NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-08-2012, 12:34 PM
t206hound's Avatar
t206hound t206hound is offline
€r!©k §µmmær$
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,233
Default Ink Colors used in T206

I'm curious as to what color or color combinations yield the "flesh" tone on T206 cards. Any thoughts?

I ran across an article long ago that states that there were six color layers for T206 cards. In order: yellow, black, brown, blue, green, red.

There was a recent thread where it was speculated that there were more colors:
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
The process was more than 6 colors, at least for some printings. The ones not usually recognized are in Italics.
Yellow, black, brown, blue, light blue, dark green, red, pink, Gray/tan
I'm positive about blue/light blue being two individual passes, as well as red/pink. I'm less certain about gray/tan. That one could be part of the brown pass which sometimes is more gray.
Here's the upper right corner of Batch showing blue/light blue clearly.

Steve B
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdltn View Post
There is a color called Buff as well-its the flesh tone.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-08-2012, 01:10 PM
drc drc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,621
Default

Interesting question. You'd have to out your magnifier and examine some cards. Just now looking at some online pictures, it's clear they used multiple color inks on faces, not including any black.

Last edited by drc; 03-08-2012 at 01:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-08-2012, 01:35 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,294
Default T206

Erick...

Your card is it!!!!

Uh ohhhhhhh....


someone might be getting bit by the freak bug.......
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-08-2012, 03:36 PM
Blunder19's Avatar
Blunder19 Blunder19 is offline
Jamie
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,203
Default

I have a kruger that just has the yellow ink and then a layer of pink to create an orange background... you can tell its pink becuase the yellow sticks out on the left and the pink sticks out on the right where they were not alligned exactly.

so based on this card.. I would say Pink was a color used.

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-08-2012, 04:07 PM
atx840's Avatar
atx840 atx840 is offline
Chris Browne
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,735
Default

There is a Buff color used, here is a proof I picked up from ALC circa 1909

__________________
T206 gallery
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-08-2012, 04:15 PM
bn2cardz's Avatar
bn2cardz bn2cardz is offline
₳₦ĐɎ ₦ɆɄ฿ɆⱤ₮
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,023
Default

On my "Sunburned" groom example you can see that there was some yellow mixed in with what seems to be two passes of pink (as better seen from the left side).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Groom_CloseupFace.jpg (76.8 KB, 619 views)
File Type: jpg Groom_CloseupLeftSide.jpg (76.0 KB, 613 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-08-2012, 06:04 PM
jimonym's Avatar
jimonym jimonym is offline
J Hull
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: George Close's Doorstep
Posts: 124
Default

Part of the reason the cards are so eye-appealing is that the artists were masters of teasing the appearance of many, many hues out of a relatively small number of base colors.

For Doc Crandall's portrait I see at least the following base colors, all working together to create a smooth skin tone with some sense of perspective and depth: buff, yellow, light brown, light blue, pink, red and dark brown (or black). The colors are virtually the same as shown in Chris's test strip.




Last edited by jimonym; 03-08-2012 at 06:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-08-2012, 07:06 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,294
Default T206

Great insight guys:d
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-08-2012, 07:18 PM
sirraffles sirraffles is offline
Charles Mandel
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Detroit
Posts: 75
Default Buff Color

@atx840 I like the way you picked up on the buff color. I had just finished reading a book on cigar labels and had noticed the same thing. The stippling of other colors really had the potential to bring the faces to life. A stippling artist had to spend five years as an apprentice, they were among the elites in the art department.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-09-2012, 08:10 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

Being able to do stippling by hand is a special talent.

The dot pattern on nearly all printed matter wasn't done by hand. The halftone is made by photographing the original through a filter that's basically a screen the varying ammounts of light through each hole expose the film differently and produce the dot pattern.

One of the things that I like about 1910 era lithography is that they combine halftones which were fairly advanced for the time with more traditional art style layers that don't have a dot pattern. So the T206s are essentially a brown monotone image that's been colored.

That had been pretty much abandoned by the 80's, and likely much sooner.

