the list (of criminals) is revealed

[drcy]

Dentist classes via coupons reminds me of when I was in a lobby browsing a magazine for professional women that was filled for ads for vasectomy services and how to become a life coach courses. It confirmed my worst fears.

[Vintagefun]

What are you implying with this comment? Are you stating the only unethical people on the list are the shillers and not the consignors?

The consignors' items were shilled because they wanted it shilled and worked with someone else to get it shilled (just as Peter described).

I did a pretty quick scan of the list. In the instance where Mastro is the shill, like on most Fritsch items...is the theory that Fritsch was involved, or that Mastro took it upon himself to shill...especially if he knew the bidder had deep pockets and interest, like Hal Steinbrenner?

In many cases a consignor seemed to have a common and designated shiller. But in the cases where Mastro is the shill, I'm just wondering if his greed is u fairly reflecting on a legit consignor...or if pretty much everyone on the Consignor/Shill list is a bad apple to be avoided.

[Exhibitman]

Kenny,

Your bids on the particular lot I won that is on this list didn't affect the price at all. You didn't drive me up. You were probably the 3rd high bidder. Had you been the underbidder, it wouldn't list my name in the "victim" column. You bidding against me is just healthy competition. Nothing wrong with that. But after you had maxed out (if you were even bidding on this lot), I was shilled up another $2,000+ of pure shill bids that had nothing to do with you.

I'm just happy the list is now public because I should be receiving a check any day now from Doug Allen as restitution, right? Yep.

Also, the main reason all these scumbags on the list aren't responding in this thread is that they're too busy spending everyone's money they made, consequence-free, from all of this. I'm guessing quite a few of them made deals to tell the truth about Mastro and Allen that got them off the hook, but also keeps them from posting here about any of it. This is especially true of the employees of Mastro and Legendary that many of us know well and consider to be friends. They haven't posted here because they are guilty.

The real lesson here is that crime absolutely does pay, and pay very well. So, congrats to all you silent scumbags who are reading this in your huge houses bought with money you stole. Sleep well tonight, douchebags!

-Ryan

Bravo!

And I would add a special raised middle finger to those gutless hypocrites who had friends bid with Mastro or Legendary Auctions for them while publicly decrying the fraud problem.

[HRBAKER]

NO ONE deserves to be a victim of fraud or to be cheated period.
IMO if you continue to do business with people who you know are dishonest or have strong reason to believe are unsavory and find yourself a victim, the biggest thing you have to complain about is your lack of self-control.

[steve B]

Eric in theory you are right, buyers cannot lawfully collude to suppress price any more than sellers can collude to inflate it. Basic antitrust law. Of course, as a practical matter, it's going to be viewed as less important than seller price-fixing.

Unless of course you're part of a group of stamp dealers that colluded over large lots offered at auction over several years AND were dumb enough to put the agreements in emails and/or written letters. Then fired an employee who wrote many of the emails and letters and who delivered copies to the authorities after his firing.


Yes, that actually happened and a number of people got into a lot of trouble.
http://www.ag.ny.gov/press-release/settlements-announced-lawsuit-alleging-bid-rigging-conspiracy-postage-stamp-auctions

Done verbally between friends it's probably way too hard to prove in most cases.

I did however see it caught at a live auction. One bidder in the front row turned to his competition and said "let me have this one and you can have the next" Right within hearing of the auctioneer. :eek: The auctioneer stopped the auction, gave them a stern warning that he could lose his license and they could be arrested and that if they wanted to make deals they should do it outside before bidding. The the item was restarted at the former high bid with the offender getting credited for the next advance which he never made. The third bidder came in then, and got a quick thank you and the lot eventually sold for around $40 more.

Steve Birmingham

[pgellis]

So, let me get this correct:

- Auction house owners don't want to have open reserves because it will look bad and hurt future business if any/many lots go unsold. So how does going to prison look for future business ventures?

- As for consignors, if I am to believe that they actually paid the BP for any of their items that they ended up being the high bidder on, how can it be a good business decision to pay 20% BP on your own item instead of letting it go for a little less than you had invested into it? I know it depends on which is greater, the BP or the loss? But if you "bought" your own item back, you still have it and have to try to sell it again later.

- For those caught this time, but only once, really? This is just the data for a single AH over just a 3 year period. Imagine if it were opened up to all AHs for the past 10-15 years? Just this once? Just like the drunk driver that was caught and he says, "this was the only time I drove drunk". Yeah right.

- Can you imagine what it would look like if you could get this type of information for eBay:eek::eek::eek:

[keithsky]

With over 500 posts it's really clear to see that this stuff affects us all about getting ripped off. My opinion as far as the ones on the list from PSA coming on here and voicing there opinion on why they are on the list is slim to none. Anytime anything has come up involving PSA or JSA on anything I have never seen anyone come on and defend themselves. Which shows me they either don't care what people say on here as long as they are raking in money or they just think we are just a bunch or winers and it's not worth there time. Just my opinion. I have read 90% of the posts so if I missed one of them coming on then I appologize.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unless of course you're part of a group of stamp dealers that colluded over large lots offered at auction over several years AND were dumb enough to put the agreements in emails and/or written letters. Then fired an employee who wrote many of the emails and letters and who delivered copies to the authorities after his firing.


Yes, that actually happened and a number of people got into a lot of trouble.
http://www.ag.ny.gov/press-release/settlements-announced-lawsuit-alleging-bid-rigging-conspiracy-postage-stamp-auctions

Done verbally between friends it's probably way too hard to prove in most cases.

I did however see it caught at a live auction. One bidder in the front row turned to his competition and said "let me have this one and you can have the next" Right within hearing of the auctioneer. :eek: The auctioneer stopped the auction, gave them a stern warning that he could lose his license and they could be arrested and that if they wanted to make deals they should do it outside before bidding. The the item was restarted at the former high bid with the offender getting credited for the next advance which he never made. The third bidder came in then, and got a quick thank you and the lot eventually sold for around $40 more.

Steve Birmingham

Right. There is some other prominent example too that I cannot think of. PS I have actually seen an email from a prominent collector to several other collectors who were bidding on similar items looking to allocate certain cards in an upcoming auction so they would not bid against each other. It probably happens with some degree of regularity.

[tbob]

I have a few questions for veteran collectors and dealers, as I am just a simple business owner who collects but has never spent more than $800 on anything hobby related. And btw, I'm not, in any way, trying to mitigate was has happened. One of the names on that list makes me believe I was probably a victim myself once.

But as veterans of the hobby, when you placed bids on high profile stuff at major auctions, wasn't there a voice in the back of your noggins that told you it was very likely some sort of shilling was occurring, yet you bid anyway because if the price was what you deemed fair, you told yourself you could live with it? Don't even us amateurs believe that when we're bidding on ebay?

Are you veterans really shocked at all by any of this? If you're in this hobby to make a living, it's just way too easy to cheat, and I imagine for many it becomes almost a necessity for survival. The rewards far, far outweigh the punishment. And it's been that way for decades. And frankly, I don't see how this changes anything. So one or two high profile guys do a little jail time. Do you think for one minute that's going to prevent shilling in the future? I bet there are some who hope prices drop at the major auction houses just so they can swoop in for the bargains! And do veteran collectors with large holdings really mind if prices are artificially inflated? I wonder.

The people here are incredibly knowledgeable about this hobby. This is an amazing website - it's one of the very few (but by far the best) places on the internet which acts as any sort of check to the rampant dishonesty in this hobby. Just reading the stuff here has saved me a ton of money, and I appreciate the efforts enough to buy many here an adult beverage if I ever ran into you! But should it come down to one free website run by people who care to police the entire industry? I just don't understand why no one has ever put together some sort of association that polices this hobby. It's way overdue, and obviously necessary.

Fair questions. I've stayed quiet on all this but I've decided to put in my 2 cents. As one of the older collectors in the hobby, I've been been bidding through auction houses for over 30 years. Yes, I've suspected shilling was taking place and hated it, but there were veteran collectors bidding, suspecting shilling yet continuing to bid because the final winning bid was a fair one, or even a good deal. So the answer to your question is, yes. I have won a number of cards through Mastro over the years and I know I paid too much, but sometimes you just gritted your teeth and accepted that you got what you wanted at a price you considered reasonable.
With regard to the names of the shilling list, I spotted names like Peter Calderon whom I consider a friend and whom I have always trusted and respected and others that I consider hobby friends who I have had private selling experiences with that were good and fair transactions. I also saw a few others who I considered to be arrogant a@@holes whom I disliked for their attitudes and lack of character. and anyone who knows me well knows exactly who I am talking about. I had no surprise seeing their names pop up on the lists. A real mixed bag.
As far as the post about the collector who taught the students about card collecting and the hobby, my suggestion would be to quickly point out the true hobbyists and collectors who are absolutely great people, great to know, great to deal with, and great people in general. I have met (many in person, many more through Net54 and its predecessors) so many collectors and collector/dealers and dealers over the past 30 years that I know they are the backbone of the hobby. All ages, all backgrounds, all over our country. Tell your students about them. They are the REAL reason the hobby survives.
Finally with regard to SGC, I am one of those collectors who was sickened by the Forman revelations, not because I expected more from him, but because I have a huge number of pre-war cards in SGC holders. I always liked the customer service, the way the cards were displayed in the holders and what I felt was more accurate grading of the cards than other TPG companies. If SGC goes away, I'll still have the cards (and I always bought my cards for the cards not the holders anyway) and they will still mean the same to me, even if the prices might dip without the company in existence anymore. I also have a large number of PSA cards and I always knew that a PSA 5 would bring more than an SGC 60 in the pre-war market but that's life.
Finally, I realize that there were different reasons for the shilling, sometimes it was out of business greed, sometimes because of events like divorces which eliminated collections and forced sales, friendships, etc., but it still didn't justify it. For those who posted and explained why, I'm willing to accept it and go on, we all make mistakes. But it wasn't right.
Cheers
Bob M.

[RichMcGillicuddy]

It isn't rocket science. It becomes real when they start naming names.

Realize the list is after the evidence was shredded and represents couple of years worth of auctions about 8 years ago. I seem to remember getting those catalogs all the way back in the 1990's. If you think this didn't happen before and after those dates and still happens every week on eBay, stick your head back in the sand. It would be scary to get that information from eBay across the last 20 years.

Also, for the group that says "I don't have a problem with that". It distorts pricing across the whole market.

At the end of most auctions, that email goes out stating "over X million sold". Or "highest price ever for X". They have a vested interest in higher sales. The grading companies, same thing. PSA XXX sold for some new high...

It is a thinly transacted market (pre war). Some cards may have 1's or 10's data points a year (or less) of pricing data points (I don't have a membership to VCP but that would be an interesting stat to gather on the # of data points/year for some of the commonly shilled items).

Paying a BP (on a shill in the scenarios provided earlier) to get a 50%-100% bump in price makes perfect sense when the market always goes up and you could protect your investment to sell higher later.

Does everything always sell for more, no. I've had mixed results. I would expect that. But I don't have friends protecting my investment.

Does it happen 100% of the time, no. But it is much wider than the glimpse that was provided in that list.

Will it stop me from bidding on cards, no. So ultimately, it won't stop until all the money stops flowing on cards at AH or brokers on eBay that are even suspected of participating. This information is years old and Legendary was still getting lots of activity and high prices all the way to the end.

My two cents... It has been a fascinating read...

Rich McGillicuddy

[slidekellyslide]

Right. There is some other prominent example too that I cannot think of. PS I have actually seen an email from a prominent collector to several other collectors who were bidding on similar items looking to allocate certain cards in an upcoming auction so they would not bid against each other. It probably happens with some degree of regularity.

When I see one of those "Let's share an auction lot" posts on Net54 I feel like that also falls under collusion.

[ullmandds]

When I see one of those "Let's share an auction lot" posts on Net54 I feel like that also falls under collusion.

i always kinda felt that way too...although it'd be a lot easier if u just wanted a card or two in a big lot!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

i always kinda felt that way too...although it'd be a lot easier if u just wanted a card or two in a big lot!!!!

We've discussed it before, and it's subtle, but there is a difference between pooling resources to win a lot and then divide it up (ok), and colluding not to bid on items at all so that others can win them (not ok). It's like the difference between a buyer's coop and buyers colluding to fix price. You have to look at each set of facts on its own merit.

[slidekellyslide]

i always kinda felt that way too...although it'd be a lot easier if u just wanted a card or two in a big lot!!!!

I know that's why most do it here, but I think it's close to the line of collusion. Clearly there are a lot of dealers here who would like to buy the whole lot and part it out. Sharing the lot most certainly lowers the pool of interested bidders.

[ullmandds]

But on the other hand...it seems lots where groups "collude" seem to sell at higher prices as individual collectors are usually willing to pay more for a card they want/need...and not have to deal with reselling the rest.

[Peter_Spaeth]

But on the other hand...it seems lots where groups "collude" seem to sell at higher prices as individual collectors are usually willing to pay more for a card they want/need...and not have to deal with reselling the rest.

Right. Think about it from the perspective of the consignor. If you have, say, a high grade low pop common that only a few guys are in the market for and they get together and say Joe you take this one we'll stay out and wait for the next one, the consignor is going to be livid. If you have a large lot with cards that appeal to different guys, who might not have bid at all because they don't want to pay for the whole lot and have to sell it off to get their one or couple of cards, then the consignor would be delighted if they pool their resources and bid even if it's collectively, because it's another bidder in the mix and probably one who is going to go pretty high.

[TheNightmanCometh]

I have passed on countless numbers of lots because I only needed a few cards and the price wasn't worth it. If the cards I want total $30 and the lot is selling for $50, why would I bid on it? Doesn't make sense.

So, I don't think it's colluding at all when a group of collectors get together and buy a lot and then distribute the lot among each other. Most of those guys would have never even bid on the lot if it was just them bidding on their own.

[sago]

I was at a live auction where two people start out bidding against each other, and then one stops and they split the lot. The auctioneer was ticked off. BTW, both of those people are on the list in this thread. One works for a major auction house, and one is involved in a grading company. I am not going to name them, as it's hearsay, but I spoke to the auction house owner afterwards and he confirmed that it happened. Definitely collusion.

How would he know? He is familiar with both of them, their bidding patterns, and they were sitting next to each other, when they spoke, and one of them stopped bidding. BION

[drcy]

There are cases of bidder collusion to suppress bidding and there are cases where a group of collectors each of limited financial means and collecting needs going into together/pooling together their funds to get a large group lot. Two different cases, and the latter may in fact raise the final winner price. The latter can allow bidders of limited financial means and specific collecting needs to enter the bidding where, due to the largeness/variety and expense of the lot, they would pass on the lot on their own.

[slidekellyslide]

I attend 50-75 live auctions per year, there are 4 dealers who are constantly colluding with one another. Lots of times it's to share a lot and other times it's an agreement to not bid against one another. They almost always come to me to get me to try and "share" with them when it comes to certain items like postcards or Husker football memorabilia. There is only one reason they do this. To save money. The auctioneers know this is going on. I have even had conversations with them and they know who it is and they know when it's going on. They don't do anything about it I guess because those 4 dealers also happen to be their best customers.

[Beastmode]

My suggestion may of been over-simplified, and I can understand why some of you are worked up. I've been about as vocal as anyone against shilling and retractors. Reference my post in June of last year (not sure how to link posts).

Quote:
..."Exactly. REA/Mile High/Memory Lane/Heritage/H&S....all have one thing in common; proprietary bidding software with no transparency. If you want to make an argument about shilling, start their first"



Everyone of us has probably been shilled, some of us multiple times. It's too dam easy for these scum to do this via the internet bidding platform. IMO, shilling is still rampant at AH's; less so on e-bay.

Here's my mental health bidding tips; just my opinions, as I'm primarily a buyer:

1. Assume your are going to be shilled if you bid at an AH. Place your bid as if your going to be shilled; makes your life so much more enjoyable when you win or lose.

2. If your max bid wins an auctions and you think the underbidder is a shiller, don't cry sour grapes, see rule #1. Lower your max next time so your competing against real bidders, not shillers.

3. Learn to enjoy coming in 2nd. I'm an aggressive bidder on cards I like, but I come in 2nd a lot. In all likelihood, shilllers have won several of these auctions, which is just fine with me as long as they paid the commission. This is a hobby, not surgery. If you bid enough, you start to get a feel where shillers will bid.

4. Follow up with your AH policy on reserve bids, consigner won bids, bid history, etc. Hold them to the fire, ask for clarification in writing. Read their fine print. Do nothing verbally.

5. Do not ever say the market was artificially inflated when your bid wins an auction and you may of been shilled. See rule #1 and 2. If your max is what you are willing to pay, then you just set the market my friend.

6. If anyone associated with your AH is on the "list", stay away.

Does shilling suck, yes. Is it illegal , yes. Did the shiller drive up the price, yes. Do you want to get heart disease stressing about shillers? No. Do you have countless free hours to go after these bastards, hire a lawyer and go to civil court? No. Then bid what you think the card is worth, then move on and let the shillers rot in hell. that's my point

[ullmandds]

Shill shillery shill shillery shill shill shillroo!

