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  #1  
Old 11-05-2018, 10:54 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
Ryan
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Default SGC Issue at Boston's Shriners Show

I'm curious to know if any fellow net54 members have experienced similar issues dealing with SGC?

While attending Boston's 2018 Shriners Show, I went to SGC to get this 1921 National Caramel card that once belonged to Buck Barker authenticated. I had several letters of Buck's with me for verification. The kid next to me said that that was an option that could be done. However, the conversation went down hill from there because the guy next to him told me the exact opposite -that they don't authenticate cards like this -despite corroborating evidence like other known cards and a letter Barker wrote to Walt Corson for comparison. The guy told me that they don't do handwriting analysis and that any corroborating material has to come from family members. Say what? Carter's card came directly from Doug Allen.

I then showed him a card they graded from Lionel Carter's collection and asked him when that card was sent in (2-15-07). I asked him who sent it in and he said it was an auction house, that it wasn't Carter himself. They refused to tell me who the auction house was but I already knew. It was Bill Mastro and Doug Allen, and there is video of that by both men on youtube...so why at this point be evasive?

Is SGC favoring auction houses over dealers and schmucks such as myself (a question SGC refused to answer when I asked)? How much money is going in to the these grading companies from the auction houses in order to receive preferential treatment?

If I was at an auction house, then they would grade it? The grader at SGC said I needed evidence and I showed it to him and he still refused. Is the auction house's expertise any better or worse than mine? This sounds like it's pay to play and the auction houses send these grading companies a shit load of money. How is this a level playing field? I left so bullshit that I ate not one, but two of those lousy hotdogs at the concession stand!

What do you all say about this? Thanks -Ryan
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  #2  
Old 11-05-2018, 12:47 PM
bigfish bigfish is offline
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Default An opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat61 View Post
I'm curious to know if any fellow net54 members have experienced similar issues dealing with SGC?

While attending Boston's 2018 Shriners Show, I went to SGC to get this 1921 National Caramel card that once belonged to Buck Barker authenticated. I had several letters of Buck's with me for verification. The kid next to me said that that was an option that could be done. However, the conversation went down hill from there because the guy next to him told me the exact opposite -that they don't authenticate cards like this -despite corroborating evidence like other known cards and a letter Barker wrote to Walt Corson for comparison. The guy told me that they don't do handwriting analysis and that any corroborating material has to come from family members. Say what? Carter's card came directly from Doug Allen.

- I understand their point. There in the business or giving cards a numerical grade. Cutting through all of red tape to drill down to verify it’s from a particular person is probably not what they want to spend their time on. Even with the letters you’re second down in the chain. Looks like Doug Allen dealt directly with the family is was/is easily verifiable.


I then showed him a card they graded from Lionel Carter's collection and asked him when that card was sent in (2-15-07). I asked him who sent it in and he said it was an auction house, that it wasn't Carter himself. They refused to tell me who the auction house was but I already knew. It was Bill Mastro and Doug Allen, and there is video of that by both men on youtube...so why at this point be evasive?

- not sure it’s their practice to disclose who submitted cards. Alittle bit of a confidentially issue. Even though it appears clear. Why ask the question?

Is SGC favoring auction houses over dealers and schmucks such as myself (a question SGC refused to answer when I asked)? How much money is going in to the these grading companies from the auction houses in order to receive preferential treatment?

- I would say no. As stated above Doug dealt directly with the family. Easy to verify.

If I was at an auction house, then they would grade it? The grader at SGC said I needed evidence and I showed it to him and he still refused. Is the auction house's expertise any better or worse than mine? This sounds like it's pay to play and the auction houses send these grading companies a shit load of money. How is this a level playing field? I left so bullshit that I ate not one, but two of those lousy hotdogs at the concession stand!

- I don’t see it as pay for play. Doug dealt directly with the family. You did not. Now if you dealt directly with the family on one of the largest collections ever assembled, I believe you would have received the same treatment as Doug. Your’re second fiddle here and I see why SGC doesn’t want to get into the business of playing Sherlock Holmes to verify letters from families of famous people. I am sure they are jammed with just grading cards.

What do you all say about this? Thanks -Ryan

Just a neutral opinion from someone who has no skin in the game.
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  #3  
Old 11-05-2018, 04:11 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
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I had a similar issue with PSA last month; bought two P2 pins of Harry Lord from the Harry Lord collection auctioned by Saco River. Sent them in to PSA that said hundred year old pins/cards of a player owned by said player aren't important enough to be given a pedigree.
Maybe if Saco had sent the 15-20 in all at once with provenance from the family, but not just for the two items I won during the auction.
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  #4  
Old 11-05-2018, 04:27 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
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It was well-known that Allen was submitting Carter's collection; that's a bit different with due respect than someone just walking up to their booth asking them to assess letters.
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  #5  
Old 11-05-2018, 06:05 PM
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familytoad familytoad is offline
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While I concur with the others who say SGC doesn’t want to be in the provenance game on who used to own what, if they were going to do so, you looked prepared.

