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sflayank
01-28-2016, 08:11 AM
the names of all consignors/dealers their shill bidders names and the injured party names have been revealed in court documents from mastro auctions 2007 and 2008
what everyone probably already knows or believes most of your big name dealers are revealed as the biggest consignors and every item they consigned they shilled
while many items were shilled by mastro auctions more items were actually shilled by many big name dealers having their wives partners friends bid up their items including many who appear on this board
the list also includes the buyer of the lot and how much the shill bidding cost him
gotta love the peoples right to open court documents
its a shame only 2 years worth are available or lawsuits would be flying out against almost every dealer
i can see other auction houses running to burn all their records

The LIST IS in POST 51


.

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 08:14 AM
WOW...not totally surprising...but definitely SHOCKING...can we see this list?

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 08:16 AM
WOW...not totally surprising...but definitely SHOCKING...can we see this list?

Please

sflayank
01-28-2016, 08:17 AM
its a 272 page document 103 pages of which list all the auction items
one thing cool is you can see what some famous collectors bought and how much they got screwed by

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 08:18 AM
please show us...link please?

Buythatcard
01-28-2016, 08:21 AM
I don't want to see who got screwed but I do want to see who screwed us over.

e107collector
01-28-2016, 08:22 AM
Larry, as others have already posted, how can we see this list. Can you post a link to the documents?

This should be interesting!!

Tony

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 08:22 AM
I don't want to see who got screwed but I do want to see who screwed us over.

That's what I want to see!! Roll it out!

Leon
01-28-2016, 08:22 AM
I have seen it and it ain't pretty. It's a virtual who's who of a lot of the hobby. I got shilled but already had an idea of that.

It is a 1mb pdf file. Whomever wants to see it send me an email.

The LIST is IN POST 51

sflayank
01-28-2016, 08:31 AM
in looking more thoroughly mastro probably appears on 2/3 of the lots listed and other dealers on the other 1/3
i dont know how to put this monster file on here
i have nothing against any of these people but here are some examples
irv lerner. every item he ever consigned bid on by jenifer stein
joe esposito every item bid on by his best bud caparelli
kent fedderman
ken goldin
mark irodenko
and on and on it goes same bidder on all their consignments
some names of bidders on this board are in the screwed column and how much they got screwed for
file:///C:/Users/sflayank/Downloads/doug%20allen%20(2).pdf

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 08:32 AM
can't wait to hear how some of these guys try to talk their ways out of this?

begsu1013
01-28-2016, 08:34 AM
pm request recanted.

will get my favor elsewhere.

1952boyntoncollector
01-28-2016, 08:42 AM
I know I not on either list unless on the gotten screwed list......I got a feeling a lot of the illegal shillers think a cycle is better than hitting 2 homers and 2 doubles..


Lets compile a NET54 list of shiller posters..

sflayank
01-28-2016, 08:42 AM
looks like hal steinbrenner got screwed out of the most money in 2007 2008
but if youd like to know what he collects you can look

Buythatcard
01-28-2016, 08:43 AM
I have a feeling that this thread is going to be one of the most visited threads of all time.:eek:

ksabet
01-28-2016, 08:45 AM
Wow I have a feeling my day is about to get a little sadder

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 08:52 AM
Wow I have a feeling my day is about to get a little sadder

Better sad and enlightened !

gnaz01
01-28-2016, 08:56 AM
I know I'm on the "got screwed" list and would love to see the list as well.

tribefan
01-28-2016, 09:04 AM
Yes, please share a link if possible.

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 09:11 AM
well I just skimmed the document...and WOW...as I've been saying for years...the hobby is quite dirty.

Many, many major players named on this list...both shillers and victims.

I'm wondering if certain people's departures from the hobby are related to such activities/behavior...it has to be?

Poor Hank Steinbrenner appears to be one of the biggest victims!

sflayank
01-28-2016, 09:13 AM
please send all list requests to leon
thanks

begsu1013
01-28-2016, 09:13 AM
quite.

111gecko
01-28-2016, 09:14 AM
Got it from Leon..just went through it.

Now I need shower to remove this filth.

Sickening.

bn2cardz
01-28-2016, 09:14 AM
in looking more thoroughly mastro probably appears on 2/3 of the lots listed and other dealers on the other 1/3
i dont know how to put this monster file on here
i have nothing against any of these people but here are some examples
irv lerner. every item he ever consigned bid on by jenifer stein
joe esposito every item bid on by his best bud caparelli
kent fedderman
ken goldin
mark irodenko
and on and on it goes same bidder on all their consignments
some names of bidders on this board are in the screwed column and how much they got screwed for
file:///C:/Users/sflayank/Downloads/doug%20allen%20(2).pdf

I have not won an item from Goldin auctions, but was watching stuff in the current auction. Does anyone think that his name being on the list will have negative results this weekend?

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 09:16 AM
id love to hear from good old hal lewis!!!!

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 09:30 AM
who is "historical collectibles?"

xplainer
01-28-2016, 09:55 AM
Is Probstein123 on the list?
Or does this cover auction houses?

Rich Klein
01-28-2016, 10:12 AM
From what I gleamed from Larry's post to begin this thread -- this only covers Mastro's auctions over a limited period of time.

This does not include EBay (The Probstein q) or any other auction house past or present.

Rich

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 10:19 AM
From what I gleamed from Larry's post to begin this thread -- this only covers Mastro's auctions over a limited period of time.

This does not include EBay (The Probstein q) or any other auction house past or present.

Rich

correct

h2oya311
01-28-2016, 10:48 AM
only auctions from 2007-2009?? You don't think this happened long before and long after? In my mind, this list is very incomplete.

Also, do you think that all consignors that were identified knew that their consignments were being shilled? Some obviously knew, but I see a few folks on the list that appeared only a few times that may have had their lots shilled unknowingly (due to max bids by winning bidder, etc.). Is this possible?

As someone mentioned, Ken Goldin is on the list as well as a few Net54 members.

tiger8mush
01-28-2016, 11:04 AM
As someone mentioned, Ken Goldin is on the list as well as a few Net54 members.

names!!??!! :)

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 11:05 AM
only auctions from 2007-2009?? You don't think this happened long before and long after? In my mind, this list is very incomplete.

Also, do you think that all consignors that were identified knew that their consignments were being shilled? Some obviously knew, but I see a few folks on the list that appeared only a few times that may have had their lots shilled unknowingly (due to max bids by winning bidder, etc.). Is this possible?

As someone mentioned, Ken Goldin is on the list as well as a few Net54 members.

Huh?? Who shills other people's auctions??? Apparently this list is of persons who's lots were shilled, not by Mastro , but by the consignors or their conspirators. There is no one " unknowingly" being shilled. I hope the dominos fall fast and hard.

Joshchisox08
01-28-2016, 11:11 AM
Is Probstein123 on the list?
Or does this cover auction houses?

Probstein123............. How about PWCC?

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 11:12 AM
did u not read previous replies...this does not include ebay.

Joshchisox08
01-28-2016, 11:12 AM
did u not read previous replies...this does not include ebay.

I was replying to Jimmy.... Sorry your Majesty.

xplainer
01-28-2016, 11:19 AM
I got you Josh.:D

ibuysportsephemera
01-28-2016, 11:34 AM
It appears that some of the consignors who knowingly shilled their own auctions were actually shilled as buyers in other auction lots. If this is the case, there is a certain amount of irony as well as stupidity on their part.

Just my 2¢, but I wasn't surprised at the names of the biggest offenders.

The list also highlights how easy it is to be shilled in an online auction.

Jeff

packs
01-28-2016, 11:47 AM
Would love to hear from some that appear on the list.

wolf441
01-28-2016, 11:47 AM
Huh?? Who shills other people's auctions???

+1. Isn't that simply called "bidding"? :D

midmo
01-28-2016, 11:51 AM
Isn't it possible for a consignor to be shilled unknowingly? If the auction house gets a percentage it's in their interest to raise all sale prices.

h2oya311
01-28-2016, 11:51 AM
Huh?? Who shills other people's auctions??? Apparently this list is of persons who's lots were shilled, not by Mastro , but by the consignors or their conspirators. There is no one " unknowingly" being shilled. I hope the dominos fall fast and hard.

Mastro and his cronies were shilling all sorts of items (just look at the list if you haven't already). Again, perhaps there was a max-bid left by the eventual winner and Mastro helped bump the item up to that price. Remember, he's getting 15-20% of the hammer price. So yes, it is plausible that an auction was shilled without the consignor knowing. But perhaps I'm too naive.

Buythatcard
01-28-2016, 11:54 AM
Can someone please share the list?

rhettyeakley
01-28-2016, 12:03 PM
Pretty eye opening, saw my name as a winning bidder. Surprising just how wide-spread it all was, how did they think nobody would find out when done at this level? Disturbing to say the least.

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 12:04 PM
Mastro and his cronies were shilling all sorts of items (just look at the list if you haven't already). Again, perhaps there was a max-bid left by the eventual winner and Mastro helped bump the item up to that price. Remember, he's getting 15-20% of the hammer price. So yes, it is plausible that an auction was shilled without the consignor knowing. But perhaps I'm too naive.

Read OP. It reports lots shilled by consignors , NOT the auction house itself.

trobba
01-28-2016, 12:06 PM
How would someone shilling for a friend (or themselves) know how high to go without purchasing the item?

I get how Mastro could be "protected" in their shill bidding because they could conceivably use someone's max bid against them.

How would I know if a $10,000 item was shilled up to $15,000 that someone would bid one more than me? Wouldn't there be ample times when I would get stuck, as the shill bidder, with the item?

Or were most shill bids up to a reasonable price and not way above market prices?

Rob

savedfrommyspokes
01-28-2016, 12:10 PM
How would someone shilling for a friend know how high to go without purchasing the item?

I get how Mastro could be "protected" in their shill bidding because they could conceivably use someone's max bid against them.

How would I know if a $10,000 item was shilled up to $15,000 that someone would bid one more than me? Wouldn't there be ample times when I would get stuck, as the shill bidder, with the item?

Or were most shill bids up to a reasonable price and not way above market prices?

Rob

There were many instances on this list where a name that was listed as the "winning bidder" was also listed as the "shill bidder" for the same item.

conor912
01-28-2016, 12:21 PM
+1. Isn't that simply called "bidding"? :D

I think shilling other peoples' auctions happens more than you think, though it is hidden under the guise of "Protecting one's investment".

Say you pay $5k for a card today, then next week another one in the same grade comes up for auction. Nearing the end of the auction it looks like it's going to sell for $3500, so you bid it up with no intention of winning it to give the illusion of it maintaining the market value that you set for it with your $5k purchase.

Bicem
01-28-2016, 12:33 PM
Dave and Steve Forman sure do appear a lot as both consignors and shill bidders.

Jeff Pr|zner

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 12:35 PM
i see peter S was shilled for a substantial sum on the list. I kinda remember him being reluctant to write a letter to the judge?

Buythatcard
01-28-2016, 12:39 PM
Just saw the list and it was disturbing. Was shocked (not really) to see that someone shilled me. You hear about it all the time but when you see the actual proof, it makes you sick.

I don't know many of the names but will hope to find out whether any of these consignors or shillers are associated with any active Auction House today. It will be a perfect time to remove them from my list of AH's that I bid on.

This list is only a drop in the bucket.

Who can you trust in this world?

bn2cardz
01-28-2016, 12:41 PM
I saved a shareable version to my google drive. It should be accessible through the following link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Sh1S-APDWEa25KNHItYTR5dkFnR1NhTk1Pbm41RTVsbGVB/view?usp=sharing

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 12:44 PM
Just saw the list and it was disturbing. Was shocked (not really) to see that someone shilled me. You hear about it all the time but when you see the actual proof, it makes you sick.

I don't know many of the names but will hope to find out whether any of these consignors or shillers are associated with any active Auction House today. It will be a perfect time to remove them from my list of AH's that I bid on.

This list is only a drop in the bucket.

Who can you trust in this world?

1+ I would like to know that too

martyp
01-28-2016, 12:47 PM
Just saw the list and it was disturbing. Was shocked (not really) to see that someone shilled me. You hear about it all the time but when you see the actual proof, it makes you sick.

I don't know many of the names but will hope to find out whether any of these consignors or shillers are associated with any active Auction House today. It will be a perfect time to remove them from my list of AH's that I bid on.

This list is only a drop in the bucket.

Who can you trust in this world?
If you go through the list, you will see former Mastro employees who are currently (as far as I know) still employed with other auction houses.