My suggestion may of been over-simplified, and I can understand why some of you are worked up. I've been about as vocal as anyone against shilling and retractors. Reference my post in June of last year (not sure how to link posts).

Quote:
..."Exactly. REA/Mile High/Memory Lane/Heritage/H&S....all have one thing in common; proprietary bidding software with no transparency. If you want to make an argument about shilling, start their first"



Everyone of us has probably been shilled, some of us multiple times. It's too dam easy for these scum to do this via the internet bidding platform. IMO, shilling is still rampant at AH's; less so on e-bay.

Here's my mental health bidding tips; just my opinions, as I'm primarily a buyer:

1. Assume your are going to be shilled if you bid at an AH. Place your bid as if your going to be shilled; makes your life so much more enjoyable when you win or lose.

2. If your max bid wins an auctions and you think the underbidder is a shiller, don't cry sour grapes, see rule #1. Lower your max next time so your competing against real bidders, not shillers.

3. Learn to enjoy coming in 2nd. I'm an aggressive bidder on cards I like, but I come in 2nd a lot. In all likelihood, shilllers have won several of these auctions, which is just fine with me as long as they paid the commission. This is a hobby, not surgery. If you bid enough, you start to get a feel where shillers will bid.

4. Follow up with your AH policy on reserve bids, consigner won bids, bid history, etc. Hold them to the fire, ask for clarification in writing. Read their fine print. Do nothing verbally.

5. Do not ever say the market was artificially inflated when your bid wins an auction and you may of been shilled. See rule #1 and 2. If your max is what you are willing to pay, then you just set the market my friend.

6. If anyone associated with your AH is on the "list", stay away.

Does shilling suck, yes. Is it illegal , yes. Did the shiller drive up the price, yes. Do you want to get heart disease stressing about shillers? No. Do you have countless free hours to go after these bastards, hire a lawyer and go to civil court? No. Then bid what you think the card is worth, then move on and let the shillers rot in hell. that's my point

[Steve D]

There are cases of bidder collusion to suppress bidding and there are cases where a group of collectors each of limited financial means and collecting needs going into together/pooling together their funds to get a large group lot. Two different cases, and the latter may in fact raise the final winner price. The latter can allow bidders of limited financial means and specific collecting needs to enter the bidding where, due to the largeness/variety and expense of the lot, they would pass on the lot on their own.

I still can not understand the rationale of combining different items together into one lot. A good one recently (about 1-2 weeks ago) really ticked me off. A 1971 Padres team-autographed baseball was combined with a 1975 Reds team-autographed baseball. I collect Padres items, and was very interested in the baseball, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay a premium for it because I'm also forced to also be bidding on a 1975 Reds (World Champions) baseball!

Steve

[drcy]

I still can not understand the rationale of combining different items together into one lot. A good one recently (about 1-2 weeks ago) really ticked me off. A 1971 Padres team-autographed baseball was combined with a 1975 Reds team-autographed baseball. I collect Padres items, and was very interested in the baseball, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay a premium for it because I'm also forced to also be bidding on a 1975 Reds (World Champions) baseball!

Steve

Resellers like everything but the kitchen sink variety lots (at bulk discount), collectors don't. My scenario #2 allows the collectors to join in on the bidding-- which is good for the consignor. Resellers like the lots because they break them down and resell at markup the smaller pieces to the same collectors.

And I agree that scenario #2 may point to the auction house bundling together the items poorly. Pairing a Madonna autographed corset with a 1957 OPC hocket set may not be the optimal pairing to maximize bidding.

"I don't know. There's this guy in Toronto."

[TheNightmanCometh]

I still can not understand the rationale of combining different items together into one lot. A good one recently (about 1-2 weeks ago) really ticked me off. A 1971 Padres team-autographed baseball was combined with a 1975 Reds team-autographed baseball. I collect Padres items, and was very interested in the baseball, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay a premium for it because I'm also forced to also be bidding on a 1975 Reds (World Champions) baseball!

Steve

Are you sure it wasn't just a lazy seller using a pic of both baseballs and only selling one of them? :D

[Vintagefun]

Shill shillery shill shillery shill shill shillroo!

Why take a C Note when I can take two

[mickeymao34]

It isn't rocket science. It becomes real when they start naming names.

Realize the list is after the evidence was shredded and represents couple of years worth of auctions about 8 years ago. I seem to remember getting those catalogs all the way back in the 1990's. If you think this didn't happen before and after those dates and still happens every week on eBay, stick your head back in the sand. It would be scary to get that information from eBay across the last 20 years.

Also, for the group that says "I don't have a problem with that". It distorts pricing across the whole market.

At the end of most auctions, that email goes out stating "over X million sold". Or "highest price ever for X". They have a vested interest in higher sales. The grading companies, same thing. PSA XXX sold for some new high...

It is a thinly transacted market (pre war). Some cards may have 1's or 10's data points a year (or less) of pricing data points (I don't have a membership to VCP but that would be an interesting stat to gather on the # of data points/year for some of the commonly shilled items).

Paying a BP (on a shill in the scenarios provided earlier) to get a 50%-100% bump in price makes perfect sense when the market always goes up and you could protect your investment to sell higher later.

Does everything always sell for more, no. I've had mixed results. I would expect that. But I don't have friends protecting my investment.

Does it happen 100% of the time, no. But it is much wider than the glimpse that was provided in that list.

Will it stop me from bidding on cards, no. So ultimately, it won't stop until all the money stops flowing on cards at AH or brokers on eBay that are even suspected of participating. This information is years old and Legendary was still getting lots of activity and high prices all the way to the end.

My two cents... It has been a fascinating read...

Rich McGillicuddy

will said

[drcy]

Also remember that Mastro was taped as saying (according to him) that most of the high grade cards in holders are altered. I, for one, think the whole high grade section of the hobby is a farce and a crock.

In psychology there is a concept called swarm intelligence. I've often said that humans often exhibit swarm stupidity.

[1880nonsports]

- you don't know it. It only bothers other people. It's the same when you're stupid.

[Leon]

- you don't know it. It only bothers other people. It's the same when you're stupid.

Now that is funny.

[4815162342]

Now that is funny.


+1

[mooch]

It's been pretty quite y'all. Do my fellow collectors feel, as I do, that we need some closure on this episode? We haven't seen many step up and take responsibility. There have been some serious charges leveled against TPGs in particular. Although millions are at stake for them, I see no response. As a small fish, why should I put in a $100-$300 plastic order with TPGs any more? As a non-dealer, and therefore a potential victim of shilling, I am feeling pretty bad about buying any card over $20 and the hobby in general. I feel like focusing my collecting on low-grade and cheap cards. Do other hobby collectors feel this way?

[mickeymao34]

If anyone have the time check out the air waves of the other Forum. They are refusing to post the List and saying posting of list breaks forum rules and denying members access to the list (with great reason). The Mods are out like secret police and the backlash is will noted. The last comment from a Mod in response to a question as to why does a Card forum have a on-going discussion about this and allowed to post the List. Trying to quell the restless, the Mod implies that Mastro was more of a Card auction house and the scandal is more isolated to cards vs game used items. Hilarious. The posts of the members sound like the disenchanted populous before the Revolution.

[bbeck]

Can't wait for the next Hauls Of Shame. Should be a good one.

[slidekellyslide]

If anyone have the time check out the air waves of the other Forum. They are refusing to post the List and saying posting of list breaks forum rules and denying members access to the list (with great reason). The Mods are out like secret police and the backlash is will noted. The last comment from a Mod, trying to quell the restless, goes as much to say that Mastro was strictly a Card auction house and the scandal is more to do with card auctions than game used auctions. Hilarious. The posts of the members sound like the disenchanted populous before the Revolution.

Dan Knoll worked for SCDA a game used authentication company. He appears as a consignor/shiller 97 times.

Here's an interesting thread from 2007.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=86809

[Leon]

Dan Knoll worked for SCDA a game used authentication company. He appears as a consignor/shiller 97 times.

Here's an interesting thread from 2007.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=86809

You put in a link and many (as I) lose about 5-10 minutes of our lives reading old posts. That said there is a lot of info on the board and some of it is interesting to say the least....

btw, it is ok to mention CU here....or whatever you want to with your name by your post.



.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We've been complaining about the censorship on the CU board forever. It's not going to change, from their perspective as a publicly traded company there is no upside to allowing controversial discussions that might reflect badly on PSA.

[glynparson]

"Can't wait for the next Hauls Of Shame. Should be a good one."


I think he should say my stuff may have been fake but at least I wasn't a shill bidder. Honestly don't give a rats arse what grandmaster b has to say about it. I am sure it will mostly be about the one freaking lot where Rob's name appears as a consignor. Too many people give him way to much credit. This thread was a much better read than however he will spin it.

[slidekellyslide]

You put in a link and many (as I) lose about 5-10 minutes of our lives reading old posts. That said there is a lot of info on the board and some of it is interesting to say the least....

btw, it is ok to mention CU here....or whatever you want to with your name by your post.



.

I'm not so sure he was referring to CU, he seems to be talking about game used items. That's why I referred to Dan Knoll, a game used authentication expert being on the list about 100 times and then posted a link to our forum from 2007 in which Doug Allen and others (including me) extoll the virtues of Knoll.

[Leon]

I'm not so sure he was referring to CU, he seems to be talking about game used items. That's why I referred to Dan Knoll, a game used authentication expert being on the list about 100 times and then posted a link to our forum from 2007 in which Doug Allen and others (including me) extoll the virtues of Knoll.

My statement was more general but see Peter S response right above for the reason on CU. .....Game Used Universe, you can say that too.

[slidekellyslide]

My statement was more general but see Peter S response right above for the reason on CU. .....Game Used Universe, you can say that too.

It's been so long since I've been to GUU that I don't know how they moderate over there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm not so sure he was referring to CU, he seems to be talking about game used items. That's why I referred to Dan Knoll, a game used authentication expert being on the list about 100 times and then posted a link to our forum from 2007 in which Doug Allen and others (including me) extoll the virtues of Knoll.

Oh my misunderstanding. In any event the general observation about CU is valid.

[pawpawdiv9]

I posted the link and thread over in the SGC forums on the 29th..no responses from anyone and only 24 views and has one of those emotion-icons noteing it as important.
Depiste little to no activity at all for years there, you know some folks read it.

[conor912]

You put in a link and many (as I) lose about 5-10 minutes of our lives reading old posts.

.

I got sucked into that 10 year old Hal thread for over half an hour.....quite the rabbit hole, indeed.

[earlywynnfan]

I've been thinking more about the "consignor/shiller" aspect of this list. I wonder if it's unfair to not have the entire auction's results in front of us while making judgements. Considering this list came directly from a piece of scum, isn't it possible he twisted it to make certain people look worse?

Let me give you an example:

I've always been into older game used bats, but I have a small budget. I like to put bids in on items I like when they're absurdly low, just as a way to watch. So it's no big stretch to assume I put 15-20 low bids on bats in each of these auctions. Usually, before the auction closes, I'll bump up my bids as much as I can, only to watch myself get blown away. Once a year or so, I'll actually win one!

Since the bat world is/was fairly limited at the time, let's suppose it's not a stretch to think that one guy consigned many of these bats. Thinking back to the biggest bat guy back then, a man I have nothing bad to say about, let's call him "Dave."

So in the records you will see many instances of "Ke.n Su.lik" bidding and not winning. If most of those items were consigned by "Dave," it would be very easy to create a partial list that only shows when Ke.n Su.lik has bid up--but not won-- items consigned by Dave! Especially when you DON'T list the items that I bid on from other consignors, nor do you list items I actually won and paid for.

Viola! Ke.n and Dave must be in cahoots as shillers!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've been thinking more about the "consignor/shiller" aspect of this list. I wonder if it's unfair to not have the entire auction's results in front of us while making judgements. Considering this list came directly from a piece of scum, isn't it possible he twisted it to make certain people look worse?

Let me give you an example:

I've always been into older game used bats, but I have a small budget. I like to put bids in on items I like when they're absurdly low, just as a way to watch. So it's no big stretch to assume I put 15-20 low bids on bats in each of these auctions. Usually, before the auction closes, I'll bump up my bids as much as I can, only to watch myself get blown away. Once a year or so, I'll actually win one!

Since the bat world is/was fairly limited at the time, let's suppose it's not a stretch to think that one guy consigned many of these bats. Thinking back to the biggest bat guy back then, a man I have nothing bad to say about, let's call him "Dave."

So in the records you will see many instances of "Ke.n Su.lik" bidding and not winning. If most of those items were consigned by "Dave," it would be very easy to create a partial list that only shows when Ke.n Su.lik has bid up--but not won-- items consigned by Dave! Especially when you DON'T list the items that I bid on from other consignors, nor do you list items I actually won and paid for.

Viola! Ke.n and Dave must be in cahoots as shillers!

It's the government's list, which Doug published for whatever reason. His own list is also included in the same pleading.

[earlywynnfan]

It's the government's list, which Doug published for whatever reason. His own list is also included in the same pleading.

OK, thanks. It's still incomplete, though.

[Bliggity]

It's the government's list, which Doug published for whatever reason.

I have been wondering about this since the thread started. His lawyer filed the document as an exhibit (one of many) to his sentencing memorandum. I understand his desire to address the restitution issue, which was his reason for including it, but the list easily could have been filed under seal, so that it wasn't available for public viewing. What possible reason would Doug or his attorney have to make this public? Do you think they just didn't realize the storm it would create, or figured that no one would go digging through the exhibits and find it? Or was it an "I'm going to take everyone else down with me" mentality? Or something else? I certainly don't think it did the client any favors in the realm of public opinion by exposing the list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have been wondering about this since the thread started. His lawyer filed the document as an exhibit (one of many) to his sentencing memorandum. I understand his desire to address the restitution issue, which was his reason for including it, but the list easily could have been filed under seal, so that it wasn't available for public viewing. What possible reason would Doug or his attorney have to make this public? Do you think they just didn't realize the storm it would create, or figured that no one would go digging through the exhibits and find it? Or was it an "I'm going to take everyone else down with me" mentality? Or something else? I certainly don't think it did the client any favors in the realm of public opinion by exposing the list.

I have the same bewilderment. My cynical view is that he wanted to take others down, but I don't know. He could not possibly have thought it would go under the radar.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have the same bewilderment. My cynical view is that he wanted to take others down, but I don't know. He could not possibly have thought it would go under the radar.

who cares why..i think everyone (non shillers) will agree they are glad its there

[Bliggity]

I have the same bewilderment. My cynical view is that he wanted to take others down, but I don't know. He could not possibly have thought it would go under the radar.

It's just so hard to say. I know that when I file sentencing memoranda or similar documents (yes, I'm a defense attorney, everyone fire away!) I wouldn't necessarily share the specific documents with my client ahead of time for him/her to review, although they would of course know the substance of what I was doing. And I'm sure that not many of my clients, even the more sophisticated ones, would understand how the federal filing system works or realize that something like that could be downloaded online and disseminated immediately. So perhaps it's just a case of attorney inadvertence in filing something publicly that he probably shouldn't have, and that Doug didn't specifically know about ahead of time. But there are many possibilities.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's just so hard to say. I know that when I file sentencing memoranda or similar documents (yes, I'm a defense attorney, everyone fire away!) I wouldn't necessarily share the specific documents with my client ahead of time for him/her to review, although they would of course know the substance of what I was doing. And I'm sure that not many of my clients, even the more sophisticated ones, would understand how the federal filing system works or realize that something like that could be downloaded online and disseminated immediately. So perhaps it's just a case of attorney inadvertence in filing something publicly that he probably shouldn't have, and that Doug didn't specifically know about ahead of time. But there are many possibilities.

Dan yeah anything is possible but that's a pretty big thing to have done inadvertently for an experienced attorney in a case where many filings are under seal. If I had to bet I would bet that Doug wanted it this way.

[Bliggity]

who cares why..i think everyone (non shillers) will agree they are glad its there

Well my point wasn't whether people are glad it's there (which I am). My point was just that it was very curious that this document just now gets released publicly many years into the case, and that it was released by Doug's own attorney. The timing is just interesting, and I was wondering out loud what the strategic advantage might be of that particular course of action.

[Exhibitman]

It's been pretty quite y'all. Do my fellow collectors feel, as I do, that we need some closure on this episode? We haven't seen many step up and take responsibility. There have been some serious charges leveled against TPGs in particular. Although millions are at stake for them, I see no response. As a small fish, why should I put in a $100-$300 plastic order with TPGs any more? As a non-dealer, and therefore a potential victim of shilling, I am feeling pretty bad about buying any card over $20 and the hobby in general. I feel like focusing my collecting on low-grade and cheap cards. Do other hobby collectors feel this way?

I have for quite some time. I find it far more enjoyable to own a run of lower grade cards than a single high grade one. Actually, if you like cards of the 1970s, there hasn't been a better time to collect them Even really nice 6-7-8 cards are going for less than the cost to slab them.

