HOF Results

[paul]

What does everyone think of the Hall of Fame results -- Bud Fowler, Buck O'Neil, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, and Tony Oliva? Looks like I'll be paying big bucks (sorry for the pun) for an O'Neil card. I have a team issue picture of him with the Cubs from the 1960s, but I think I still want to have a card of him from Cuba.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by paul

What does everyone think of the Hall of Fame results -- Bud Fowler, Buck O'Neil, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, and Tony Oliva? Looks like I'll be paying big bucks (sorry for the pun) for an O'Neil card. I have a team issue picture of him with the Cubs from the 1960s, but I think I still want to have a card of him from Cuba.

All worthy additions in my opinion. Or certainly more worthy than some of the other people the veterans committee elected in years past. We've been past the point of a "small hall" for a while now.

O'Neil and Minoso should have been elected some time ago. O'Neil was instrumental to getting the Negro Leagues recognized, I wish he would've been granted admission in his lifetime, the same goes for Minnie.

[Natswin2019]

Originally Posted by paul

What does everyone think of the Hall of Fame results -- Bud Fowler, Buck O'Neil, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, and Tony Oliva? Looks like I'll be paying big bucks (sorry for the pun) for an O'Neil card. I have a team issue picture of him with the Cubs from the 1960s, but I think I still want to have a card of him from Cuba.

All of them are deserving and long overdue. Especially for Buck and Hodges.

[mrreality68]

All worthy candidates and glad they all got in.

Just many more deserving from the Negro League to get in. But with these committees not regrouping for a while the wait goes on for others

[BobC]

Great group!

Surprised the Golden Era Committee got so many players in though. Anyone thinking the people on that voting committee may have gotten together to ensure they got several deserving candidates in finally?

[Scocs]

Does anyone know if players who were not inducted from these older baseball committees today are still eligible in 2032 or are they now off the ballots?

[egri]

I'm surprised by how many were inducted; I had been expecting one or two. No complaints about who got in, I would've liked to see Billy Pierce get in as well though.

[JollyElm]

As a Mets' fan son of Brooklyn Dodger diehard parents, this really warms my heart. Their love for Gil Hodges knew no bounds, and baseball card collecting has always been a bridge between (usually) fathers and sons, so I love it!!!!!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by egri

I'm surprised by how many were inducted; I had been expecting one or two. No complaints about who got in, I would've liked to see Billy Pierce get in as well though.

Was surprised also. With 16 voters with 4 votes each, and needing 12 votes for election, that means at most the Golden Era Committee could end up electing 5 people. That they got 4 in makes me wonder if they didn't work together to get in as many past due, deserving candidates as possible.

[campyfan39]

Mostly happy for Gil. Looooong overdue.

[mainemule]

Wow, I am shocked 6 were elected. It seems John Donaldon and Dick Allen were the 2 that pundits were high on who were not elected. Donaldson's numbers are certainly hard to fully grasp since they include so many semi-pro games. Allen was one, one!! vote short. Crazy......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Was Kaat any better than Tommy John? I don't object to him but at the same time am surprised, I thought Minoso for sure, maybe Hodges, outside shot Oliva.

[bnorth]

This "card" was given out(SGA) when Tony got into the Twins HOF many many years ago. I got him to sign it a few years ago. Tony was very surprised to see the card and asked how I got it. When I told him I was there he got a huge smile and was a very nice gentleman.

[rhettyeakley]

Happy for those that got in. Most are well deserving.

Some real head scratchers for me to be honest. Not sure how Jim Kaat gets in but Tommy John doesn’t get considered. I’ll never understand the lack of respect given to Lefty O’Doul and his impact on baseball in the west & Japan. Also, how does Oliva get in but not Allen? I like Oliva a lot but always felt his chances were lower than Dick Allen.

[insidethewrapper]

Does this mean guys like Bill Madlock with 4 batting titles etc will someday be in the HOF ?

