REA Piedmont Cigarette Packs - Fall 2024

[Joe_G.]

I don't follow 20th century packs nearly as closely as the 19th century packs I collect, but this find has piqued my interest. I believe one key detail from this find is the fact that the carton was shipped out post-ATC break-up (late 1911) . . .

. . . due to presences of "W. Duke, Sons & Co. - Branch of Liggett & Myers Tobacco Co."



Some Context (Chronology)
On October 2nd, 1911 the ATC proposed a break-up of the ATC per Supreme Court mandate which would form American Tobacco, Liggett & Myer, and Lorillard. On November 8th, 1911 the courts approved the break-up that among many, many other things, would place the Piedmont brand under W Duke, Sons, & Co., a branch of the Liggett & Myers Co.

The question then becomes, how late do we believe T206 cards were packaged in Piedmont boxes?

On a side note, it is possible all these packs were produced before November 8th with application of the sticker that mentions "W Duke, Sons, & Co. - Branch of Liggett & Myers Tobacco Co." on or after November 8th, 1911. Since the packs themselves do not yet reference Liggett & Myers I think they were very close to the transition date (before, on, or just after Nov. 8th, 1911).

On yet another side note, the Philadelphia Athletics would clinch the World Series on October 26th, 1911, over the NY Giants.

These packs are fantastic regardless of whether they held a T206 and are likely about as close as one can get to a pack that did hold a card. I welcome other's thoughts.

[Lobo Aullando]

Trying to read up on overstamps, if that's even relevant. (Someone please chime in.) I gather the "Series of 1910" stamps were used through the middle of that decade, so if an overstamp isn't present, that presumably means the pack was made in 1910... or is simply missing the overstamp.

If we could track down when Fatima started with the 20-packs, then that would seem put another constraint on it. And it does seem logical that a new delivery of an existing product would come out when competition suddenly ramps back up. Another conjectural point for having been shipped around the time of the breakup.

[ullmandds]

While I know practically nothing about old cigarette packs, the packs I have seen in the past that contained cards all had cellophane wrapping around the outside. Why do these not?

[Joe_G.]

A few facts to follow-up on . . .

Tax Stamp
The tax stamps should have an overprint/cancel that would allow more accurate dating of the packs but they do not. The stamp itself is what is referred to as a "Series of 1910" stamp and was in use from July 1st, 1910 until 1917. Congress passed the new tax rate into law ($1.25/ thousand smokes) on Aug. 5th, 1909 but the new tax rate and stamp were not effective until July 1st, 1910. So these packs are no earlier than 7/1/1910 based on the Series of 1910 stamp.

ATC to Liggett & Myer Transition
All the packs reference American Tobacco Company; no reference to Liggett & Myer on the packs. However, if the packs came from the carton that is also being auctioned off . . . that carton dates to no earlier than Nov. 8th 1911 as it references "W. Duke, Sons & Co. - Branch of Liggett & Myer Tobacco Co. This entity didn't exist before Nov. 8th, 1911.

I believe it is likely that the packs and the carton itself were produced very close to Nov. 8th 1911 and that the "Free" 20 count pack of Fatima cigarettes was a late addition with that sticker placed on the carton just before it left the newly formed Liggett & Myer Tobacco Co. in ~November of 1911. Shortly after this time period the packs themselves would also be updated to reference Liggett & Myer Tobacco Co.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

While I know practically nothing about old cigarette packs, the packs I have seen in the past that contained cards all had cellophane wrapping around the outside. Why do these not?

Same thoughts. I as well know nothing. Is the thinking here that these packs actually have cards in them?

[nolemmings]

A couple of questions from someone who does not collect either tobacco packs or the 'Monster":
1. If the carton and presumably the packs inside were issued in 1911, maybe even late that year, wouldn't it be more probable that the packs would contain a T205 card, not T206 (if any)?
2. How was this carton "repurposed" to sell Fatima cigs? Wouldn't the store owner discard the carton when the Piedmont packs were sold rather than return it to the factory or distributor for re-use or re-purposing? If instead it was leftover at the factory and never sent out until re-labeled for Fatima, wouldn't the packs inside also be Fatima and not the Piedmont's being auctioned here?

[Eric72]

There was another thread on this; however, it didn't gain traction. So, I'll mention "CT Scanning" again here.

It seems to me this is precisely the type of item an owner would scan.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

How was this carton "repurposed" to sell Fatima cigs?

Hello Todd, the carton was not repurposed to sell Fatima cigarettes but instead announces that either a single pack of 20 or a pair of 10 count Fatima packs were included with the Piedmont packs. These were free to the retailer, an incentive to buy more Piedmont cigarettes or perhaps a simple thank you to the retailer during the ATC break-up.

[nolemmings]

Thanks Joe-- I should have studied it more closely before asking, but what about my other question-- why would the packs not contain a T205 instead of a T206, assuming they held any cards at all?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Eric72

There was another thread on this; however, it didn't gain traction. So, I'll mention "CT Scanning" again here.

It seems to me this is precisely the type of item an owner would scan.

I’ve heard conflicting reports on whether a scan can provide much in the way of detail. But maybe you’re just hoping to ascertain whether there are signs that a card might be inside, and not just smokes?

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Eric72

There was another thread on this; however, it didn't gain traction. So, I'll mention "CT Scanning" again here.

It seems to me this is precisely the type of item an owner would scan.

I'm sure someone can dig it up, but Beckett did an article on CT scanning tobacco packs probably 25 years ago. The only thing "new" about the phenomenon is that it's being marketed to collectors now.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks Joe-- I should have studied it more closely before asking, but what about my other question-- why would the packs not contain a T205 instead of a T206, assuming they held any cards at all?

Great question Todd, I leave this to the many T205 and T206 experts out there, those sets are outside of my wheelhouse.

[packs]

I have a distinct memory of being at the HOF when I was a kid, maybe around 10 or 11, and seeing unopened Cracker Jack boxes with scans next to them that showed the cards inside. I want to say one was a Walter Johnson still in its box. But it could have been a dream I haven’t been back.

[Stonepony]

https://industrialinspection.com/car...nning-service/

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

https://industrialinspection.com/car...nning-service/

100% Dave.

If anybody thinks these packs were not scanned prior to REA’s getting them, I have scratched off lottery tickets to sell them. There is too just much $ reward at stake (despite the massive odds).

[raulus]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

100% Dave.

If anybody thinks these packs were not scanned prior to REA’s getting them, I have scratched off lottery tickets to sell them. There is too just much $ reward at stake (despite the massive odds).

Seems like the sort of thing that should be disclosed. Or at least in my mind it falls into the same category as disclosing card doctoring.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by raulus

Seems like the sort of thing that should be disclosed. Or at least in my mind it falls into the same category as disclosing card doctoring.

There’s no proof either way. REA did the best / only thing they could with a disclosure these may not contain a card.

[jingram058]

I find it amazing that there are so many t cards in existence, and yet basically nothing in the way of some unopened carton or pack that got hidden away or forgotten about somewhere that actually contains a card(s).

[raulus]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I find it amazing that there are so many t cards in existence, and yet basically nothing in the way of some unopened carton or pack that got hidden away or forgotten about somewhere that actually contains a card(s).

I’m guessing the smokes had something to do with it. Don’t want to let those go to waste!