[Exhibitman]

There are cases of bidder collusion to suppress bidding and there are cases where a group of collectors each of limited financial means and collecting needs going into together/pooling together their funds to get a large group lot. Two different cases, and the latter may in fact raise the final winner price. The latter can allow bidders of limited financial means and specific collecting needs to enter the bidding where, due to the largeness/variety and expense of the lot, they would pass on the lot on their own.

+1. A joint effort is the only way I can get in on one of those ridiculous AH mega lots. If cheap enough I will buy a hundred cards to get five, but if not, I have to pass entirely. I know for a fact that these sort of joint bid efforts raise the hammer prices on lots because I've lost out on certain items that were underbid by the group that would not have been bid at all by the individuals involved.

[whitehse]

It's been pretty quite y'all. Do my fellow collectors feel, as I do, that we need some closure on this episode? We haven't seen many step up and take responsibility. There have been some serious charges leveled against TPGs in particular. Although millions are at stake for them, I see no response. As a small fish, why should I put in a $100-$300 plastic order with TPGs any more? As a non-dealer, and therefore a potential victim of shilling, I am feeling pretty bad about buying any card over $20 and the hobby in general. I feel like focusing my collecting on low-grade and cheap cards. Do other hobby collectors feel this way?


I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

what is 'cheap' sometimes becomes more expensive....1952 Mantle PSA 1s 3 years ago were a loot cheaper then they are now..

I do enjoy though in the past buying cards graded where the grading costs had to be more than the card...

[bcornell]

My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue.

Andrew -

One quick look at the list of shill bidding will make it apparent that your statement isn't correct. For example, look at all of the pricing of the items from the Feb-09 auction.

And this shill bidding affected pricing across the entire hobby. It doesn't matter if you were a Mastro bidder or not.

Bill

[Republicaninmass]

Would it matter if low grade collector got shilled $50 and Mr money bags got shilled $500?

I can't believe some of the posts here that because it affects 'big money players', its fine, they deserve it, and all the better for the Lower grade collector.

In my opinion, I don't care of it was $1, ONE time. It isn't right, and people should be held accountable.

[mybuddyinc]

It has been brought up a few times that this ** pathetic crap ** only effects high end collectors. I do agree that is the case in most situations. HOWEVER, I do also believe :rolleyes: it does effect “us” lower/middle end collectors in many situations:

Say someone was to bid on a lot of 500 middle grade, raw T206s. He wins the lot at $10,000 (which is in the “big boy” range). That's $20/card. If he's a dealer / flipper (which is fine), he could sell them at $25 a card and make a decent profit. And a buyer would be happy at that price.

NOW, say he was shilled up to $12,000. Then the cards are $24 each. He would then have to pass that “bump” onto his buyers. So, now, he's selling these “shilled” cards at $30 each.

You can say “only $5” difference. BUT it adds up over the long run of anyone's “low to mid grade” set. As well as, if not worse, giving a false, inflated worth of the cards (just like the “big” cards).

IMO, everyone's screwed. Very sad, indeed.

[mybuddyinc]

Would it matter if low grade collector got shilled $50 and Mr money bags got shilled $500?

I can't believe some of the posts here that because it affects 'big money players', its fine, they deserve it, and all the better for the Lower grade collector.

In my opinion, I don't care of it was $1, ONE time. It isn't right, and people should be held accountable.


++++ Basically what I was trying :rolleyes: to say.

[whitehse]

++++ Basically what I was trying :rolleyes: to say.

I can certainly see everyone's point in that shilling affects everyone in some way. I guess seeing some of these same names over and over again bidding mainly on high end items allowed me to come to the conclusion that this is a "rich person" problem because of the dollars that were being tossed around. After all, paying the 20% buyers premium on an item that was not sold was more than I am sure I spent in the last two years on my collection and not something I could afford to do.

I just am still not convinced that a low level collector like me has even been touched by this issue and that is probably because what I collect is not something that is in high demand and therefore, probably not as likely to be shilled.

But please know, I do understand your point and it remains to be seen how this will effect collectors like me.

[HobokenJon]

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/sgc-boss-claims-shill-bidding-in-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

[bbeck]

"Can't wait for the next Hauls Of Shame. Should be a good one."


I think he should say my stuff may have been fake but at least I wasn't a shill bidder. Honestly don't give a rats arse what grandmaster b has to say about it. I am sure it will mostly be about the one freaking lot where Rob's name appears as a consignor. Too many people give him way to much credit. This thread was a much better read than however he will spin it.

As I once said before , he is like the Jose Canseco of memorabilia, one of the worst offenders, people do not want to believe him, but in the end.....

[jbsports33]

We are just going to need to keep moving forward and enjoy ourselves in the hobby, sure a mark has been left - and people made bad choices that may have changed people. I know one thing - cards, photos and other items are always going to be there for us to treasure. My direction changed a few years back and noticed we had enough auction houses in the hobby and felt that it would be a difficult challenge to manage and run a business platform that could potentially have issues. I really try and keep it simple now, for me and the collectors/dealers that I work with.

Jimmy

[RichardSimon]

If anyone have the time check out the air waves of the other Forum. They are refusing to post the List and saying posting of list breaks forum rules and denying members access to the list (with great reason). The Mods are out like secret police and the backlash is will noted. The last comment from a Mod in response to a question as to why does a Card forum have a on-going discussion about this and allowed to post the List. Trying to quell the restless, the Mod implies that Mastro was more of a Card auction house and the scandal is more isolated to cards vs game used items. Hilarious. The posts of the members sound like the disenchanted populous before the Revolution.

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

[slidekellyslide]

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/sgc-boss-claims-shill-bidding-in-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

Uh...his brother was his shill bidder on nearly every item. What did Mastro say to him when his item didn't sell? Obviously if he wasn't doing the shilling he knew it was going on for a long time before any suit was brought forth.

[HobokenJon]

You're jumping to conclusions, as far as Forman's involvement in shill bidding, or lack thereof. We don't have enough facts to know what happened -- except we do know what he alleged six years ago. The best thing Forman could do now is tell his side of the story publicly. That's crisis management 101. That said, as I said before, he shouldn't have been trafficking in collectibles that SGC grades in the first place. If he'd stuck with that policy, he wouldn't be in this position -- nor would collectors who own SGC-graded cards. From a reputational standpoint, it also doesn't help that he's moving the company to Boca Raton, which is the world's largest unfenced penitentiary and the country's most notorious haven for penny-stock frauds, boiler rooms and other investment scams.

[Exhibitman]

You're jumping to conclusions, as far as Forman's involvement in shill bidding, or lack thereof. We don't have enough facts to know what happened -- except we do know what he alleged six years ago. The best thing Forman could do now is tell his side of the story publicly. That's crisis management 101. That said, as I said before, he shouldn't have been trafficking in collectibles that SGC grades in the first place. If he'd stuck with that policy, he wouldn't be in this position -- nor would collectors who own SGC-graded cards. From a reputational standpoint, it also doesn't help that he's moving the company to Boca Raton, which is the world's largest unfenced penitentiary and the country's most notorious haven for penny-stock frauds, boiler rooms and other investment scams.

Well, if the white collar fits...

So, how's BVG looking as a grading option?

[sago]

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread may be ending soon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread may be ending soon.

Yup.

[steve B]

I can certainly see everyone's point in that shilling affects everyone in some way. I guess seeing some of these same names over and over again bidding mainly on high end items allowed me to come to the conclusion that this is a "rich person" problem because of the dollars that were being tossed around. After all, paying the 20% buyers premium on an item that was not sold was more than I am sure I spent in the last two years on my collection and not something I could afford to do.

I just am still not convinced that a low level collector like me has even been touched by this issue and that is probably because what I collect is not something that is in high demand and therefore, probably not as likely to be shilled.

But please know, I do understand your point and it remains to be seen how this will effect collectors like me.


The other way it can affect collectors like you (And me too!) is in how the prices of the expensive stuff set the prices for the less expensive stuff.

The pricing for cards is primarily controlled by demand. Rarity can create demand, but within some limits. If it was otherwise, I'd be a lot closer to wealthy than I am.

So lets say a card is a certain price - like maybe a 52 Mantle. The first one I saw in person cost the dealer who had it around 900, either a record, or close to it at the time. And it was pretty nice. Since I had little money I hoped to someday "settle" for a beat one for maybe 100. Or, roughly 10% of a really nice one. And that ratio seems to hold since 1980, a fairly nice one a 6 or so is 30,000+ and a beater around 3-4000.

Now lets assume there's been rampant shilling at one major auction(Pretty easy assumption) - and that the prices they supposedly got are part of what drives the other auctions results. How much of the higher prices since 1980 are real? certainly not ALL of it, and certainly not none of it. Since the shilled results would add to each other over several years, lets say 25% of the current price level is from the shilling. By extension, the price of the "A" card is also inflated by 25%. So it should really be maybe 2500-3000.
AHA! you say. "But I still can't afford one so it doesn't affect me"

Well, the price of the Mantle helps drive the prices of the other high numbers by increasing the popularity of the set. And those prices in turn help drive the prices of the rest of the set. (And the rest of the 50's sets too. )So if we look at maybe half of that effect being seen in the lower numbered cards then the average commons that sell for $10 should really sell for 8-9. And that is at a level that affects pretty much everyone.

If you don't mind paying 12-25% more for cards, I've a whole bunch I'd happily sell at 25% over the current prices. :D

Steve Birmingham

[mickeymao34]

We are just going to need to keep moving forward and enjoy ourselves in the hobby, sure a mark has been left - and people made bad choices that may have changed people. I know one thing - cards, photos and other items are always going to be there for us to treasure. My direction changed a few years back and noticed we had enough auction houses in the hobby and felt that it would be a difficult challenge to manage and run a business platform that could potentially have issues. I really try and keep it simple now, for me and the collectors/dealers that I work with.

Jimmy

+1000000 on TOO many AHs!

[Duluth Eskimo]

I have sat back and read this whole thread and followed the Mastro proceedings since it began. I am not a big money guy so I never had the opportunity to bid in a Mastro auction so I really have no dog in this fight.

I do have to say I did bring a few quality items to Mastro at one of the Chicago National conventions which I thought would do well in their auctions but was literally laughed at by Doug Allen and told they don't deal with such small dollar items. Now these were very old, highly collectible items I received while working in Major League Baseball that I since sold for well over 1K each without having to give anyone a cut of the take. I just thought the treatment of a small collector by the big auction house was less than professional as Doug didnt need to laugh at the "low dollar" items I had but explain how it really was not worth their time.

Ok I will stop rambling and get to my point. My point is that I think the only people that are effected by this case is those with pockets full of money who can purchase these high end collectibles. The average collector was frozen out of most, if not all of the Mastro items and therfore was never effected by the shill bidding issue. I think the backbone of this hobby, the average collector IS and will continue focusing on lower grade sets and cheap cards because that is what they can afford. I know I gave up a long time ago trying to purchase one or two high grade cards when I realized I could build whole sets for what one high grade card will cost me. I agree with Mooch here in that true collectors, not investors will continue to purchase these less expensive cards and be just as happy with their collection. When collecting raw, less conditioned sets it is pretty safe to say rarely does shilling happen on a ex-mt raw 1963 Pete Richert card.

I think there these other message boards have had zero to no response to this issue because this issue does not directly touch the average collector. Seems to me this Mastro issue is rich people problems for the most part.

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

[RichardSimon]

Doug Allen is a douche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets.
I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

+1

[mickeymao34]

Doug Allen is a dousche bag and deserves all the negative treatment he gets and hopefully an a$$ raping at camp walk away post sentancing. He treated many people like he treated you and acted like he was a big shot and above everyone else at most shows. I have said the same thing about Mastro in the past.

Where you are wrong is when you say it only affected big money people. Many great collections went through Mastro and Steinbach, Mastronet, and Legendary. I plugged my nose and bid on many items. There are many "big money" and "small money" people on that list. Remember that the shilling probably affected the small time collector more as they were reaching to spend that much money on one or two items. I can't imagine how big that list would be if we knew the true extent of their crimes and all of the years.

Duluth speaks da truth. Spelled out like a hammer slamming down on a nail.

[jason.1969]

Am a low-grade collector (compared to typical N54 guys) who has 6 cards I've paid more than $100 for, with only my $450 DiMaggio above $150.

Here is where I do feel impacted...just not in the tens of thousands like others of you.

1. Had once imagined owning certain White Whale cards like a 52T Mantle. While the AHs dealt with the high grade ones, the prices of those definitely dragged the low end ones up with them.

2. Still hoping to own a 33G Ruth and 34G Gehrig. Reliant on TPGs to assure authenticity. But if ethics are that low, who knows...

3. Ditto for card doctoring.

4. While not necessarily the cause, the same bidding practices seen with Mastro are probably taking place with even the $25-$50 items I've won thru high volume eBay auctioneers. Greed is greed.

5. Though I don't buy as an investment or with any intent to sell, if scandals like this pop the card bubble, my own modest collection gets dragged down with it.

At the same time, show me anything that involves millions of dollars that hasn't already been completely corrupted. Doesn't make it right...just means it's no shock.

[keithsky]

Any comment from anyone else on the list yet?

[Stonepony]

Hauls of Shame site now reporting

[Leon]

Hauls of Shame site now reporting

At least the NY DAILY News article was correct from what I saw.
Nash reports a lot of completely made up lies. Absolute fairy tales. Just like when he took the 5th amendment over 20 times in in a court deposition, as to where he got fake memorabilia he consigned. Why would anyone take the 5th amendment when asked WHERE THEY GOT FAKE ITEMS? He made all of it himself is my understanding. And his association with John Rogers should land him in jail for a long time. I wonder if his outstanding lawsuits and recent personal bankruptcy will follow him to jail. Hopefully they will. He is a loser. As I just told someone, I actually stick up for losers a little bit. Without them it would be much more difficult to succeed. I predict bad things will happen to Nash because he does bad things and deserves everything he gets (as we all do, for that matter).

[Brian Van Horn]

Well, I just completed my reading of the New York Daily News article and the report on Hauls of Shame. I don't know if there is a chemical strong enough to remove the ooze and scum of the behavior that has transpired.

One note, however, is the quote in the Hauls of Shame article:

"The shill-bidding list was a hot topic in hobby circles over the weekend and one of the best observations we heard on the situation came from author and prominent Michigan attorney Ron Keurajian who told us, “There appears to be a continuing pattern of shill bidding, fraud, racketeering, and strong-arm tactics by the same core group of auctioneers, dealers, and authenticators all in an attempt to monopolize the sports memorabilia trade. Criminal prosecution under the RICO Act should be pursued by government and those who have been victimized should consider civil actions also allowed by the act.”

Pretty clear that although the messenger isn't well thought of on this board, the gentleman he interviewed, Ron Keurajian, paints an accurate picture of things to come.

This is going to be one ongoing and seemingly endless demolition derby.

[jbsports33]

I appreciate members sharing the lists and articles; I have been able to view some of the material. I would rather not read too much, so I think I have read enough and will move on with more positive things to talk about. I sure am glad we stuck to the shows and a bit of eBay over the years instead of giving all of our quality items to auctions.

Jimmy

[Snowman5520]

edited per name rules....no anonymous bashing

[sago]

With apologies to Mad Magazine and Wacky Packages:

New Halls of Blame article

Baseball forum website owner, Leon Luckey, who reportedly was in line for a Presidential Cabinet position until this website exposed the news that he once inhaled some helium out of a balloon, is now stuck running his site full of cronies and sycophants, and deleting this author's fake accounts.

In other news, Boston bar owner Rob Lifson, is reportedly retiring to the Cayman Islands, where he can freely access the billion dollars he possesses, acquired from the materials he stole from the Smithsonian when he was 8, including the first molecule formed during the Big Bang, as well as the only proof that man and dinosaurs roamed the Earth together.

As for this reporter, I will once again be leading the world's most successful rap group on a world tour, including:

Cooperstown (Valley)Forge (r)

[Brian Van Horn]

In accord with full disclosure, I have used the following from a current eBay listing to sum up my opinion on the subject matter of this thread:

[h2oya311]

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

[Exhibitman]

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Exactly my experience, Derek. I wondered why items I consigned the felonious selling crew went for eBay prices when other items were through the roof. Now I know.

BTW, Brian, that Ruth is a great card.

[4815162342]

So... what's the solution to this mess?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brian - thanks for finally posting the first baseball card (postcard) on a baseball card thread...

I just had another thought about why we should all be so outraged about this activity (and it's been mentioned before, but it irks me about the cyclical nature of it all):

> Shill bidding increases the perceived (and realized) prices for cards that we purchase
> Record prices for certain cards are achieved by [insert AH name here] (e.g., Mastro, Probstein, etc.)
> I now go and consign with said AH because of these amazing prices achieved and because I want/need to sell
> b/c I am not on the "favored list" or b/c I do not shill my auctions, my cards sell for crap and I am also crushed with a 10-20% "transaction charge" whether it's in the form of a buyer's premium or seller's premium or whatever.

I have consigned to several AH's before, but specifically one thinking that there was something golden about their process and marketing capabilities...only to have my cards sell for next-to-nothing. Perhaps I am not alone in this frustration...