[JollyElm]

And now it is time for this:

230. Coming In from the Mold (also Grabbing the Raines)
When a long-retired player finally becomes a HOFer and you start digging through your old cardboard boxes in search of his cards.

See also: Vexaltation - being pissed that when you dig those cards out they are in awful shape because they’ve been rattling around in your commons/junk boxes all of these years.

See also: Mildewphoria - the delight in discovering you have a bunch of his rookie cards socked away.

See also: Epidemacclaim - the huge amount of overpriced cards suddenly appearing everywhere on eBay the moment the ballplayer is finally elected to The Hall.

See also: Prognostogainer - someone who speculated perfectly on the HOF vote and was able to cheaply load up on the player’s cards in advance.

See also: Windfault - spending a lot of money buying the rookie cards of a player you were sure was going to be enshrined this time, only to see him once again fall short.

[G1911]

The Golden Era is not bad. Minoso is, I think, long overdue and a clear hall of famer. Kaat, Oliva and Hodges are not bad choices, not great ones. They can reasonably be hall of famers without lowering the standard, and could reasonably not make it. The kind of guys this vote, after missing admittance for like 50 years, is made for. I'd probably pick Boyer over Kaat, but none of these are a bad choice. No Harold Baines garbage, no Lee Smith, no Jack Morris type pick. All reasonable.

However, it looks like collusion. 11/16 ballots were exactly the same, with a choice among 10 players who are all in the same 'close but not quite' boat (except, I think, Minoso who is extremely deserving). Really looks like there was some vote trading or something to align everything so we have several players elected.


The Pre-War ballot, frankly, I think has much to do with narratives. It's purpose was obviously to elect Negro Leaguers, with the recent declaration that they are all major leagues. This isn't a problem necessarily, most of the best players from that time period not in are from the Negro Leagues. But O'Neil and Fowler? O'Neil is getting in for being a great interview subject, I like him and his stories like everyone else but I don't think that's an appropriate reason. Character by itself is not enough. Fowler, I don't claim to be an expert on, but he's seems chosen as a first-of-something, not a great. They had better choices on this ballot to honor black players from this period, like Donaldson.

If I'm reading it right, Bill Dahlen got 0 votes though. Reynolds and O'Doul, the other traditional major league options, both did get multiple votes. Each of whom is obviously inferior as a player, and Reynolds even being there is downright ridiculous (25 WAR, less than 200 wins, why not Lopat if you want a good-for-awhile Yankee from the 50's?). O'Doul has claims to significance in Japan, which does not seem relevant to an American Hall of Fame that does not and never has honored success in Japan. I know he has fans here, but 3,600 at bats for a player elected for his batting is a little absurd. Dahlen was close to getting in in a previous vote. He got completely screwed if the results I have are correct.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Does this mean guys like Bill Madlock with 4 batting titles etc will someday be in the HOF ?

Madlock is very similar to Oliva. I'm not saying I would vote for him, but he has a legitimate argument and should merit genuine consideration.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not the strike season one, but weren't Madlock's other titles considered somewhat cheap given how many games he missed?

Anyhow Oliva was very popular. Madlock, not.

He won't get in ever IMO.

[cjedmonton]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Happy for those that got in. Most are well deserving.

Some real head scratchers for me to be honest. Not sure how Jim Kaat gets in but Tommy John doesn’t get considered. I’ll never understand the lack of respect given to Lefty O’Doul and his impact on baseball in the west & Japan. Also, how does Oliva get in but not Allen? I like Oliva a lot but always felt his chances were lower than Dick Allen.