AGuinness
01-28-2016, 12:51 PM
I saved a shareable version to my google drive. It should be accessible through the following link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Sh1S-APDWEa25KNHItYTR5dkFnR1NhTk1Pbm41RTVsbGVB/view?usp=sharing

Nicely done and thank you. That was the simplest and best solution to share the document.

Econteachert205
01-28-2016, 12:52 PM
I saved a shareable version to my google drive. It should be accessible through the following link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Sh1S-APDWEa25KNHItYTR5dkFnR1NhTk1Pbm41RTVsbGVB/view?usp=sharing



this works great, was very interesting... anyone else remember all of TJ Schwartz's holier than thou articles about the hobby? lol

wolf441
01-28-2016, 12:52 PM
I think shilling other peoples' auctions happens more than you think, though it is hidden under the guise of "Protecting one's investment".

Say you pay $5k for a card today, then next week another one in the same grade comes up for auction. Nearing the end of the auction it looks like it's going to sell for $3500, so you bid it up with no intention of winning it to give the illusion of it maintaining the market value that you set for it with your $5k purchase.

I guess so, but how would you know that you weren't going to win the auction that you had no intention of winning? You would have to know what the max bid was, and that's the main case against Maestro and his cronies...

T206Collector
01-28-2016, 12:53 PM
I would like to see a summary of:

1. Current Grading Company Officials
2. Current Autograph Authentication Company Officials
3. Current Auction House Officials
4. Current Dealers/eBay Sellers

khkco4bls
01-28-2016, 12:56 PM
There are alot of scumbags in this world..

RichardSimon
01-28-2016, 12:57 PM
Who is Hal Lewis???:confused:

chipperhank44
01-28-2016, 12:57 PM
How would someone shilling for a friend (or themselves) know how high to go without purchasing the item?

I get how Mastro could be "protected" in their shill bidding because they could conceivably use someone's max bid against them.

How would I know if a $10,000 item was shilled up to $15,000 that someone would bid one more than me? Wouldn't there be ample times when I would get stuck, as the shill bidder, with the item?

Or were most shill bids up to a reasonable price and not way above market prices?

Rob

There were many instances on this list where a name that was listed as the "winning bidder" was also listed as the "shill bidder" for the same item.

You accomplish this via an agreement with the auction house. Other people shill the card up to the desired price hoping someone will get caught up in the bidding and overpay. If nobody overpays, the shill bidder goes down as the winning bidder, but card and money do not change hands. Looks legit from a distance, AH has increased profits, consignor has increased profits, everybody wins......except the winning bidder.

For the consignor, the worst case scenario is that nobody overpays, he keeps his card, and the most recent sale of his card is nice and inflated when he consigns it again 4 months down the road.

Worst case for the auction house, they don't get a hefty buyer's premium but they can now advertise a NEW RECORD PRICE for whatever card they sold in a press release and on their website.

ksabet
01-28-2016, 12:58 PM
I'm sorry but I can't help but to find it humorous that some of the most egregious shillers were also victims.

conor912
01-28-2016, 12:59 PM
I guess so, but how would you know that you weren't going to win the auction that you had no intention of winning? You would have to know what the max bid was, and that's the main case against Maestro and his cronies...

I was more speaking in general, and not necessarily related to Mastro. And yes, you wouldn't know the max bid....that's why sometimes shillers do win unintentionally.

Forever Young
01-28-2016, 01:01 PM
I'm sorry but I can't help but to find it humorous that some of the most egregious shillers were also victims.

Quickly glancing... is it that or is it just that they won an item back or helped another consigner win an items back. I'll scratch yours if you scratch mine sort of deal.

bobbyw8469
01-28-2016, 01:02 PM
Sickening.....but not surprising. Thank you for sharing the list. Some very disgusting stuff.

ksabet
01-28-2016, 01:05 PM
Quickly glancing... is it that or is it just that they won an item back or helped another consigner win an items back. I'll scratch yours if you scratch mine sort of deal.

Not sure, there are different line items for winners and "victims" so I am assuming this was determined.

Buythatcard
01-28-2016, 01:07 PM
I think we should start creating our list.

If the shiller or consignor is with a current AH, then they will be part of this list.

T206Collector
01-28-2016, 01:07 PM
Here's an interesting one:

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=70892

Apparently this was the only Lionel Carter auction that was shilled. I very much doubt that Carter himself was involved in the shilling - I doubt this would have been his one auction to choose to shill. I would guess, instead, that Mastro had knowledge of the highest bid and then did this in order to increase the premium.

gnaz01
01-28-2016, 01:07 PM
anyone else remember all of TJ Schwartz's holier than thou articles about the hobby? lol

Yup, used to be the first thing I turned to in Tuff Stuff

scotgreb
01-28-2016, 01:13 PM
I noticed a couple from PSA's "Board of Experts" in the shill bidder column. One in particular is seen many times.

Leon
01-28-2016, 01:17 PM
This list was NOT put out by the govt. Doug Allen entered this document the way it is into the proceedings. I believe This list was carefully gone over and researched by the govt before it was made. But then again what do I know?

Also, NOW is the time to write a letter to the judge if you are concerned. Sentencing is in 2 weeks......

Judge Ronald A. Guzman
219 South Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60604


Case No. 12 CR 567-2 United States Vs Doug Allen

I am contemplating it...

.

pariah1107
01-28-2016, 01:17 PM
Damn, that is a L-O-N-G list!

jmb
01-28-2016, 01:18 PM
Sure am glad I haven't bid in any auctions. I think I will appreciate a good ebay Buy It Now auction more from now on.

RichardSimon
01-28-2016, 01:23 PM
Damn, that is a L-O-N-G list!

I am bleary eyed and my head is dizzy from all the nay shaking it is doing.

btcarfagno
01-28-2016, 01:24 PM
Darryl Abramowitz?

Tom C

glchen
01-28-2016, 01:24 PM
Seriously, out of control. I was probably naïve, but there were a lot more than I expected there. I don't even know how this is fixed in any auctions today even if the auction house does not own the auction software. Many of the shillers seemed to be friends and relatives of the consignor. So even with today's auctions, they would just have different accounts and would not be caught. Basically, the auction house (or ebay) is not directly involved in the shilling activities. However, they turn a blind eye to monitoring it.

bbcard1
01-28-2016, 01:28 PM
During that time period I was busy keeping my business afloat and didn't bid in any auctions. Fortunately, if floated. That said, it has to be disheartening for those who were gouged.

TNP777
01-28-2016, 01:30 PM
Makes me glad I collect on the low end of the hobby. If I chased high dollar-value cards and my name appeared as a victim, or if my account had been used to place a shill bid, I'd be furious.

iwantitiwinit
01-28-2016, 01:31 PM
Totally disgusting.

bobbyw8469
01-28-2016, 01:35 PM
or if my account had been used to place a shill bid

Uhh....I think you would know if you shill bid or not. Besides...you've done a far worse thing.

TNP777
01-28-2016, 01:37 PM
Uhh....I think you would know if you shill bid or not.Well, of course I would. However, there seems to be some belief that people inside Mastro used bidder accounts without their knowledge - perhaps inactive accounts?

bcornell
01-28-2016, 01:39 PM
Per Andrew Moore, "The Government only identified a 'victim' for 347 of the 2,463 auctions". It's pretty obvious that the 2000+ auctions that don't list victims actually do have them. I was somewhat sympathetic to Doug Allen's plea not to do 57 months in jail, but I'm over that now.

Another thing to remember (and there's a lot to take in here) is that this list is just for those years where Mastro didn't destroy their records. This list would likely be much, much longer if they had that info.

Bill

Joshchisox08
01-28-2016, 01:39 PM
Can someone please share the list?

Yeah I'm wondering why this appears to be secretive on this board. :confused:

Exhibitman
01-28-2016, 01:40 PM
There are some entries that are clearly instances where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid by running up the total: Peter Spaeth's name shows up as a shill bidder and winner on one entry [August 2007]. Chad Dreier is shown on one as well [see June 2007]. I don't believe either of those guys had anything to do with Mastro's scheme; I do believe both were cheated as a result.

TNP777
01-28-2016, 01:41 PM
Yeah I'm wondering why this appears to be secretive on this board. :confused:
Post #51 in this thread

http://net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1496780&postcount=51

Joshchisox08
01-28-2016, 01:43 PM
Post #51 in this thread

http://net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1496780&postcount=51

Thanks !

paul
01-28-2016, 01:44 PM
I naively thought that only the big boys bidding on high value lots got shilled. I got shilled for $200. Sad.

Econteachert205
01-28-2016, 01:47 PM
any thoughts as to whether this could contribute to price deflation in the market? There has been widespread false price discovery here. Maybe it's old enough not to matter to prices now.

z28jd
01-28-2016, 01:48 PM
Who is Hal Lewis???:confused:

Used to be a regular on the board, who had an impressive collection, then sold it all off. If you search his name and his shill bidders name, you'll see they share the same profession in the same town

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 01:49 PM
Used to be a regular on the board, who had an impressive collection, then sold it all off. If you search his name and his shill bidders name, you'll see they share the same profession in the same town

And...I believe he was a high fallutin lawyer of some sort!

Cat
01-28-2016, 01:51 PM
I was shilled once for $379 + vig (amounts seem to be only the hammer price) but apparently I wasn't a "victim."

The Nasty Nati
01-28-2016, 01:52 PM
I would love if Keith Olbermann spoke up about this. He was the victim on quite a lot of the top dollar items.

prestigecollectibles
01-28-2016, 01:57 PM
I was shill bid on the T206 Wagner I won for $160,000 for a client of mine in their 2007 live auction. Wow, what a mess this is.

prestigecollectibles
01-28-2016, 01:57 PM
I would love if Keith Olbermann spoke up about this. He was the victim on quite a lot of the top dollar items.

I just emailed this to Olbermann.

paul
01-28-2016, 01:58 PM
I wasn't a "victim" either, but I was shilled. I wonder what that means.

Joshchisox08
01-28-2016, 02:04 PM
any thoughts as to whether this could contribute to price deflation in the market? There has been widespread false price discovery here. Maybe it's old enough not to matter to prices now.

Something I was wondering and hoping for.

Shoebox
01-28-2016, 02:16 PM
For those inquiring about why no victim is listed in the document for many of the entries. I found this in the document which seems to explain the reasoning.

"It is my understanding that for the remaining auctions in which the Government calculated a loss but did not identify a “victim,” the identified shill bidder either placed the
winning bid or the “shill bid(s)” did not immediately precede the winning bid. As such, it is my opinion the actual loss on these auctions is $0 because the “shill bid(s)” did not have a direct financial impact on the winning bid."

So essentially if a shill bid was used to bump the lot from $500 to $600 and then legitimate bids take the item up to $1000. The government is listing a "loss" of $100 on the item but not identifying a victim because the 2nd high bid is judged to be legitimate. Based on that then it would seem that most of the shill bids were placed to push items up to a hidden reserve early on in the bidding rather than attempting to max out the final sale price with late shill bids. Not defending or attempting to excuse any of this behavior, but I thought that context was important to note. I never bid or consigned in a Maestro auction so not directly affected by this but it is very discouraging and makes me question a lot.

iwantitiwinit
01-28-2016, 02:23 PM
any thoughts as to whether this could contribute to price deflation in the market? There has been widespread false price discovery here. Maybe it's old enough not to matter to prices now.

I would think there has been false price discovery without a doubt, however, I'm not so sure it will contribute to price deflation.

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 02:46 PM
There are some entries that are clearly instances where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid by running up the total: Peter Spaeth's name shows up as a shill bidder and winner on one entry [August 2007]. Chad Dreier is shown on one as well [see June 2007]. I don't believe either of those guys had anything to do with Mastro's scheme; I do believe both were cheated as a result.

Could you please walk me through how you came to the conclusion that this is "clearly and instance where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid"? What do you base that on? I don't see the logic....at all .

h2oya311
01-28-2016, 02:56 PM
Here's an interesting one:

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=70892

Apparently this was the only Lionel Carter auction that was shilled. I very much doubt that Carter himself was involved in the shilling - I doubt this would have been his one auction to choose to shill. I would guess, instead, that Mastro had knowledge of the highest bid and then did this in order to increase the premium.

thank you...my point exactly. Some consignors may not have known about their items being shilled. But I'm sure most on this list did.

And how did Mastro determine which auctions got shilled? Did he base it on the bidding activity, relationships, town in which the consignor and shiller lived? Or side agreements he made with each of these individual consignors/shill bidders? I'm sure there are other folks out there who have made arrangements with friends/family to shill bid an auction without Mastro knowing about it. So, this begs the question, "is this list complete?" (for 2007-2009 Mastro auctions).

