Jackie Robinson/Willie Mays

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Two wonderful, all-time players. One is better liked than the other, I get that. I don't mean for this to sound morbid, but Willie's early cards are likely to receive a bump when he passes (and I hope that is a long, long time from now). Who is likely the better long term buy? I tend to think the answer is Robinson, but I am not totally sold on that.

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[Mark70Z]

I would think Robinson. I thought Mays a great player, but off the field not so great.

[G1911]

I would guess Robinson would be more 'card recession proof' than Mays. Mays is a series of great statistics, Robinson is the star feature of a popular narrative that will not fade away from memory as the generation that watched these players unfortunately dies off. Jackie will continue to be talked about by MLB frequently, mentioned in school curriculum's on the Civil Rights Era, and has his number 42 hanging among the retired greats in every stadium. If one cares about investing or selling, Jackie seems to be about as safe a bet as one could possibly make on steady values.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by G1911

... Robinson is the star feature of a popular narrative that will not fade away from memory as the generation that watched these players unfortunately dies off. Jackie will continue to be talked about by MLB frequently, mentioned in school curriculum's on the Civil Rights Era, and has his number 42 hanging among the retired greats in every stadium. If one cares about investing or selling, Jackie seems to be about as safe a bet as one could possibly make on steady values.

Agree completely.
Not even close. Jackie Robinson. I mean, it's not even a comparable thing. It wouldn't matter if Willie Mays had hit 800 homeruns and was elected "Greatest Dude Ever".
Jackie Robinson's social contribution will make him second only to Mickey Mantle and, perhaps, Babe Ruth, in investment potential.

[Phil68]

As I think about it...it's interesting that Mays is so far behind Mantle in terms of desirability. I understand post-seasons and exposure...Yankee mania, blonde hair, blue eyes. That would account for some difference. The difference, however, is astounding. Obviously, we're all thinking race.
I can't fathom another plausible reason for such an amazing disparity.
If Mays had broken the official color barrier--and not Robinson, I believe he'd be comparable to Mantle in terms of prices.

[Mark70Z]

Plausible reason (at least from my perspective) = he’s not very nice off the field. I wouldn’t collect any of his stuff myself just for that reason; doesn’t matter how good he was on the field.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Plausible reason (at least from my perspective) = he’s not very nice off the field. I wouldn’t collect any of his stuff myself just for that reason; doesn’t matter how good he was on the field.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but what, exactly, would be the issue(s)? When did you have your encounter with Willie Mays?

[egri]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Plausible reason (at least from my perspective) = he’s not very nice off the field. I wouldn’t collect any of his stuff myself just for that reason; doesn’t matter how good he was on the field.

I agree (to an extent; I had to collect Mays for my 1953 Topps project but probably wouldn’t have otherwise). I think Mays outliving Mantle has hurt his collectibility. I’ve heard stories that sometimes Mantle could be a jerk, but they are in the minority, and he hasn’t been a jerk to anyone since 1995. Mays was a jerk to somebody yesterday. Mays is chasing a ghost.

As for OP’s question, Robinson, for the reasons others have mentioned.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but what, exactly, would be the issue(s)? When did you have your encounter with Willie Mays?

Each and every time at shows. Sold off stuff collected of his years ago. Also, witnessing him treating others badly as well.

Now, I don’t have a problem with someone else collecting Mays. He was a great player and is still widely collected.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Good conversation, guys! Jackie Robinson is huge in baseball terms, and really transcends the game itself. Mays may have been the most gifted ever, but he somehow doesn't transcend the way Robinson does for most people. Add to that the surly nature Mays often projected, and it seems to diminish his popularity.

[samosa4u]

Mark,

Willie Mays' behavior off the field has nothing to do with the value (or future value) of his cards. Mantle behaved even worse than he did, but people forgave him.

I still think that having only one ring is what hurt Mays the most. It also didn't help that he went to San Francisco. If he had remained in New York and had won five championships, then his cards would definitely be more sought-after today.