Modern systems are also screened much finer, and there are systems that are direct from the computer to the plate which is created while it's on the press.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-09-2012, 08:43 PM
sirraffles sirraffles is offline
Charles Mandel
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Detroit
Posts: 75
Default

Yes, on the T206 series you are correct about the dot pattern. Most of it was not done by hand stippling but through a halftone. I could be wrong but I've looked at a fair number of the T206 cards magnified and it seems that some of the portraits had the halftone enhanced with some hand stippling. The backgrounds often seem to have some stippling too, especially in the skies. Would you agree?

If there was hand stippling plus halftones...I don't think that there were very many things printed like that. It is like a snapshot in time.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-09-2012, 08:55 PM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,645
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Being able to do stippling by hand is a special talent.

The dot pattern on nearly all printed matter wasn't done by hand. The halftone is made by photographing the original through a filter that's basically a screen the varying ammounts of light through each hole expose the film differently and produce the dot pattern.

One of the things that I like about 1910 era lithography is that they combine halftones which were fairly advanced for the time with more traditional art style layers that don't have a dot pattern. So the T206s are essentially a brown monotone image that's been colored.

That had been pretty much abandoned by the 80's, and likely much sooner.

Modern systems are also screened much finer, and there are systems that are direct from the computer to the plate which is created while it's on the press.

Steve B
Steve, it's always intrigued me that some of the T206's look almost exactly like the photograph they were taken from (especially the Horners like Wagner, but also some non-portraits such as Donlin seated), while others look like they were drawn from scratch (Bresnahan batting). Others, such as Keeler batting, look like a combination of photography and art. Very interesting stuff - thanks for sharing your expertise!
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-10-2012, 09:00 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirraffles View Post
Yes, on the T206 series you are correct about the dot pattern. Most of it was not done by hand stippling but through a halftone. I could be wrong but I've looked at a fair number of the T206 cards magnified and it seems that some of the portraits had the halftone enhanced with some hand stippling. The backgrounds often seem to have some stippling too, especially in the skies. Would you agree?

If there was hand stippling plus halftones...I don't think that there were very many things printed like that. It is like a snapshot in time.
Some of the backgrounds are a combination of screened and solid colors. Probably to get the color just right.

And some of the brown halftone areas do look enhanced, often with an outline to strengthen the contrast between colors like a dark uniform and a dark background. Like on Absteins shoulder at the right of the card. That one isn't stippled, so it was probably drawn onto the original art as a solid line.

Enhancing the screened pattern manually would be possible, but lots of work for a production shop. But there are still lots of aspects to how ALC worked that are hard to be sure of.

I know a guy who repaired a damaged halftone for the shop he worked for, a 300dpi image that had been cut in half by mistake with the original no longer available. He said it took about 3 days to line up and splice the two pieces and fill gaps.
I spent a nice couple days fixing plate masks that had been photographed when the camera room was dusty. They'd have redone the whole thing, but time was short and the cost would have taken too much out of the profit. I was much cheaper

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-10-2012, 02:59 PM
t206hound's Avatar
t206hound t206hound is offline
€r!©k §µmmær$
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,233
Default Thanks... I believe in "buff"

I wanted to get the general consensus that "buff" (or similar) was part of the printing process. That seems to be extremely likely (if not confirmed). My rationale for asking is that I picked up the following card that I believed had missing red ink. A "buff" color does appear where the red would be in a few cases. I wanted to make sure it wasn't faded/chemical red. I believe this to be a legit missing red ink card of Gilbert, and a few board members concur.

In the scans, notice that the one with red ink does, in fact, have an under layer of buff for the "S" in St. Louis. Also look at the full scan where there is absolutely no red or buff in the belt. BTW, there's also a nice slight ghost on this card to boot.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GilbertWithRedTeam.jpg (7.3 KB, 432 views)
File Type: jpg GilbertNoRedTeam.jpg (8.9 KB, 433 views)
File Type: jpg gilbert001.jpg (73.9 KB, 446 views)
File Type: jpg gilbert002.jpg (60.5 KB, 452 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-11-2012, 09:39 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

Buff is probably what I was calling gray/tan. I wasn't sure if it was a part of the brown at the time. Some cards I have the brown is more grayish.

