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t206hound
03-08-2012, 02:34 PM
I'm curious as to what color or color combinations yield the "flesh" tone on T206 cards. Any thoughts?

I ran across an article long ago (http://baseballcards.galib.uga.edu/making-cards/) that states that there were six color layers for T206 cards. In order: yellow, black, brown, blue, green, red.

There was a recent thread (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=146297) where it was speculated that there were more colors:
The process was more than 6 colors, at least for some printings. The ones not usually recognized are in Italics.
Yellow, black, brown, blue, light blue, dark green, red, pink, Gray/tan
I'm positive about blue/light blue being two individual passes, as well as red/pink. I'm less certain about gray/tan. That one could be part of the brown pass which sometimes is more gray.
Here's the upper right corner of Batch showing blue/light blue clearly.

Steve B
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=5834

There is a color called Buff as well-its the flesh tone.

drc
03-08-2012, 03:10 PM
Interesting question. You'd have to out your magnifier and examine some cards. Just now looking at some online pictures, it's clear they used multiple color inks on faces, not including any black.

mrvster
03-08-2012, 03:35 PM
Erick...

Your card is it!!!!;)

Uh ohhhhhhh....


someone might be getting bit by the freak bug.......;)

Blunder19
03-08-2012, 05:36 PM
I have a kruger that just has the yellow ink and then a layer of pink to create an orange background... you can tell its pink becuase the yellow sticks out on the left and the pink sticks out on the right where they were not alligned exactly.

so based on this card.. I would say Pink was a color used.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/Kruger_Front.jpg

atx840
03-08-2012, 06:07 PM
There is a Buff color used, here is a proof I picked up from ALC circa 1909

http://i.imgur.com/TQ4Lp.jpg

bn2cardz
03-08-2012, 06:15 PM
On my "Sunburned" groom example you can see that there was some yellow mixed in with what seems to be two passes of pink (as better seen from the left side).

jimonym
03-08-2012, 08:04 PM
Part of the reason the cards are so eye-appealing is that the artists were masters of teasing the appearance of many, many hues out of a relatively small number of base colors.

For Doc Crandall's portrait I see at least the following base colors, all working together to create a smooth skin tone with some sense of perspective and depth: buff, yellow, light brown, light blue, pink, red and dark brown (or black). The colors are virtually the same as shown in Chris's test strip.

http://www.jimonym.com/Images/File0757.jpg

http://www.jimonym.com/Images/File07571.jpg

mrvster
03-08-2012, 09:06 PM
Great insight guys:d

sirraffles
03-08-2012, 09:18 PM
@atx840 I like the way you picked up on the buff color. I had just finished reading a book on cigar labels and had noticed the same thing. The stippling of other colors really had the potential to bring the faces to life. A stippling artist had to spend five years as an apprentice, they were among the elites in the art department.

steve B
03-09-2012, 10:10 AM
Being able to do stippling by hand is a special talent.

The dot pattern on nearly all printed matter wasn't done by hand. The halftone is made by photographing the original through a filter that's basically a screen the varying ammounts of light through each hole expose the film differently and produce the dot pattern.

One of the things that I like about 1910 era lithography is that they combine halftones which were fairly advanced for the time with more traditional art style layers that don't have a dot pattern. So the T206s are essentially a brown monotone image that's been colored.

That had been pretty much abandoned by the 80's, and likely much sooner.

Modern systems are also screened much finer, and there are systems that are direct from the computer to the plate which is created while it's on the press.

Steve B

sirraffles
03-09-2012, 10:43 PM
Yes, on the T206 series you are correct about the dot pattern. Most of it was not done by hand stippling but through a halftone. I could be wrong but I've looked at a fair number of the T206 cards magnified and it seems that some of the portraits had the halftone enhanced with some hand stippling. The backgrounds often seem to have some stippling too, especially in the skies. Would you agree?

If there was hand stippling plus halftones...I don't think that there were very many things printed like that. It is like a snapshot in time.

Runscott
03-09-2012, 10:55 PM
Being able to do stippling by hand is a special talent.

The dot pattern on nearly all printed matter wasn't done by hand. The halftone is made by photographing the original through a filter that's basically a screen the varying ammounts of light through each hole expose the film differently and produce the dot pattern.