Respectfully, the notion that your unshilled cards sell for "next to nothing" seems somewhat inconsistent with the oft-argued notion that shilling on some items raises prices across the hobby. The baseball card version of a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. That point has been made several times in this thread, and in many prior discussions.

[nolemmings]

So... what's the solution to this mess?

I doubt anything meaningful will happen to fix the problem unless legislation is passed and/or enforcement becomes more widespread. Like another stated however many posts ago, the pervasiveness of auction house shilling is not surprising.

There are of course transparency steps that Auction Houses could utilize, but won't, in some perceived name of privacy. As wonderful as this hobby can be, it is filthy, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Not trying to sound sanctimonious, but I would bet more people are worried about the financial impact it might have on their collections than on the company they keep.

[packs]

So... what's the solution to this mess?

I think the only solution is to make this practice so egregious that no one ever tries it again. That would mean ceasing all bidding with anyone associated with shilling. That would also mean ceasing all business with a TPG that contributed to the shilling, as well as making questionable conflict of interest decisions re: grading and selling their own cards. I'd also only bid in increments of one, which will drive down all prices and extend bidding longer, which will also probably drive away prospective bidders.

All in all it seems as though shilling will cost people (AH and TPGs) more money than they ever stood to gain. These opinions are meant to be taken broadly. I am not singling out any one person / company / business.

[stlcardsfan]

I just emailed this to Olbermann.

Keith should go to the sentencing and go into one of his diatribes / commentaries. Would pay to watch that.

[wondo]

I know Flip Filipowski invested in (bought) Mastro, but was there another Filipowski that actively worked there?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know Flip Filipowski invested in (bought) Mastro, but was there another Filipowski that actively worked there?

Flip's name is Andrew and Andrew is on the list so presumably the same.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Respectfully, the notion that your unshilled cards sell for "next to nothing" seems somewhat inconsistent with the oft-argued notion that shilling on some items raises prices across the hobby. The baseball card version of a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. That point has been made several times in this thread, and in many prior discussions.

right the fact that victim was 'legit' and was able to pay a certain price means that maybe in a direct deal that victim would of maybe paid that same price.....we also went through the scenario that another legit buyer may of been out there but the bidding slot was already taken by the first legit buyer so the card may not of even needed to be shilled..

perhaps the other poster here just thought their cards were worth more than they really are and was hoping for magic with an auction.....its not the first time a seller would overvalue a card and not sell it in a direct deal and then get disappointing results at an AH..

now if the the shilled cards were exactly the same card visually and from the same grade of a card that was submitted and sold for 'next to nothing'..then i think that's a different story..

but in reality the non shilled cards were being sold at legit market price...

[wondo]

Flip's name is Andrew and Andrew is on the list so presumably the same.

Peter,

Thanks. The reason for the question was I vaguely recall talking to a Filipowski on the phone at Mastro's and it sure as heck wouldn't be some guy worth $100+ million. Just can't verify or 100% prove it wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter,

Thanks. The reason for the question was I vaguely recall talking to a Filipowski on the phone at Mastro's and it sure as heck wouldn't be some guy worth $100+ million. Just can't verify or 100% prove it wrong.

A son or other relative perhaps?

[conor912]

So... what's the solution to this mess?

Keep in mind that this is in no way isolated to our hobby. This is a systemic problem with phone/internet auctions across as many hobbies as have them. The fruit is just too low hanging. And, to continue my tree analogy, the roots of the auction industry, TPG industry, and collectors' love for this hobby are so intertwined, that at this point paring back any one too much may kill all three.

[Rich Klein]

If anyone who accepts advertising money refuses ads from people (or their employers) mentioned in the list

Rich

[Snapolit1]

One thing for some yutz on eBay supporting his buddy with a few fake bids. Quote another for someone who runs an auction house to be an active participant in fraud. I'd be awfully concerned about class action lawsuits if I was one of these guys.

[Yoda]

After all this horror, intrigue, second-guessing, finger pointing and what else, it just occurs to me that the themes underlying the whole sordid Mastro business are just those old human traits of greed, jealousy and hubris which turned what seemed, when I first got involved outside of my boyhood, from a pleasant, harmless hobby into something that has taken on a life of its' own. My one comforting thought is that, where I am right now, they aren't making any more pre-war cards (real ones, anyhow) and I still love looking at them. John

[Tennis13]

Hello All. I am a New Jersey-based semi-serious collector. I am the owner of a few, higher-end graded 1933 & 1934 Goudeys. I am obviously reading this board with keen interest. I collect with my dad, and we enjoy it -- it's nothing more, nothing less.

I was wondering, a few people had posted the links to some of these 2000+ auctions, and the actual products that were auctioned. Do these exist in a database somewhere? Has anyone done the work over the years to identify the exact memorabilia for each of these auctions (maybe DoJ or FBI has published this)? How could I go about identifying each of these auctioned items in a timely fashion?

I have read this document many times the past 48 hours. I have read most, but not all of the replies to this thread. A few things jump out. Yes, there are typos in this document. I believe that's because the filing is from the defense, not the prosecution. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm also not as entrenched in this industry as many of you are. I have been Googling as many of the shill bidders to try to unravel and connect the dots across various industries. The vertical integration on the business front is quite astounding, given the audacity that these people have, and the connections they have to other industries! I'm really intrigued to investigate and get to the bottom of this.

Thanks for your help.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As has been mentioned several times, the main document people are focused on was created by the government.

[ElCabron]

As has been mentioned several times, the main document people are focused on was created by the government.

You continue to post in a thread titled "the list (of criminals) is revealed," where the list it's referring to is one you are specifically named as one of the criminals.

-Ryan

[sago]

I was wondering, a few people had posted the links to some of these 2000+ auctions, and the actual products that were auctioned. Do these exist in a database somewhere? Has anyone done the work over the years to identify the exact memorabilia for each of these auctions (maybe DoJ or FBI has published this)? How could I go about identifying each of these auctioned items in a timely fashion?

Hi,
This should get you started. The archived snapshots may contain the auctions listed, and you can plug in the descriptions.

D@v1D
https://web.archive.org/web/20070101000000*/http://mastroauctions.com

[batsballsbases]

You continue to post in a thread titled "the list (of criminals) is revealed," where the list it's referring to is one you are specifically named as one of the criminals.

-Ryan

+100
I to feel that you should take a little time off Peter. At least your friend Ron has made one comment and gone away. But you continue to act like you were just "used" You are on the list for better or worse and many people think much less of you now. Remember a Lawyer with a big mouth is no worse than one with a small brain. Lick your wounds and stay quiet for awhile...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Al S@meo@e

[Peter_Spaeth]

You continue to post in a thread titled "the list (of criminals) is revealed," where the list it's referring to is one you are specifically named as one of the criminals.

-Ryan

b

[Tennis13]

Hi,
This should get you started. The archived snapshots may contain the auctions listed, and you can plug in the descriptions.

D@v1D
https://web.archive.org/web/20070101000000*/http://mastroauctions.com

Thank you for this. I have seen it alluded to -- but not backed up with specific documentation anywhere -- is there any firm documentation that quantifies how much, if any, financial backing Mastro gave during the creation of PSA, and whether he ever owned any equity in that company, and for how long?

[ElCabron]

Sanctimonious people like you are not going to intimidate me. If you have never made a mistake in your life, then you are a better man than I am, congratulations. To repeat, a friend used my ID to place a very low bid on one lot in one auction and paid thousands to get it back when it did not sell. Nobody was hurt, nobody was run up. Knowing what I know now, I would not have allowed it, and I am sure in the context of today Ron would not have asked. But what's done is done. I've fully disclosed what happened, I have nothing to hide, and I don't really care what you or the other perfect people here say. If you don't like it, put me on ignore, or ask Leon to ban me see where that gets you.

Oh, stop. Now you're just being shilly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

+100
I to feel that you should take a little time off Peter. At least your friend Ron has made one comment and gone away. But you continue to act like you were just "used" You are on the list for better or worse and many people think much less of you now. Remember a Lawyer with a big mouth is no worse than one with a small brain. Lick your wounds and stay quiet for awhile...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Al S@meo@e

x

[Jason]

^^^^ If it walks like a entitled jackass and talks like a entitled jackass. Nice comment on the ask Leon to ban me and see where that gets you. I think a ban from the live auction bst is at least in order.

[batsballsbases]

See my post to Ryan. I don't need your advice, thank you.

I did but I guess even stupid Lawyers or let me re phrase that stubborn ones dont take anyone elses advice even when its good advice.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[BBSD]

Peter- Have you let Ron or anybody else use your ID to bid in other auctions?

[Beastmode]

oh, stop. Now you're just being shilly.

:):):)

[leaflover]

As one "Flipper" said to the other......"This shilling is killing me."

[68Hawk]

Daniel Enright


It's nauseating.

What I'd like, and what doesn't really ever happen, is for the big players - those directly involved in the activity described, or their buddies who hang with them - like Leon Luckey, to get down and dirty with us and describe the activity in full.
Tell us when, how long, what the pathetic reasoning was, and how you managed to excuse the behavior to yourselves and your hangers on, while completely disregarding the financial, emotional, and ethical toll you handed out to so very very very many???
Did you sleep well at night? Did you not have anxiety, or at least a little throw up rising to think about the hundreds and thousands of people you screwed over? Time and again.....

I find it so hard to believe you're sitting there even now, reading all these posts, and pretending in your personal life you're a good person. When you tell your wife or kids something about life, about how you treat people, what's worth fighting for, what's right or wrong.......and you have participated in violating your fellow man - many who in encounters think you are their friends - of money and time and experiences they had heavily invested in.

Why do you remain silent?
Why can't you step up now and show the loved one's in your lives you can be more than the basest of human compulsions?

I'm directing this part at you Leon, and the other Leon's in this hobby.
You've covered for big time hobbyests for many years, telling everyone not to believe everything that was whispered, that was spilled......

Are you too soiled in all this to not want to come clean.
Are those friends you made in this hobby so much better people than the ones who have been ripped off?

I never post on this forum anymore, not for many years, because I got run off.
Told I was too negative.
That's because I asked for people to act in a way that was decent, that could be respected.
Sure, easy to tell one guy to piss off.

How about the foxes come out and tell us how many chickens they ate while we weren't watching.

[Leon]

Your post is nauseating to me!!


I never shilled, never had anyone shill for me. Maybe you should direct your angst towards the culprits? I was a victim and, if the other years were seen, I bet I was a victim many, many more times. And do you really think if I did something wrong that someone (like you) wouldn't have turned on me? I sleep well at night, I hope you do with your ignorant statements. I did stick up for some of the culprits, before evidence was shown, and I was wrong and made mistakes in that area. But I never joined in their reindeer games and don't remember being asked to... Once proven wrong then all bets off and I hope they get what they deserve. BTW, I don't just post about it. I did something. I wrote a letter.. Did you?


And, If BY reading the last 500+ posts doesn't help you understand what went on, I don't think I can help you. As for you not posting anymore, why lie? Over the last 3-4 mos you have posted plenty. Whatever you say is fine just quit lying.


Daniel Enright


It's nauseating.

What I'd like, and what doesn't really ever happen, is for the big players - those directly involved in the activity described, or their buddies who hang with them - like Leon Luckey, to get down and dirty with us and describe the activity in full.
Tell us when, how long, what the pathetic reasoning was, and how you managed to excuse the behavior to yourselves and your hangers on, while completely disregarding the financial, emotional, and ethical toll you handed out to so very very very many???
Did you sleep well at night? Did you not have anxiety, or at least a little throw up rising to think about the hundreds and thousands of people you screwed over? Time and again.....

I find it so hard to believe you're sitting there even now, reading all these posts, and pretending in your personal life you're a good person. When you tell your wife or kids something about life, about how you treat people, what's worth fighting for, what's right or wrong.......and you have participated in violating your fellow man - many who in encounters think you are their friends - of money and time and experiences they had heavily invested in.

Why do you remain silent?
Why can't you step up now and show the loved one's in your lives you can be more than the basest of human compulsions?

I'm directing this part at you Leon, and the other Leon's in this hobby.
You've covered for big time hobbyests for many years, telling everyone not to believe everything that was whispered, that was spilled......

Are you too soiled in all this to not want to come clean.
Are those friends you made in this hobby so much better people than the ones who have been ripped off?

I never post on this forum anymore, not for many years, because I got run off.
Told I was too negative.
That's because I asked for people to act in a way that was decent, that could be respected.
Sure, easy to tell one guy to piss off.

How about the foxes come out and tell us how many chickens they ate while we weren't watching.

[ElCabron]

Why in the world is Leon being attacked in this thread? I didn't see his name on that list and I haven't seen him defend anyone that's on it. But I've read plenty of posts about how so and so shouldn't be on the list because there's no way he'd ever do anything like that, only to find out that so and so was guilty. I've been asked to give the benefit of the doubt to guys on the list. I've been told not to jump to conclusions, because perhaps there's some logical explanation for someone's buddy to have bid on 80 of his friend's consignments. Perhaps he just really REALLY liked his collection, right? I've even had to read post after post about the topic of shill bidding by one of the shill bidders named on the list! And the whole time, anyone on the list could very easily come here and defend themselves and tell us about their innocence. But they won't because others are ignorantly defending them, and, more importantly, they are freaking guilty!

If you have issues with Leon, that's fine. In this particular thread, however, I can't understand why those issues would have to come up, other than to deflect form the original title and spirit of the thread. There are people not on the list that I don't like and have ripped me off, but there's no reason to bring them up here. Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.

Anyway, There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger here. It's not difficult to figure out where it should be directed. THERE IS LITERALLY A LIST OF THEIR NAMES!!!!

Let's start there and move on beyond the list after that. But let's not ignore the list or let it fade into the archive afterlife just because the thieves named in it are too cowardly to come here and speak for themselves.

Don't let this blow over and revert back to business as usual again.

-Ryan

[Exhibitman]

Why in the world is Leon being attacked in this thread? I didn't see his name on that list and I haven't seen him defend anyone that's on it. But I've read plenty of posts about how so and so shouldn't be on the list because there's no way he'd ever do anything like that, only to find out that so and so was guilty. I've been asked to give the benefit of the doubt to guys on the list. I've been told not to jump to conclusions, because perhaps there's some logical explanation for someone's buddy to have bid on 80 of his friend's consignments. Perhaps he just really REALLY liked his collection, right? I've even had to read post after post about the topic of shill bidding by one of the shill bidders named on the list! And the whole time, anyone on the list could very easily come here and defend themselves and tell us about their innocence. But they won't because others are ignorantly defending them, and, more importantly, they are freaking guilty!

If you have issues with Leon, that's fine. In this particular thread, however, I can't understand why those issues would have to come up, other than to deflect form the original title and spirit of the thread. There are people not on the list that I don't like and have ripped me off, but there's no reason to bring them up here. Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.

Anyway, There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger here. It's not difficult to figure out where it should be directed. THERE IS LITERALLY A LIST OF THEIR NAMES!!!!

Let's start there and move on beyond the list after that. But let's not ignore the list or let it fade into the archive afterlife just because the thieves named in it are too cowardly to come here and speak for themselves.

Don't let this blow over and revert back to business as usual again.

-Ryan

+1. Leon may well be the biggest tool in all the Hobby [ or not :p ] but there is not a shred of information that he was involved in this.

As for the "I did it once but never again and I didn't hurt anyone" nonsense, it is about as believable as "I didn't inhale".

[nsaddict]

Ryan, you had me laughing out loud literally. Where did you acquire your Phd in sarcasm? Or self taught? I do recall the Dave Kohler situation but won't mention his name!

[68Hawk]

Your post is nauseating to me!!


I never shilled, never had anyone shill for me. Maybe you should direct your angst towards the culprits? I was a victim and, if the other years were seen, I bet I was a victim many, many more times. And do you really think if I did something wrong that someone (like you) wouldn't have turned on me? I sleep well at night, I hope you do with your ignorant statements. I did stick up for some of the culprits, before evidence was shown, and I was wrong and made mistakes in that area. But I never joined in their reindeer games and don't remember being asked to... Once proven wrong then all bets off and I hope they get what they deserve. BTW, I don't just post about it. I did something. I wrote a letter.. Did you?


And, If BY reading the last 500+ posts doesn't help you understand what went on, I don't think I can help you. As for you not posting anymore, why lie? Over the last 3-4 mos you have posted plenty. Whatever you say is fine just quit lying.

I read every post.
What you're saying is that you never overheard, never had the conversation, never knew that many of these people whose business you extolled and lent advertising and brought people to their businesses.....never heard knew anything about what was going on?
If so, then good on you. You did absolutely zero wrong.

But I remember a super early thread I posted on, many many years back, and it involved the chopped down Wagner.
From memory you suggested you knew what had happened, as did others, direct from the source, but were unwilling to call them on the carpet for it, to name names.
I suggested that was as poor as any other action, because to allow the criminal act to continue as mere rumor and mythology hurt many and the hobby as a whole.
You went, phhfft, and told me I could mind my own business.

I have gotten that feeling many times reading this board, that there is a sense that some in the know of things that aren't kosher are willing to keep their hobby friends clean of a thorough dousing in the shit.

