NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for BSelling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-15-2012, 08:20 PM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default T205 Graham discussion

A while back I posted that there was 2 different types of T205 Graham Signature variations. One is a "Blue Signature on front" variation and the other is "Black Signature on front" variation. Since both of these can be found on Piedmont and Sweet Caporal as well as some others this would fall into the actual variation "CLAUSE" right? There seems to be no lack of either but the Black Signature would be the scarcer of the 2 since the blue is almost on all known backs and the black is only on a few. There is no premium added to either since they both sell at the same price but I feel as time goes the blue signature may carry a very small premium since there are less of them.

I am looking for input on this subject. Would a nice write up with pics of the cards F/B be enough for SGC, SCD, PSA to recognize? I am just wondering because they did the Matty Cycle error but never heard why they did finally recognize it. Hope to hear some good thoughts/opinions on this.



a few links and pics. only the pics are/were mine


Graham Blue Pied. Fact. 25 courtesy of Tim/abravefan:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-D...2520Graham.jpg

Graham Blue PB Fact. 6:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T205-GEORGE-...#ht_2356wt_956

Graham Black Pied. 25:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-T205-Pi...#ht_720wt_1189

The pics are of a Sweet Cap Fact 42, Broadleaf Olive green Fact. 25, American Beauty Black Fact. 42, and Cycle Fact.25.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg graham signature variation.jpg (77.8 KB, 384 views)
File Type: jpg graham signature variation_0001.jpg (73.3 KB, 382 views)

Last edited by Pup6913; 04-15-2012 at 11:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-15-2012, 09:30 PM
Wite3's Avatar
Wite3 Wite3 is offline
Joshua
J0shua Le.vine
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,219
Default

Still not convinced especially since your two links show that the sig. Is black on pied. 25...still have not seen a piedmont 25 blue scan yet...I would consider this a variation like cycle Matty...

Btw...do people consider the different m or e cards(like globe, Indianapolis brewing, sporting news, etc.) which use the same format, same pics, but different advertising as different sets or variations? I view the Matty cycle just like this..not a variation but a different card set or subset with different advertising.

Joshua
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-15-2012, 09:35 PM
familytoad's Avatar
familytoad familytoad is offline
Br1@n L1ndh0lm3
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ridgefield, WA
Posts: 1,578
Default pass?

Andrew,
I can clearly remember passing on the first T205 Graham I saw that had the blue signature...I thought it was overwritten or traced by some kid with blue pen. That was probably 17-18 years ago, Albany NY card show. I was very early into the T205 set.
It took me a little while to see another in person (I wasn't on eBay... if it even existed then) and then I noticed it again...and looked closer to determine that it was a non-altered card. I don't have a scan handy, but when I do...I'll post here.
So I have had the Graham a long time, meaning I passed at looking for more of them over the years. In fact I probably don't even have a black-ink version...but maybe.
I do think this is a legitimate variation, and should be in the "master set".

FWIW, I'm less fond of having the Cycle Back Mathewson listed, as that card only exists with one back type (as you point out) and looks like a simple misprint rather than a true unique version. What I mean is...like say, the Collins/Bresnahan/Chase/Wiltse pose variations or the different signature lines (Crandall, Graham, Leifield)

Here's another opportunity to promote my proposed new website
damnyoukaiserwilhelm.com
__________________
Thanks!

Brian L
Familytoad
Ridgefield, WA

See my SGC HOF Collection here:
http://www.sgccard.com/customsetcomposition.aspx?id=463
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:11 PM
Matt Matt is offline
Matt Wieder
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 2,357
Default

The difference between this and the 37-1 Matty (and different add backs) is that with the 37-1 Matty, there is clearly a different printing text used for the non-advertising part of the back. It's as if a player had his team listed as Philadelphia on one card and Pittsburgh on another; regardless of if such a variation corresponded to a certain advertising back or not, it is categorically different than something like this Graham printing issue, which could simply because by a different mixing of the inks.
__________________
To send me a Private Message, click here.
Please check out my albums.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:26 PM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Piedmont Fact. 25 Blue Signature on front link fixed.

This would make for a variation then. There is a Piedmont Fact 25 for both Blue and Black, and would say the Blue Signature on front is of lesser quantity.

Last edited by Pup6913; 04-15-2012 at 11:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:34 AM
Wite3's Avatar
Wite3 Wite3 is offline
Joshua
J0shua Le.vine
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,219
Default

Andrew...now I see that there are two versions for the piedmont and I would consider this a variation. Thanks for fixing the link.

Joshua
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:37 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 6,436
Default

Cool! a T205 thread I can contribute to. (I have maybe 20 of them and haven't studied them much. )

My Graham is P25 black sig.

Some color differences can be from the ink mixing, but black was nearly always done with various forms of carbon as the pigment,(For printing inks ca 1911) and it just doesn't fade and didn't need to be mixed.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:02 AM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

So here is the million dollar question then. Should it be only the Piedmont Fact 25 Blue Signature on front or should each card be labeled as such with the appropriate signature color and the emphasis being that Pied fact. 25 Blue being the hardest. I would think that Graham Blue Signature on front for only the Piedmont Fact 25 would be a good label. Any thoughts?


Even though the Black signature is far less plentiful on the Graham FB combos the Blue Signature Piedmont Fact 25 will be the the rarer of the 2. There can at anytime be 5 to 1 Black to blue Piedmont 25. I have only seen a few over the past few months and think there will be far less now.