And yes, the inflated price phenomenon is certainly an issue here that can't be ignored...especially with price transparency sites like VCP.

Shoeless Moe
01-28-2016, 02:59 PM
Leon, any chance you can run the schiller list up against your members list (past & present, with user name too), would like to see and possible hear from them, although like cockroaches you flip the light switch on and I'd bet those people arn't long for here.

And if someone can post all the schillers and the current auction houses they work for I believe that could be enlightening.

ALR-bishop
01-28-2016, 03:04 PM
Is this classification unique to the legal community or can people in other occupations aspire to it ?

Leon
01-28-2016, 03:11 PM
I don't know a way to cross reference with that data. The data I have isn't very easy to work with, generally speaking.

Leon, any chance you can run the schiller list up against your members list (past & present, with user name too), would like to see and possible hear from them, although like cockroaches you flip the light switch on and I'd bet those people arn't long for here.

And if someone can post all the schillers and the current auction houses they work for I believe that could be enlightening.

bnorth
01-28-2016, 03:15 PM
I personally can't wait to see what those accused of shill bidding do? Will they use the most popular method of denial, change blame/subject, and name calling. I love how guilty people start of denying anything happened, then try to change the subject or try to switch the blame to others and after those 2 don't work they revert to name calling. I can't remember this method actually working for anyone.

The most effective is to come out fast and be honest, well as honest as one can be when caught being a less than stellar human being. From all the scandals in sports you would think the criminals would figure out the people that admit to their mistakes right away are looked at much better in the history books.

Brian Van Horn
01-28-2016, 03:36 PM
I saved a shareable version to my google drive. It should be accessible through the following link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Sh1S-APDWEa25KNHItYTR5dkFnR1NhTk1Pbm41RTVsbGVB/view?usp=sharing

Andy,

A BIG Thank YOU!

MULLINS5
01-28-2016, 03:48 PM
Is there a way to find what was auctioned off? I am particularly interested in April 2007 Lot # 1512. Thank you in advance.

btcarfagno
01-28-2016, 03:56 PM
Is there a way to find what was auctioned off? I am particularly interested in April 2007 Lot # 1512. Thank you in advance.

That was Ted Williams' game used bat for home run #400.

Tom C

Snapolit1
01-28-2016, 04:05 PM
How do you prove something was a shill bid? Can't the suspected shill bidder -- even if a competitor auctioneer or dealer -- just come back and say "Well of course we all follow each others' auctions and try to steal things at low prices if we can. I would have taken that Mantle card at $10,000 happily. . . . I suspected others would come along and far outbid me but crazier things have happened . . . ."

mrmopar
01-28-2016, 04:06 PM
I guess this might be one of those examples of "First World Problems" that are often joked about. Not a joking matter here, of course, but I am nowhere near having this problem. I have never bid on an auction that wasn't on ebay and I am definitely a low end collector compared to just about any item shown on this report. It is likely that via ebay, I have been a victim of paying more than I would have w/o a shill bidder. I snipe just about everything and have for years now. Although that will help protect you from those pesky "nibblers" that bid up your proxy bids until you are maxed or they just slightly outbid you, you still pay more regardless if someone tosses out a shill bid anywhere within the listing timeframe. Kind of like those victimless line items from the report.

bn2cardz
01-28-2016, 04:10 PM
Is there a way to find what was auctioned off? I am particularly interested in April 2007 Lot # 1512. Thank you in advance.

You would need an account with Legendary Auctions. Then go to history where you can search specific Auctions.

Here is the link for this specific item:
http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=70657

Shoeless Moe
01-28-2016, 04:10 PM
These are the names that appear in the Shill Bidder column of that list only, this does not includes the Consignors just to clarify


Alex Sawchak
Alex Sawchak and William Vangelos
Andrew Caparelli
Andrew Filipowski
Andrew Filipowski and Mastro Auctions
Andy Tuttle
Barbara Simmons
Bill Boehm
Bill Mastro
Bill Mastro and Andrew Filipowski
Bill Mastro and Jeffrey Marren
Bill Mastro and John Reznikoff
Bill Mastro and Millard Fisher
Bill Mastro, Mastro Auctions
Bill Mastro, Rich Mantia, Mastro Auctions
Bill Mastro, Ryan Friedman
Brian Bigelow
Brian Marren
Cardboard Coll.
Cardboard Collectibles
Chad Dreier
Chad Vandemark
Chris Porter
Chris Porter and Kirk Wagonlander
Cliff Kakelik and Mastro Auctions
Cliff Kekelik
Craig Helling
Cynthia Graves
Darryl Abramowitz
Dave Forman
Dennis Beechy
Derek Ihnat
Diroberto, Helling
Diroberto, Marronpot
Doug Allen
Doug Allen and Andrew Filipowski
Doug Allen and Bill Mastro
Doug Allen and John Reznikoff
Doug Allen and Mastro Auctions
Doug Allen, Reznikoff Mastro
Edward (Josh) Petrie
Eric Grigson
Frank Diroberto
Frank Diroberto, Marronpot
Frank Simmons
Greg Floyd
Helling
Henny Steinbach
Irv Lerner
Irv Lerner CPA
Irv Lerner, CPA
Jay Dyer
Jay Dyer and Shane Mooney
Jay Dyer, Mastro Auctions, Inc, and Shane Mooney
Jeff Marren
Jeff Marren and John Reznikoff
Jeff Marren and Mastro Auctions
Jeffrey Marren
Jennifer Stein
Jerry Zuckerman
Jerry Zuckerman and Ralph Deluca
Jerry Zuckerman, Joe Demattio
Jerry Zuckerman, Ralph Deluca
Joe Demattio
John Reznikoff
John Reznikoff and Mastro Auctions
John Reznikoff
Jorge Marce
Jorge Marce and Andrew Filipowski
Jorge Merce
Kevin Keating
Kevin Keating and Bill Mastro
Kevin Keating and Doug Allen
Kevin Keating, and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Kevin Keating, John Reznikoff
Kevin Keating, Reznikoff / Mastro
Kevin Keating, Rich Mantia
Kevin Struss
Kirk Wagonlander
Kirk Wagonlander and Mastro Auctions
Kirk Wagonlander, Mastro Auctions
Kristin Straub
Les Perline
Les Perline and Henny Steinbach
Les Perline and John Reznikoff
Les Perline
Les Perlne
Les Perlne and Mastro Auctions
Loraine Cordes
Marc Held
Mark Irodenko
Mark Irodenko and Andew filipowski
Mark Irodenko and Andrew Filipowski
Mark Theotikos
Mastro Auctions
Mastro Auctions and Doug Allen
Mastro Auctions and Shane Mooney
Mastro Auctions Inc.
Mastro Auctions, Inc and Steve Lucas
Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Mastro Auctions, Inc. and Bill Mastro
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and John Reznikoff
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and Mark Irodenko
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and Ryan Friedman
Mastro Auctions, Ryan Friedman
Mike Mallon
Mike Mallon and Dennis Beechy
Mitch Rosen
Nicholas Dawes
Nick Dawes
Nick Dawes and Mastro Auctions
Nick Dawes, Mastro Auctions
Nick Dawes, Rich Mantia
Niel Feltz
Peter Calderon
Peter Calderon, and Chris Porter
Peter Calderon, Bill Mastro
Peter Garcia
Peter Spaeth
Ralph Deluca
Ralph Deluca and Jerry Zuckerman
Ralph Deluca, Jerry Zuckerman and Joe Demattio
Random Treasures
Ray Canales
Reznikoff/Mastro
Reznikoff/Mastro John Reznikoff
Rich Mantia
Rich Mantia and Mastro Auctions
Rich Mantia, Kevin Keating and Bill Boehm
Richard Consola
Rob Hughes
Robert Bordan
Rocco Loconte
Roco Loconte
Roco Loconte and Nick Dawes
Ron Oser
Russ Pardy
Russ Purdy
Russ Purdy and Kevin Keating
Ryan Friedman
Shane Mooney
Shane Mooney, Jay Dyer, and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Stephen Spector
Steve Forman
Steve Lucas
Steve Lucas and Brian Bigelow
Steve Lucas and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Steven Turner
Teale Laney
Tim Frystak
Tim Frystak, Brian Marren, Chris Porter
TJ Schwartz
Whit Rutledge
William Schonsheck
William Vangelos
Zach Rullo

danmckee
01-28-2016, 04:12 PM
Who is Cardboard Collectibles?

It shows them shilling me

Page 81 lot 1856 I am shown as being shilled on a 3rd series Wacky Package stickers full box Graded by GAI. Though I do collect wacky packages, I never won that item.

Too funny

sago
01-28-2016, 04:24 PM
Lerner and Reznikoff; I am not that surprised. Kevin Keating and Pete Calderon; definitely shockers.

D@v1d D@v1s

danmckee
01-28-2016, 04:33 PM
Lerner and Reznikoff; I am not that surprised. Kevin Keating and Pete Calderon; definitely shockers.

D@v1d D@v1s

Yup.... Major Bummer!

bcornell
01-28-2016, 04:39 PM
Lerner and Reznikoff; I am not that surprised. Kevin Keating and Pete Calderon; definitely shockers.

D@v1d D@v1s

There are several people with connections to the auction house who are listed as shill bidders. That includes their Silk Road investor (Filipowski), their receptionist (Henny Steinbach), and their IT guy (Boehm), among others. Mastro was just 'spreading the wealth' there, I suspect, using other people's accounts to do his bidding (pun intended). Just because Peter C's name is in this list doesn't mean he was actually shill bidding.

1952boyntoncollector
01-28-2016, 04:46 PM
These are the names that appear in the Shill Bidder column of that list only, this does not includes the Consignors just to clarify


Alex Sawchak
Alex Sawchak and William Vangelos
Andrew Caparelli
Andrew Filipowski
Andrew Filipowski and Mastro Auctions
Andy Tuttle
Barbara Simmons
Bill Boehm
Bill Mastro
Bill Mastro and Andrew Filipowski
Bill Mastro and Jeffrey Marren
Bill Mastro and John Reznikoff
Bill Mastro and Millard Fisher
Bill Mastro, Mastro Auctions
Bill Mastro, Rich Mantia, Mastro Auctions
Bill Mastro, Ryan Friedman
Brian Bigelow
Brian Marren
Cardboard Coll.
Cardboard Collectibles
Chad Dreier
Chad Vandemark
Chris Porter
Chris Porter and Kirk Wagonlander
Cliff Kakelik and Mastro Auctions
Cliff Kekelik
Craig Helling
Cynthia Graves
Darryl Abramowitz
Dave Forman
Dennis Beechy
Derek Ihnat
Diroberto, Helling
Diroberto, Marronpot
Doug Allen
Doug Allen and Andrew Filipowski
Doug Allen and Bill Mastro
Doug Allen and John Reznikoff
Doug Allen and Mastro Auctions
Doug Allen, Reznikoff Mastro
Edward (Josh) Petrie
Eric Grigson
Frank Diroberto
Frank Diroberto, Marronpot
Frank Simmons
Greg Floyd
Helling
Henny Steinbach
Irv Lerner
Irv Lerner CPA
Irv Lerner, CPA
Jay Dyer
Jay Dyer and Shane Mooney
Jay Dyer, Mastro Auctions, Inc, and Shane Mooney
Jeff Marren
Jeff Marren and John Reznikoff
Jeff Marren and Mastro Auctions
Jeffrey Marren
Jennifer Stein
Jerry Zuckerman
Jerry Zuckerman and Ralph Deluca
Jerry Zuckerman, Joe Demattio
Jerry Zuckerman, Ralph Deluca
Joe Demattio
John Reznikoff
John Reznikoff and Mastro Auctions
John Reznikoff
Jorge Marce
Jorge Marce and Andrew Filipowski
Jorge Merce
Kevin Keating
Kevin Keating and Bill Mastro
Kevin Keating and Doug Allen
Kevin Keating, and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Kevin Keating, John Reznikoff
Kevin Keating, Reznikoff / Mastro
Kevin Keating, Rich Mantia
Kevin Struss
Kirk Wagonlander
Kirk Wagonlander and Mastro Auctions
Kirk Wagonlander, Mastro Auctions
Kristin Straub
Les Perline
Les Perline and Henny Steinbach
Les Perline and John Reznikoff
Les Perline
Les Perlne
Les Perlne and Mastro Auctions
Loraine Cordes
Marc Held
Mark Irodenko
Mark Irodenko and Andew filipowski
Mark Irodenko and Andrew Filipowski
Mark Theotikos
Mastro Auctions
Mastro Auctions and Doug Allen
Mastro Auctions and Shane Mooney
Mastro Auctions Inc.
Mastro Auctions, Inc and Steve Lucas
Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Mastro Auctions, Inc. and Bill Mastro
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and John Reznikoff
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and Mark Irodenko
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and Ryan Friedman
Mastro Auctions, Ryan Friedman
Mike Mallon
Mike Mallon and Dennis Beechy
Mitch Rosen
Nicholas Dawes
Nick Dawes
Nick Dawes and Mastro Auctions
Nick Dawes, Mastro Auctions
Nick Dawes, Rich Mantia
Niel Feltz
Peter Calderon
Peter Calderon, and Chris Porter
Peter Calderon, Bill Mastro
Peter Garcia
Peter Spaeth
Ralph Deluca
Ralph Deluca and Jerry Zuckerman
Ralph Deluca, Jerry Zuckerman and Joe Demattio
Random Treasures
Ray Canales
Reznikoff/Mastro
Reznikoff/Mastro John Reznikoff
Rich Mantia
Rich Mantia and Mastro Auctions
Rich Mantia, Kevin Keating and Bill Boehm
Richard Consola
Rob Hughes
Robert Bordan
Rocco Loconte
Roco Loconte
Roco Loconte and Nick Dawes
Ron Oser
Russ Pardy
Russ Purdy
Russ Purdy and Kevin Keating
Ryan Friedman
Shane Mooney
Shane Mooney, Jay Dyer, and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Stephen Spector
Steve Forman
Steve Lucas
Steve Lucas and Brian Bigelow
Steve Lucas and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Steven Turner
Teale Laney
Tim Frystak
Tim Frystak, Brian Marren, Chris Porter
TJ Schwartz
Whit Rutledge
William Schonsheck
William Vangelos
Zach Rullo