I also agree with many of the reasons given here regarding Jackie being the better investment. He will definitely be discussed for a long, long time.

[Gr8Beldini]

"Who was the better player" usually does not drive price. Nor does a player passing away. When a player dies, there might be a little more demand initially, but everybody dies and ultimately that initial price bump will level off. What drives price, more than anything else is "iconic." There is no better example of this than Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente. There aren't 5 players in history that were better players than Hank Aaron, yet Roberto Clemente, an EXACT contempory, will sell at a higher price in almost any set. While Hank is respected for his greatness, Roberto is Revered. It is why Nolan Ryan cards sell for more money than Tom Seaver cards. It is why Bob Gibson cards sell for much more than Juan Marichal cards. Marichal was the better pitcher but not nearly as iconic as Gibson. It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend. Joe Morgan was a significantly better player than his teammate Pete Rose, but in almost any set, Rose's cards sell for more (usually much more). Joe Torre was a better player than Tony Conigliaro but who's cards are more in demand (thereby more expensive). Two teammates Jack Morris (HoFer) vs. Mark Fidrych (one year wonder). Which rookie card will sell for more money? Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines. The demand for Jackie's cards is driven by his status as a cultural icon, not because he was a very good baseball player.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

"Who was the better player" usually does not drive price. Nor does a player passing away. When a player dies, there might be a little more demand initially, but everybody dies and ultimately that initial price bump will level off. What drives price, more than anything else is "iconic." There is no better example of this than Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente. There aren't 5 players in history that were better players than Hank Aaron, yet Roberto Clemente, an EXACT contempory, will sell at a higher price in almost any set. While Hank is respected for his greatness, Roberto is Revered. It is why Nolan Ryan cards sell for more money than Tom Seaver cards. It is why Bob Gibson cards sell for much more than Juan Marichal cards. Marichal was the better pitcher but not nearly as iconic as Gibson. It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend. Joe Morgan was a significantly better player than his teammate Pete Rose, but in almost any set, Rose's cards sell for more (usually much more). Joe Torre was a better player than Tony Conigliaro but who's cards are more in demand (thereby more expensive). Two teammates Jack Morris (HoFer) vs. Mark Fidrych (one year wonder). Which rookie card will sell for more money? Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines. The demand for Jackie's cards is driven by his status as a cultural icon, not because he was a very good baseball player.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=277906

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Mark,

Willie Mays' behavior off the field has nothing to do with the value (or future value) of his cards.

I disagree.

[Volod]

What an historical difference three months made in 1947.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

" Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines.

This is nowhere near true. While Robinson's numbers alone obviously don't merit legendary status, he still had a career OPS of almost .900 and was a great second baseman. Raines hit with less pop and couldn't catch a cold in the outfield. He was obviously a much better base stealer, but that's it.

Also, Robinson's WAR per season is about the same as Mantle and Aaron. Yeah he didn't do it for as long, but he also missed most of his 20s. It's very debatable how iconic he is, but he was much better than any typical bottom tier HOFer

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Phil68

As I think about it...it's interesting that Mays is so far behind Mantle in terms of desirability. I understand post-seasons and exposure...Yankee mania, blonde hair, blue eyes. That would account for some difference. The difference, however, is astounding. Obviously, we're all thinking race.
I can't fathom another plausible reason for such an amazing disparity.
If Mays had broken the official color barrier--and not Robinson, I believe he'd be comparable to Mantle in terms of prices.

I don’t think it’s race. The big players from the 1950’s who sell far above what their statistics would indicate are Mantle, Robinson, and Clemente. If being white drove card values, Al Kaline, who has about the same career statistical value in the same time at the same position on a probably more popular team would outsell Clemente. Instead Clemente easily triples Kalines values in most releases.


If being a white blonde Yankee drove card values (and there is a price bump for being a Yankee or a Brooklyn Dodger), Whitey Ford would outsell the Jewish Koufax instead of being available for like a fourth of his price.


The mixed race Jeter and Griffey Jr. dominate values in the modern era hobby, even though neithers stats warrant their elevation far above all their contemporaries.