John wasn’t considered on the Golden Days ballot because his greatest impact was between 1970-87. He will almost certainly be on the Modern Baseball ballot when that committee convenes in December 2023.

https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fam...ras-committees

FWIW, John had a really similar career as Kaat (minus all those Gold Gloves), so depending on the strength of that ballot, he may have a chance.

https://stathead.com/baseball/player...um=0&request=1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cjedmonton

John wasn’t considered on the Golden Days ballot because his greatest impact was between 1970-87. He will almost certainly be on the Modern Baseball ballot when that committee convenes in December 2023.

https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fam...ras-committees

FWIW, John had a really similar career as Kaat (minus all those Gold Gloves), so depending on the strength of that ballot, he may have a chance.

https://stathead.com/baseball/player...um=0&request=1

Interesting. Given that Kaat and John shared 20 or 21 seasons LOL, one would think of them as being in the same era.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by G1911

However, it looks like collusion. 11/16 ballots were exactly the same, with a choice among 10 players who are all in the same 'close but not quite' boat (except, I think, Minoso who is extremely deserving). Really looks like there was some vote trading or something to align everything so we have several players elected.

Rod Carew was one of the guys voting and I'm sure he was pushing hard for Oliva and Kaat. Mike Schmidt was also a Kaat teammate. I also think the fact Oliva and Kaat are both still alive (83 years old) played a factor. It's always a shame when players die before getting in, like Buck O'Neil.

[Jason]

No complaints here.

[triwak]

A Fowler card is gonna be TOUGH, lol!!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Rod Carew was one of the guys voting and I'm sure he was pushing hard for Oliva and Kaat. Mike Schmidt was also a Kaat teammate. I also think the fact Oliva and Kaat are both still alive (83 years old) played a factor. It's always a shame when players die before getting in, like Buck O'Neil.

I’m just thankful the lobbying didn’t lead to another Harold Baines level stupid choice. Kaat and Olivia are right on the border, it doesn’t lower the Hall to include them, at least.

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by G1911

The Golden Era is not bad. Minoso is, I think, long overdue and a clear hall of famer. Kaat, Oliva and Hodges are not bad choices, not great ones. They can reasonably be hall of famers without lowering the standard, and could reasonably not make it. The kind of guys this vote, after missing admittance for like 50 years, is made for. I'd probably pick Boyer over Kaat, but none of these are a bad choice. No Harold Baines garbage, no Lee Smith, no Jack Morris type pick. All reasonable.

However, it looks like collusion. 11/16 ballots were exactly the same, with a choice among 10 players who are all in the same 'close but not quite' boat (except, I think, Minoso who is extremely deserving). Really looks like there was some vote trading or something to align everything so we have several players el


The Pre-War ballot, frankly, I think has much to do with narratives. It's purpose was obviously to elect Negro Leaguers, with the recent declaration that they are all major leagues. This isn't a problem necessarily, most of the best players from that time period not in are from the Negro Leagues. But O'Neil and Fowler? O'Neil is getting in for being a great interview subject, I like him and his stories like everyone else but I don't think that's an appropriate reason. Character by itself is not enough. Fowler, I don't claim to be an expert on, but he's seems chosen as a first-of-something, not a great. They had better choices on this ballot to honor black players from this period, like Donaldson.

If I'm reading it right, Bill Dahlen got 0 votes though. Reynolds and O'Doul, the other traditional major league options, both did get multiple votes. Each of whom is obviously inferior as a player, and Reynolds even being there is downright ridiculous (25 WAR, less than 200 wins, why not Lopat if you want a good-for-awhile Yankee from the 50's?). O'Doul has claims to significance in Japan, which does not seem relevant to an American Hall of Fame that does not and never has honored success in Japan. I know he has fans here, but 3,600 at bats for a player elected for his batting is a little absurd. Dahlen was close to getting in in a previous vote. He got completely screwed if the results I have are correct.

Well said.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Happy for those that got in. Most are well deserving.

Some real head scratchers for me to be honest. Not sure how Jim Kaat gets in but Tommy John doesn’t get considered. I’ll never understand the lack of respect given to Lefty O’Doul and his impact on baseball in the west & Japan. Also, how does Oliva get in but not Allen? I like Oliva a lot but always felt his chances were lower than Dick Allen.

It's now inevitable that Tommy John gets in. His numbers are better than Kaat's numbers.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by G1911

Madlock is very similar to Oliva. I'm not saying I would vote for him, but he has a legitimate argument and should merit genuine consideration.