But the ones I'm seeing here and looking at more of mine make me think buff is its own color.

And buff sounds a bit nicer than tan.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-11-2012, 09:23 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,294
Default T206 no magenta...buff

Nice Score ERICK!

At first i was skeptical until you sent to hi res!

Eagle EYe Erick....c the PRO!!

Thank God your on my side
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-13-2012, 11:48 AM
bijoem's Avatar
bijoem bijoem is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 720
Default

Chris -

that ALC proof you have is absolutely outstanding..... and I think says a lot about how the cards might have been printed.

very cool.
__________________
Joe D.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-28-2012, 12:06 PM
t206hound's Avatar
t206hound t206hound is offline
€r!©k §µmmær$
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,233
Default I've tried twice with SGC...

Well, I've tried twice to get this card slabbed with SGC. I understand that the the TPGs are a little leery of slabbing things like this. There's that whole liability thing. But to me this is a no brainer. I'll take this card to them again at the National and if I don't have success, try at PSA.

Any thoughts from those in the know? I've provided scans of my SGC 40 Gilbert and of the presumed missing red ink Gilbert below:

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-28-2012, 01:17 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,069
Default

That's a tough one. Initial reaction to the higher res was that it was faded. It looks like some reddish tint there, and red fades horribly.

But knowing that they often overlaid pink with red and there being solid pink in the shadow across the body but what looks like none in the belt makes me think missing red.

I can also see why a grading company would be overly cautious and decide not to slab it as a missing color.

Someday I'll have to add looking at the minor missing colors compared to other missing colors and regular cards. I had a pair with a clear but kinda trivial missing red at one time and sold one of them. I still have the one missing red, but I'm pretty sure it's actually more common on that card

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-28-2012, 01:48 PM
t206hound's Avatar
t206hound t206hound is offline
€r!©k §µmmær$
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
That's a tough one. Initial reaction to the higher res was that it was faded. It looks like some reddish tint there, and red fades horribly.

But knowing that they often overlaid pink with red and there being solid pink in the shadow across the body but what looks like none in the belt makes me think missing red.
Yeah, that was my initial gut when I bought it. But then I started comparing it to other Gilbert's and noticed the layer of pink/buff under the red.

I don't blame SGC for not slabbing it, but I'm 100% certain it is missing that red color pass.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:15 AM
teetwoohsix's Avatar
teetwoohsix teetwoohsix is offline
Clayton
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Las Vegas,Nevada
Posts: 2,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t206hound View Post
Yeah, that was my initial gut when I bought it. But then I started comparing it to other Gilbert's and noticed the layer of pink/buff under the red.

I don't blame SGC for not slabbing it, but I'm 100% certain it is missing that red color pass.
Looks to be missing the red pass to me, when you point out the pink/buff layer uderneath the card with the red. Nice card !!!

Sincerely, Clayton
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-02-2013, 09:55 PM
atx840's Avatar
atx840 atx840 is offline
Chris Browne
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,735
Default

I've asked a few members their thoughts on this one and so far its been considered a missing magenta example. There is a slight buff/pinkish B there, similar colour to the face toning and what we see on Erick's Gilbert.

I'd like to list it in the BST and want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the card.

Any input would be appreciated.

__________________
T206 gallery

Last edited by atx840; 01-02-2013 at 09:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-03-2013, 02:00 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Chris

At first glance it appears that it is missing the final color pass in the printing process....RED.

But, on closer observation there is a noticeable hint of the "B" ....very interesting.

Neat card.

TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 01-03-2013 at 05:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-03-2013, 06:30 AM
t206blogcom t206blogcom is offline
Jason Stricker
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,234
Default

Chris - It reminds me of my Dahlen in that it has a faint B.