I’ve never met a collector who seeks out blondes, or even white players in general (there are a number of Jewish race-based collectors). I don’t think Mantle collectors are looking at photos of Mickey and Willie, and deciding they don’t like Mays’ skin, so they’ll bid double on Mickey.


Players with great stories sell for more, whether it’s Robinson persevering through injustice, Clemente’s humanitarian work and tragic death, or Mickey’s public struggles both internally and with injuries, drink and sin, a classic American archetype narrative, it raises interest in that player.


Another big factor is that having an iconic card increases value across the board. Griffey is certainly aided in his hobby love by the classic 1989 Upper Deck. The high number 52 Mantle has been a hobby classic since the 70’s and has played a heavy role in making Mantle king of the postwar era. If Mays had been the one in the 6th series, things might have been different.


Mays doesn’t have the narrative, has a reputation as a generally surly man, (Brooks Robinson doesn’t have the narrative either, but his reputation for accommodating fans and being a kind man surely has helped his card hobby), and played for a less popular team that was nowhere near as successful as Mantle’s clubs. It’s also not like Mays is undervalued, he’s right there as the second most expensive non-rookie card in many sets, usually competing with Robinson, Clemente, Ted Williams and Aaron. If hobbyists were racially motivated to buy cards of whites, I don’t think we’d have the majority of the most popular 50’s players in the hobby being black. Mantle, Koufax, Ted Williams, Aaron, Jackie, Mays, and Clemente are generally the most collected players of this period and bring the highest prices. The one set Paige appears in without the rookie factor, he also outsells every white except Mantle.

[brian1961]

Astute observations, G1911, and a truly excellent post. I have noted over the last four decades of the hobby that Willie Mays seldom failed to let a fan down, whereas former players Brooks Robinson, Mickey Mantle, Ernie Banks, Warren Spahn, and several others seldom failed to endear themselves FURTHER at card shows as autograph guests. As you expressed, their kindness, or at least civility, to their adoring fans helped their cards and other items appreciate in value. -- Brian Powell

[mq711]

Willie is the only player I truly PC; team and legacy being the primary reason. As far as race being an issue concerning value, look at the price of various team cards, especially late 50s when Mantle and Mays were both in NY. Talk about difference in price!

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Volod

What an historical difference three months made in 1947.

I've thought about this quite often. And Doby was in the AL, playing in parks and cities that Jackie never visited. So even though he was three months later, he still was plowing ground that Jackie had never seen. Not meant at all to diminish what Jackie did, but Larry was right there beside him.

The same could be said for Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. Neil happened to be the first one down the ladder (and not by happenstance), and those couple of minutes made all the difference in their legacies.

Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue.

Being first matters.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Phil68

As I think about it...it's interesting that Mays is so far behind Mantle in terms of desirability. I understand post-seasons and exposure...Yankee mania, blonde hair, blue eyes. That would account for some difference. The difference, however, is astounding. Obviously, we're all thinking race.

I actually think it has less to do with race than it does time and circumstance. When the boomers took the card hobby from an underground thing to mainstream in the late 1970’s / early 80’s - Mantle was their guy. From the getgo, the cards that generation found the most desirable were Mantle over everyone. This has to do with being a Yankee and constantly in the WS, yes. The exposure Mantle got in the 1950’s and early 60’s made him the most recognizable face in baseball, and that is what the people who took the card hobby to new heights had on their minds when they did it.




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[jchcollins]

Mays may be the greatest all-around position player who ever lived, but Jackie Robinson did something singular / unique in American history in addition to being a famous ball player. Starting perhaps 5 years ago, I noticed that Jackie cards on eBay with BIN’s all seemed to have ridiculous price tags. You might could negotiate a seller down on a midgrade or lower card, but Robinson always starts high. Then in particular, his early issues like 1948 Leaf and the 1949 and ‘50 Bowman cards really shot through the roof in value, even in lower grades. People aren’t soon going to forget Willie Mays by a long shot, but I think the historical uniqueness of Robinson will make him a slightly better investment for a long time to come.