I kinda like the slabs with the hobby pioneer names on them.

Not so seriously...Maybe had you told them about your dedication to the cause by eating two disgusting hot dogs...they could have been swayed.
Eating the “lips and tails special” on the way in , instead of out...could’ve made the difference
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  #6  
Old 11-05-2018, 06:17 PM
Marchillo Marchillo is online now
St3phen M@rchillo
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Next time drive to Simards Super Roast 10 minutes away. Better than the hotdog stand (I grew up in Wilmington Ma).

Sorry about your experience. I’ve had nothing but good experiences with SGC but I’m only submitting very common items.
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  #7  
Old 11-05-2018, 09:11 PM
JAP78 JAP78 is offline
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I completely agree with Marchillo on both topics. Simahds (proper pronounciation..lol) is an elite eatery compared to the concession stand at Shriners. Gotta go "3 way king beef" to fully appreciate the excellence of such an establishment.
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:31 PM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
Ryan
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If you haven't seen these threads yet, I suggest that you do so. I also suggest that we start cleaning up this hobby fast and start holding people accountable. As I am to understand, Bill Mastro and company signed an agreement through his lawyers that he's never to do business again in the hobby.

To put it mildly, I wasn't thrilled by many of the responses to my thread about this, but unfortunately I feel a little vindicated. This isn't something to feel good about and I know how much money is involved which is why some dealers are willing to look the other way. It's only when you screw over the wrong person that change starts to come.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=1#post1830616
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:35 PM
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Corporal Lance Boil Corporal Lance Boil is offline
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Default Lord collection

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
I had a similar issue with PSA last month; bought two P2 pins of Harry Lord from the Harry Lord collection auctioned by Saco River. Sent them in to PSA that said hundred year old pins/cards of a player owned by said player aren't important enough to be given a pedigree.
Maybe if Saco had sent the 15-20 in all at once with provenance from the family, but not just for the two items I won during the auction.
I am glad I read this. I won the TTT back T204 of Lord from Saco and was going to send it in. Now the only provenance I have that it was his is from the auction description.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2018, 07:34 PM
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LOUCARDFAN LOUCARDFAN is offline
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I can tell you for a fact that one certain auction house used to get preferred treatment from PSA as I have experienced it first hand. I consigned a very large ungraded collection to Mastro back in 1999 and when discussing the collection and potential cards to grade, I was told by Brian Marren with Mastro to let them send the cards in to grade as any cards on the fence would get the bump to the higher grade.

Don't believe for a second that any auction house submissions aren't known by the graders.
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  #11  
Old 11-30-2018, 09:29 AM
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jchcollins jchcollins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOUCARDFAN View Post
I can tell you for a fact that one certain auction house used to get preferred treatment from PSA as I have experienced it first hand. I consigned a very large ungraded collection to Mastro back in 1999 and when discussing the collection and potential cards to grade, I was told by Brian Marren with Mastro to let them send the cards in to grade as any cards on the fence would get the bump to the higher grade.

Don't believe for a second that any auction house submissions aren't known by the graders.
This, above. My problem on the whole right now with TPG's. Due respect but the Buck Barker provenance thing sounds like an anomaly. I would have been pissed too, but sounds like it would have been a huge PITA for them to authticate that at the show based on the fact that they themselves didn't seem to know the rules, and they just didn't want to do it.

The larger issue that I agree with is known auction houses and huge dealers getting preferrential treament. How many times either here or on Facebook groups do you see jokes about Probstein/PWCC/4 Sharp Corners? Oh, that's a "4SC 8". The foundation of it goes back further than that. The evidence today is kind of scant, but it stands to reason depending on what you read - that back during Mastro's heyday the man employed a virtual department of card doctors. How many of those cards wound up in PSA slabs due to a cozy arrangment? It stands to reason at least some (and of course I'm not including here the example of the most expensive card in the hobby...) I've seen primers you can find on Google on card doctoring - corner restoration, etc. - and some of their examples of bad cards you can clearly see the card is IN a PSA slab while this is being pointed out. That kind of thing is the more egregous stuff. What you do increasingly see evidence of is auction house submits a card with a wrinkle on the back that gets a 6, Joe Blow collector submits the same card and gest a 4. I don't have personal evidence of this but I've seen enough examples to more or less believe it's true.
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