One of the things that I like about 1910 era lithography is that they combine halftones which were fairly advanced for the time with more traditional art style layers that don't have a dot pattern. So the T206s are essentially a brown monotone image that's been colored.

That had been pretty much abandoned by the 80's, and likely much sooner.

Modern systems are also screened much finer, and there are systems that are direct from the computer to the plate which is created while it's on the press.

Steve B

Steve, it's always intrigued me that some of the T206's look almost exactly like the photograph they were taken from (especially the Horners like Wagner, but also some non-portraits such as Donlin seated), while others look like they were drawn from scratch (Bresnahan batting). Others, such as Keeler batting, look like a combination of photography and art. Very interesting stuff - thanks for sharing your expertise!

steve B
03-10-2012, 11:00 AM
Yes, on the T206 series you are correct about the dot pattern. Most of it was not done by hand stippling but through a halftone. I could be wrong but I've looked at a fair number of the T206 cards magnified and it seems that some of the portraits had the halftone enhanced with some hand stippling. The backgrounds often seem to have some stippling too, especially in the skies. Would you agree?

If there was hand stippling plus halftones...I don't think that there were very many things printed like that. It is like a snapshot in time.

Some of the backgrounds are a combination of screened and solid colors. Probably to get the color just right.

And some of the brown halftone areas do look enhanced, often with an outline to strengthen the contrast between colors like a dark uniform and a dark background. Like on Absteins shoulder at the right of the card. That one isn't stippled, so it was probably drawn onto the original art as a solid line.

Enhancing the screened pattern manually would be possible, but lots of work for a production shop. But there are still lots of aspects to how ALC worked that are hard to be sure of.

I know a guy who repaired a damaged halftone for the shop he worked for, a 300dpi image that had been cut in half by mistake with the original no longer available. He said it took about 3 days to line up and splice the two pieces and fill gaps.
I spent a nice couple days fixing plate masks that had been photographed when the camera room was dusty. They'd have redone the whole thing, but time was short and the cost would have taken too much out of the profit. I was much cheaper:eek:

Steve B

t206hound
03-10-2012, 04:59 PM
I wanted to get the general consensus that "buff" (or similar) was part of the printing process. That seems to be extremely likely (if not confirmed). My rationale for asking is that I picked up the following card that I believed had missing red ink. A "buff" color does appear where the red would be in a few cases. I wanted to make sure it wasn't faded/chemical red. I believe this to be a legit missing red ink card of Gilbert, and a few board members concur.

In the scans, notice that the one with red ink does, in fact, have an under layer of buff for the "S" in St. Louis. Also look at the full scan where there is absolutely no red or buff in the belt. BTW, there's also a nice slight ghost on this card to boot.

steve B
03-11-2012, 11:39 AM
Buff is probably what I was calling gray/tan. I wasn't sure if it was a part of the brown at the time. Some cards I have the brown is more grayish.

But the ones I'm seeing here and looking at more of mine make me think buff is its own color.

And buff sounds a bit nicer than tan. :)

Steve B

mrvster
03-11-2012, 11:23 PM
Nice Score ERICK!

At first i was skeptical until you sent to hi res!:D

Eagle EYe Erick....c the PRO;)!!

Thank God your on my side:)

bijoem
03-13-2012, 01:48 PM
Chris -

that ALC proof you have is absolutely outstanding..... and I think says a lot about how the cards might have been printed.

very cool.

t206hound
07-28-2012, 02:06 PM
Well, I've tried twice to get this card slabbed with SGC. I understand that the the TPGs are a little leery of slabbing things like this. There's that whole liability thing. But to me this is a no brainer. I'll take this card to them again at the National and if I don't have success, try at PSA.

Any thoughts from those in the know? I've provided scans of my SGC 40 Gilbert and of the presumed missing red ink Gilbert below:

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/t206hound/raw/5974/gilbert-with-red-inkhttp://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/t206hound/raw/5975/gilbert-missing-red-ink

steve B
07-28-2012, 03:17 PM
That's a tough one. Initial reaction to the higher res was that it was faded. It looks like some reddish tint there, and red fades horribly.

But knowing that they often overlaid pink with red and there being solid pink in the shadow across the body but what looks like none in the belt makes me think missing red.