You're suggesting you're not that person.
OK. I'll accept it at face value.
Strange to me still you have posted such little thought and opinion on this site on such an important hobby topic.

I also made point to address my post to any other 'Leon' type hobbyists who were big player friends of many who have committed the criminal acts that they have. Not just you.

As to my posting.
I was referring to being an active participant on this board, rather than posting the odd picture of a card or piece of memorabilia in a thread every so often.

For a couple of years I read these boards daily and participated regularly in discussion and opinion, most of which I was the learner of - not leader of. It was fun, but became less so because of the caustic nature of some posters.

Interesting that out of what I wrote, all I see is knee jerk reaction around Leon's name, and little to do with wanting to find out more from any and all who could tell it.

[68Hawk]

Why in the world is Leon being attacked in this thread? I didn't see his name on that list and I haven't seen him defend anyone that's on it. But I've read plenty of posts about how so and so shouldn't be on the list because there's no way he'd ever do anything like that, only to find out that so and so was guilty. I've been asked to give the benefit of the doubt to guys on the list. I've been told not to jump to conclusions, because perhaps there's some logical explanation for someone's buddy to have bid on 80 of his friend's consignments. Perhaps he just really REALLY liked his collection, right? I've even had to read post after post about the topic of shill bidding by one of the shill bidders named on the list! And the whole time, anyone on the list could very easily come here and defend themselves and tell us about their innocence. But they won't because others are ignorantly defending them, and, more importantly, they are freaking guilty!

If you have issues with Leon, that's fine. In this particular thread, however, I can't understand why those issues would have to come up, other than to deflect form the original title and spirit of the thread. There are people not on the list that I don't like and have ripped me off, but there's no reason to bring them up here. Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.

Anyway, There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger here. It's not difficult to figure out where it should be directed. THERE IS LITERALLY A LIST OF THEIR NAMES!!!!

Let's start there and move on beyond the list after that. But let's not ignore the list or let it fade into the archive afterlife just because the thieves named in it are too cowardly to come here and speak for themselves.

Don't let this blow over and revert back to business as usual again.

-Ryan

Hey Ryan, just quickly.
Do you think that list of people exists in some sort of isolation?
That others didn't participate. That others knew and kept quiet?
Your fixation with a list of names is fine, I'm thinking any and all who know more and are willing to tell more should come and do so - regardless of whether they made your list, list, list, list, list......
See, I can do it too!;)

[Rich Klein]

Look, Leon has made plenty of mistakes in his life and usually owns up to them pretty quickly. And as he has posted, some of his mistakes are pretty severe

But in this specific case

As a buyer, why would Leon want to pay more than other people because his bids were pushed up. Why would he want to spend more money than he has to, so everyone in Chicago could get a new addition to their houses.

And B&L auctions used software to prevent things like this from occurring.

It's OK to call him out for his mistakes, but NOT OK to call him out for things he was the victim on.

Regards
Rich

[glchen]

.... Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.
...

-Ryan

No idea what happened with Dave Kohler, but I thought this was hilarious.

Saying that, I do think that folks can evolve in their thinking over the years. I mean, hey, most of these auctions were ~9 years ago. There may have been some gray area where someone might have thought if they paid the full BP, it was okay to put a "hidden reserve" on their own items especially if they did not know the max bid for other bidders, especially if this only occurred 1-2 times and wasn't something that happened over and over again. I agree that this was wrong in 2007 and it's wrong now, but sometimes it takes a while for that view to become more obvious. I would be more concerned if these folks were trying to defend shilling as something that should still be okay to do.

I don't want to bring in politics, but there have been plenty of cases where at some point in history, there were laws that were not always in the right and most people's opinions supported those laws. However, in time, people's opinions changed and the laws followed. Therefore, I think folks should be allowed to fess up, especially if they say that they know that what they did in the past wasn't correct, and they realize it now.

[x2drich2000]

Maybe I missed it, but has any other auction houses come out publicly and indicated if they will continue to accept consignments/bids from anyone on the list?

DJ

[GaryPassamonte]

For all you lawyers out there: Why doesn't any judgment in a case like this include restitution. This would both benefit the injured party as well as hurt the violator where it hurts most. Receiving a jail sentence counted in months as opposed to years, and without any restitution no less, doesn't remotely smell like justice.

[Runscott]

Hey Ryan, just quickly.
Do you think that list of people exists in some sort of isolation?
That others didn't participate. That others knew and kept quiet?
Your fixation with a list of names is fine, I'm thinking any and all who know more and are willing to tell more should come and do so - regardless of whether they made your list, list, list, list, list......
See, I can do it too!;)

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

[68Hawk]

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

:p
Watched the Holy Grail with my 13 and 11 year olds just a couple of weeks ago.....wanted to see if the humour still translated.

It did for me! :D

[Beastmode]

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.


:):):)

[Runscott]

:p
Watched the Holy Grail with my 13 and 11 year olds just a couple of weeks ago.....wanted to see if the humour still translated.

It did for me! :D

It will ALWAYS translate! I have nothing better to do, so think I'll watch Holy Grail right now.

I think this thread has been very cathartic (thus, necessary) for the board, but I understand how some got their catharticism taken care of quicker than others and are ready to move on. Too bad - it's a discussion board.

[Beastmode]

Hey Ryan, just quickly.
Do you think that list of people exists in some sort of isolation?
That others didn't participate. That others knew and kept quiet?
Your fixation with a list of names is fine, I'm thinking any and all who know more and are willing to tell more should come and do so - regardless of whether they made your list, list, list, list, list......
See, I can do it too!;)

I'm officially invoking Leon's Law. If a thread goes on long enough, someone will bring up Leon's past and analogize it to the current topic.

BTW, I think 68Hawk is Peter Nash.

[ullmandds]

I'm officially invoking Leon's Law. If a thread goes on long enough, someone will bring up Leon's past and analogize it to the current topic.

BTW, I think 68Hawk is Peter Nash.

no way...68hawk is too rational to be peter nice

[Exhibitman]

For all you lawyers out there: Why doesn't any judgment in a case like this include restitution. This would both benefit the injured party as well as hurt the violator where it hurts most. Receiving a jail sentence counted in months as opposed to years, and without any restitution no less, doesn't remotely smell like justice.

Good question, the answer to which I don't know: my practice is civil law.

[Dpeck100]

Just curious.

With so many cards experiencing such a spectacular run up in price. Are there a lot of these victims that through market appreciation are no longer losing money?

I would think in a case for example of some of these major HOF stars that what were losses at this time have turned into windfall profits.

[ctownboy]

Ryan,

That reminds me of Gilbert Gottfried when he was roasting Bob Saget on Comedy Central.

David

[Griffins]

Ryan,

That reminds me of Gilbert Gottfried when he was roasting Bob Saget on Comedy Central.

David


Or Snoop Dogg in the Justin Bieber roast.

[Rich Klein]

68 Hawk has told me via PM we have met at a few shows over the years

If so, I can verify it's not Mr. Pete Nice whom I have never met. :o

Rich

[ezez420]

Removed

[68Hawk]

68 Hawk has told me via PM we have met at a few shows over the years

If so, I can verify it's not Mr. Pete Nice whom I have never met. :o

Rich

O my, broke into absolute fits lauging at the wording ....."If so....":D
I've never been so underwhelmingly verified. :o
I appreciated your perspective Rich, all the best.

[bnorth]

Removed

You should have left that Ed. I got a good laugh. GOD BLESS:)

[TheNightmanCometh]

I keep noticing it A LOT. How many of you guys are lawyers?

[Mark17]

Having read through this thread with interest, I've decided it's time for me to invite some abuse onto myself by offering my opinions (because I'm sure many will disagree... and I do understand the other side to this.)

First, the list of names doesn't give the nature of the shilling, and that is absolutely critical to determine what actually happened. There are degrees of seriousness here that are quite dramatic, depending on the type of shill bidding that occurred.

Consider these scenarios:
1. A collector is considering consigning some items to an AH, but is of course concerned that the items might end up selling at an unacceptably low price. So, the seller tells the AH that he'd be interested in offering his items, but he'd need to get certain minimum amounts, after shipping fees, consignment fees, authentication fees, and so on. The AH tells him they understand and will make sure he gets acceptable amounts for his stuff, or it'll be returned to him unsold. The consignor agrees, not knowing, caring, or having it even occur to him to ask, what mechanism the AH will use to establish those minimum price levels.

That mechanism could be a reserve, a hidden reserve, an in-house base initial (shill) bid, a bid from an active collector who would in fact like to purchase the item if he could get a great deal on it, and is perhaps considering placing larger bids later on to try to acquire the item, and so on. Bottom line: the consignor may not know which of the above methods will be used to protect his items. He may assume a generally accepted method will be employed - like a hidden reserve, but it might turn out the AH uses a method involving a shill bidder, without the consignor being aware of it.

In this scenario you might see a seller listing multiple items that all employed the same shill bidder... but the consignor was unaware anything wrong was taking place.

2. I'm sure most will disagree with me, but when I am bidding on an item incrementally, it doesn't really matter to me whether I'm going up against a real bidder, a shill bidder, or trying to reach a hidden reserve. I know what an item is worth to me, and I bid accordingly. We aren't talking about putting food on our families' tables here, we're talking about bits of cardboard, pieces of wood (bats) and pieces of old cloth (jerseys.) Sometimes these items also have ink (autographs) on them. If I don't win an item I'd like to add to my collection, I deal with it and it isn't that hard to do. If I pay more than I should, that's on me and I'll remind myself to be more disciplined next time.

I understand that when shill bidders end up being the high bidder and give the impression an item actually sold at an inflated price, it sends a false value to the marketplace. But that also happens when two legit bidders go toe-to-toe bidding on something they both need for their specific collections.

For instance, I recently paid over $2,200 for a 1964 Jim Kaat 1964 flannel. A few years ago, I know someone who paid over $4,000 for a 1962 Twins common shirt. He was very unlucky in that he ran up against someone else who really wanted it badly (I seriously doubt that was a shill situation... no shill bidder in their right mind would've dreamed they could've pushed the price to that level.)

So... did the $4,000 sale tell the market that a Twins common shirt is worth that much? No, I don't think so but in any case that specific price anomaly happened in the marketplace, and that general scenario takes place regularly, naturally, without shill bidders involved.

3. The third type of shill bidding is way, way different. That's when an AH exploits bidders' maximum bids. I do not know if any of the instances on that spreadsheet are of this variety, but to me, IF an AH accessed max bids and then used that info against the bidder, to pump up their bids, that would be, or should be, outright criminal.

Most AH have rules stating that bids are considered legal contracts, and placing a bid thus obligates the bidder to pay for items won. So, suppose an AH sees that a bid is standing at $1,000 but the high bidder has a max bid of $2,500. They could, in theory, use shill bidders to push that up artificially to the max bid, and then require the bidder to pay the inflated price. To me, that's basically theft.

I do not know if any of the instances on that list are of this type. I'm just saying... IF any of them were, then that would be very, very serious.

So, in sum:
1. If a consignor doesn't know shill bidders are being used to protect his listings, I see no guilt on his part, and minimal guilt on the part of the AH. Using reserves would be a better, more transparent, method.

2. If shill bidders are being used during incremental bidding, I understand it's wrong, but if I'm the victim, I'm not too bothered by it. Would I like to get the item cheaper? Of course. But ultimately I need to be disciplined and only pay as much as I want to pay for something. And when the plan backfires on the shill bidder, and they end up eating the consignment fees, buyers premiums, and so on, well, that's justice.

3. If an AH uses maximum bids submitted by bidders to drive up the actual bid, this is, or should be, outright criminal and people should go to jail or be fined. The fallout, as this scandal unfolds, could be that bidders may be reluctant to place max bids if they don't have complete confidence in the AH, and this could really drive down realized prices, especially for those auctions that extend well into the early morning hours.

So, my personal opinion is basically that a list of names without knowing who actually did what, is not sufficient to assume everyone on the list is "guilty," and it certainly is not enough to determine who (if anyone) might be "really, really guilty."

[ElCabron]

Mark17,

Have you ever been a shill bidder or had an auction house or other person place bids on your consignments?

-Ryan

[Mark17]

I wondered if it would be possible to express an opinion here without being personally attacked........... guess not.

The answers are "no." I don't beat my wife either (only because I'm not married.)

[ALR-bishop]

Well, would you..if you had one ?

[ullmandds]

What is the purpose of arguing degrees of breaking the law? Does it really matter if you kill a person with one bullet to the head or if you slice them open and let them bleed to death and then cut them into little pieces ? Murder is murder !

[Stonepony]

What is the purpose of arguing degrees of breaking the law? Does it really matter if you kill a person with one bullet to the head or if you slice them open and let them bleed to death and then cut them into little pieces ? Murder is murder !
I agree. I don't see the point in discussing different scenarios of illegality.

[Mark17]

What is the purpose of arguing degrees of breaking the law? Does it really matter if you kill a person with one bullet to the head or if you slice them open and let them bleed to death and then cut them into little pieces ? Murder is murder !

Yes, murder is murder, but jaywalking is not murder.

[ullmandds]

Yes, murder is murder, but jaywalking is not murder.

correct...jaywalking is jaywalking...and murder is murder...just as fraud is fraud...and shilling is shilling. lets not cross streams here.

[Runscott]

I wondered if it would be possible to express an opinion here without being personally attacked........... guess not.

You have to expect it. The tough part is not lashing out when it happens.

[D.P.Johnson]

correct...jaywalking is jaywalking...and murder is murder...just as fraud is fraud...and shilling is shilling. lets not cross streams here.

Yeah, but...What if I hit somebody with my car while they're jaywalking??? Is that murder??? What if the person happened to be my ex-wife??? (I mean, if I HAD an ex-wife???) Help a brotha out here...

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Mark

In all seriousness you kind of sound like an employee of an AH trying to justify shill bidding.

Its a shame IMO that the staggering buyers/sellers premiums aren't enough for the scoundrels at XYZ auction house that nets them upwards of 35% off the top of whatever value your item currently holds when most of them can't even be bothered to provide pictures of items proving authenticity but some feel IMO its their god given rite to charge an additional 20-25% through shill bidding practices to additionally line their pockets and look like heroes to their consigners in the attempt to bring back future consignments.

Unfortunately for anyone such as myself whose bid and won at an auction house common sense dictates IMO that shill bidding has been a standard business practice for the past 20+ years.

Most people involved in this practice of shilling who derive their living from these sales obviously don't see anything wrong with the practice since it appears and feels like its industry wide.

Does anyone really think that these AH's don't know who individuals are that are bidding in their auctions especially the higher rollers and what your spending and collecting habits are and what you might be willing to pay?

Does anyone in their rite mind really trust these AH's self policing themselves in regards to ethic violations with the easy money thats at stake?

Can anyone even imagine the shredding and deleting of incriminating documents that has and will continue to go on until big brother steps in?

Its also quite apparent that white collar crime pays these days as the punishment that is handed out is hardly a deterrent or fits the crime of bilking the public out of hundreds of thousands of dollars for years upon years.

I don't believe at this point give the sorry state of affairs of the hobby that any benefit of the doubt can be given to AH's without proof of their stated business practices and/or innocence in regards to these matters, without these auctions being run by some type of independent government appointed body to oversee these practices.

The cats been out of the bag for a longtime now in regards to these practices and it takes sensational stories to motivate people to speak out.

Its also quite apparent IMO that someone or something has motivated Game Used Collector to make the thread about this very subject unavailable on their site for the past 2-days.

IMO Its also quite disturbing the gestapo type tactics that have been and are being employed over at Ken Goldin's GUU to silence the community since IMO it is Ken who likes to portray himself in his marketing schemes as some type of friend and good guy to collectors.

IMO GUU is nothing more than a marketing arm of Goldin Auctions since its take over. It also appears IMO that only items that don't appear in Goldin Auctions can be publicly questioned now for fear of being banned or being publicly scolded for doing so.

Its a shame that the powers that be in this hobby feel the need to silence and or discredit anyone or thing that comes out and questions any of the misdoings and going on's that occur so frequently now that most hobbyists just want to turn a blind eye until they are confronted face to face with the truth.

IMO why doesn't Ken get off his high horse and explain himself in regards to this matter? instead of choosing to hide behind this posted reply on his behalf on GUU:

"I am aware, as is Ken, that his name appears as a consignor on the list made public by Doug Allen as part of his attempt to reduce his jail sentence. Ken will not be discussing this matter on any public forum, a matter that is over eight years old and references when he was a private collector five years before Goldin Auctions was formed. However, if it is important for you to hear from him, he will discuss this matter personally with you and has done so with a number of members already. His email address is Ken@GoldinAuctions.com.

I also want to ensure our friends, consignors, bidders and business partners that this list has nothing to do with the current business of Goldin Auctions. When founded in the summer of 2012, Goldin Auctions was built with the interests of bidders and consignors in mind. From its beginning, it was explained to me that Goldin Auctions has implemented extensive ethics, rules and compliance safeguards built in to protect bidders and consignors including:

1. Goldin Auction employees do not have access to maximum bids. Our auction software provider has turned off, at our request, our ability to see your proxy/ceiling bids. A maximum bid placed online will never be known or seen by us in order to hold our auction process to the highest industry standards. This is for both bidder and consignor protection.