any of those guys regularly post on net54 in the past month or so

MULLINS5
01-28-2016, 04:47 PM
You would need an account with Legendary Auctions. Then go to history where you can search specific Auctions.

Here is the link for this specific item:
http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=70657

Thank you. It says the consignor is Joe Orlando. The bat was sold by a John Orlando, I believe. Could this be a really bad typo?

Shoeless Moe
01-28-2016, 04:47 PM
Just because Peter C's name is in this list doesn't mean he was actually shill bidding.

That's true. I know I'm registered at every auction house as Buck Naked.

bn2cardz
01-28-2016, 04:48 PM
That list is the just the Shill bidders, but not the ones that consigned.

Shoeless Moe
01-28-2016, 04:51 PM
any of those guys regularly post on net54 in the past month or so

I know one name sticks out like a sore thumb, has been signed on today, but is not commenting.

Shoebox
01-28-2016, 04:54 PM
That list is the just the Shill bidders, but not the ones that consigned.

+1 There is at least one board member that appears as a consigner for many lots that is not in the list of shill bidders.

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 05:00 PM
There are several people with connections to the auction house who are listed as shill bidders. That includes their Silk Road investor (Filipowski), their receptionist (Henny Steinbach), and their IT guy (Boehm), among others. Mastro was just 'spreading the wealth' there, I suspect, using other people's accounts to do his bidding (pun intended). Just because Peter C's name is in this list doesn't mean he was actually shill bidding.

There is quite a stretch from inferring phantom accounts were used to shill lots, to truly believing that the AH would actually use active accounts from established customers to bid. I'd think some eyebrows would be raised by someone getting an Email confirmation that they've bid on a lot.... that they didn't bid on. I don't buy it for a second.

h2oya311
01-28-2016, 05:05 PM
I know one name sticks out like a sore thumb, has been signed on today, but is not commenting.

+1

I'd love to hear him chime in. His name was on the victim list as well, assuming we're thinking of the same guy. I have to imagine there are a few errors on this spreadsheet.

MULLINS5
01-28-2016, 05:06 PM
Am I looking at the right list? It says "Consignor" and "Shiller"

bn2cardz
01-28-2016, 05:07 PM
Am I looking at the right list? It says "Consignor" and "Shiller"

Sorry, I meant the list posted directly in this thread by Shoeless Moe.

RichardSimon
01-28-2016, 05:08 PM
Zach Rullo, a PSA authenticator caught shill bidding. What is this world coming to?

bcornell
01-28-2016, 05:09 PM
There is quite a stretch from inferring phantom accounts were used to shill lots, to truly believing that the AH would actually use active accounts from established customers to bid. I'd think some eyebrows would be raised by someone getting an Email confirmation that they've bid on a lot.... that they didn't bid on. I don't buy it for a second.

I get what you're saying, but when you have access to a database as Mastro and Allen did, you can do anything you want with it. There's no guarantee emails were sent to high bidders to notify them.

Put another way, do we think their receptionist was part of the shill bidding conspiracy? That seems unlikely.

Bill

drcy
01-28-2016, 05:13 PM
Why can't a secretary place shill bids for her boss? I'd buy it if all the bids were the in the names of the receptionist and the janitor, but it's not as if the bosses were shy about bidding under their own names.

If others' accounts were surreptitiously 'borrowed' to place illegal bids, perhaps there should have been charges for identity theft.

Thus ultimate salt in the wound would be when someone sees he was bid up by Spot.

vintagetoppsguy
01-28-2016, 05:14 PM
What's the over/under on thread views here? :D

nsaddict
01-28-2016, 05:21 PM
There are 3 shillers listed that currently sit on the board of experts at PSA. If someone were to post this on the CU boards, how long would it last?

bobbyw8469
01-28-2016, 05:21 PM
What's the over/under on thread views here? :D

And how about this being a Net54 exclusive???? Not a peep about this across the pond!

MattyC
01-28-2016, 05:23 PM
Is Forman the same one from SGC? And can anyone see if those shilled lots were SGC cards?

Would also be great to know if any of the names involved have since become affiliated with/employed by other Auction Houses?

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 05:25 PM
this is quite the shit storm that's just getting started!

conor912
01-28-2016, 05:30 PM
What's the over/under on thread views here? :D

>25k

Beastmode
01-28-2016, 05:45 PM
>25k

Here's 25001.

I'm surprised so many folks are surprised. In-house proprietary auction houses make little sense from a financial perspective and can be easily manipulated by the AH. Shilling is probably still rampant on the ones that are left. You can't even see the bidders, which is the first clue as to what is going on there.

E-bay has already spent billions building this software platform; and they do all the maintenance, upgrading, hardware, security, power, cooling, etc; for pennies. Does E-bay have shilling? of course. But at least I have some information to review in bid history to make my own assessment.

Lastly, and it's been beat to death, stay within your budget and be patient, and you will never be a "victim" of shilling again.

Shoeless Moe
01-28-2016, 05:45 PM
>25k

in 1 day

RichardSimon
01-28-2016, 05:45 PM
what's the over/under on thread views here? :d

22,222

martyp
01-28-2016, 05:54 PM
Lastly, and it's been beat to death, stay within your budget and be patient, and you will never be a "victim" of shilling again.
I totally disagree with this statement. I bid within my budget and I am on the list as a victim of shilling. Just because you do not pay more than you are willing to does not mean that you will not pay more than you should have if the auction was run fairly.

autograf
01-28-2016, 05:58 PM
I agree with Bills take that you can't just assume because someone is in the shill column they did it...especially names like Calderon and Lucas and Henny Steinbach. There are some really aggredious instances on this spreadsheet though. Wow. Where does this go from here? Being outed like this, do people have any recourse on their situation? I was hit for $350 on a nonsports lot. I'm sure a lot of winners aren't jazzed about having the lots they won outed like this either. Many of these people play close to the best with their buying habits and collections.

autograf
01-28-2016, 06:00 PM
Agree with the sentiment above me. My budget may have been pushed by unrealistic prices set as a result of shilling even on lots that weren't shilled.

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 06:05 PM
this is quite the shit storm that's just getting started!

I have contacted 2 auction houses of which I currently have high bids. I respectively asked, that if the consignor of these lots appears on this list, to please retract my bids. I offered my understanding that this may exclude me from participating in further auctions. This list is a tiny tip of a huge iceberg. I hope it tips over, irregardless of what may happen to the current valuation of our collectibles.

Beastmode
01-28-2016, 06:05 PM
I know one name sticks out like a sore thumb, has been signed on today, but is not commenting.

Who was the consignor with this shill bidder?

Dpeck100
01-28-2016, 06:07 PM
I don't have a dog in the fight but there has been plenty of discussion surrounding many cards at the very high end that have had astronomical price appreciation correcting.

Some have tried to suggest it could come from a decline in the stock market.

This could easily be the unforeseen catalyst that impacts prices. If shilling was so rampant during this period one must assume it is even more rampant today with card prices appreciating at the rate they have in many cases.

I have a feeling this story is just getting started and it will be incredibly fascinating to watch it play out.

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 06:08 PM
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would let him bid using my ID. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if the bid from my account won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and the bid from my account was high bid, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

ALR-bishop
01-28-2016, 06:09 PM
And how about this being a Net54 exclusive???? Not a peep about this across the pond!

Someone started a thread, but it just refers people over here

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 06:16 PM
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction., particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron expected the set to go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

Thanks for posting the explanation Peter. I understand, and see how things can happen. That was 2007. I think you'll agree that everyone now is edgey and ready for zero tolerance

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 06:18 PM
Thanks for posting the explanation Peter. I understand, and see how things can happen. That was 2007. I think you'll agree that everyone now is edgey and ready for zero tolerance

Yes, and after discussing this with some people I respect, I do see the gray area.

Yoda
01-28-2016, 06:22 PM
Just when I thought that the Mastro Mess was beginning to move slowly to the back burner, with Bill inside and Doug soon to go, but now we have more sordid details and, horror of horrors, actual names on both sides of the equation. The Dark Side rules tonight. Yoda

buymycards
01-28-2016, 06:24 PM
Peter, the only reason that no one was "run up" is because it happened that there were no bidders. If there had been bidders, you would have run them up.

sflayank
01-28-2016, 06:25 PM
well peter admits to being a shill...how nice
so he believes theres nothing wrong with making the public believe the value of that item is what he bid when in fact there was no one willing to actually pay that price...ie the most anyone person was willing to pay lets says is 1800 and he puts in 2000...but the 1800 bidder actually would have won the lot for 1200 as the 3rd bidders hi bid was only 1100...and he doesnt see anything wrong with that....if your consignor friend ron wants at least x dollars then he should consign it to an AH that will start the bidding at x dollars...this is nothing more than artificially upping the perceived value in the eyes of the public...but theres nothing wrong with that....hmmmmm

1952boyntoncollector
01-28-2016, 06:26 PM
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron expected the set to go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

yeah that's pretty bad that you would bid and there was some collusion that if you won, the consignor would pay the BP to get the card back to the consignor..why not at least make you pay it to them (and then you get reimbursed by the consignor with sweaty palms)...yeah I understand the end game..no one was hurt because he wouldn't of consigned the card in the first place without assurances he would get a certain amount or get the card back..but when there was no agreement to a reserve and he still consigned the card anyway, that's an easy sign to know that the auction house is corrupt (and tip of the iceberg stuff) I don't know why you would be a part of it....maybe for this item no one got hurt but this sort of collusion probably occurred on other items with other shillers and people were victimized....but allowing to be used as pawns gave incentive to the auction house to look for other pawns out there..

again i understand no one got hurt this time..but sometimes bad things are done many times but only one time they get caught for it....though you always hear it on 'to catch a predator' it was their first time they ever did this...

I don't think you are part of the hobby problem at all..i think personally you are a great asset for the hobby and i am sure everyone would agree....i would bid on any of your ebay auctions if you had any with no hesitation.. you also are a great resource on knowledge on cards...i hope its doesn't look like i am bashing you...i just commenting.....also you are mentioned like the very very least out of the 100s of other names on there

asoriano
01-28-2016, 06:26 PM
...you gotta love this dirty hobby.

Den*nis O*Brien
01-28-2016, 06:27 PM
That Mrs. Steinbach knowingly participated in this "Low Rent" endeavor. And I wonder who this douche Les Perline is that is so frequently associated with her bidding. I certainly could be naive or confused but I've had a few conversations with Henny and her deceased husband Don and these revelations don't seem to match up with those folks. Could it be a stretch to think that "Higher Up's" could have exploited her account?
What about the CPA engaging in this ongoing horror show? They are held to a very high ethical standard in their profession. I assumed that would carry over to one's personal life. I was, in other years, a bidder/winner on 3 lots and most likely got nicked.