I can also see why a grading company would be overly cautious and decide not to slab it as a missing color.

Someday I'll have to add looking at the minor missing colors compared to other missing colors and regular cards. I had a pair with a clear but kinda trivial missing red at one time and sold one of them. I still have the one missing red, but I'm pretty sure it's actually more common on that card

Steve B

t206hound
07-28-2012, 03:48 PM
That's a tough one. Initial reaction to the higher res was that it was faded. It looks like some reddish tint there, and red fades horribly.

But knowing that they often overlaid pink with red and there being solid pink in the shadow across the body but what looks like none in the belt makes me think missing red.

Yeah, that was my initial gut when I bought it. But then I started comparing it to other Gilbert's and noticed the layer of pink/buff under the red.

I don't blame SGC for not slabbing it, but I'm 100% certain it is missing that red color pass.

teetwoohsix
07-29-2012, 12:15 PM
Yeah, that was my initial gut when I bought it. But then I started comparing it to other Gilbert's and noticed the layer of pink/buff under the red.

I don't blame SGC for not slabbing it, but I'm 100% certain it is missing that red color pass.

Looks to be missing the red pass to me, when you point out the pink/buff layer uderneath the card with the red. Nice card !!!

Sincerely, Clayton

atx840
01-02-2013, 11:55 PM
I've asked a few members their thoughts on this one and so far its been considered a missing magenta example. There is a slight buff/pinkish B there, similar colour to the face toning and what we see on Erick's Gilbert.

I'd like to list it in the BST and want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the card.

Any input would be appreciated. :D

http://i.imgur.com/Xhhly.jpg

tedzan
01-03-2013, 04:00 AM
Chris

At first glance it appears that it is missing the final color pass in the printing process....RED.

But, on closer observation there is a noticeable hint of the "B" ....very interesting.

Neat card.

TED Z

t206blogcom
01-03-2013, 08:30 AM
Chris - It reminds me of my Dahlen in that it has a faint B.

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/t206-Dahlen-missing-red-ink-color-variation.jpg

ScottFandango
01-03-2013, 12:20 PM
Those faded B's appear because pink was used first..missing red only

t206blogcom
01-03-2013, 12:24 PM
Interesting that they're both Boston Nat'l players with green backgrounds.

atx840
02-14-2013, 08:28 PM
Haven't seen these before...missing or faded?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8505/8475180496_4133d22969_c.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8506/8474093037_40e922fca4_c.jpg

t206blogcom
02-14-2013, 09:31 PM
Chris - I'd say both are missing some red ink. Neither look sun faded to me. Nice cards! You're on a roll with these missing ink cards.

Ronnie73
02-14-2013, 11:54 PM
They are too bright to be faded. Especially the Elberfeld. I would say its missing something. Seems like red is usually printed on orange, yellow, or nothing to get the final red color on T206's.

atx840
02-14-2013, 11:59 PM
Thanks Jason & Ron...appreciate the input.

I'm extra cautious with these types, try to only pickup ones with clean fronts and backs.

Look for them in the BST soon :D

Ronnie73
02-15-2013, 12:32 AM
I also forgot to mention that i'm less likely to agree a color is missing if the card back has major damage. Certain glues can change colors or fade them over time. I would never purchase a missing color card with major back damage but thats just me being cautious. I'm sure there are some with damage that are legit.

One thing that can be done is to try and find the same card where the red printing is just a little off center so you can see the exact color that should be under the red color pass. If you see the orange color that your cards are, then you know its missing the red pass. I did that with my Red Kleinow Batting card just to confirm the hat started with yellow first. Some can be found where theres a little yellow showing on the visor when the red is a little off registration.

http://www.ronaldkornacki.com/RedKleinow.jpg

obcmac
02-15-2013, 09:24 AM
I've asked a few members their thoughts on this one and so far its been considered a missing magenta example. There is a slight buff/pinkish B there, similar colour to the face toning and what we see on Erick's Gilbert.

I'd like to list it in the BST and want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the card.

Any input would be appreciated. :D

http://i.imgur.com/Xhhly.jpg



Ok, I'm a little late with the input. I would like to propose a rule regarding missing colors: Cards with glue stains are not missing magenta (or sometimes other colors)...something in a common adhesive clearly reacted with the magenta ink. They still look neat though.