2. Goldin does not have access to passwords. While that can often cause an inconvenience when someone forgets their password, it gives bidders the assurance that their account is safe.

3. Goldin has a reserve system. We state the rules on reserves, and they are posted online. This avoids issues of hidden reserves or using shill bidding to meet a hidden reserve.

4. We use the highest authenticity procedures in the business. We will not sell non-authenticated items; we do not issue our own LOAs; we rely on the most respected industry experts for all authentications. In addition, as many of you know, even with these procedures in place we will still routinely pull items during an auction if there is a third-party authenticator error. Further, as many of you have experienced, when concern over an item is brought to our attention we are extremely responsive to any questions.

5. We implement limited credits for any new bidders. We do not give new bidders unlimited bidding rights with us when they register. We restrict them with a strict bidding limit until they have been proven to be credit worthy and legitimate users. Even with other auction references, we still place limits on most bidders initially to protect all other auction bidders and consignors.

For a complete list of our compliance rules, you can click the link below:

https://www.goldinauctions.com/rules.aspx

When I joined Goldin Auctions in February 2013, I researched the way the company was established and made a post as to why I was joining Goldin Auctions. As you know from my creating Game Used Universe in 2005, the credibility of the industry is of utmost importance to me and I will only associate with an entity I believe is committed to consistently doing what is right. I do not feel anything has changed with regard to Goldin Auctions. If it did, I would not continue in my position with them".

Sincerely,
Chris
__________________
Christopher Cavalier
Vice President of Consignments - Goldin Auctions

These are my opinions and views from my experiences over the past 35+ years of being a hobbyist

Ron Kosiewicz

[Leon]

To me, We aren't discussing legality. We aren't discussing right or wrong. Shilling is wrong and (in some or most) cases illegal.

That being said I think the scenarios Mark17 laid out make sense to discuss. If you go 65mph in a 55mph zone you will generally get a ticket if stopped (*and you aren't a pretty girl, we aren't). But if you are going 137mph in a 55mph zone you will probably go to jail. Both are speeding, both are wrong....one is worse than the other. I look at each line item as it's own scenario but can also see patterns etc...just like everyone else. I hope we don't stifle a good discussion (understanding it might not be good to some)...

I agree. I don't see the point in discussing different scenarios of illegality.

[Leon]

Yeah, but...What if I hit somebody with my car while they're jaywalking??? Is that murder??? What if the person happened to be my ex-wife??? (I mean, if I HAD an ex-wife???) Help a brotha out here...

LMAO..quit that, now back to the story....

[Mark17]

Mark

In all seriousness you kind of sound like an employee of an AH trying to justify shill bidding.


These are my opinions and views from my experiences over the past 35+ years of being a hobbyist

Ron Kosiewicz

Ron,
I agree with much of what you say here. But, if you read my post again, you'll see that I'm not defending shill bidding. I'm saying:

1. I think it's quite possible a consignor might have shill bidding occur on his items without knowing it; the AH using that method rather than the preferred reserve method, to comply with a consignor's condition of his items hitting certain price. All the consignor knows is that his items either sell or don't - he doesn't know, or care, about the bidding history or computer code behind the scenes. Isn't it reasonable to see a scenario where this could happen?

2. I, personally, on items that I, personally am bidding on, do not care what is in the heart of the person I'm bidding against. I don't care if they want the item to resell, to add to their collection, to give to someone as a gift, or if it's someone trying to bump the price up. I'm NOT saying it's OK, I am saying that I, personally, bid what I want to bid, and if someone wants to play the shill game on me, they'd best realize they may very well get burned.

Others feel differently. I get that. If you or anyone wants to bid against me in an auction, feel free to do so regardless of your motive because I don't know what you're thinking and I don't care.

3. I'm saying that if an AH uses max bids to screw bidders, it's a crime that should be punishable by fine or jail. I don't know how I could've put that in stronger terms.

Now, as to your comment quoted above, I'm tired of defending myself against these personal attacks and accusations. No, I don't work for an auction house and never have. And I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the Communist Party.

[Jeffrompa]

The Spirit of Law is much more important than the letter of the law .

[bcornell]

I had to Google "GUU" to learn what it is. The super long defense of his employer by an employee seems to be that since Goldin started an auction house, they're now behaving themselves. As if we all just fell off the turnip truck.

Every argument on this thread where someone essentially said "it's the hobby, just lump it", I'd say get me back the $180 (at least) that I see Mastro stole from me, then we can talk.

Finally, the AdBlock extension for Chrome is a great way to block "sponsors".

Bill

[ElCabron]

I wondered if it would be possible to express an opinion here without being personally attacked........... guess not.

The answers are "no." I don't beat my wife either (only because I'm not married.)

I'm not sure why you took that question as a personal attack because I think it's a fair question to ask. I am not at all interested in hearing what shill bidders think about any of this. I think a lot of people who are not on the list have not chimed in at all due to the fact that they, too, have shilled items, either in Mastro during the years the records were destroyed, or with other auction houses. There are far more offenders than what appears on that list.

Keep in mind, that list is just 2 years from just one auction house. There are probably quite a few board members who have shill bidding skeletons in their closets and are hoping everyone would just drop this issue and move on to funner things.

I disagree with most of what you say in points 1 and 2 and I don't understand why so many people are coming to the defense of the people named on the list when they are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. If you think there are examples where something on the list might have looked like shill bidding, but was not, please let us know. Perhaps there are answers to those questions. If someone has been incorrectly added to that list, let us know. Or at least let us know why they can't come here and question it on their own.

But your point about there being different degrees is valid. Is Peter S. the same as Doug Allen? No way. Not even in the same ballpark. That's why he's not going to jail. But he's still a shill bidder. There are some examples of multiple offenders that were undeniably involved in shill bidding, though. Are you really suggesting that JC Clarke, or Kevin Keating, or Dave Forman shouldn't be on the list?

I would have thought that anyone who looked at the list or knew anything about Doug Allen would be able to easily put into perspective the differing levels of criminals that made the list.

Doug Allen > JC Clarke > Peter Spaeth



-Ryan

[Mark17]

I'm not sure why you took that question as a personal attack because I think it's a fair question to ask. I am not at all interested in hearing what shill bidders think about any of this. I think a lot of people who are not on the list have not chimed in at all due to the fact that they, too, have shilled items, either in Mastro during the years the records were destroyed, or with other auction houses. There are far more offenders than what appears on that list.

Keep in mind, that list is just 2 years from just one auction house. There are probably quite a few board members who have shill bidding skeletons in their closets and are hoping everyone would just drop this issue and move on to funner things.

I disagree with most of what you say in points 1 and 2 and I don't understand why so many people are coming to the defense of the people named on the list when they are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. If you think there are examples where something on the list might have looked like shill bidding, but was not, please let us know. Perhaps there are answers to those questions. If someone has been incorrectly added to that list, let us know. Or at least let us know why they can't come here and question it on their own.

But your point about there being different degrees is valid. Is Peter S. the same as Doug Allen? No way. Not even in the same ballpark. That's why he's not going to jail. But he's still a shill bidder. There are some examples of multiple offenders that were undeniably involved in shill bidding, though. Are you really suggesting that JC Clarke, or Kevin Keating, or Dave Forman shouldn't be on the list?

I would have thought that anyone who looked at the list or knew anything about Doug Allen would be able to easily put into perspective the differing levels of criminals that made the list.

Doug Allen > JC Clarke > Peter Spaeth



-Ryan

Maybe my posts have not been clear, or maybe you are ascribing some preconceptions on them/me, so I will respond to you once more to see if I can clarify:

A. I'm not a shill bidder. I've only sent about 8 items to auction houses in the past 20 years, so I'm not anything close to being a "frequent flyer." If possible, let's focus on the issue, and the points raised, rather than on me.

B. There are only about 5 names on the list that I even recognized, and nobody whom I have spoken to in the past 20-odd years. I did do business with one of those named back in the 1980s a few times. So I cannot comment on who is/isn't there.

C. I'm not defending anybody because I don't know the players or their crimes, or the validity of the list for that matter. For those same reasons I'm not comfortable condemning them either. Maybe more (substantiated) info will come out and that might change... we'll see how this plays out.

Others here are much quicker to judge and that's up to them. If you want to take issue with the fact I'm not grabbing my pitchfork and joining you, that's fine. If it turns out people were using bidders' maximum bids against them, I'll join you and bring a howitzer.

When you say: "But your point about there being different degrees is valid..." that's good because that was about 90% of what I was trying to get across.

[Canofcorn]

That list was huge. Thought I would never stop scrolling down. Wow

[mickeymao34]

Mark

In all seriousness you kind of sound like an employee of an AH trying to justify shill bidding.

Its a shame IMO that the staggering buyers/sellers premiums aren't enough for the scoundrels at XYZ auction house that nets them upwards of 35% off the top of whatever value your item currently holds when most of them can't even be bothered to provide pictures of items proving authenticity but some feel IMO its their god given rite to charge an additional 20-25% through shill bidding practices to additionally line their pockets and look like heroes to their consigners in the attempt to bring back future consignments.

Unfortunately for anyone such as myself whose bid and won at an auction house common sense dictates IMO that shill bidding has been a standard business practice for the past 20+ years.

Most people involved in this practice of shilling who derive their living from these sales obviously don't see anything wrong with the practice since it appears and feels like its industry wide.

Does anyone really think that these AH's don't know who individuals are that are bidding in their auctions especially the higher rollers and what your spending and collecting habits are and what you might be willing to pay?

Does anyone in their rite mind really trust these AH's self policing themselves in regards to ethic violations with the easy money thats at stake?

Can anyone even imagine the shredding and deleting of incriminating documents that has and will continue to go on until big brother steps in?

Its also quite apparent that white collar crime pays these days as the punishment that is handed out is hardly a deterrent or fits the crime of bilking the public out of hundreds of thousands of dollars for years upon years.

I don't believe at this point give the sorry state of affairs of the hobby that any benefit of the doubt can be given to AH's without proof of their stated business practices and/or innocence in regards to these matters, without these auctions being run by some type of independent government appointed body to oversee these practices.

The cats been out of the bag for a longtime now in regards to these practices and it takes sensational stories to motivate people to speak out.

Its also quite apparent IMO that someone or something has motivated Game Used Collector to make the thread about this very subject unavailable on their site for the past 2-days.

IMO Its also quite disturbing the gestapo type tactics that have been and are being employed over at Ken Goldin's GUU to silence the community since IMO it is Ken who likes to portray himself in his marketing schemes as some type of friend and good guy to collectors.

IMO GUU is nothing more than a marketing arm of Goldin Auctions since its take over. It also appears IMO that only items that don't appear in Goldin Auctions can be publicly questioned now for fear of being banned or being publicly scolded for doing so.

Its a shame that the powers that be in this hobby feel the need to silence and or discredit anyone or thing that comes out and questions any of the misdoings and going on's that occur so frequently now that most hobbyists just want to turn a blind eye until they are confronted face to face with the truth.

IMO why doesn't Ken get off his high horse and explain himself in regards to this matter? instead of choosing to hide behind this posted reply on his behalf on GUU:

"I am aware, as is Ken, that his name appears as a consignor on the list made public by Doug Allen as part of his attempt to reduce his jail sentence. Ken will not be discussing this matter on any public forum, a matter that is over eight years old and references when he was a private collector five years before Goldin Auctions was formed. However, if it is important for you to hear from him, he will discuss this matter personally with you and has done so with a number of members already. His email address is Ken@GoldinAuctions.com.

I also want to ensure our friends, consignors, bidders and business partners that this list has nothing to do with the current business of Goldin Auctions. When founded in the summer of 2012, Goldin Auctions was built with the interests of bidders and consignors in mind. From its beginning, it was explained to me that Goldin Auctions has implemented extensive ethics, rules and compliance safeguards built in to protect bidders and consignors including:

1. Goldin Auction employees do not have access to maximum bids. Our auction software provider has turned off, at our request, our ability to see your proxy/ceiling bids. A maximum bid placed online will never be known or seen by us in order to hold our auction process to the highest industry standards. This is for both bidder and consignor protection.

2. Goldin does not have access to passwords. While that can often cause an inconvenience when someone forgets their password, it gives bidders the assurance that their account is safe.

3. Goldin has a reserve system. We state the rules on reserves, and they are posted online. This avoids issues of hidden reserves or using shill bidding to meet a hidden reserve.

4. We use the highest authenticity procedures in the business. We will not sell non-authenticated items; we do not issue our own LOAs; we rely on the most respected industry experts for all authentications. In addition, as many of you know, even with these procedures in place we will still routinely pull items during an auction if there is a third-party authenticator error. Further, as many of you have experienced, when concern over an item is brought to our attention we are extremely responsive to any questions.

5. We implement limited credits for any new bidders. We do not give new bidders unlimited bidding rights with us when they register. We restrict them with a strict bidding limit until they have been proven to be credit worthy and legitimate users. Even with other auction references, we still place limits on most bidders initially to protect all other auction bidders and consignors.

For a complete list of our compliance rules, you can click the link below:

https://www.goldinauctions.com/rules.aspx

When I joined Goldin Auctions in February 2013, I researched the way the company was established and made a post as to why I was joining Goldin Auctions. As you know from my creating Game Used Universe in 2005, the credibility of the industry is of utmost importance to me and I will only associate with an entity I believe is committed to consistently doing what is right. I do not feel anything has changed with regard to Goldin Auctions. If it did, I would not continue in my position with them".

Sincerely,
Chris
__________________
Christopher Cavalier
Vice President of Consignments - Goldin Auctions

These are my opinions and views from my experiences over the past 35+ years of being a hobbyist

Ron Kosiewicz

col·lu·sion

/kəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun

secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.
Example:
"When I joined Goldin Auctions in February 2013, I researched the way the company was established and made a post as to why I was joining Goldin Auctions. As you know from my creating Game Used Universe in 2005, the credibility of the industry is of utmost importance to me and I will only associate with an entity I believe is committed to consistently doing what is right. I do not feel anything has changed with regard to Goldin Auctions. If it did, I would not continue in my position with them".

[clydepepper]

CON.CLU.SION

Can we finally put this thread to bed...or move it elsewhere...?
.
.

[SyrNy1960]

Taking full responsibility and owning it: A person doesn’t take 100% full responsibility, if they then follow up and put a spin on it to somewhat justify their actions. “I knew it was wrong, but at that time, it’s what everyone was doing.” You knew it was wrong and you did it anyway. The end!

[ullmandds]

i think it's interesting a bunch of y'all want this thread put to rest...or moved. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest news(even though we knew it was happening prior to "the list") whether positive or negative to hit our beloved hobby pretty much ever.

Does this discussion make some of y'all uncomfortable? If so...WHY?

Ya...I'd much rather look at countless threads of fake wagners and 52 topps mantle cards.

SERIOUSLY?

[Beastmode]

CON.CLU.SION

Can we finally put this thread to bead...or move it elsewhere...?
.
.

bump

[vintagetoppsguy]

That list was huge. Thought I would never stop scrolling down. Wow

Hey, douche bag, put your name in your post!

And if any of the other members didn't read what he wrote earlier and then edited out, yes, he is a douche bag.

Edited to add: I've had a couple board members ask me what he said. Basically he said how this was only a 'rich white man's' crime. There was more, but that's the gist of it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

[Joshchisox08]

Not sure if anyone posted this as I haven't payed too much attention to this thread but:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/yankees-owner-victim-mastro-auctions-shill-bidding-article-1.2514664?utm_content=bufferb50da&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[Runscott]

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

Well-posted Jake :)

[Rich Klein]

Not sure if anyone posted this as I haven't payed too much attention to this thread but:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/yankees-owner-victim-mastro-auctions-shill-bidding-article-1.2514664?utm_content=bufferb50da&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I posted that a while back in this long and winding road thread

[Leon]

I posted that a while back in this long and winding road thread

Yes, always the contrarian instigator. Nice....

[WindyCityGameUsed]

i think it's interesting a bunch of y'all want this thread put to rest...or moved. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest news(even though we knew it was happening prior to "the list") whether positive or negative to hit our beloved hobby pretty much ever.

Does this discussion make some of y'all uncomfortable? If so...WHY?

Ya...I'd much rather look at countless threads of fake wagners and 52 topps mantle cards.

SERIOUSLY?

This topic should be talked about as long as needed until there is full disclosure of who did what followed by verifiable results thru a 3rd party of change in business practices moving forward.

I would also have to question the motives of anyone that would want to see this topic silenced after the damage that a few at the top have done and continue to do to the entire hobby.

[mickeymao34]

Almost 90k hits and approaching 700 replies? This is an amazing thread with many avenues to explore that hasn't even been walked down yet.

[mickeymao34]

guu emergency staff meeting monday morning 2/1/2016. from left to right: CC, moderators, and KG the brain

[conor912]

This is a amazing threads with many avenues to explore that hasn't even been walked down yet.

What?

