Guy]

Are there any surviving Cracker Jack boxes with the card still in them? Hell, are there any Cracker Jack boxes that still exist that would have had a card in them?

[BicycleSpokes]

I have a stupid question: In the name "Net54" what does the "54"refer to?

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

[brianp-beme]

...Can you soak 1933 (R319) Goudey's to remove paper?:confused:

I have not soaked 1933 Goudey's, but I do not believe there should be any issue in doing so (depending upon the glue used), nor do I remember anyone on here mentioning having issues with soaking this issue.

Brian

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Who was the first black ballplayer to integrate the American League and who did he play for?
Hint: It isn't Jackie Robinson.

Well Since Jackie played in the National League he obviously wasn't the answer. I submit that it was Moses Fleetwood Walker for the Toledo Blue Stockings in 1884.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/011/689/f6e.gif

[edjs]

Why are E97 Briggs Black and White called "proofs?"

[Snapolit1]

Larry Doby lived about a mile from me. Same town as Yogi. I heard if you just rang Larrys doorbell he'd come down and sign stuff. Kicking myself I never met the man. Important and badly overlooked.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have a stupid question: In the name "Net54" what does the "54"refer to?

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

goose goosage perhaps....or love of the 1954 Topps because who likes mantle

[1952boyntoncollector]

I dont recall there being 'rookie cards' for T206? Are there any HOF T206 'rookie' cards?

[BicycleSpokes]

Could bring wrong, but I believe the T206 Tris Speaker is his rookie.

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

[pherbener]

Why aren't the 150 series T206 worth more since they are older than the 350 and the 350 more than the 350-460?? It seems like in almost every other case, all else being equal the older cards are more expensive(33 vs. 34 Goudey Gehrig...)

[dougscats]

According to Phil Garry's list
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141603
there are three:

Marquard, hands at side,
Frank Baker,
and Zach Wheat.

I take Phil's list to be the authority regarding h-o-f rookie cards.

[Leon]

I have a stupid question: In the name "Net54" what does the "54"refer to?

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

Not a stupid question. Our old hosting company was Network54.com so the name of our forum "became that" before we did a complete host and s/w update. We kept the "Net54" in the url address because of name recognition. If you click the non sport icon in the far upper right corner of the board you will be taken to the non sports board and that companies hosting site.

[BBB]

How were exhibit cards circulated?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Snapolit1]

Everything you need to know about Exhibits:

http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/interestingexhibitcards

[frankbmd]

Who holds the patent for the "bobbler", the mechanism that makes bobble heads bobble and not wobble?

[Tom S.]

Who holds the patent for the "bobbler", the mechanism that makes bobble heads bobble and not wobble?

I think the guy's name was Robert Bler.

[BBB]

Everything you need to know about Exhibits:



http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/interestingexhibitcards



Succinct and interesting read. Thank you!

[Billy5858]

REALLY dumb Question. Why are T206 Minors worth SMR wise even less than Commons.........Duh because they are Minors???.....Oh wait T205's Minors are worth More than the Commons...........

[steve B]

REALLY dumb Question. Why are T206 Minors worth SMR wise even less than Commons.........Duh because they are Minors???.....Oh wait T205's Minors are worth More than the Commons...........

The T205 minors are a bit tougher than the regular commons, plus they're popular - I think because it's a nice small subset with no really expensive cards.

T206 minor leaguers are pretty much just as common as normal commons, except for the Southern leaguers. At one time, they had higher book values than normal commons, again probably a popularity thing as there's a few subsets by league and team, and only a couple HOFers none of them particularly expensive. Some of them I think are marginally tougher than normal commons.

Steve B

[GoCubsGo32]

Stupid question. T206 set. It says it ran from 1909-1911. Did they just print the same cards from 1909-1911? Did they have different set series each year?

[Tennis13]

There used to be this guy named Orv in Belleair, Fl when I was growing up. I was a Jack's Baseball Shop of Clearwater guy, but Orv had a big following with my Largo buddies. Anyway, Orv was in the newspaper and claimed to have an unopened tobacco can that came from the Honus Wagner T206 time. What ever happened to that can? Was it legit? We are talking like 1996 or 1997-ish on that story. My hunch is Orv was a semi-big player in the industry back then and I would be shocked if some of you didn't know him and the story.

[Snapolit1]

Why hasn't someone taken Burdick's classification system and attempted to modernize and improve it?

[Yoda]

What was the name of Ty Cobb's first organized team and in what league did they play?

[Jantz]

Stupid question. T206 set. It says it ran from 1909-1911. Did they just print the same cards from 1909-1911? Did they have different set series each year?

The T206 set print run was from 1909-1911. To compare it to a modern version without going into a lot of detail, it would look like this.

1909 - Series one - known as the "150" series
1910 - Series two - known as the "350" series
1911 - Series three - known as the "350-460" or to some collectors, the "460" series

Not all the same T206s were printed from series to series. Some players did carry over into other series, while new versions of a player's cards were added into the next year's series. This is why some players have multiple cards (portrait or action version) in the three year print run. Other players were cut from production altogether after the first year.

[Yoda]

Who was best man at John McGraw's wedding?