BTW if anyone has any to show it would be nice to possibly see what the ratio we as board members may have. I also believe that the sweet caporal reds have the same blue and black signature variation

Last edited by Pup6913; 04-16-2012 at 09:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-16-2012, 04:49 PM
dherm360 dherm360 is offline
Dave
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 146
Default

I have a Piedmont 25 with Black Sig
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-18-2012, 09:46 AM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Please if any of you have any others not shown especially the Sweet Caporal backs post them. Or what ever you have for that matter for a better count on blue to black Pied 25
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-19-2012, 09:09 PM
nebboy's Avatar
nebboy nebboy is offline
John Hanssen
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 892
Default

I know I have a black and a blue version, I 'll have to get back to you on the backs. And yes as soon as I found that there were diffrent version I added each to my collection for a own master set.. John - Nebboy
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:26 PM
T205Guy's Avatar
T205Guy T205Guy is offline
Ed Cavagnaro
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 51
Default

Hi,

I thought I would throw my collection of Grahams into the mix. I have the following cards:

BLUE signatures: American Beauty, Broad Leaf (Olive), Drum, Honest Long Cut, Piedmont (F25), Polar Bear, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal.

BLACK signatures: Cycle and CUBS Variation with Hassan (F649).

Looks like we need a Master checklist...

Ed
Attached Images
File Type: jpg T205 Graham 1.jpg (77.7 KB, 170 views)
File Type: jpg T205 Graham 1 - Backs.jpg (76.4 KB, 174 views)
File Type: jpg T205 Graham 2.jpg (76.2 KB, 172 views)
File Type: jpg T205 Graham 2 - Backs.jpg (76.6 KB, 171 views)
File Type: jpg T205 Graham 3.jpg (39.8 KB, 171 views)
File Type: jpg T205 Graham 3 - Backs.jpg (50.6 KB, 171 views)
File Type: jpg T205 Graham Cubs.jpg (51.5 KB, 168 views)
File Type: jpg T205 Graham Cubs - Back.jpg (53.6 KB, 168 views)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:57 PM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 6,117
Default

Sweet Cap - Blue Sig on my only Graham
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER, WHO STANDS BY MY IRON CLAD GUARANTEE.

I CAN SELL ANY BASEBALL CARD FOR LESS THAN YOU PAID FOR IT.

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION


444/1000 Monster Number

Over*810* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-20.
Over 600 sales with satisfied Board members served.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.

Last edited by frankbmd; 05-05-2016 at 09:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-20-2012, 09:24 PM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ed you need the Pied 25. Black. You have the toughest of them so far being the Pied 25 Blue signature. Nice run there BTW.
Does anyone have a Black Sweet cap back? Does it exist? So far only the Pied 25 has both Black and Blue signatures. Thanks to those that have contributed so far. Hope we see more of these soon.

Last edited by Pup6913; 04-20-2012 at 09:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-21-2012, 01:59 AM
Jantz's Avatar
Jantz Jantz is offline
Archive
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,737
Default

Andrew

Not sure if you're looking to purchase another Graham Piedmont 25 Blue Sig, but I'll PM you the details just incase.


Jantz
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-22-2012, 06:26 AM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantz View Post
Andrew

Not sure if you're looking to purchase another Graham Piedmont 25 Blue Sig, but I'll PM you the details just incase.


Jantz
Thanks Jantz.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-22-2012, 11:43 AM
T205Guy's Avatar
T205Guy T205Guy is offline
Ed Cavagnaro
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pup6913 View Post
Ed you need the Pied 25. Black. You have the toughest of them so far being the Pied 25 Blue signature. Nice run there BTW.
Does anyone have a Black Sweet cap back? Does it exist? So far only the Pied 25 has both Black and Blue signatures. Thanks to those that have contributed so far. Hope we see more of these soon.
Andrew - Thanks - I seem to remember from an old post that you thought a "Cycle" Blue Signature might exist. I was just wondering if this might be a Blue/Black combo as well? Also does anyone have a HLC or Soveriegn "Black" Signature?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-22-2012, 02:33 PM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by T205Guy View Post
Andrew - Thanks - I seem to remember from an old post that you thought a "Cycle" Blue Signature might exist. I was just wondering if this might be a Blue/Black combo as well? Also does anyone have a HLC or Soveriegn "Black" Signature?
I have not confirmed it yet. Only the Pied 25. I am pretty sure the SC has them also. If not then it makes it a Very tough variation.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-22-2012, 11:58 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 29,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wite3 View Post
Still not convinced especially since your two links show that the sig. Is black on pied. 25...still have not seen a piedmont 25 blue scan yet...I would consider this a variation like cycle Matty...

Btw...do people consider the different m or e cards(like globe, Indianapolis brewing, sporting news, etc.) which use the same format, same pics, but different advertising as different sets or variations? I view the Matty cycle just like this..not a variation but a different card set or subset with different advertising.

Joshua
I will defer to your reasoning on this Piedmont color issue....but in answer to the other part....
.
.
For me, the M101-4/5 ad backs are different sets, can be collected that way, but are categorized according to the American Card Catalog numbering scheme. Several of the ads have their own designation but most don't.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:55 PM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Just wanted to see if anyone has added anymore to their collection or may have came across something else. Made a call to SGC and never got a response. Not suprised but I thought they would atleast make a return call.

Also to add I would say this card should be added to the basic set list since it is not an error card. Any thoughts on this?
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New T205 Variation Graham "Blue Signature" Pup6913 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 9 08-11-2011 01:13 PM
T205 Peaches Graham Questionable Ebay Auction T's please Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 3 05-14-2009 05:10 PM
For Discussion: Relative Values of T206 and T205 Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 3 06-02-2006 10:57 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:35 AM.


ebay GSB