[ullmandds]

What?

what are it about those thread it dont u git?

[Leon]

Almost 90k hits and approaching 700 replies? This is an amazing thread with many avenues to explore that hasn't even been walked down yet.

Not defending anyone but........Here is an avenue to explore......Care to explain why you are banned from Goldin Auctions for not paying a 3k'ish invoice from Oct 4, 2013? Might that be at least a partial motive as to why you are posting? I would imagine not paying for an invoice could almost be considered shill bidding.

[ALR-bishop]

what are it about those thread it dont u git?

Cat's fur to make kitten's britches

[mickeymao34]

Not defending anyone but........Here is an avenue to explore......Care to explain why you are banned from Goldin Auctions for not paying a 3k'ish invoice from Oct 4, 2013? Might that be at least a partial motive as to why you are posting? I would imagine not paying for an invoice could almost be considered shill bidding.

Ken is an outstanding member in the hobby.

[Canofcorn]

Hey, douche bag, put your name in your post!

And if any of the other members didn't read what he wrote earlier and then edited out, yes, he is a douche bag.

I don't stoop to namecalling. You would not say this to my face, believe me.
You have shown yourself to be exactly who you are.

[Leon]

I don't stoop to namecalling. You would not say this to my face, believe me.
You have shown yourself to be exactly who you are.

You can not post anymore in this thread without putting your full name next to your post. I am not taking sides only trying to maintain the rules.....


and to correct an above statement concerning an invoice day and date to Mike Wo.ng, it was actually a $3700 invoice from 11//2014....other than that, I am out of it...not my problem. :)

[Exhibitman]

i think it's interesting a bunch of y'all want this thread put to rest...or moved. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest news(even though we knew it was happening prior to "the list") whether positive or negative to hit our beloved hobby pretty much ever.

Does this discussion make some of y'all uncomfortable? If so...WHY?

Ya...I'd much rather look at countless threads of fake wagners and 52 topps mantle cards.

SERIOUSLY?

Thanks, I just spit my coffee on my desk laughing!

[Exhibitman]

man looking at the last 30 or so posts..i have to think, man some posters think MY posts are confusing ...but yet they can understand all of those posts with the analogies ..I need a rosetta stone

Your posts ARE confusing; don't sell yourself short.

[batsballsbases]

My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

Question will be coming.

[mickeymao34]

You can not post anymore in this thread without putting your full name next to your post. I am not taking sides only trying to maintain the rules.....


and to correct an above statement concerning an invoice day and date to Mike Wo.ng, it was actually a $3700 invoice from 11//2014....other than that, I am out of it...not my problem. :)

see my last post. In this case better to be a dead beat bidder with 2600 saved than a du ma out 2600 and stuck with a jersey with a question mark.

[smokelessjoe]

Question will be coming.

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

[batsballsbases]

My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

I was the consignor of a 1955 Red Man set in the August, 2007 Mastro Auctions which appears on the list being discussed. It is the only item where my name is listed as consignor and Peter Spaeth as the bidder.

Peter has already related the facts and expressed views as I see them. People may question my ethics but I ask that they at least acknowledge that this was the lone entry on a very long list, and that this one transaction was much different than many of those listed. I have had many private transactions with people on this board and as a seller and buyer on eBay, and I hope my past dealings are at least considered before passing judgment.

I made the decision to consign this set with Mastro Auctions despite the fact they would not use a reserve or high starting bid. They told me that they would allow me to select one bidder to place what constitutes a hidden reserve, as long as I understood that if that bid was the winning bid, I would have to pay a buyer's premium on that amount.

I assumed this was an acceptable practice as I was told this was done on other Mastro auction lots. At that time I believe Mastro Auctions was considered the premier auction house in our hobby.

I have been a member on this board for about 8 years, and have read the many discussions regarding shill bidding. My understanding and views have evolved over that time like I am sure it has for many other members. I understand and agree that using a hidden reserve in the way Mastro Auctions suggested is wrong. I only ask that the members here consider that this was done in 2007, that it was recommended by the leading auction house, that it was done once, that the hidden reserve was a fraction of the value of the lot, and that the buyer's premium was paid by me.

There was no intent to deceive anyone. This set was #1 on the PSA Registry by a very large margin. Every card was the highest graded at that time and almost half of the 50 cards were the only ones graded at that level. Any one interested in Red Man cards could see that I retired the set before the auction and then re-registered the set after the auction showing that the set had not changed hands.

Finally, and most importantly, I want to clarify the record. Peter is a good friend and wrote his explanation in such a way as not to distance himself from me, but the fact of the matter is that he did not place these bids, I did. He did know what I was doing because we discussed how I had been instructed to proceed by Doug Allen, and he does not deny that, but he was not an active participant in the bidding. The worst part of this whole affair is that an honest, good guy is being hurt for doing me a favor.

Im a little confused here Peter and I wanted to maybe see if YOU could clarify this. I posted up your response from post 143 and your friend ron from post 403.
You say "Ron then asked "ME" if I would bid for him after thinking it over "I"agreed. Then a little further on you say "No one out bid me"

Then as Ron Goldberg says in his post " but the fact of the matter is that he didnot place these bids I did" "he didnot know what I was doing. He wasnot an active participant in the bidding"

So my question is this WHO BID?
It is clear that one of you is lying. Or as a lawyer might put it not telling the truth.
So again just to clear this up WHO BID? Very simple to answer.
If it was you than you shilled your friends auction, If it was Ron than he shilled his own auction. Just curious Peter to the response.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I don't stoop to namecalling.

No you just stoop to making disparaging remarks about "white people".

[1880nonsports]

edited to allow this overall serious discussion to stay on point

[clydepepper]

i think it's interesting a bunch of y'all want this thread put to rest...or moved. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest news(even though we knew it was happening prior to "the list") whether positive or negative to hit our beloved hobby pretty much ever.

Does this discussion make some of y'all uncomfortable? If so...WHY?

Ya...I'd much rather look at countless threads of fake wagners and 52 topps mantle cards.

SERIOUSLY?


Pete - I understand your point of view. I guess I am just (or only) uncomfortable with this subject because I have not (to my knowledge) been a victim of such misdeeds. I'm a small time player in the hobby so perhaps that is my 'protection'.

The notices of fake cards are usually very helpful even though the two cards you mention will always be out of my reach (damn powerball quick pick).


Having a thread entitled '...list of criminals...' takes a lot of the 'gloss off the apple' for me, but I realize it's better to wash anything before you eat it.


Anyway...it's raining today and I'm just looking for sunny days with high skies and a gentle breeze coming in from left.

Ah yes, the eternal hopefulness of Spring...
.
.

[batsballsbases]

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....

[Beastmode]

"The speed of light is faster that the speed of sound that is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak"

I've read every post in this thread, some twice. There's everything in here from a$$ raping to accusations of racism; but in between is a wealth of good knowledge and educated rants.

However, this signature line from Al, is funniest sh** I've seen in a while.

[batsballsbases]

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

Shawn that is exactly what I want to know....

[smokelessjoe]

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.


I think Peter_Spaeth answered the question... But part of the answer leads me to believe that Ron placed multiple bids using Peters account because Peter states: "Ron placed the bids"...

[batsballsbases]

Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....

Peter,
My guess is that you wont answer the last part of my question on the grounds that it might incriminate you.. Or in other words plead the 5th...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think Peter_Spaeth answered the question... But part of the answer leads me to believe that Ron placed multiple bids using Peters account because Peter states: "Ron placed the bids"...

No there was only one lot involved I am sure. 9 years later I really don't recall what the bidding was on the one lot it may well only have been one bid and I misspoke.

[Peter_Spaeth]

,

[nsaddict]

Does Al have a last name?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Your posts ARE confusing; don't sell yourself short.

ah and your posts really add value and people thank you for their posts...I guess my last post wasn't confusing for you to comment..

I know I will be confused if you actually post something that people in the hobby would value when commenting to me.


and no. posts about .fake 1952 Topps Mantle and Wagners on ebay do not count if you go there...

[batsballsbases]

I have no idea why you are obsessed with me, but I came on here perfectly willing to be transparent and I then did my best to clarify your confusion about my answer and Ron's. Perhaps you should ask some questions of the people who are silent. If it's lawyers you don't like, there are some on that list. One has 50 plus transactions in which he was the consignor and his employee was the bidder.

Peter,
I have no obsession with you ,personally I could care less about you but there are 2 type of people I hate cheats,and liars. And you my friend have fit that mold. You refuse to answer a simple question and that leads me to believe that maybe you have more to hide. Wow kinda sucks to be on the other end of the questioning doesnt it. And Peter people see that you do the dance around the questions and I do believe that many think very differently of you now. For god sake Peter just answer the question I posed maybe it will do you some good to get it off your chest!!
Al S@meo.ne

[1952boyntoncollector]

Does Al have a last name?

first name was Big I thought...isn't that the first name of a lot of Als..

as to bastsballsbases:

Simple yes and no answers usually don't end up so simple...I think peter already fell on his sword.....badgering the witness I think is what lawyers say.....

[batsballsbases]

first name was Big I thought...isn't that the first name of a lot of Als..

as to bastsballsbases:

Simple yes and no answers usually don't end up so simple...I think peter already fell on his sword.....badgering the witness I think is what lawyers say.....

First of all My name is at the bottom of some of my posts. I have been here on the board for a long time and most know me. Check for my name at the start of this on post 453 if you want. Its also right above you in post 701.

Second just want the truth nothing more or less. simple question deserves a simple answer.

[tiger8mush]

For god sake Peter just answer the question I posed maybe it will do you some good to get it off your chest!!
Al S@meo.ne

Didn't he already answer the question? Ron placed the bid(s) using Peter's account. What else is there to answer?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter,
I have no obsession with you ,personally I could care less about you but there are 2 type of people I hate cheats,and liars. And you my friend have fit that mold. You refuse to answer a simple question and that leads me to believe that maybe you have more to hide. Wow kinda sucks to be on the other end of the questioning doesnt it. And Peter people see that you do the dance around the questions and I do believe that many think very differently of you now. For god sake Peter just answer the question I posed maybe it will do you some good to get it off your chest!!
Al S@meo.ne

..

[batsballsbases]

Didn't he already answer the question? Ron placed the bid(s) using Peter's account. What else is there to answer?

No . The question he refuses to answer is DID YOU GIVE RON YOUR ACCOUNT # AND PASSWORD... That is all I want to know and if answered I will never ask Peter another question...

[batsballsbases]

Didn't he already answer the question? Ron placed the bid(s) using Peter's account. What else is there to answer?

Oh and by the way as was asked of me please put your full name in your post as I dont see it there..
Al S@meo ne

[Leon]

No . The question he refuses to answer is DID YOU GIVE RON YOUR ACCOUNT # AND PASSWORD... That is all I want to know and if answered I will never ask Peter another question...

Didn't this post in #668 answer the question? It is yes one way or the other, btw...

"Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well."



.

[batsballsbases]

Didn't this post in #668 answer the question? It is yes one way or the other, btw...

"Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well."



.

Leon,
I believe its post 688 and no it didnt answer what I asked. But If YOU want me to let it go his silence has answered the question for me..

[68Hawk]

No there was only one lot involved I am sure. 9 years later I really don't recall what the bidding was on the one lot it may well only have been one bid and I misspoke.

While my name holds zero gravitas - at least on this board, my kids think I'm a god..:p, can I ask this?

Daniel Enright

I'm surprised the events we are discussing are murky at all for you, and I understand the 9 years part. You were asked to participate in an illegal and surely uncomfortable for-you situation, one you didn't repeat, and from my reading of your posts over the years, its an act that wouldn't have sat right. Generally I feel your call on this board is for the greater good, the moral and ethical right to win out.
So such an even should have seared itself into you mind.
I'm 47, and at age 15 stole a Penthouse magazine from a store, getting caught on the way out. I can see it all very easily right now, my school uniform, which side of my jacket I put the magazine behind, the point at which the owner called for me to stop as I sidled out the door. I had to go to the police station, have my mum pick me up.....I never stole a thing again in my life.
I can't un-remember it.

The part of your story, and what happens to all stories if they contain any innacuracies, is as you tell them over and over aspects that don't jive start to stand out.

Originally you described the action as a single bid, meant to act as a minimum amount your friend Ron would accept. I think you allowed the number of bids, and how you framed it in your mind as a minimum, to mitigate the whole sordid action to yourself. Ron was simply protecting himself from being ripped off by a low offer.

You just now said in your last post, you are unsure of how many bids were placed?
You can see how that would change everything, from setting a minimum to an active effort to shill up another bidder.
I also have a feeling you would have followed the auction more than just casually, to know how it turned out and because it was a moral car crash - it would have been hard to avert your eyes.

Is there a chance you more accurately remember how the item was bid on, on reflection?
Did you talk to Ron afterwards, tell him how uncomfortable it made you feel, that it was once off?
Knowing AH rules of the time and now, I would also think this memory would have followed you for years, especially as a lawyer and knowing what could happed to your life's work if you were found to have acted illegally......

I realize it's easier to talk in modified short responses as you have so far, and I actually am with you in what you've said so far about at least fronting the pitchforks while others pathetically hide their involvement.
But it would be helpful to believe you as a fellow human being, if you took a few more words to tell the story so far untold.
About what the act meant to you then and now, and whether you are really so equivocal in judging it today?
You knew it was wrong then, otherwise you would have asked the AH to simply advertise what was being done and be transparent about it......so why so gray today?

[Peter_Spaeth]

//

[Leon]

So YES didn't answer the question? How about NO or Maybe? I don't care what you do it just seems like he answered the question but you keep on keeping on. He let Ron use his account one way or the other. The rest is semantics and I didn't see him lie or anything else about it. He told the truth. He admitted a mistake was made. What more do you want?

Leon,
I believe its post 688 and no it didnt answer what I asked. But If YOU want me to let it go his silence has answered the question for me..

[tiger8mush]

Oh and by the way as was asked of me please put your full name in your post as I dont see it there..
Al S@meo ne

Rob Gordy
tiger8mush@yahoo.com
looking for E121s with a "Lou Gertenrich" back if you have any :)

[batsballsbases]

Leon,
No problem I know he is your friend... Its like you and the Peck + Snyder incident. I know you didnt like it very much and I myself never once commented on it to you. But hay if you want to pencil whip me out of here to as I have always told you no problem.. I had stopped making comments as you know long ago on these posts BUT when a LAWYER came on and Im sorry really didnt tell the truth (the full truth) and did the dance well someone had to call this individual out. So I guess it was me.. Do what you will. I really dont care. Just wanted to stick up for the right side of the law...

[Leon]

I didn't like the P & S issue especially because I did absolutely nothing wrong. Just a small difference. Peter admits he made a mistake. I didn't admit anything except I am out a Peck and Sndyer I bought at auction. There really wasn't anything else except in peoples imaginations. But prefer not to discuss that here, now.

Leon,
No problem I know he is your friend... Its like you and the Peck + Snyder incident. I know you didnt like it very much and I myself never once commented on it to you. But hay if you want to pencil whip me out of here to as I have always told you no problem.. I had stoppe making comments as you know long ago on these posts BUT when a LAWYER came on and Im sorry really didnt tell the truth (the full truth) and did the dance well someone had to call this individual out. So I guess it was me.. Do what you will. I really dont care. Just wanted to stick up for the right side of the law...

[ElCabron]

He told the truth. He admitted a mistake was made.

Not to make this thread all about Peter, but to clarify, he actually didn't tell the truth or admit a mistake was made, did he? This is a long thread so I legitimately might have missed it when he said it was a mistake. I hope he did and I just didn't see it. I know that he did say, "I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate." I read that as the exact opposite of admitting a mistake.

That was from his initial post in this thread. The one where, as he says, he "came on here perfectly willing to be transparent." The way he demonstrated that transparency was to lie about it and say that he was asked to bid for Ron, and he agreed to do it. Ron later posted that he was the one bidding on his own item, using Peter's account. It's not that different either way, but it's also not just semantics. One story was the truth, one was a lie. Maybe we have different ideas about what transparency means.

Again, there are far worse offenders than Peter, but Peter still belongs on the list. Coming on here and lying about it didn't make him look less guilty. Actually transparency and remorse might have gone a long way.

-Ryan

[batsballsbases]

I didn't like the P & S issue especially because I did absolutely nothing wrong. Just a small difference. Peter admits he made a mistake. I didn't admit anything except I am out a Peck and Sndyer I bought at auction. There really wasn't anything else except in peoples imaginations. But prefer not to discuss that here, now.

And Leon,
Like I said I never once made any comment on that issue whether I thought it was right or wrong but somewhere down the line you made a decision to return it. Whether it was right or wrong YOU made that decision and that was your choice. But when this thread started someone came on and made a long statement, then his friend came on and made another long statement., in both statements there were inconsistency, and all I wanted was to clear up some very simple points. Thats all but when the party started to do the dance well thats when I pushed for the truth. Peter I hope you sleep well every night and never stop standing up for truth justice and the american way! I salute you sir...