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 06:27 PM
Peter, the only reason that no one was "run up" is because it happened that there were no bidders. If there had been bidders, you would have run them up.

As I thought of it, if Ron had not consigned the set at all, or if there had been a reserve or an opening bid at the reserve level, nobody could have won it for less than one bid above mine anyhow. So your hypothetical is not real, as I see it. But as I said, I do understand there are other ways to look at it.

Vintagefun
01-28-2016, 06:29 PM
CU Thread...Poof. Not sure why. Disappointing.

ALR-bishop
01-28-2016, 06:31 PM
....in two shakes of a lamb's tail

Jeff1970Red
01-28-2016, 06:31 PM
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.

1952boyntoncollector
01-28-2016, 06:31 PM
....in two shakes of a lamb's tail

nah was more than 5 nanoseconds

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 06:34 PM
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have owned it, unlike anyone else so far who is on that list. I disagree with your opinion, as I see it this was not at anyone else's expense, please see my response to Rick.

1952boyntoncollector
01-28-2016, 06:36 PM
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have owned it, unlike anyone else so far who is on that list. I disagree with your opinion, as I see it this was not at anyone else's expense, please see my response to Rick.

yeah I agree he has owned it...it over now...we can take the pitchforks to the other villages now. (the other guys on the list)....there may be frankenstein out there to grab but peter would barely be a reprint of part of a shoelace on Frankenstein,, if that..

Bruinsfan94
01-28-2016, 06:36 PM
Yea I'm not seeing any gray area. Should just admit you made a mistake and move on. Everyone does something they regret once in a while.

Buythatcard
01-28-2016, 06:39 PM
This list just shows 2007-2008. Can you imagine what the list would look like if it included all the years that Mastro was in business? You know that it doesn't end with Mastro. I am sure that this is still going on within many AH's today. I am not saying that the AH are involved but there must be shilling done by individuals that have a connection with the consignor.

I have won 21 items from Mastro between 2005-2009 for a total of $34,000. The list shows that I was shilled only once in 2007 on a lot of 38 Colgan Chips. It makes me wonder how many other times they shilled me.

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 06:41 PM
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.

Per forum rules, your name please

1952boyntoncollector
01-28-2016, 06:43 PM
This list just shows 2007-2008. Can you imagine what the list would look like if it included all the years that Mastro was in business? You know that it doesn't end with Mastro. I am sure that this is still going on within many AH's today. I am not saying that the AH are involved but there must be shilling done by individuals that have a connection with the consignor.

I have won 21 items from Mastro between 2005-2009 for a total of $34,000. The list shows that I was shilled only once in 2007 on a lot of 38 Colgan Chips. It makes me wonder how many other times they shilled me.

theres also the issue the other way....maybe if you not bid that top bid..someone else was prepared to bid the exact amount as you in that bidding slot so they didn't bid it because you already beat them there.....hence they would of been the underbidder as well to fill up all those shill bids up to your winning bidding slot......just saying its not like if all the shill bidders disappeared the lot would of been won every time at the amount the apparent 'winning bid' the victim was going to pay free of shilling....basically whatever the amount they calculated the victims lost...the real amount would of been lower..but yeah I know its like I a thief saying he stole 3,000 and not 5,000 that the homeowner claims was stolen (and told the insurance company)


By the way when is someone going to post a picture with a bunch of people holding pitchforks with something funny stated on it.....you net54 guys are good at that stuff

Leon
01-28-2016, 06:58 PM
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.

For the moment I am not saying anything except that your full name, and everyone posting in this thread who makes any comment per the rules, needs to put their name in their post (if not easily found by your sig line etc)....per the rule in bold letters at the top of every page. It's not that important though. If anyone doesn't want their full name in their post then they can edit their comments out. Otherwise I will be putting names in posts per the rules at my leisure :) .......thanks to all

Exhibitman
01-28-2016, 06:59 PM
Could you please walk me through how you came to the conclusion that this is "clearly and instance where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid"? What do you base that on? I don't see the logic....at all .

Sure. It is phantom bidding, exactly the same concept as the Broadway Rick's Strike Zone scam on eBay several years ago: the auction operator runs up a top bidder on an item by a few bid increments. The bidder thinks he won the item for say $100 when in reality it should have closed at $70. The winner wasn't competing against anyone, he was just charged a couple of bid increments above where his bid should have been by a dishonest auctioneer.

Joshchisox08
01-28-2016, 07:01 PM
any of those guys regularly post on net54 in the past month or so

Was that a question? I'm curious myself.

AGuinness
01-28-2016, 07:07 PM
Garth Guibord

It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim.

Actually, no. When a reserve is included, the bidders are aware of it. In this case, it's clearly deceptive. It's doesn't take a degree in ethics to see that.

Not to mention the data point each shill auction, including that one, provides the industry, but is also deceptive.

I would hope people would be smart and decent enough that when they engage with somebody with shady practices, in this case an auction house who doesn't provide a specific service but encourages a deceptive alternative, they would simply walk away and find a more respectable auction house. Not offering a reserve, but suggesting this type of bidding as a proxy is a big red flag.

Jeff1970Red
01-28-2016, 07:07 PM
The fact is there was never any intention to purchase the lot.

My opinion is that this was not the first time this occurred.

What I ask is to stop the BS gray area talk, no excuses, the same conversation I have with my kids and myself, daily.

No pitchfork just advice.

Jeff D'Errico

xplainer
01-28-2016, 07:12 PM
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.

He did.

I'm not a big baller in the card world, but I do follow the story.

Peter, I disagree 100% of what you did. But you did step up and tell your story. I do applaud your for that. Thanks.

Exhibitman
01-28-2016, 07:15 PM
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

There are a lot of catty, snarky comments that would be fun to post, but really, reading this just makes me sad. You still don't get it. There are only two sides to this: right and wrong. You are on the wrong side. You did a bad thing. At least have the decency to admit it without the song and dance. People forgive most stuff, but not hypocrisy.

glchen
01-28-2016, 07:15 PM
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

Peter, this is an argument that anyone on the list could make. As another poster mentioned, this is counted as a sale, so one way shillers drive the price of items up is that they show demand for that price (e.g., VCP). If you dot VCP with fake sales, then buyers think there is actual demand for the item at that price, where there isn't. I definitely respect practically all of your posts, so I hope you can come around your thinking on this one.

brianp-beme
01-28-2016, 07:16 PM
How was it determined shill bidding occurred on all these lots? Many of them are obvious, such as the ones listed as the shiller being the auction house or an employee, and ones from consigners with multiple lots, each having the same shilling bidder, but how about the other one-offs? Are there records of 'shill agreements' that wasn't obvious in this document? Being a non-lawyer, I refused to read the whole document.

Brian

sago
01-28-2016, 07:17 PM
I get what you're saying, but when you have access to a database as Mastro and Allen did, you can do anything you want with it. There's no guarantee emails were sent to high bidders to notify them.

Put another way, do we think their receptionist was part of the shill bidding conspiracy? That seems unlikely.

Bill

Mastro was close with Don Steinbach IIRC. Figure Henny is related. Not accusing her of anything, but it is possible.

D@v1d D@v1s

Leon
01-28-2016, 07:20 PM
How was it determined shill bidding occurred on all these lots? Many of them are obvious, such as the ones listed as the shiller being the auction house or an employee, and ones from consigners with multiple lots, each having the same shilling bidder, but how about the other one-offs? Were there records of 'shill agreements' that wasn't obvious in the listing?

Brian

I will take a stab at a guess. I guess they might have used bidding records, boxes sent to bidders who didn't win anything, boxes sent to consignors, admissions of rats, emails, texts, phone calls.....and I imagine the list goes on. But again, as Sgt Schultz would say, I know nothing.

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 07:23 PM
Peter, this is an argument that anyone on the list could make. As another poster mentioned, this is counted as a sale, so one way shillers drive the price of items up is that they show demand for that price (e.g., VCP). If you dot VCP with fake sales, then buyers think there is actual demand for the item at that price, where there isn't. I definitely respect practically all of your posts, so I hope you can come around your thinking on this one.

Gary that was not the intent here, but I do understand that aspect of it and I had not thought about it back at the time.

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 07:30 PM
Based on Peter S's history on here...I am a little surprised as well that you do not see this type of behavior as wrong...a little shocking...but I respect u for coming forward.

On another note...apparently this type of behavior routinely occurs in other areas of collecting...fine arts, etc...where the "house" will "bid up" an item to a "hidden reserve" or such...and this is accepted. While I dont like this...I dont like most things...so go figure!!!!

Many here consider these pieces of cardboard "Art"...is it time for the hobby rules to change?

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 07:31 PM
There are a lot of catty, snarky comments that would be fun to post, but really, reading this just makes me sad. You still don't get it. There are only two sides to this: right and wrong. You are on the wrong side. You did a bad thing. At least have the decency to admit it without the song and dance. People forgive most stuff, but not hypocrisy.

Adam, you are entitled to your opinion. Make whatever snarky comments you wish, I don't mind at all, I knew the wave of sanctimoniousness was coming when I posted. Some agree with you, and some very thoughtful people I have spoken to don't see it in your black and white terms. Maybe they will chime in, maybe they won't, whatever.

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 07:33 PM
Based on Peter S's history on here...I am a little surprised as well that you do not see this type of behavior as wrong...a little shocking...but I respect u for coming forward.

On another note...apparently this type of behavior routinely occurs in other areas of collecting...fine arts, etc...where the "house" will "bid up" an item to a "hidden reserve" or such...and this is accepted. While I dont like this...I dont like most things...so go figure!!!!

Many here consider these pieces of cardboard "Art"...is it time for the hobby rules to change?

Pete, for better or worse, and I have said this before many times in debates here so this is nothing new, I think running someone up knowing they have a top all is not the same thing as bidding a lot up to a reserve, especially with the willingness to pay the premium. I get the argument on the other side. As for coming forward, that's just my choice. Hopefully some others will offer their own explanations and perspectives, but if not, well I will surely take the heat for them as it's a lot easier to dump on an actual poster than people who aren't willing to engage.

ElCabron
01-28-2016, 07:37 PM
Anyone whose name is on that list in spite of their innocence is welcome to come here and set the record straight. Feel free to let us know all about how you didn't do it and how you're outraged that your reputation is being dragged through the mud. Go ahead and publicly declare your innocence right here. There is absolutely no reason not to, if you're innocent, so please post here so we can help you clear your name. If innocent people are being publicly accused of unethical actions which they didn't do, I say we demand an investigation into how that happened. Don't just sit there and let everyone think you have zero integrity. The truth shall set you free! Or shut you up. The truth will definitely do one of those two things.

-Ryan

FirstYearCards
01-28-2016, 07:46 PM
Why would you ever put a bid in for something that you didn't think it was worth? Seems to me if you put a bid in for something at $5,000 and it's bid up to it, that's what you are willing to pay for it and what it's worth(to you).

bnorth
01-28-2016, 07:49 PM
Based on Peter S's history on here...I am a little surprised as well that you do not see this type of behavior as wrong...a little shocking...but I respect u for coming forward.

+1 I also know what Peter done was wrong but respect him for coming forward.

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 07:56 PM
+1 I also know what Peter done was wrong but respect him for coming forward.

I appreciate that. I much prefer to be slammed by people who disagree with me than to appear to be cowardly and not confront the issue.

xplainer
01-28-2016, 08:03 PM
+1 I also know what Peter done was wrong but respect him for coming forward.

Yeah, that is what I meant with my post. Agree Ben.

Steve D
01-28-2016, 08:11 PM
As I thought of it, if Ron had not consigned the set at all, or if there had been a reserve or an opening bid at the reserve level, nobody could have won it for less than one bid above mine anyhow. So your hypothetical is not real, as I see it. But as I said, I do understand there are other ways to look at it.


Here's my take:

If there had been, say, a $2,000 reserve on the lot, and the highest bidder bid $1,500, everyone would see that the set did not meet the reserve. This could be attributed to either the reserve being set too high, or there just being low interest in the set at that particular time. As it happened, a "shill bid" was placed for $2,000, to match the "unstated" reserve. This led people to believe the set had sold at that price. This is the lie, that the set sold, when it actually did not; and this is where, in my opinion, the main problem lies. It results in false price information being released to the public, and a false value being placed on the item. The set may later exceed the value that was falsely reported at that time, but there is really no way of knowing what effect the false info had, even if there are years between the auction in question, and the actual later sale.