Oliva was a more impactful player.

[4k6]

Looks like for the Golden Days Era, all the voters got together and agreed to elect five players. Then one voter either miscast an extra vote for Minnie or just didn't get along with Dick Allen. Otherwise seems weird that ALL the votes would go to just five guys?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by tod41

Oliva was a more impactful player.

I’d nudge Oliva over him due to context and his excellence in a pitcher leaning era. But Madlock is very similar statistically. “Impactful” is a thing difficult to quantify if we’re referring to something out of statistics.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by 4k6

Looks like for the Golden Days Era, all the voters got together and agreed to elect five players. Then one voter either miscast an extra vote for Minnie or just didn't get along with Dick Allen. Otherwise seems weird that ALL the votes would go to just five guys?

This. Boyer is as good as those selected. Maris typically gets some votes even if I think he shouldn’t. This result does not appear to be “honest”.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

However, it looks like collusion. 11/16 ballots were exactly the same, with a choice among 10 players who are all in the same 'close but not quite' boat (except, I think, Minoso who is extremely deserving). Really looks like there was some vote trading or something to align everything so we have several players elected.

Exactly, I brought this up (twice) earlier in the thread already how this looked like voters got together to almost ensure they elected certain players, and Carew being one of the voters and teammate of two of the electees likely played a bigger part in all this than we'll ever truly know.

[jayshum]

Where did you see that so many ballots were identical? All I have been able to find online was the vote totals that were released, and other than the 4 elected and Allen, everyone else is just grouped into three or less votes.

Results of the Golden Days Era Ballot (12 votes needed for election): Minnie Miñoso (14 votes, 87.5%); Gil Hodges (12 votes, 75%); Jim Kaat (12 votes, 75%); Tony Oliva (12 votes, 75%); Dick Allen (11 votes, 68.8%); Ken Boyer, Roger Maris, Danny Murtaugh, Billy Pierce and Maury Wills each received three-or-fewer votes.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This "card" was given out(SGA) when Tony got into the Twins HOF many many years ago. I got him to sign it a few years ago. Tony was very surprised to see the card and asked how I got it. When I told him I was there he got a huge smile and was a very nice gentleman.

Very nice

Great display

[Hankphenom]

So very happy for Buck, a truly wonderful man. Wish he was around to enjoy it.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

As a Mets' fan son of Brooklyn Dodger diehard parents, this really warms my heart. Their love for Gil Hodges knew no bounds, and baseball card collecting has always been a bridge between (usually) fathers and sons, so I love it!!!!!

Like you, my father was a big Brooklyn Dodgers fan. He grew up in Brooklyn. I remember him talking about Gil Hodges. I have recollections that Gil lived in the neighbourhood.

Between his playing days and managing the Miracle Mets, his membership was long overdue. I'm glad he's been recognised by the Committee.

[earlywynnfan]

I agree with the majority of posts here: These choices don't water down the hall, and we probably all had a favorite to argue for in this group. (I thought Minoso deserved this a long time ago, and I always wanted Buck in.) I also agree that Tommy John should get ready to update his resume, he and Kaat are so similar.

How about some autographs?? Sorry to say, I don't have a Fowler. (Does anyone???)

[clydepepper]

I'm so happy that two of 'my three Cubans' got in!

This is a GREAT GROUP!- VERY WORTHY!!


It's great that Oliva & Kaat got in while still living.


It's a shame that Minnie and Gil weren't elected while they were still around.

Sad that Dick Allen fell one vote short...

GIL HODGES! Finally!

I love Buck O'Neil! What a great ambassador of the Game.

Lefty O'Doul was also a great ambassador for the Game...maybe next time.



I thought Ken Boyer and Billy Pierce were great players, but borderline HOF candidates.

I still want Luis Tiant, Jr. to be in.



.

[egri]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

How about some autographs?? Sorry to say, I don't have a Fowler. (Does anyone???)