[trobba]

And Leon,
Like I said I never once made any comment on that issue weather I thought it was right or wrong but somewhere down the line you made a decision to return it. Weather it was right or wrong YOU made that decision and that was your choice. But when this thread started someone came on and made a long statement, then his friend came on and made another long statement., in both statements there were inconsintences and all I wanted was to clear up some very simple points. Thats all but when the party started to do the dance well thats when I pushed for the truth. Peter I hope you sleep well every night and never stop standing up for truth justice and the american way! I salute you sir...

Your points would resonate much more if less attention were drawn to your continued butchering of the English language...most notably in this instance the difference between weather and whether. And for the life of me I cant find inconsintences anywhere in the dictionary, its almost some sort of contraction.

Rob G$the#l

[jason.1969]

And for the life of me I cant find inconsintences anywhere in the dictionary, its almost some sort of contraction.

Rob G$the#l

It is a cross between inconsistent and incontinence. Tough situation to be in.

"Will I need adult diapers for this?"
"Depends."

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[ALR-bishop]

It is a cross between inconsistent and incontinence. Tough situation to be in.

"Will I need adult diapers for this?"
"Depends."

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

:)

[JimStinson]

Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them....Santayana

[whiteymet]

Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....

Al:

Please help me understand why it is so important for you to know if Peter gave Ron his acct info and password and Ron bid from his own computer.

Is there a difference I am missing?

Fred McK.ie

[batsballsbases]

Al:

Please help me understand why it is so important for you to know if Peter gave Ron his acct info and password and Ron bid from his own computer.

Is there a difference I am missing?

Fred McK.ie

Fred,
As I posted he states one thing and then Ron states another. Just wanted the real truth but as I see that isnt going to happen. Fred Im done asking let others carry the torch. If not then you ask him why he wont answer my simple question. But as Leon pointed out the question was asked and answered in a round about way. I believe the word was semantics.(Did I spell that right for you rob) So I will leave it with that.

[slidekellyslide]

Al, it seems pretty clear to me that he took the blame for making the shill bid, then Ron said he made the bid with Peter's account and Peter admitted this is how it went down, but he didn't want to throw Ron under the bus.

From the looks of it this appears to be one guy who wanted his investment protected, suckered a friend into using his account to do so (still bad, still shilling).

Now there are a bunch of guys on that list with MULTIPLE acts of shilling, one of them a major auction house owner who obviously is reading this thread and giving information about people posting here, but is too much of coward to come on here and explain himself.

[1952boyntoncollector]

While my name holds zero gravitas - at least on this board, my kids think I'm a god..:p, can I ask this?

Daniel Enright

I'm surprised the events we are discussing are murky at all for you, and I understand the 9 years part. You were asked to participate in an illegal and surely uncomfortable for-you situation, one you didn't repeat, and from my reading of your posts over the years, its an act that wouldn't have sat right. Generally I feel your call on this board is for the greater good, the moral and ethical right to win out.
So such an even should have seared itself into you mind.
I'm 47, and at age 15 stole a Penthouse magazine from a store, getting caught on the way out. I can see it all very easily right now, my school uniform, which side of my jacket I put the magazine behind, the point at which the owner called for me to stop as I sidled out the door. I had to go to the police station, have my mum pick me up.....I never stole a thing again in my life.
I can't un-remember it.

The part of your story, and what happens to all stories if they contain any innacuracies, is as you tell them over and over aspects that don't jive start to stand out.

Originally you described the action as a single bid, meant to act as a minimum amount your friend Ron would accept. I think you allowed the number of bids, and how you framed it in your mind as a minimum, to mitigate the whole sordid action to yourself. Ron was simply protecting himself from being ripped off by a low offer.

You just now said in your last post, you are unsure of how many bids were placed?
You can see how that would change everything, from setting a minimum to an active effort to shill up another bidder.
I also have a feeling you would have followed the auction more than just casually, to know how it turned out and because it was a moral car crash - it would have been hard to avert your eyes.

Is there a chance you more accurately remember how the item was bid on, on reflection?
Did you talk to Ron afterwards, tell him how uncomfortable it made you feel, that it was once off?
Knowing AH rules of the time and now, I would also think this memory would have followed you for years, especially as a lawyer and knowing what could happed to your life's work if you were found to have acted illegally......

I realize it's easier to talk in modified short responses as you have so far, and I actually am with you in what you've said so far about at least fronting the pitchforks while others pathetically hide their involvement.
But it would be helpful to believe you as a fellow human being, if you took a few more words to tell the story so far untold.
About what the act meant to you then and now, and whether you are really so equivocal in judging it today?
You knew it was wrong then, otherwise you would have asked the AH to simply advertise what was being done and be transparent about it......so why so gray today?

that's actually a really good post...I remember being the get away driver when my 'friend' stole some things from 7-11, I was 16 and when he came to my car the worker from 7-11 was running after him and I drove him away to safety...its not like I was the guy from person of interest to save him....but the 7-11 guy did hit the hood of my chevy nova before I was able to move my car out of his grasp.....i didn't know he was going to the store to steal something but i had a good idea he must of stolen something when the 7-11 guy was running after him outside the store to my car..

on another note I do think I did steal a few wax packs from 7-11, maybe 1988 topps when I was a minor..not sure if it was one or two packs..i not get caught but I feel worse being the get away driver in that other participation of theft....and while I am confessing my sins, I believe the last thing i ever remember stealing was a 'switch-blade' plastic comb and key chain license plate with my name on it that I stole at the gift store in the Twin towers in new York city...

in the years since i have contributed a lot more money to charity that the gross value of the switch blade plastic comb, the key chain license plate, 2 1988 topps wax packs and the slurpee and/or candy my 'friend' took....

[batsballsbases]

Al, it seems pretty clear to me that he took the blame for making the shill bid, then Ron said he made the bid with Peter's account and Peter admitted this is how it went down, but he didn't want to throw Ron under the bus.

From the looks of it this appears to be one guy who wanted his investment protected, suckered a friend into using his account to do so (still bad, still shilling).

Now there are a bunch of guys on that list with MULTIPLE acts of shilling, one of them a major auction house owner who obviously is reading this thread and giving information about people posting here, but is too much of coward to come on here and explain himself.

Dan,
You are absolutely right, there are many others and for that matter I have dealt with and probably been shilled by many of them. Since names were named Andy Imperato a major player with Grey Flannel collectibles, went on his own and has his own auction house. Seems like Jerry Zuckerman was his(Alleged) personal shill in many of his auctions. Then you have Joe Esposito a person who has been called "One of the good guys" and has been talked about in an archive thread 10 years ago as having his auctions shilled (alleged). Big ebay presence I believe B+E collectibles. etc etc. But as for Peter and I am done with him and talking about him, he can live with himself and do what ever he pleases. Im just glad thru PMs from many people that I was not alone in my thoughts about the subject....

[Duluth Eskimo]

I don't want to fuel the fire as I appreciate the fact that Peter came forward early on and admitted fault and described the situation. For those that were not in the hobby then, although I did not participate in this action and have only auctioned one item through an AH, I can tell you this was very common during that era and today. Everyone wanted that BIG money, but no one wanted to sell their item without a reserve. Not that I agree with it, just a fact.

The one thing I think Al is referring to is that the change in the story smells a little. As someone who hears a lot of stories in my career, it sounded like this to me also.

My immediate thought was, why change the story? To me, it reads like you are deflecting the crime. As an attorney you take an oath, and an action you initially described could land an attorney in front of an ethics board or be sanctioned.

In the land of baseball cards and memorabilia, it's no big deal and just wording. Although, in the real world the consequences could be very great. I may be mistaken and could be off course, but either way it's your explanation.

Others mentioned as I did in an earlier post, this was only two years of disclosed records from one auction house. If you think that list was long, the truth in the hobby would probably scare the hell out of the common collector. Most "veterans" assumed this was the case in most of these "big" auctions.

What Peter is "admitting" doing or participating in is the equivalent of speeding at the Indy 500. I haven't seen anyone even attempting to clear their name from these incidents when they would normally be on the board answering a question within the hour. Although, it's hard to explain the unexplainable.

[slidekellyslide]

What Peter is "admitting" doing or participating in is the equivalent of speeding at the Indy 500. I haven't seen anyone even attempting to clear their name from these incidents when they would normally be on the board answering a question within the hour. Although, it's hard to explain the unexplainable.

Exactly. Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.

And let's not fool ourselves, every one of those SOB's on the wrong side of the list who isn't already in prison is following this thread very closely.

[batsballsbases]

Exactly. Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.

And let's not fool ourselves, every one of those SOB's on the wrong side of the list who isn't already in prison is following this thread very closely.

Dan,
Glad I wasnt the only one who named REAL names!!! And yes Peter if they come on and explain themselves I will also ask questions and be the same SOB I was to you...

[David Atkatz]

When I see one of those "Let's share an auction lot" posts on Net54 I feel like that also falls under collusion.I don't agree, Dan. If I only want part of a lot, I'm going to bid knowing that finding a buyer for what I don't want may take some time, and that I may not get near what I need. But if I know beforehand that, effectively, I've got those pieces sold, I most likely will feel free to bid a bit higher. (And that goes for my "partners." Their knowing that they are getting what they want, with the other pieces pre-sold, as it were, enables them to go higher for their particular bit.)

[Rickyy]

[QUOTE=Kenny Cole;1497580]I have tried to stay out thus far. I am now unsuccessful. I am not on either list simply because I didn't' win one of those auctions. I was probably one of those legitimate bidders who bid Ryan up at the same time the auction house or consignor/friend was doing that. We have similar interests. Even by losing, I screwed my friend.

I get all the stuff about altering the price point of the PSA 8 card and whatnot. Blah, blah, blah. Its wonderful to have the best card ever and I am certain that getting that 8.5 so you can drop that ratty 8 is exhilarating. Its just the shits when you find out you paid substantially more than you would have had things been honest. Yawn.

But to me, it is much more basic. Ryan won a lot we probably both bid on. It cost him more than it should have, because neither one of us knew we were both being cheated to begin with. I probably beat him on one of the other auctions that have no bidding records that was also shilled.

QUOTE]

+1 on that... it's just plain wrong to bid on something for reasons other than because you want that item...by someone coming in with nefarious intentions ends up screwing us all...

Ricky Yoneda

[batsballsbases]

I don't agree, Dan. If I only want part of a lot, I'm going to bid knowing that finding a buyer for what I don't want may take some time, and that I may not get near what I need. But if I know beforehand that, effectively, I've got those pieces sold, I most likely will feel free to bid a bit higher. (And that goes for my "partners." Their knowing that they are getting what they want, with the other pieces pre-sold, as it were, enables them to go higher for their particular bit.)

David,
I also dont fell that it falls under collusion. But I always said to myself when someone would post up and say hay lets partner up on this lot. And as we know many AHs look at net 54 all the time and I always said to myself wow what a wonderful way to shill up a lot that you already know has a group of buyers if one wanted to if you get what I mean!!!!!

[Exhibitman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman
Your posts ARE confusing; don't sell yourself short.


ah and your posts really add value and people thank you for their posts...I guess my last post wasn't confusing for you to comment..

I know I will be confused if you actually post something that people in the hobby would value when commenting to me.


and no. posts about .fake 1952 Topps Mantle and Wagners on ebay do not count if you go there...
.

You have no sense of humor...

[Rickyy]

I guess they think they are living in Nazi Germany.

Or Pyongyang....

Ricky Yoneda

[slidekellyslide]

I don't agree, Dan. If I only want part of a lot, I'm going to bid knowing that finding a buyer for what I don't want may take some time, and that I may not get near what I need. But if I know beforehand that, effectively, I've got those pieces sold, I most likely will feel free to bid a bit higher. (And that goes for my "partners." Their knowing that they are getting what they want, with the other pieces pre-sold, as it were, enables them to go higher for their particular bit.)

There was a thread on here early last year which was started by the same Net54 member who started this thread in which he and another bidder agreed to partner up on a lot of rare Topps Hocus Focus cards. The lot sold for $10,000 and there was poor communication between the two partners and the division of the lot did not happen right away. This of course angered the guy who sat out of the bidding and he stated that he would have gone $20,000 on the lot. It all worked out in the end as one guy went on an extended vacation. But the point of all of this is that those two guys getting together on that lot clearly worked in their favor to keep the price down.

Does it always work that way? No, and I have no statistics to show which outcome is more prevalent. I understand why people do it on lots though, it has to be frustrating to see the one card you've been pining for in a lot of stuff that you don't want or need.

[ElCabron]

Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.


JC deserves his own thread here, considering he was an active member for so many years. Please explain yourself, JC. Some of the people you cheated out of their money are board members. Do you still consider yourself a member of net54? (He is definitely reading this thread, btw)

More importantly, a lot of these scumbags are still in business today. Who would still do business with Ken Goldin or Kevin Keating? Lots of you. That's why none of these guys will get any consequences for any of their fraudulent activities, other than getting rich.

There are a lot of misunderstandings and incorrect beliefs about the list. Maybe we can clear some of that up at some point. I think it would really help people get a better understanding about all of this and stop pushing for it to be swept under the rug like it's no big deal.

-Ryan

[Runscott]

There was a thread on here early last year which was started by the same Net54 member who started this thread in which he and another bidder agreed to partner up on a lot of rare Topps Hocus Focus cards. The lot sold for $10,000 and there was poor communication between the two partners and the division of the lot did not happen right away. This of course angered the guy who sat out of the bidding and he stated that he would have gone $20,000 on the lot. It all worked out in the end as one guy went on an extended vacation. But the point of all of this is that those two guys getting together on that lot clearly worked in their favor to keep the price down.

Does it always work that way? No, and I have no statistics to show which outcome is more prevalent. I understand why people do it on lots though, it has to be frustrating to see the one card you've been pining for in a lot of stuff that you don't want or need.

At least they have located the card they need. Splitting a lot at the lowest price possible, through collusion, allows them each to get the one or two cards they want, plus make a larger profit when they re-sell the rest of the lot, than if they had simply bid on it fairly. The only one who loses is the consignor.

[bnorth]

At least they have located the card they need. Splitting a lot at the lowest price possible, through collusion, allows them each to get the one or two cards they want, plus make a larger profit when they re-sell the rest of the lot, than if they had simply bid on it fairly. The only one who loses is the consignor.

I would say there is more than one loser in that story.

[sflayank]

Splitting a lot has nothing to do with shill bidding
If theres a lot of yankees and dodgers and i collect yankees and my brother collects dodgers should we bid against each other?...thats a ridiculous comparison.
Thats why ive railed on people who put in max bids as idiots...bid once and then bid at the end..if you put in a max bid....u might not deserve to get screwed but u will...
If youre famous or well known major collector bid under your cousins name and address so the ah doesnt know u

[xplainer]

This thread makes another turn. Wow.:eek::eek:

[sflayank]

And btw...has any one on t his board figured out why these auction houses wont go to the 15 minute rule per lot?
ITS TO FORCE PEOPLE TO PUT IN MAX BIDS SO THEY DONT HAVE TO STAY UP TIL 4AM.

[sbfinley]

And btw...has any one on t his board figured out why these auction houses wont go to the 15 minute rule per lot?
ITS TO FORCE PEOPLE TO PUT IN MAX BIDS SO THEY DONT HAVE TO STAY UP TIL 4AM.

I get why houses close all at once. It helps bring in more bids. Plenty of times I've reached my limit on one item so I fell back to another I was watching or put an early bid in on. If those would have happened to close early the house and consignor lose money.

[sflayank]

its a total fallacy...if the auction house rules were 15 minutes per lot or even 30 minutes per lot all the bidders would know that and bid accordingly....they want you to go to sleep and put in a max bid.....PERIOD...

[sbfinley]

I disagree, but hey it's a great country and we're allowed to.

[begsu1013]

i don't even think garmin could navigate this thread w/o a hefty dose of tylenol, but could someone transcribe a list of those who have stepped up and commented on their actions for me?

not asking whether you believe or even liked what they had to say, simply of those that had the balls to actually log in and post.

just curious to see how short the list is.

thanks in advance.

"recalculating"

[ullmandds]

i don't even think garmin could navigate this thread w/o a hefty dose of tylenol, but could someone transcribe a list of those who have stepped up and commented on their actions for me?

not asking whether you believe or even liked what they had to say, simply of those that had the balls to actually log in and post.

just curious to see how short the list is.

thanks in advance.

"recalculating"

Shilling in the name of...

[begsu1013]

that was a good one!

i actually thought about posting it, but did not think anyone on here would actually get it.

i'd speculate that the median age of the board members here was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 53...

which basically rules them out of knowing anything about rage against the machine.

bulls on a parade, i guess.

[ullmandds]

im 46

[begsu1013]

38 1/2.

[Runscott]

Splitting a lot has nothing to do with shill bidding
If theres a lot of yankees and dodgers and i collect yankees and my brother collects dodgers should we bid against each other?...thats a ridiculous comparison.
Thats why ive railed on people who put in max bids as idiots...bid once and then bid at the end..if you put in a max bid....u might not deserve to get screwed but u will...
If youre famous or well known major collector bid under your cousins name and address so the ah doesnt know u

Thanks for laying all that knowledge on us.