[frankbmd]

How many women have married more than one Heisman Trophy winner?

[edjs]

My question above regarding E97 Briggs is something I am truly curious about. In most cases, the black and whites have a few copies of the same player, and I can't see any change from one to the other, like you would expect with proofs. They look to me like black and white versions of E97s with a blank back, not "proofs." Are they really proofs, and if not, why are they called proofs?

[brianp-beme]

My question above regarding E97 Briggs is something I am truly curious about. In most cases, the black and whites have a few copies of the same player, and I can't see any change from one to the other, like you would expect with proofs. They look to me like black and white versions of E97s with a blank back, not "proofs." Are they really proofs, and if not, why are they called proofs?

I think the black and white E97's were identified long ago as proofs because they were a mystery issue with obvious ties to the E97's. I imagine they were seldom seen in the hobby, so multiple copies of the same player in a sense didn't seem to exist. You have to remember before the internet information just didn't percolate to the surface as quickly as it does now. The square E254 Colgan 'proofs' have also long been labelled as such, and they share the same images as the E254 set and have blank backs, thus sharing these common denominators with the E97's.

So if nothing else, tradition holds strong. I have been trying to debunk the 'generic' label for the majority of the cards in the E91 sets for years, but sometimes old labels have a way of clinging, just like a joey inside Momma Kangaroo's pouch.

Brian

[swarmee]

Why hasn't someone taken Burdick's classification system and attempted to modernize and improve it?

The Brits have tried with something called the World Tobacco Index. Beckett and COMC are in the midst of creating large databases of cards electronically.

[tbob]

What do you type in the search box to keep any T206s from coming up on ebay? I'm done with the set (minus the Big 4) and I'd like to not have to scroll through a zillion t206s constantly.
How do you keep a card seller who puts his entire inventory on ebay, every week, every year, with prices so high that no one buys them, from showing up in your search? What do you type in?

Thanks, I know this was covered in the past but I missed it.

[edjs]

What do you type in the search box to keep any T206s from coming up on ebay? I'm done with the set (minus the Big 4) and I'd like to not have to scroll through a zillion t206s constantly.
How do you keep a card seller who puts his entire inventory on ebay, every week, every year, with prices so high that no one buys them, from showing up in your search? What do you type in?

Thanks, I know this was covered in the past but I missed it.

type in what you want to search for, then a space, then "-t206" or the minus sign and what ever you don't want to search for.

Brian, that is a great answer. At least I know they aren't really proofs, just called that. I can live with that.

[CardboardCollector]

Great thread. Ok, I think I have figured out all the BST abbreviations correctly identified.

FS - for sale
WTB - wanted to buy
WTTF - wanted to trade for
FT - for trade

Are there others that I am missing?

[bxb]

OK, dumb question for the day (posed to me many times over the years by non-believers):

Why do grown men collect baseball cards?

[MikeGarcia]

OK, dumb question for the day (posed to me many times over the years by non-believers):

Why do grown men collect baseball cards?

.....

...they're easier to hide from the wife , unlike my 1950's run of Playboy.

...

[ValKehl]

OK, dumb question for the day (posed to me many times over the years by non-believers):

Why do grown men collect baseball cards?

Because we grown men:
- Love the game basebal,
- Have the "collector" gene in our body,
- Enjoy reliving the good times of our youth, and
- Need/want a healthy escape from the trials & tribulations of everyday life.

[PowderedH2O]

What is the exact reasoning behind something being considered an XRC (or even an unofficial RC) vs a regular RC? I understand that a regional issue might not qualify, but I also see national issues that don't qualify as well. For example, Pee Wee Reese is in both the 1941 Play Ball and 1941 Double Play sets. The Play Ball is considered the only "official" rookie, while the Double Play is an "extra" rookie card. As far as I know, both sets were nationally available, and the Double Play set is a bigger set by number of cards.

[TNP777]

What do you type in the search box to keep any T206s from coming up on ebay? I'm done with the set (minus the Big 4) and I'd like to not have to scroll through a zillion t206s constantly.
How do you keep a card seller who puts his entire inventory on ebay, every week, every year, with prices so high that no one buys them, from showing up in your search? What do you type in?

Thanks, I know this was covered in the past but I missed it.

type in what you want to search for, then a space, then "-t206" or the minus sign and what ever you don't want to search for.
You can take that a step further with parentheses. For example, enter -(t206,t-206,"t 206"). That way you can filter out the guys who use the dash or for some weird reason put a space between the t and 206.

[Stampsfan]

OK, dumb question for the day (posed to me many times over the years by non-believers):

Why do grown men collect baseball cards?

Because it's cheaper and more enjoyable than collecting wives.

[tbob]

type in what you want to search for, then a space, then "-t206" or the minus sign and what ever you don't want to search for.
.

Thanks Ed, so easy and yet effective.

tbob

[trdcrdkid]

Great thread. Ok, I think I have figured out all the BST abbreviations correctly identified.

FS - for sale
WTB - wanted to buy
WTTF - wanted to trade for
FT - for trade

Are there others that I am missing?

LF = looking for

[brianp-beme]

WTF? = What The Fadoodle?

Brian