The only one of the new inductees I have, obtained TTM in November 2014:

[IMG] [/IMG]

[Brian Van Horn]

Talk about rarely getting an autograph. Outside of Manny Sanguillen and in hockey Mario Lemieux and J Bob "Battleship" Kelly. Not for sale:

[cjedmonton]

Originally Posted by tod41

It's now inevitable that Tommy John gets in. His numbers are better than Kaat's numbers.

You’d think so, but here is the last Modern ballot:

Dwight Evans, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Marvin Miller, Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons and Lou Whitaker

Now that Miller and Simmons are in, they will be replaced with 2 other guys like Tiant, Steib, etc…

Of these guys, do you think John would be a top 4 pick on 12/16 ballots?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cjedmonton

You’d think so, but here is the last Modern ballot:

Dwight Evans, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Marvin Miller, Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons and Lou Whitaker

Now that Miller and Simmons are in, they will be replaced with 2 other guys like Tiant, Steib, etc…

Of these guys, do you think John would be a top 4 pick on 12/16 ballots?

Sitting here I would say we'll see John, Mattingly and Munson although I suppose that's not exactly the most diverse group in these sensitive times.

[Steve D]

I think Jim Kaat getting in, bodes well for both Tommy John and Luis Tiant.


Steve

[shagrotn77]

I'm very happy that Hodges got in. The honor was long overdue. Same with Minoso. I'm fine with Kaat and Oliva, but it's a shame that Dick Allen fell 1 vote short for the second consecutive time. If he's not a lock next time around, it's all a sham. Speaking of which...

How does the Early Baseball committee only elect 2 people??? That group only gets voted on every 10 years, and there is a backlog of deserving players, so put the max in for Pete's sake. I think John Donaldson and Bill Dahlen both got the shaft. I have to wonder if Dahlen will ever get in now. It's not looking good after this.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by cjedmonton

You’d think so, but here is the last Modern ballot:

Dwight Evans, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Marvin Miller, Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons and Lou Whitaker

Now that Miller and Simmons are in, they will be replaced with 2 other guys like Tiant, Steib, etc…

Of these guys, do you think John would be a top 4 pick on 12/16 ballots?

Evans (severely underrated), Tommy John, and Whitaker from that list. I’d add in Luis Tiant too.

[rhettyeakley]

Here is a tough to find early Buck O'Neil item.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cjedmonton

You’d think so, but here is the last Modern ballot:

Dwight Evans, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Marvin Miller, Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons and Lou Whitaker

Now that Miller and Simmons are in, they will be replaced with 2 other guys like Tiant, Steib, etc…

Of these guys, do you think John would be a top 4 pick on 12/16 ballots?

I'm not saying Whitaker needs to be in, but there's something wrong with Trammell making it and Whitaker getting only a couple more votes than I got.

[5-Tool Player]

Originally Posted by Natswin2019

All of them are deserving and long overdue. Especially for Buck and Hodges.

P+1

[ThomasL]

I think the snub here is Lefty O'Doul especially with O'Neil and Hodges getting in as I classify O'Doul in the same type of resume as those two guys (all-star player with great addition items in their life in baseball elevating them to a HOFer)...very happy about Hodge O'Neil and Minoso...ok with Fowler and Kaat and not sure about Oliva (bc I never have really done a deep dive on him)

[flpm08]

All modern selections were well deserved choices, i.e., Hodges, Minoso, kaat and Oliva. I cannot comment on Fowler or O'Neil since my knowledge of the Negro leagues is not that great. I think that Allen, who was so close, should have made it. He was a very good player.
Like several other persons who commented on the selections, I was extremely happy to see that Gil Hodges made the Hall. Growing up in New Jersey in the late 1940s and 1950s the Dodgers were a fixture on WOR Channel 9. The Boys of Summer now have five starters in the Hall of Fame , Reese, Robinson, Snider, Campy and Hodges. I am sure that Doris Kearns Goodwin who wrote that classic, Wait 'Till Next Year, is also happy.
flpm42