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[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

I disagree.

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

[packs]

Agree it will always be Jackie. I'm sorry to all the Mays fans but I don't get the impression anyone really cares about him. Mike Trout is called the next Mickey Mantle, not the next Willie Mays. Even Jasson Dominguez is being compared to Mickey Mantle, not Willie Mays. There isn't a Willie Mays award. Being that Mays wasn't Robinson in a historical sense, it's only a matter of time before he fades into HOFer obscurity.

Some people might suggest race has something to do with this. But I offer personality instead. Hank Aaron is revered beyond reverence. Willie is a shut in nobody ever sees anywhere and it's probably because he's not invited.

[ALBB]

Wow,
I would think it would be very difficult to be a card collector..and refuse to collect any cards of Mays

I dont think Ive ever had a thought like that cross my mind - for ex- working on a 60 F set...but Cobb was a racist..so I dont want his card in my set , or Steve Carlton refused to sign for me...so that card is missing from my 71T set ??

[packs]

There's been a lot of revisionist history done lately about Cobb's actual life. If you do some research on him you'll find Ty Cobb's thoughts on African Americans in baseball:

"Certainly it is O.K. for them to play," he said, "I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.”

That quote is from 1952.

You'll also find that Ty Cobb established the Ty Cobb Educational Foundation which has been and still is a tremendous financial resource for African American students in Georgia.

[ALBB]

Your right

[robkas68]

I tend to go with the iconic argument. Yes, I’m sure race could be a small factor and his personality could be a small factor, but there are plenty players that suffer from those challenges. Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier, Clemente is the symbol of the Latino community and died tragically. Mantle was the best player on the most iconic team in professional sports. Mantle was great, but much like DiMaggio or Jeter, the Yankee factor magnified it.

Mays by almost any measure was one of the dozen greatest players of all time. He just didn’t have the headline. No “61” or “715”, only one championship, etc. Sort of gets overlooked like Musial.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by brian1961

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

Brian,

Thanks; glad someone else understands and is able to put it into words far better than I ever could.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I've thought about this quite often. And Doby was in the AL, playing in parks and cities that Jackie never visited. So even though he was three months later, he still was plowing ground that Jackie had never seen. Not meant at all to diminish what Jackie did, but Larry was right there beside him.

The same could be said for Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. Neil happened to be the first one down the ladder (and not by happenstance), and those couple of minutes made all the difference in their legacies.

Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue.

Being first matters.

I've also thought about it quite often, and the one factor that always stumps me is the NY aspect of it. Of course, it's entirely conjecture, but does anyone imagine that if Bill Veeck had brought Larry up at the same time Rickey elevated Jackie, their historical significance - not to mention their card values - would be equal today? Or do you think that if the Indians opened their season on a Tuesday and the Dodgers opened on the next day, it would be different today?

[JollyElm]

It certainly doesn't have the magnitude of the Jackie Robinson/Larry Doby story, but along with Armstrong/Aldrin, it reminds me of Ron Blomberg becoming the first designated hitter in MLB history (and his bat sent to Cooperstown). It was supposed to be Orlando Cepeda, but his game was rained out (I believe?), and the honor became Boomer's alone, making him the answer to a trivia question forevermore.

[Empty77]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

. . .Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue. . .

Disagree. Everyone knows the second one down was Buzz Lightyear.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I actually think it has less to do with race than it does time and circumstance. When the boomers took the card hobby from an underground thing to mainstream in the late 1970’s / early 80’s - Mantle was their guy. From the getgo, the cards that generation found the most desirable were Mantle over everyone. This has to do with being a Yankee and constantly in the WS, yes. The exposure Mantle got in the 1950’s and early 60’s made him the most recognizable face in baseball, and that is what the people who took the card hobby to new heights had on their minds when they did it.

All of this.

It also doesn't hurt that the guy had a top 6 or 8 lifetime position player postwar career of all time and was thought to hit 700 foot HRs. Despite having his knee ripped in half in his rookie season.