The safest and best way to proceed is to set a reserve (if desired), and let the bidding determine if the reserve is realistic (at that particular moment in time). Then at least, if the item does not sell, the public has accurate information to use, in later placing a value on it.

Steve

ElCabron
01-28-2016, 08:15 PM
As heroic as it was to "come forward" AFTER he'd been publicly outed for shill bidding, which he actually did do, maybe every board member doesn't still need to come forward and congratulate Peter. I think we all get it. He did a wonderful thing and has received plenty of kudos and validation for it. Hopefully Peter will serve as inspiration for others to come forward and admit their guilt, which will certainly be received with thunderous applause while board members sing "For he's a jolly good fellow" before each one individually praises the shill bidder in a brand new post for being such a stand up guy.

-Ryan

Shoebox
01-28-2016, 08:16 PM
Have been looking over the information in this document a lot through the day and while I was not directly affected by this I have a lot of thoughts I want to express.

1. Peter, seeing your name appear as a shill bidder was disappointing to me as I genuinely appreciate the knowledge, experience, and opinions you contribute to this community. However, I thank you for being willing to acknowledge your actions and face fallout from them. I respect you for doing that even if I think your actions were wrong. There are others that have much more to answer for but so far remain silent.

2.This is only a tiny portion of the fraud. 2 years worth of auctions by only one AH and this is only the transactions that someone with direct knowledge squealed on or confessed to having direct knowledge of the conspiracy. We know about Peter's because of conversations between the consignor and Maestro. How many agreements like that might have been reached that the AH didn't know about. I don't have to tell the AH that I am going to have a proxy place a protection bid on my consignment to keep from losing it at too low a price.

3. If a name appears as a shill bidder you placed a shill bid or one was placed under your name. The only way your name appears in that column was if there is direct evidence or testimony that the bid in question was part of the conspiracy. Some of the theories that some in that list may not be directly involved is in my opinion likely just wishful thinking.

4. The AH has an incentive to shill if there is a high max bid so it is possible for a consignor to have his lots shill bid without his involvement. However, when I see a board member appear as a consignor for 30 lots in this list and the names of the shill bidders only appears on their lots then I can make a pretty safe inference they were a willing participant in the fraud. If there is some other explanation for that JC Clarke I welcome you to offer it.

5. The occurrences I mention in 4 are present for Ken Goldin as well. So, there is a strong likelihood that he was involved in arranging shill bidding of several consignments to Maestro. If he is willing to participate in such actions in other auctions why should I have any confidence that he doesn't allow or even facilitate it in the auctions his AH runs? I hope Leon is already considering whether Goldin Auctions should continue to be allowed to advertise on this forum. I know I am unlikely to ever bid in one of their auctions.

I know I am just a bottom level collector and I don't have a spit's worth of significance in the collecting world but even a novice nobody like me can see that there are a whole lot more people than just the ones on this list that have dirt on their hands.

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 08:26 PM
As heroic as it was to "come forward" AFTER he'd been publicly outed for shill bidding, which he actually did do, maybe every board member doesn't still need to come forward and congratulate Peter. I think we all get it. He did a wonderful thing and has received plenty of kudos and validation for it. Hopefully Peter will serve as inspiration for others to come forward and admit their guilt, which will certainly be received with thunderous applause while board members sing "For he's a jolly good fellow" before each one individually praises the shill bidder in a brand new post for being such a stand up guy.

-Ryan

Nobody does sarcasm quite like Ryan. I should have let those posts stand where Adam and Ullman originally thought I was a victim, I guess.

swarmee
01-28-2016, 08:34 PM
So the "Hidden Reserve" was basically the same concept that PWCC used in eBay for years as well as are still in the Terms of Service at multiple auctionhouses going today. Not illegal, just unsavory.

I wasn't in the vintage card market at that time, and I don't really splash in the deep end now, but I will continue to make minimum bids and then snipe at the end.

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 08:39 PM
Have been looking over the information in this document a lot through the day and while I was not directly affected by this I have a lot of thoughts I want to express.

1. Peter, seeing your name appear as a shill bidder was disappointing to me as I genuinely appreciate the knowledge, experience, and opinions you contribute to this community. However, I thank you for being willing to acknowledge your actions and face fallout from them. I respect you for doing that even if I think your actions were wrong. There are others that have much more to answer for but so far remain silent.

2.This is only a tiny portion of the fraud. 2 years worth of auctions by only one AH and this is only the transactions that someone with direct knowledge squealed on or confessed to having direct knowledge of the conspiracy. We know about Peter's because of conversations between the consignor and Maestro. How many agreements like that might have been reached that the AH didn't know about. I don't have to tell the AH that I am going to have a proxy place a protection bid on my consignment to keep from losing it at too low a price.

3. If a name appears as a shill bidder you placed a shill bid or one was placed under your name. The only way your name appears in that column was if there is direct evidence or testimony that the bid in question was part of the conspiracy. Some of the theories that some in that list may not be directly involved is in my opinion likely just wishful thinking.

4. The AH has an incentive to shill if there is a high max bid so it is possible for a consignor to have his lots shill bid without his involvement. However, when I see a board member appear as a consignor for 30 lots in this list and the names of the shill bidders only appears on their lots then I can make a pretty safe inference they were a willing participant in the fraud. If there is some other explanation for that JC Clarke I welcome you to offer it.

5. The occurrences I mention in 4 are present for Ken Goldin as well. So, there is a strong likelihood that he was involved in arranging shill bidding of several consignments to Maestro. If he is willing to participate in such actions in other auctions why should I have any confidence that he doesn't allow or even facilitate it in the auctions his AH runs? I hope Leon is already considering whether Goldin Auctions should continue to be allowed to advertise on this forum. I know I am unlikely to ever bid in one of their auctions.

I know I am just a bottom level collector and I don't have a spit's worth of significance in the collecting world but even a novice nobody like me can see that there are a whole lot more people than just the ones on this list that have dirt on their hands.

I agree
I'm going to unsubscribe to Goldin Auctions
Do I have to start a thread to ban myself?

Jeffrompa
01-28-2016, 08:49 PM
Makes me want to open a pizza shop . It's kind of disturbing to the soul .

xplainer
01-28-2016, 08:54 PM
As heroic as it was to "come forward" AFTER he'd been publicly outed for shill bidding, which he actually did do, maybe every board member doesn't still need to come forward and congratulate Peter. I think we all get it. He did a wonderful thing and has received plenty of kudos and validation for it. Hopefully Peter will serve as inspiration for others to come forward and admit their guilt, which will certainly be received with thunderous applause while board members sing "For he's a jolly good fellow" before each one individually praises the shill bidder in a brand new post for being such a stand up guy.

-Ryan

Ryan,
I really don't know Peter, except posting on here. But he stepped up and told what he did. I think you are going over board on the praise thing.

I, and others, have said what he did was wrong, but thank you for stepping up and telling us your story.

Others haven't responded at all. And probably won't.

Peter told what he did. Everyone, except him, have said it was wrong. He'll come around.

No one has supported his action or position.

glchen
01-28-2016, 09:09 PM
Gary that was not the intent here, but I do understand that aspect of it and I had not thought about it back at the time.

Thanks for your response, Peter. Obviously, you did not gain from this transaction, and frankly, although you are defending him, I think your friend put you in a bad spot. If you had not accepted that request out of friendship, you would not be having to defend yourself now.

1880nonsports
01-28-2016, 09:16 PM
overall pretty well said.
Peter I read most of your posts as they're generally threads of interest to me and I respect your thoughtful contributions much of the time. I think you made the wrong call back then - the climate was a bit different than it is now but your action has to be seen in the light as complicity in creating an artificial transaction. This is true whether or not you could see evidence of your bid's effects and it's impact. Frankly I'm surprised. Not an egregious act - done without ill intent - but in the arena of right vs. wrong - wrong. I don't think owning up with a caveat is the degree of response I'd expect from you but appreciate that you felt manning up was the way to go.........
As for Henny or Chad - my gut feeling is they were unwittingly exploited.
When one sees the actual scope reflected in but a small part of the hobby over a short period of time ON PAPER - it becomes very real. Everyone in the hobby pays the price so I think everyone should be pissed. That and my friends Marty and Glen Mechanick were shilled more than once. That makes it personal......

Beastmode
01-28-2016, 09:17 PM
I agree
I'm going to unsubscribe to Goldin Auctions
Do I have to start a thread to ban myself?

:):):)

Shoebox
01-28-2016, 09:27 PM
Since I called out one forum member by name for appearing as a consignor on a large number of lots all shill bid by the same person I should also point out that that is also true of forum member Greg Schwartz.

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 09:32 PM
overall pretty well said.
Peter I read most of your posts as they're generally threads of interest to me and I respect your thoughtful contributions much of the time. I think you made the wrong call back then - the climate was a bit different than it is now but your action has to be seen in the light as complicity in creating an artificial transaction. This is true whether or not you could see evidence of your bid's effects and it's impact. Frankly I'm surprised. Not an egregious act - done without ill intent - but in the arena of right vs. wrong - wrong. I don't think owning up with a caveat is the degree of response I'd expect from you but appreciate that you felt manning up was the way to go.........
As for Henny or Chad - my gut feeling is they were unwittingly exploited.
When one sees the actual scope reflected in but a small part of the hobby over a short period of time ON PAPER - it becomes very real. Everyone in the hobby pays the price so I think everyone should be pissed. That and my friends Marty and Glen Mechanick were shilled more than once. That makes it personal......

Fair comment and I appreciate your perspective. As I told Gary, for better or worse I was not focused at all at the time on the potential for creating an artificial transaction. I don't remember now if as a general matter that had been flagged or not as a hobby issue but in any case not making any excuses. Points taken.

Beastmode
01-28-2016, 09:33 PM
I appreciate that. I much prefer to be slammed by people who disagree with me than to appear to be cowardly and not confront the issue.

I don't know Peter, and I'm not a piling-on type of poster, and I generally don't cast stones, and I'm not without my own faults, but that was a duesch bag move in 2007.

It appears you haven't gone through the 10-step shiller program. Your are now a recovering shiller, which means stop digging.

But I do commend you for having the balls to post. In 12 months, no-one will remember this.

Beastmode
01-28-2016, 09:35 PM
Since I called out one forum member by name for appearing as a consignor on a large number of lots all shill bid by the same person I should also point out that that is also true of forum member Greg Schwartz.

Call em all out. Can't wait for the stories.

Mark
01-28-2016, 09:38 PM
So the "Hidden Reserve" was basically the same concept that PWCC used in eBay for years as well as are still in the Terms of Service at multiple auctionhouses going today. Not illegal, just unsavory.

I wasn't in the vintage card market at that time, and I don't really splash in the deep end now, but I will continue to make minimum bids and then snipe at the end.

The hidden reserve is unsavory and contrary to the spirit of the auction. It is not illegal, but I don't think Christy Mathewson would do it.

Fred
01-28-2016, 09:42 PM
After reading through this document I felt like I wanted to puke. WTF!

How do they know that those on the shill bidders list actually shilled the auction?

Can we assume that each of the victims were notified?

Was any restitution paid to the victims by the shill bidders or Mastro or Allen?

OMG - how much of those auctions were actually legitimate? Based on all the shill bidding going on it appears that many items are probably a bit inflated in value.

Is anything going to happen to the other shill bidders listed?

conor912
01-28-2016, 09:44 PM
If this board were a band, this is definitely where we'd break up.

D.P.Johnson
01-28-2016, 09:48 PM
What are the odds that the one and only time someone shills an auction they get caught???...:)...

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 10:06 PM
Here's my take:

If there had been, say, a $2,000 reserve on the lot, and the highest bidder bid $1,500, everyone would see that the set did not meet the reserve. This could be attributed to either the reserve being set too high, or there just being low interest in the set at that particular time. As it happened, a "shill bid" was placed for $2,000, to match the "unstated" reserve. This led people to believe the set had sold at that price. This is the lie, that the set sold, when it actually did not; and this is where, in my opinion, the main problem lies. It results in false price information being released to the public, and a false value being placed on the item. The set may later exceed the value that was falsely reported at that time, but there is really no way of knowing what effect the false info had, even if there are years between the auction in question, and the actual later sale.

The safest and best way to proceed is to set a reserve (if desired), and let the bidding determine if the reserve is realistic (at that particular moment in time). Then at least, if the item does not sell, the public has accurate information to use, in later placing a value on it.