__________________
T206 518/518
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-03-2013, 10:20 AM
ScottFandango's Avatar
ScottFandango ScottFandango is offline
Scott
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 602
Default B

Those faded B's appear because pink was used first..missing red only
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-03-2013, 10:24 AM
t206blogcom t206blogcom is offline
Jason Stricker
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,234
Default

Interesting that they're both Boston Nat'l players with green backgrounds.
__________________
T206 518/518
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-14-2013, 06:28 PM
atx840's Avatar
atx840 atx840 is offline
Chris Browne
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,735
Default

Haven't seen these before...missing or faded?


__________________
T206 gallery
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-14-2013, 07:31 PM
t206blogcom t206blogcom is offline
Jason Stricker
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,234
Default

Chris - I'd say both are missing some red ink. Neither look sun faded to me. Nice cards! You're on a roll with these missing ink cards.
__________________
T206 518/518
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-14-2013, 09:54 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki - Uncle Nacki
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,002
Default

They are too bright to be faded. Especially the Elberfeld. I would say its missing something. Seems like red is usually printed on orange, yellow, or nothing to get the final red color on T206's.
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-14-2013, 09:59 PM
atx840's Avatar
atx840 atx840 is offline
Chris Browne
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,735
Default

Thanks Jason & Ron...appreciate the input.

I'm extra cautious with these types, try to only pickup ones with clean fronts and backs.

Look for them in the BST soon
__________________
T206 gallery
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-14-2013, 10:32 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
Ron Kornacki - Uncle Nacki
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,002
Default

I also forgot to mention that i'm less likely to agree a color is missing if the card back has major damage. Certain glues can change colors or fade them over time. I would never purchase a missing color card with major back damage but thats just me being cautious. I'm sure there are some with damage that are legit.

One thing that can be done is to try and find the same card where the red printing is just a little off center so you can see the exact color that should be under the red color pass. If you see the orange color that your cards are, then you know its missing the red pass. I did that with my Red Kleinow Batting card just to confirm the hat started with yellow first. Some can be found where theres a little yellow showing on the visor when the red is a little off registration.

__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki

T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki
T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524
T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258
COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28
NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS
Polar Bear 245/250
Sovereign 460 50/52
Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34
Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11

Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-15-2013, 07:24 AM
obcmac obcmac is offline
Mac Wubben
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atx840 View Post
I've asked a few members their thoughts on this one and so far its been considered a missing magenta example. There is a slight buff/pinkish B there, similar colour to the face toning and what we see on Erick's Gilbert.

I'd like to list it in the BST and want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the card.

Any input would be appreciated.



Ok, I'm a little late with the input. I would like to propose a rule regarding missing colors: Cards with glue stains are not missing magenta (or sometimes other colors)...something in a common adhesive clearly reacted with the magenta ink. They still look neat though.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-29-2022, 04:30 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,315
Default

I thought this would be a good thread to post this card in because of the discussion on the "flesh tone"/buff color on t206's.

I've seen numerous examples with a "magenta" shift

[IMG][/IMG]

But I don't recall ever seeing one with a buff shift

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-29-2022, 04:45 PM
JohnP0621 JohnP0621 is offline
John P
Joh.n Per.rotta
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 616
Default Ink colors

I have this Kleinow batting which has a grey color background
Instead of the normal light blue.

John P
Attached Images
File Type: jpg C07BBA5C-20EF-4980-B006-5C15AF324C6A.jpg (195.4 KB, 136 views)
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-30-2022, 08:32 AM
Captainhask Captainhask is offline
Steve Smith
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 62
Default

I've got a Bell that is missing some color. There is actually another one on ebay right now with the same defect and same front back combo. Back is clean so I don't think it is an adheasive issue. It still has the red pass on his lips but is missing the skin tone.

[IMG]
Bell missing color
[/IMG]

Last edited by Captainhask; 12-30-2022 at 08:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-30-2022, 08:48 AM
KCRfan1 KCRfan1 is offline
Lou Simcoe
L0u Sim.coe
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Olathe KS
Posts: 1,712
Default

Could over soaking be the cause of "missing" color?

The Dahlen card looks completely washed out to me.
__________________
My new found obsession the t206!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
T205, T206 & T207 Please Help..... 1975Reds1976 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 4 05-09-2011 09:04 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:51 PM.


ebay GSB