[cardsagain74]

I'm not convinced that the "likeability" factor really comes into play that much.

Look at guys like Dimaggio, Ted Williams, Aaron, even Bill Russell. Little positive to say about any of their personalities, but that hasn't really affected their place in history, how revered they are by fans (both past and present), or how much people want their collectibles.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

It certainly doesn't have the magnitude of the Jackie Robinson/Larry Doby story, but along with Armstrong/Aldrin, it reminds me of Ron Blomberg becoming the first designated hitter in MLB history (and his bat sent to Cooperstown). It was supposed to be Orlando Cepeda, but his game was rained out (I believe?), and the honor became Boomer's alone, making him the answer to a trivia question forevermore.

The Yankees played at the Red Sox that day, Blomberg was batting sixth for the Yankees and Cepeda was batting fifth for the Red Sox. The Yankees scored three runs in the top of the first inning so Blomberg was able to bat before Cepeda, who didn't come up until the bottom of the second.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Mays may be the greatest all-around position player who ever lived, but Jackie Robinson did something singular / unique in American history in addition to being a famous ball player. Starting perhaps 5 years ago, I noticed that Jackie cards on eBay with BIN’s all seemed to have ridiculous price tags. You might could negotiate a seller down on a midgrade or lower card, but Robinson always starts high. Then in particular, his early issues like 1948 Leaf and the 1949 and ‘50 Bowman cards really shot through the roof in value, even in lower grades. People aren’t soon going to forget Willie Mays by a long shot, but I think the historical uniqueness of Robinson will make him a slightly better investment for a long time to come.


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It was shortly after the movie 42 came out, 2013.

Also, willie has had another 25 years aftwr mantle to not please the autograph seekers

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

The Yankees played at the Red Sox that day, Blomberg was batting sixth for the Yankees and Cepeda was batting fifth for the Red Sox. The Yankees scored three runs in the top of the first inning so Blomberg was able to bat before Cepeda, who didn't come up until the bottom of the second.

Thanks for the clarification. I knew it was some sort of a fluke occurrence (those 3 runs in the top of the first), but couldn't quite remember what it was. Awesome.

[todeen]

I grew up in Billings, MT and Spokane, WA. I never saw a baseball autograph session of a HOF player in MT. The Rockies came on a caravan once. In Spokane, we had a card store that operated 3-4 years and invited HOF players, and the biggest name that came to town was Al Kaline. Great guy. Never have met Willie, Mantle died while I lived in Montana. I think of Mantle more often than Mays simply because of '61. When the Sosa and McGwire chase happened, Mantle's and Maris' name came up all the time. I decided to collect the 1961 Topps set for that simple reason. I didn't collect it because Mays was in the set.

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[MarcosCards]

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend.

Woah, this reference sent me on a Google search for information on Mr. Dalkowski. I thought I knew a lot about the 1963 set — but I didn’t know about this “iconic” card.

[tonyo]

As to the OP question, I don't typically follow pricing trends, but my initial gut feel is Jackie better value long term due to his place in American History, but then like the OP .....a few seconds later I think " I don't know about that"

*I think* Willie's cards are hanging in there above Jackie's now days despite his current apparent surly nature.

Personally, I've been a Mays-the-baseball-player fan since I started collecting and reading up on baseball history back in second grade. He does have an iconic well-known, magical moment in baseball ("The Catch"), He's part of a song that will likely last among baseball history clips (Willie, Mickey, and the Duke), he had a cool, friendly nick-name, I'm probably wrong on this one, but my perception all these years has been he was one of the first to combine big HR & big SB numbers and generally speaking he has good looking cards and photos. (61 topps not withstanding).

It's unfortunate to read how miserable he has become, and believe me if I had a similar encounter, my opinion of his cards would probably plummet as well.

But it's probably likely that it's a small percentage of collectors that know of his public-manner in retirement. I've read pretty often how the net54 community is a small percent of the actual collecting community, even though it seems like the entire collecting universe to me. Probably the same for autograph seekers.