Steve

The consignor obviously would have preferred a reserve, as it would not have cost him thousands of dollars not to sell his set, as it turned out, but he was told the option was not available. So he took the instruction of what was then still a mostly highly respected auction house as to an alternative. Sure everyone can sit in judgment now. Whatever.

Rich Klein
01-28-2016, 10:19 PM
Peter Nash must be smiling, rubbing his hands and getting his next column ready

Did anyone notice in the 2002 auction Rob Lifson's name was posted. Now I know that things have evolved since then but that was fascinating. I repeat something I was thinking after Rob's Friday night announcement in his blog about retiring. I just found it strange a story broke on a Friday night. Usually in politics, if you want to bury a story, release the news on Friday Night.

If it's good news, release the story on Monday Morning about 9 AM

TJ Schwartz's name is posted as well as well -- he writes a column for SCD called on your side. HMMM

Peter Calderon (now at Heritage) is also listed as a shill bidder.

These are just some of the quick highlights as I don't have the eyes to read through every name.

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 10:19 PM
After reading through this document I felt like I wanted to puke. WTF!

How do they know that those on the shill bidders list actually shilled the auction?

Can we assume that each of the victims were notified?

Was any restitution paid to the victims by the shill bidders or Mastro or Allen?

OMG - how much of those auctions were actually legitimate? Based on all the shill bidding going on it appears that many items are probably a bit inflated in value.

Is anything going to happen to the other shill bidders listed?

where have u been fred...these discussions have been going on for a while...and there was a long thread last year urging people to write letters to the judge prosecuting mastro to try to get restitution or a longer sentance.

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 10:21 PM
Peter Nash must be smiling, rubbing his hands and getting his next column ready

Did anyone notice in the 2002 auction Rob Lifson's name was posted. Now I know that things have evolved since then but that was fascinating. I repeat something I was thinking after Rob's Friday night announcement in his blog about retiring. I just found it strange a story broke on a Friday night. Usually in politics, if you want to bury a story, release the news on Friday Night.

If it's good news, release the story on Monday Morning about 9 AM

TJ Schwartz's name is posted as well as well -- he writes a column for SCD called on your side. HMMM

Peter Calderon (now at Heritage) is also listed as a shill bidder.

These are just some of the quick highlights as I don't have the eyes to read through every name.

meh never mind

Fred
01-28-2016, 10:25 PM
Pete,

Perhaps I chose to "ostrich-up" and pretend that this stuff doesn't really happen in a hobby that's brought me a lot of joy. Yes, I've been reading about this for a while but when you see a fact base document from a court of law it's hard to keep your head buried.

swarmee
01-28-2016, 10:28 PM
In similar news:
http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/member-sales-trade-feedback/960820-probstein-bbcardsniper.html

Arizona Diamondbacks closer Brad Ziegler recounts how and why he shill bid auctions through Probstein on eBay.

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 10:29 PM
Pete,

Perhaps I chose to "ostrich-up" and pretend that this stuff doesn't really happen in a hobby that's brought me a lot of joy. Yes, I've been reading about this for a while but when you see a fact base document from a court of law it's hard to keep your head buried.

i know what you mean...now its all too real!

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 10:33 PM
And what about Dave Forman's involvment...the thread about PSA or SGC going under doesnt seem all that implausible any more??

I mean with beckett owning their own auction house and grading company...Tpg'ers are printing money and double dipping in the profits...this is scary!

botn
01-28-2016, 10:37 PM
Over, at least, the last 4 years I was advised and urged to not make a post like this so this comes as a great relief to me that I can finally write this. There is nothing noble in my decision to do this since my name is out there as a consignor with Mastro and associated with items which were identified as shilled but I feel I owe an explanation to those who were harmed and to those who call me a hobby friend. I made a mess so I have to clean it up.
During roughly 2005 to 2009 we consigned a few hundred thousand dollars worth of material to Mastro. Our consignments generally consisted of our more expensive inventory since that type of material did not seem to do as well on eBay—our only other outlet for retail sales AND auction houses like Mastro seemed to be setting record prices. At some point after less than stellar auction results and being completely incensed and frustrated, we decided to protect items rather than allowing them to sell below what we felt were fair values.

At no point did we ever conspire with anyone at Mastro on those bids. We never knew who was bidding on our items or what their bids were. I have no recollection which of our consignments I was the one to place a bid and which my former business partner bid on but since he is no longer here I have to take responsibility for our actions. Sometimes a top all would be placed and other times we would bid incrementally so as to not open ourselves up to being shill bid, as ironic as that might sound. In each instance our bids were made with the intent to buy back the item and a willingness to pay the buyer’s premium, as we did each time we bought back a lot. It did not feel right doing this but I never thought of it as being illegal.

Not to make excuses but the practice described above, of protecting a lot, was very prevalent at that time even among collectors. I will not call out anyone by name but some are current posters here who would frequently ask me to bid up their auction listings on eBay. I now understand why the government considers this shill bidding however our intent with Mastro was never to defraud anyone but to simply protect what was ours. Obviously we should not have consigned if we were not willing to accept that our items might fall far short of our expectations. I cannot take back what I was a part of but I can be a better person going forward. I am sorry to those I harmed and to those who I have disappointed.

As a side note the list may not be as accurate as the government might think. There are a couple errors that I know of in regards to items identified as my consignments according to my records.

Greg

Bliggity
01-28-2016, 10:40 PM
In similar news:
http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/member-sales-trade-feedback/960820-probstein-bbcardsniper.html

Arizona Diamondbacks closer Brad Ziegler recounts how and why he shill bid auctions through Probstein on eBay.

And then when he got caught lying about why he shilled, he ran away with his tail between his legs and refused to post anymore.

SMPEP
01-28-2016, 10:42 PM
Okay Peter let me get this straight - You helped your "Friend" Ron Gouldberg by placing a reserve bid for him, and if I'm reading this correctly, in Auction #43, lot #1039 he returns the favor by shill bidding you up over $17,000 for an item he submitted to Maestro?

Wow. Perhaps you should re-think your definition of friend.

Patrick Prickett

Rich Klein
01-28-2016, 10:44 PM
Some very random thoughts here

1) Kudos to Leon for keeping this thread going. I know many of the names on the list are advertisers and he's willing to let this be noted. You can disagree with him on many things -- sometimes just to be a contrarian (Marquard) but instead of hiding this information he ensured it came out.

2) I see named like Brian Bigelow on the list. I've known Brian for more than 25 years and he may be the finest hobby writer around. Brian was working for Mastro at the time and I would wager he had an account that was used for various purposes.

3) I always say, if you bid in an auction, Bid up to whatever level you are comfortable at. Period end of sentence. Even if your bid gets pushed up, you are still at a good level. What's not good is when we all get excited and then push ourselves up in the spirit of competition. The last time I checked: "It's only cardboard"

4) And everyone who accepts monies from people on this list for advertising if they have evolved and moved over or moved on. I understand totally. One has to stay in business and advertising money is how they do that. Sounds hypocritical but just a realty

Regards
Rich

PS I think I'll go back to my vg-ex cards now :)

ullmandds
01-28-2016, 10:45 PM
Over, at least, the last 4 years I was advised and urged to not make a post like this so this comes as a great relief to me that I can finally write this. There is nothing noble in my decision to do this since my name is out there as a consignor with Mastro and associated with items which were identified as shilled but I feel I owe an explanation to those who were harmed and to those who call me a hobby friend. I made a mess so I have to clean it up.
During roughly 2005 to 2009 we consigned a few hundred thousand dollars worth of material to Mastro. Our consignments generally consisted of our more expensive inventory since that type of material did not seem to do as well on eBay—our only other outlet for retail sales AND auction houses like Mastro seemed to be setting record prices. At some point after less than stellar auction results and being completely incensed and frustrated, we decided to protect items rather than allowing them to sell below what we felt were fair values.

At no point did we ever conspire with anyone at Mastro on those bids. We never knew who was bidding on our items or what their bids were. I have no recollection which of our consignments I was the one to place a bid and which my former business partner bid on but since he is no longer here I have to take responsibility for our actions. Sometimes a top all would be placed and other times we would bid incrementally so as to not open ourselves up to being shill bid, as ironic as that might sound. In each instance our bids were made with the intent to buy back the item and a willingness to pay the buyer’s premium, as we did each time we bought back a lot. It did not feel right doing this but I never thought of it as being illegal.

Not to make excuses but the practice described above, of protecting a lot, was very prevalent at that time even among collectors. I will not call out anyone by name but some are current posters here who would frequently ask me to bid up their auction listings on eBay. I now understand why the government considers this shill bidding however our intent with Mastro was never to defraud anyone but to simply protect what was ours. Obviously we should not have consigned if we were not willing to accept that our items might fall far short of our expectations. I cannot take back what I was a part of but I can be a better person going forward. I am sorry to those I harmed and to those who I have disappointed.

As a side note the list may not be as accurate as the government might think. There are a couple errors that I know of in regards to items identified as my consignments according to my records.

Greg

WOW! Looks like pete's off the hook!!!

Peter_Spaeth
01-28-2016, 10:46 PM
Okay Peter let me get this straight - You helped your "Friend" Ron Gouldberg by placing a reserve bid for him, and if I'm reading this correctly, in Auction #43, lot #1039 he returns the favor by shill bidding you up over $17,000 for an item he submitted to Maestro?

Wow. Perhaps you should re-think your definition of friend.

Patrick Prickett

Patrick no, that's one and the same with the auction where Ron used my account to place a reserve bid. The only place his or my name appear on that list.

SMPEP
01-28-2016, 10:56 PM
My mistake.

Sorry.
Patrick Prickett

slidekellyslide
01-28-2016, 10:58 PM
Used to be a regular on the board, who had an impressive collection, then sold it all off. If you search his name and his shill bidders name, you'll see they share the same profession in the same town

Got mega-rich by suing Big Tobacco. Didn't need to shill. Should be in jail. :mad:

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 11:02 PM
Some very random thoughts here

1) Kudos to Leon for keeping this thread going. I know many of the names on the list are advertisers and he's willing to let this be noted. You can disagree with him on many things -- sometimes just to be a contrarian (Marquard) but instead of hiding this information he ensured it came out.

2) I see named like Brian Bigelow on the list. I've known Brian for more than 25 years and he may be the finest hobby writer around. Brian was working for Mastro at the time and I would wager he had an account that was used for various purposes.

3) I always say, if you bid in an auction, Bid up to whatever level you are comfortable at. Period end of sentence. Even if your bid gets pushed up, you are still at a good level. What's not good is when we all get excited and then push ourselves up in the spirit of competition. The last time I checked: "It's only cardboard"

4) And everyone who accepts monies from people on this list for advertising if they have evolved and moved over or moved on. I understand totally. One has to stay in business and advertising money is how they do that. Sounds hypocritical but just a realty

Regards
Rich

PS I think I'll go back to my vg-ex cards now :)

Thanks for the warm fuzzies. Lift rug and keep sweeping .

Brian Van Horn
01-28-2016, 11:06 PM
Before my current scan of this post I noticed the views are at 16,495. I have to wonder if that is a single day record for views.

As for the list of shill bidders, I am elated for the most part. The one exception was the last name of Steinbach. I remember speaking with Don Steinbach the day before he passed away and I remember he and Pat Quinn with their ads in the SCD. I always wonder how it may have turned it if Don lived, but the memory is simply tarnished. It hurts to see the last name on the list of shill bidders. I always enjoyed dealing with Don.

slidekellyslide
01-28-2016, 11:08 PM
I get what you're saying, but when you have access to a database as Mastro and Allen did, you can do anything you want with it. There's no guarantee emails were sent to high bidders to notify them.

Put another way, do we think their receptionist was part of the shill bidding conspiracy? That seems unlikely.

Bill

Is that receptionist related to Mastro's former business partner back in the 90s who passed away?

Steve D
01-28-2016, 11:10 PM
The consignor obviously would have preferred a reserve, as it would not have cost him thousands of dollars not to sell his set, as it turned out, but he was told the option was not available. So he took the instruction of what was then still a mostly highly respected auction house as to an alternative. Sure everyone can sit in judgment now. Whatever.


Point taken Peter; and that is where Doug Allen's feet need to be held to the fire. At least in your case, Doug appears to be the one spearheading the illicit activities. It, perhaps, does not fully eliminate the consigner's or your culpability, but it would serve to mitigate it.

