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I knew the immediate responses to my post were going to rile people up.
I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I don't care about Ty Cobb's report of hearing a ball hiss. Sure, Johnson threw very hard for the era. I'm sure in 1920 people were also saying "my god. . . the automated horseless carriage just flew buy me at lightening speed. . . ." Everything is relative. Having said that, some of these guy were throwing plenty hard. Not they weren't over 100, but they threw damm hard. And comparing people from different eras with all the variables at play is just silly. Last edited by Snapolit1; 04-25-2024 at 03:01 PM. |
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Yes, but I do think that pitcher effectiveness, including the fastball, might just be the closest you can get in all of sports. And in my research, I did pay a lot of attention to the opinions of people who experienced the game close at hand in the "Golden Era" and were still doing that several generations later, into the 1980s, in fact. While certainly not dispositive, and allowing for some generational bias, you have to listen to them. And I don't think I ever came across any of the old timers who claimed that Nolan Ryan was faster than Johnson, not one; or Ryne Duren; or Sandy Koufax; or Herb Score; or Bob Feller (who was always the first to say he thought that Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever and also the fastest); or Lefty Grove; or Dazzy Vance. Who knows what they would have to say about Clemons, or Pedro, or Randy Johnson, or Chapman, etc.? The string runs out when all the old guys are dead. One thing we know for sure is that one of these days, if not already, someone will come along who throws harder than Johnson did. That's guaranteed. Records are made to be broken, as the saying goes, and Walter has lost a lot of them over the years. I can hear him now, saying, "Well, that's just fine," in his Kansas twang. But Larry Ritter didn't name his book "The Glory of All Times" for a reason. To be "The Glory of Their Times" is all any of us could ask for, and those guys knew they were the luckiest sons of bitches ever born, to be where they were doing what they did. That will always have to be enough for them--and for us.
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Not challenging your research, but I'm not impressed by generational bias. I talk to seniors all the time . . . everything was great in the 40s and 50s. . . no one had any issues . . . . everyone was unfailingly polite . . . my god all the singers were so much more talented than people today. . . . my god the movies were all so much better..... I'm sure you get the idea. I think we all sugar coat the good old days as we get older to more or less degrees. And I think its particularly pronounced in sports.
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People always say the music from the 50s and 60s was so great. It wasn’t. There was a ton of garbage music. But that goes away into obscurity and what it played on classic rock stations today is the 1% of hit songs. You hear the one hit wonder …. Not the six terrible albums the same band recorded. Same with movies. The great movies from the 70s are a staple of television. No one plays the bad movies. Television from the 70s and 80s is not 1/1 millionth as good as the production value and quality of what is available to stream today.
Last edited by Snapolit1; 04-26-2024 at 05:07 AM. |
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Last edited by Hankphenom; 04-26-2024 at 03:13 PM. |
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I guess the ancient Egyptian pyramid builders wouldn't be able to construct a single-bedroom bungalow nowadays, because they wouldn't know the first thing about computerized AutoCAD programs. Sure, makes sense.
Can we just stop going down this same rabbit hole time after time after time, and just enjoy the video for what it is??? I'm beggin' ya!!!
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There is nothing to be said, other than to express one's own biases.
Mike... that is that Trout guy's name. I've not seen him play. I've watched a few innings of games in which he played with whatever the MLB subscription I have is (which is crap because for various reasons they black out 30+ games a season when I wanna watch the Cardinals). Trout doesn't seem to me to be all that other people see. I don't think he is a lock for the HOF. I'd not be upset if he didn't get in. I recall hearing a Dad tell his young son how great a player some Strasburg guy was, he was an unbeatable pitcher who would certainly be in the Hall. It was a "lock," I heard, whatever that was. I think he is no longer in the majors. I don't think he'll make the Hall, I don't think he ever won 20 games in the Majors. I felt that when that Dad was talking back then, I think that now about Trout stuff. I don't think pitcher bore down throwing quality pitches on every pitch. I don't think Johnson threw competitive fastballs that were going 83 miles an hour. Golly, as a kid (20-25 years of age) I think I could throw in the high 70s and occasionally in the very low 80s. Walter Johnson could vastly surpass that. I stood in on guys throwing in the low 90s. I can't imagine that Walter was throwing that slow. (Should that have been slowly? Stood in equates to I was in the batter's box and lacked the ability to take a timely swing at a ball moving in the low 90s, nor the high 80s, nor the mid 80s) Of course I didn't see Walter pitch. But I can't imagine that if he pitched now he'd be mediocre. The runners in the video aren't running faster, the video of the film is from a film that's running faster. NEGATIVE 1. I applaud that up there, and agree with it. I saw a game in St. Louis in the old ball park, sat in the right field pavilion with the screen in front of it. Starters were Gibson and Koufax. I can still hear the pop of the catchers' mitts as they caught those two, that was about 60 years ago. Gibson and Koufax must to have been topping out at 85 mph at least. Ok, fans of Trout and Strasburg... vote out of the Hall Cobb, Wagner, Cy Young, Walter, Christy, Alexander, and the like.... and then fill the damn hall up with mediocre modern ballplayers like Trout, Puckett, and Baines and the like... those would be players who'd struggle to hit Walter Johnson's 83 mph fastball. |
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In the current strikeout era there seems to be an epidemic of injuries requiring Tommy John operations. Could this be related to the proliferation of 100 mph fastballs currently? Any old timer with such an injury wouldn’t be throwing as fast or would have an abbreviated career. I’m of the opinion that the current era of “heat” is related to the increased incidence of elbow injuries.
As much as I like Ohtani, with two TJs under his belt, I think his future as a pitcher with the Dodgers may be wishful thinking.
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A few comments:
The footage is fantastic. I'm not even sure the people in 1924 would be able to comprehend that our national pastime is still being played 100 years later! Secondly, to the debate that is had constantly: we can only judge these men by how good they were to their peers. We cannot hop in a time machine and take Walter Johnson, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, from their time and plop them into today's game. They were the cream of the crop when they played, no questions asked. In 1924, modern weight training didn't exist, players traveled on sleeper cars and most if not all held jobs in the offseason. Most players played every game of the season, and pitchers almost always went a full 9 innings. I'd like to see any player today accomplish what they do now, under those circumstances! My point being, we can argue this until we're blue in the face. We're not gonna get anywhere. Just enjoy looking at where we were, and where we are now.
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BTW_ cool video-- thanks for the link.
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