I suspect it's possible that future collectors may hear of his rudeness at signings and attribute it to "grumpy old man" syndrome.

On the other hand, I always liked DiMaggio-the-player but read that Robert Cramer book about 5 years ago and came away with a distaste for him as a person. Still like his cards and images though.

I'm curious if there are books written about Mays that depict him as unlikeable off the field? or did anyone here have encounters with him in his playing days? Was he a jerk in his 20's ,30's and 40's?

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I actually think it has less to do with race than it does time and circumstance. When the boomers took the card hobby from an underground thing to mainstream in the late 1970’s / early 80’s - Mantle was their guy. From the getgo, the cards that generation found the most desirable were Mantle over everyone. This has to do with being a Yankee and constantly in the WS, yes. The exposure Mantle got in the 1950’s and early 60’s made him the most recognizable face in baseball, and that is what the people who took the card hobby to new heights had on their minds when they did it.

This may be a stupid question, but does the fact that Topps dumped pallets of the last series of 1952 Topps, which included Mantle's (sorta) rookie card, into the Hudson River have anything to do with it? The reflected glory of the '52 Mantle, if you will.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by brian1961

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

I wanted to clarify my on the surface outrageous example of refusing what would normally be a very desirable Willie Mays baseball card. I don't collect regular issue Topps baseball sets, and have not for over 50 years. As a tween and teen, when I was interested in collecting the entire 598 - 609 card Topps set, you better believe I wanted Willie Mays. Back then, I liked Willie. He wasn't my favorite player in say, 1967; my favorite player in those years was Ernie Banks. I lived in the suburbs of Chicago, and rooted for the Cubs and Sox. As a kid collecting Topps, it was always a thrill to get Willie Mays's card.

It wasn't until the mid-to-late 1980s, when I'd re-entered the adult hobby, that I began to have intense negative feelings towards Say Hey. I'd begun subscribing to SPORTS COLLECTORS DIGEST. At this time it was the largest and most significant newspaper / magazine in the hobby. Tons of ads, auctions, and superb feature articles on players of the past. Once in a blue moon, they ran a feature on my favorite kind of cards---post-war regional / food issues.

At this time, SCD ran a feature written by a free-lance photographer and his miserable experience trying to interview Willie Mays. Once Mays ascertained that the fellow was a free-lance writer, the meeting went deep south. Willie went out of his way to be rude, caustic, antagonistic, and thoroughly uncooperative. At this same time, he was polite and helpful to a regular employed beat reporter.

Being a some-time writer, I was bewildered and shocked at how Willie could be so willing to work with the beat reporter, but then verbally, emotionally, mentally, and psychologically criticize the free-lance writer.

Now, the lambasted writer did not tear into Willie Mays, and make pronouncements about his character, let alone race. Not at all.

He simply wrote his recollections and Willie's caustic responses to him (due to the live recorder he had going for the hoped for interview). He simply conveyed the sequence of events of his sad escapade, and Willie's words to him. The writer expressed his feelings of bewildered sadness and hurt, but again, did not tear into Willie as a man.

He didn't need to.

In the ensuing years, I began seeing occasional reports of the foul behavior of Mr. Mays on the autograph show circuit. A full 90% of the comments on Willie were negative. Willie Mays really "tried hard" to earn himself a nasty reputation on the show circuit, it seemed. Guys, gals, I know there are people who are rude, demanding autograph seekers. However, at the many shows Willie appeared, with the promoters charging what would be a day's wage or more for those paying to meet Say Hey and get his autograph, I'm rather certain the autograph seeker would be on his best behavior. Remember this, FOR MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, THEY ADORED WILLIE AS KIDS, TEENS, AND YOUNG ADULTS. HE WAS THEIR HERO, OR AT LEAST ONE OF THEIR HEROES.

Then, to have a surly Willie Mays treat them so disgracefully and shamefully, it is a wonder one them didn't ....... I better not say it. None of us would like to read it or actually do it.