Steve

midmo
01-28-2016, 11:28 PM
If this board were a band, this is definitely where we'd break up.

http://www.collectingbrooklyn.com/net54/shillin.jpg

Stonepony
01-28-2016, 11:29 PM
http://www.collectingbrooklyn.com/net54/shillin.jpg

Now that's funny!!

Brian Van Horn
01-28-2016, 11:37 PM
http://www.collectingbrooklyn.com/net54/shillin.jpg

So, if we are looking at this from an original Hall of Fame induction angle as opposed to the Beatles, does that make Yoko Ono Babe Ruth? Oh, no! :eek:

bcornell
01-28-2016, 11:38 PM
As for the list of shill bidders, I am elated for the most part. The one exception was the last name of Steinbach. I remember speaking with Don Steinbach the day before he passed away and I remember he and Pat Quinn with their ads in the SCD. I always wonder how it may have turned it if Don lived, but the memory is simply tarnished. It hurts to see the last name on the list of shill bidders. I always enjoyed dealing with Don.

Do you think a column in a spreadsheet is the gospel? I'm going to bet that Don Steinbach's widow was not a hobby arch villain, although you've already condemned her.

Didn't see your name anywhere in that doc, Brian. No surprise.

slidekellyslide
01-28-2016, 11:45 PM
After reading through that list how are there not more people going to jail here? There are instances of consignors with hundreds of items being shilled by the same shill bidder. For instance Dan Knoll has the same shill bidder (Dennis Beechy) on all 97 of his consigned lots.

Fred
01-28-2016, 11:48 PM
From post 211

To Craig Schwartz,


"In each instance our bids were made with the intent to buy back the item and a willingness to pay the buyer’s premium"

Is that what you call a good business plan? What about the consignment premium? Didn't you have to pay that also? Doesn't that mean you'd have to purchase your own item and pay out about 30% (or more for both the buyer and sellers premiums) just to have the item consigned in the auction?

Here's the ebay definition of shill bidding:

Shill bidding happens when anyone—including family, friends, roommates, employees, or online connections—bids on an item with the intent to artificially increase its price or desirability.

I'm not a very smart person, but doesn't what you indicate constitute "shill bidding" if you apply the ebay definition? :confused:

ElCabron
01-28-2016, 11:54 PM
Still haven't heard anyone dispute anything about the list. Only silence from those identified. There have been two people to step up and post here regarding their inclusion on the list. Both of them have admitted they were guilty. Not one person has disputed it. So, for now, the list appears to be pretty accurate. The list is Jose Canseco. No one wants to believe it, but it's starting to look more and more correct. Now all we need is Kevin Keating to testify before congress and point his finger at them while he angrily declares, "I have never shill bid in an auction. Period!"

-Ryan

UnVme7
01-29-2016, 12:02 AM
In similar news:
http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/member-sales-trade-feedback/960820-probstein-bbcardsniper.html

Arizona Diamondbacks closer Brad Ziegler recounts how and why he shill bid auctions through Probstein on eBay.

That's really nothing new. Prob is a shady shill bidding fool. Has been for years, which is why I don't participate in his auctions.

Brian Van Horn
01-29-2016, 12:36 AM
Do you think a column in a spreadsheet is the gospel? I'm going to bet that Don Steinbach's widow was not a hobby arch villain, although you've already condemned her.

Didn't see your name anywhere in that doc, Brian. No surprise.

Bill,

Sorry if I offended you, but if you go back and review, including the background information of the person who reviewed and prepared the information, it seems to be a document that has been prepared after a lot of due diligence. I would love to be wrong, but the work that has been put in seems to be pointing in a direction I sincerely wish it would not. Is it possible a dummy account was put in Steinbach's widow's name? Yes. Either way it tarnishes the memory of Steinbach. The question now is whether there will be a lawsuit against Mastro, Legendary or both now or in the near future.

Beastmode
01-29-2016, 12:37 AM
WOW! Looks like pete's off the hook!!!

:):):):):) Now that's funny.

prewarsports
01-29-2016, 12:41 AM
When my wife and I were taking adoption classes a few years back a guest speaker who was a recovered meth addict came to speak to us. She had cooked meth with her children in the home for years and exposed them to horrible risks. After losing her children she got her life back on track and after about 5 years she got them back. Everyone gave her a standing ovation. I just sat there and wondered where the standing ovations were for all the good parents out there that had never abused their children to begin with!

I have no problem at all with the outing of the bad guys in the hobby. None at all. It might not be a bad idea to also give some credit to the large number of collectors, dealers or auction houses who's names were NOT on that list but active in the hobby at the time as well.

Maybe we can wear a badge at next years National :)

Beastmode
01-29-2016, 12:44 AM
Can someone answer this; Is shilling against the law, and if so, can someone post that law here or reference it? We all know it's wrong, but what does the law say.

1952boyntoncollector
01-29-2016, 12:52 AM
Can someone answer this; Is shilling against the law, and if so, can someone post that law here or reference it? We all know it's wrong, but what does the law say.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90180


been discussed ad nauseum

Beastmode
01-29-2016, 12:53 AM
[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/arts/trials-begins-in-art-forgery-case-against-knoedler-gallery.html?_r=0[/URL]

And it's only going to get worse for AH's. This case may establish liability for AH's that sell forgery's and fakes.

Beastmode
01-29-2016, 12:56 AM
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90180


been discussed ad nauseum

Thank You. Good reference.

Brian Van Horn
01-29-2016, 01:20 AM
I guess Peter J. Nash and his Hauls of Shame site is running a little behind this bit of news. I was also surprised no mention on the site of REA being sold. Did something happen to him?

Mark
01-29-2016, 01:41 AM
When my wife and I were taking adoption classes a few years back a guest speaker who was a recovered meth addict came to speak to us. She had cooked meth with her children in the home for years and exposed them to horrible risks. After losing her children she got her life back on track and after about 5 years she got them back. Everyone gave her a standing ovation. I just sat there and wondered where the standing ovations were for all the good parents out there that had never abused their children to begin with!

I have no problem at all with the outing of the bad guys in the hobby. None at all. It might not be a bad idea to also give some credit to the large number of collectors, dealers or auction houses who's names were NOT on that list but active in the hobby at the time as well.

Maybe we can wear a badge at next years National :)

I admit that I was relieved not to see that the names of the people who I deal with more or less regularly.

Stampsfan
01-29-2016, 01:56 AM
I get what you're saying, but when you have access to a database as Mastro and Allen did, you can do anything you want with it. There's no guarantee emails were sent to high bidders to notify them.

Put another way, do we think their receptionist was part of the shill bidding conspiracy? That seems unlikely.

Bill

Exactly. It's pretty easy to remove emails from a database, for inactive, dormant accounts... or whatever qualification you'd want to put on the selection criteria. As an IT guy, we do it all the time when refreshing non-Production data from a Production database. This is so people don't receive emails from Test (non-Prod) environments and think the emails they receive are real.

Iron Horse
01-29-2016, 02:14 AM
Wonder what if any affect this will have on auction houses from here on out?
Most likely none, but lets see.

Rich Klein
01-29-2016, 03:18 AM
I have had some email conversations with Rob and I agree with him that I probably should have phrased differently

I do want to say I pointed out in his case that 2002 is far away from 2016 and the split with Mastro may not have occurred year. I don't remember off the top of my head when it did, But there has been an evolution in Rob since the split. It was just interesting he was mentioned but that was 15 years ago and REA did pioneer must of the updated auction software to prevent things like this from occurring.

There is also the matter of who released this information and how and why it was released. *Note -- not the government releasing*.

I will continue to disagree with him that his retirement is not a hobby news story. Look, when you are the head of the most esteemed auction house (look at the REA threads on this board) and the auction carries your name, yeah it's kind of important when you pass the baton. I know Brian, I bought stuff from Brian when he ran Sterling and he was great to deal with. Brian will do fine and I wish Rob all the best in his retirement.

This whole sequence of events is probably just coincidental but an interesting way to start 2016

Rich

PS Peter Spaeth emailed me and asked about why I did not mention Dave Forman -- I pointed out I glanced at this list and did not cover every name.

butcher354435
01-29-2016, 03:51 AM
Someone asked if the victims have been contacted...

I'm on the victim list and have never been contacted.

Joshchisox08
01-29-2016, 08:22 AM
Everyone does something they regret once in a while.

My son's mother :mad: What the hell was I thinking :eek:

Joshchisox08
01-29-2016, 08:26 AM
Garth Guibord
Actually, no. When a reserve is included, the bidders are aware of it. In this case, it's clearly deceptive. It's doesn't take a degree in ethics to see that.


I think the key word is ethics in this statement. Lawyer......ethics............ethics............la wyer.

Just when I was warming up to you Pete......... Please tell me that you're not a family court lawyer though. Then I could care less. Those are the ones that directly piss me off the most.

I think you can basically now be known as the Jason Giambi of this site. You admitted it and thus will take less flack. You will also be commended for owning up to it rather than hiding behind lies. It will be a mute point, it will all blow over. Now I'd like to know who the other's are on the site that aren't owning up !!

trobba
01-29-2016, 08:51 AM
Over, at least, the last 4 years I was advised and urged to not make a post like this so this comes as a great relief to me that I can finally write this. There is nothing noble in my decision to do this since my name is out there as a consignor with Mastro and associated with items which were identified as shilled but I feel I owe an explanation to those who were harmed and to those who call me a hobby friend. I made a mess so I have to clean it up.
During roughly 2005 to 2009 we consigned a few hundred thousand dollars worth of material to Mastro. Our consignments generally consisted of our more expensive inventory since that type of material did not seem to do as well on eBay—our only other outlet for retail sales AND auction houses like Mastro seemed to be setting record prices. At some point after less than stellar auction results and being completely incensed and frustrated, we decided to protect items rather than allowing them to sell below what we felt were fair values.

At no point did we ever conspire with anyone at Mastro on those bids. We never knew who was bidding on our items or what their bids were. I have no recollection which of our consignments I was the one to place a bid and which my former business partner bid on but since he is no longer here I have to take responsibility for our actions. Sometimes a top all would be placed and other times we would bid incrementally so as to not open ourselves up to being shill bid, as ironic as that might sound. In each instance our bids were made with the intent to buy back the item and a willingness to pay the buyer’s premium, as we did each time we bought back a lot. It did not feel right doing this but I never thought of it as being illegal.

Not to make excuses but the practice described above, of protecting a lot, was very prevalent at that time even among collectors. I will not call out anyone by name but some are current posters here who would frequently ask me to bid up their auction listings on eBay. I now understand why the government considers this shill bidding however our intent with Mastro was never to defraud anyone but to simply protect what was ours. Obviously we should not have consigned if we were not willing to accept that our items might fall far short of our expectations. I cannot take back what I was a part of but I can be a better person going forward. I am sorry to those I harmed and to those who I have disappointed.

As a side note the list may not be as accurate as the government might think. There are a couple errors that I know of in regards to items identified as my consignments according to my records.

Greg

I am completely baffled by this:

"Sometimes a top all would be placed and other times we would bid incrementally so as to not open ourselves up to being shill bid, as ironic as that might sound. In each instance our bids were made with the intent to buy back the item and a willingness to pay the buyer’s premium, as we did each time we bought back a lot"

Are you saying you placed a card(s) in an auction and placed a top all bid on that lot so you would win the auction no matter what? What possible purpose does that serve? You lose out on the buyer and/or seller commission and have to pay for the lot?

On another note, I would also suggest "protecting" a lot would be the same as "shilling" a lot. It may have been common practice, but it was unscrupulous.

Auctions have an inherent amount of risk associated with them, protecting or shilling lots removes some of that risk but at the expense of creating artificial, public prices (as mentioned by several other previous posters).

Rob G$theil

e107collector
01-29-2016, 08:58 AM
Does anyone think there is a possibility that the Fed's may look into bidding practices/records of current auction houses, that are run by people who are listed as shill bidders?

I'm stunned by some of the names on the list, to say the least.

Tony

byrone
01-29-2016, 09:03 AM
What a shame.

As someone who prefers business be left to it's own as much as possible, these auction businesses show the need for regulation/enforcement/oversight...at least more so than has been in the past

bunst
01-29-2016, 09:07 AM
Is Forman the same one from SGC? And can anyone see if those shilled lots were SGC cards?

Has this been answered? It's a long thread so I may have missed it.

Peter_Spaeth
01-29-2016, 09:14 AM
Has this been answered? It's a long thread so I may have missed it.

Yes, Dave Forman is the owner of SGC, he may also be President but I am not sure. He and his brother Steve are identified on the list in several places.

ADDED I have not looked up the lots so I don't know the answer to the second part of your question.