After reading that feature in SCD, I wound up selling off most of my best Willie Mays cards. The only one I regretted parting with was my 1960 Topps. I rather like that issue and was working towards completing it in the mid-1970s. Besides, Willie looks great on his 1960 Topps. So, I guess I haven't tried to complete a set for over 30 years! As for the other cards, no, I have never missed them.

I now turn to the matter of whether the foul behavior of Willie Mays has impacted the values of his cards today.

I submit to youse guys and gals two glaring examples.

First, on April 14, 2019, esteemed LOVE OF THE GAME auctions offered a 1967 Coca-Cola premium of Willie Mays, graded no less than PSA 10 GEM MINT. This 1 of 1 rarity would normally be a prized piece in a Mays card collection. However, the expression of Willie on the card is most disappointing. I don't know what happened, of course, but it honestly looks as though the photographer told Willie to say "cheese", and instead he said "shit". The facial expressions of other significant players look terrific; I recall Clemente, Rose, Mantle, Banks, Billy Williams, Frank and Brooks Robinson, and Henry Aaron all look endearing. These beautiful cards would bring great joy to a recipient, especially one who'd drank Coke after Coke to collect the caps needed to redeem them for the set of 12 premium pictures of his local team. But Willie Mays, the biggest prize of the 12 Giants, wears a face that does look like sh**. Pity. OK, so back to LOTG's auction of the card. It got 11 bids, which amounted to only $1353, including the buyer's premium. I mean, the "dime" failed miserably to get a commensurate price.

Second, on April 6, 2019, the renown Memory Lane auction house hammered the most significant Willie Mays regional / food card that could hit the market: the 1954 Stahl-Meyer Franks Willie Mays in spectacular PSA 9 MINT condition. I shan't convey my feelings for the glorious post-war regional / food issues, and what I have given the hobby to prove it. I'll let the facts speak for themselves, and emphasize this was a major auction house grandstanding the piece. That amazing profound rarity garnered all of 23 bids, and sold for just $23,376. I don't remember what the PSA price guide gauged the value prior to the auction. I should think the value would have been ready to skyrocket, for the opportunity to attain the 1 of 1 MINT specimen comes very rarely, obviously. Alas, no, and PSA's price guide listing for the card shows the negative red numbers.

No more really needs to be said. I don't enjoy writing this; I'd rather remember him as a kid when I got Willie's 1962 Topps, or his 1966 Topps. Of course, I remember as a kid getting his 1961 Topps............

---Brian Powell

[Wihawk]

I think it's quite possible that those who minimize or discount May's post career behavior affecting his card values have never seen him at a signing or just got plain lucky to not see him as his typical rude, surly ass self.

[Volod]

Autograph hunters have to realize that there are among celebrities certain folks who just don't like the hobby and treat people who do with contempt. I recall hearing similar stories about Paul Newman, who once told famed signature collector Ralph Kiner to take a hike during a plane flight. There are quite a few others, and collectors should be aware of them and steer clear. Of course, there is no excuse for celebrities who take payment to appear at signings and then treat fans poorly, especially kids.

[JollyElm]

When I was a little kid, Willie Mays was my idol, mainly because I loved playing centerfield and he suddenly ended up on my hometown Mets. My dad would always regale us with tales of the good ole days when Say Hey was a NY Giant. Like so many other New Yorkers from his generation, after California stole our NL teams away, he refused to ever attend another baseball game. So with me (and a huge number of people), baseball was an incredible generational link between father and son. That's why Willie Mays will always remain that way in my heart, and I love grabbing his cards when I can. But as I grew up and kept hearing what an angry, unpleasant guy he was, I decided that I would never go see him in person at a signing event, and it has allowed me to keep my glorified, internal opinion of him intact.

[ALBB]

I too have always been a huge Mays fan

Ive heard and read the storys of his attitude at times during shows and events

Im glad I never met him, as it might lead to as crushing letdown

But with all the comments posted..I just dont see any drop in value of his stuff... obviously , the common 50s/60s stuff is always avail...but when it comes to some ultra rare Mays stuff - MeadowGold/ Briggs Meats/ and others, I think that stuff will always bring a big price ( supply/Demand/Avail)

[cardsagain74]

A lot of responses about Mays' attitude have to do with personal experiences (or with some obscure $10 k card), but it still seems to me like his hobby and baseball lore status haven't been affected by it much. There isn't a blanket everyday fan/media perception that "Mays is a surly jerk" in the way that people look at guys like Bonds or Cobb.

Plus (and I realize this is just one person's selective memory experience, but still)......when I got back into the hobby and started building a postwar vintage collection months ago, the main goal for some of its foundation was to get a different top tier HOFer for every year from '52 to '79. My focus for the cards from the 50s and 60s was around $30 to $500 ones, a range used by many collectors. Quickly learned that Mantle (big shock eh), Jackie Robinson, Mays, and, to a slightly lesser extent, Aaron seemed like the most popular and difficult to get the right card at the right price. But who was the toughest (and last card) to get the right deal that entire period? Mays.

When I finally landed a legit grade 5 '59 Mays for the very mediocre price of 55 bucks, it felt like Monty Hall had just awarded the big deal of the day.

So when it comes to the average collector and what they're looking for, the demand for Mays cards seemed like the furthest thing from a problem

[jgannon]

It's sad to hear how Willie has acted these card shows. I really haven't read anything much about his personal life. I know there was a biography written a few years back, although I don't know what it reveals about him, or if it is any good.

But what's interesting is juxtaposing the behavior mentioned above, with how Willie himself has described how he played, and his idea of baseball as being a kind of show business. He said he would try give the fans something different to remember every time they came to the ballpark. He famously used to wear his cap a little big so it would fall off when he ran the bases or after a fly ball. He was conscious of giving the fans a thrill.

And he truly did. And he was one of the greatest baseball players of all time. I'm completely sensitive to someone who idolized him coming to see him, and being treated rudely or poorly. What a painful experience that could be. But maybe there were reasons Willie felt bad about doing the shows. I don't know what his financial situation was or is. But maybe he needed the money. He took the job at a casino and didn't give it up when Kuhn suspended him from baseball. I'm just speculating. It's also possible, that maybe he just isn't the pleasant person we want him to be.

You know, if you analyzed every musician or composer's personal life, it's possible you might not like what you found out. Are you going to stop listening to a song or a piece of music by certain artists, because you didn't like certain things about them? Granted, we would like everyone to live up to our ideals. But there may be times, when even we fall short of our expectations. What it comes down to, is that all of these people were and are human beings. They did something amazingly well and became renowned for the thing they did. But underneath it all, they are only human.

Collecting may be a way to keep alive and continue living that feeling and magic you had as a kid with your favorite ballplayer(s) and/or team. And that's great. It really is. It keeps alive another time for us. Other people who were in our lives, but now are gone. Places we used to live, but have long ago left behind. Or a time and place that we only know about through history. I treasure all of this. The cards and memorabilia are a connection, which can bring all that to life. But while keeping a foot in that world, we also have to not lose sight of the other side of things, and not reduce those people we admired, into 2-dimensional cardboard (pun intended) characters.

One other thing: I was reading an autobiography by Felipe Alou. And to make a long story short (some of you might already be aware of this) there was some dissension on the early '60s Giants among some of the Latin ballplayers in reaction to some things that Alvin Dark was doing and saying. Some of the players were really ready to go off, but Mays, who was older and more experienced, convinced them to keep their cool and keep their eye on their careers. It would be interesting to hear Willie's teammates' opinions about him. There might already be a lot out there that I am just not familiar with. All of this talk about Mays has me thinking I'm going to seek out some books on him.

[ALBB]

that was well worded

the last book( couple years ago) written about Mays was informative

[packs]

Has anyone read the Hank Aaron book referenced in this article? Seems as though it's not just fans that didn't like Willie:

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2010/05/06...to-hank-aaron/