Gil Hodges

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think he's right on the border, I'd probably vote for him on a combination of his playing and managerial resume (I would probably do this for others too, fine players who were good managers but haven't made the hall because usually one or the other is considered), but he's a bottom tier one for me.

Although you can never know what the Hall of Fame voters might do, you can't really combine player and manager or player and executive roles...they are supposed to be considered independently. If you put them together, Bill White becomes and attractive candidate.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Although you can never know what the Hall of Fame voters might do, you can't really combine player and manager or player and executive roles...they are supposed to be considered independently. If you put them together, Bill White becomes and attractive candidate.

That's why I highlighted these are not usually considered in conjunction, but that I think it should be. Bill White has a fine argument on similar grounds, an excellent player with a significant contribution after his playing days.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

His stats look light to me. While I appreciate his service, it was far from a sure thing he would have spent much if any time with the Dodgers during those years. He's in the Don Mattingly/Jason Giambi/Will Clark/Norm Cash range, basically Tony Perez light. It's not an egregious oversight nor world it be a head scratching selection.

100% disagree with this.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

We only care about the HOF because election typically affects card value.

You have completely missed the point and your comment is so far off base. Have another drink.

Mike

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by jingram058

100% disagree with this.

You understand you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with stats.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

You understand you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with stats.

Tell me again about Harold Baines.

We agree to disagree.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

You understand you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with stats.

Why not let the metrics go for a minute? I ask you to read this, please:

https://www.mlb.com/news/gil-hodges-...of-summer-star

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Tell me again about Harold Baines.

We agree to disagree.

It's never a quality argument to point at the weakest HOF member, because there are dozens of players who are more deserving than the bottom guy.

Having said that, I think Hodges' playing stats + his character + his 1969 Miracle Mets makes him a solid candidate.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Tell me again about Harold Baines.

We agree to disagree.

So you're saying we should take the worst player in the hall fo fame (which Baines isn't, by the way) and let everyone better than that in?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

His stats look light to me. While I appreciate his service, it was far from a sure thing he would have spent much if any time with the Dodgers during those years. He's in the Don Mattingly/Jason Giambi/Will Clark/Norm Cash range, basically Tony Perez light. It's not an egregious oversight nor world it be a head scratching selection.

He ranks 40th under the JAWS formula for 1st basemen. I think he's getting a lot of love based on nostalgia, Dodgers, and popularity. There's a reason he hasn't made it after several decades of eligibility. Would it be the worst thing that's ever happened to the Hall, of course not.

[Snapolit1]

[QUOTE=bbcard1;2171264]So you're saying we should take the worst player in the hall fo fame (which Baines isn't, by the way) and let everyone better than that in?[/QUOTE


Barry Manilow deserves to be in the rock and roll hall of fame over Jimi Hendrix because he has 25 x more top 10 hits and sold more tickets to more shows.

James Dean? Hell, his career is nothing compared to Tom Cruise. Look at the numbers.

And don't get me started on Otis Redding. Hell, he's no Ed Sheeren to be sure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=Snapolit1;2171273]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

So you're saying we should take the worst player in the hall fo fame (which Baines isn't, by the way) and let everyone better than that in?[/QUOTE


Barry Manilow deserves to be in the rock and roll hall of fame over Jimi Hendrix because he has 25 x more top 10 hits and sold more tickets to more shows.

As sappy and as awful as it is, I've always loved Weekend in New England.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by G1911

Personally, I think Hodges is real borderline. Modern metrics, and comparisons to the league are not very friendly to him. A 120 OPS+ is not very impressive for a first baseman HOFer. WAR is not a good look. He never led the league in anything but games played and strikeouts. His most similar players are other guys who had a case, but didn't make the Hall. Not a single HOFer in his top 10.

I think he's right on the border, I'd probably vote for him on a combination of his playing and managerial resume (I would probably do this for others too, fine players who were good managers but haven't made the hall because usually one or the other is considered), but he's a bottom tier one for me.

I am, however, surprised he is not in the hall already. Beloved player, Miracle Mets manager, nice guy, huge fan base, Brooklyn Dodger from the 1950's. These things tend to push certain people in whose numbers by themselves aren't quite there, but it never has for Hodges.

If he was a 1B in Cincinnati or Washington, we wouldn't be having this talk.

+1, you said almost everything I was thinking, and better than I would have.

I think this thread is interesting is because the guys who we argue about the most are the "great human beings" guys: Hodges, Minoso, O'Neill, even Mel Harder and Cecil Travis (my choices.). Add in Dale Murphy, or Don Mattingly, who was the first yankee I couldn't hate.

[Snapolit1]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;2171276]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

As sappy and as awful as it is, I've always loved Weekend in New England.

LOL. Ok. Got me there. I always liked Looks Like We Made It.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=Snapolit1;2171280]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL. Ok. Got me there. I always liked Looks Like We Made It.

Somewhere Down the Road, another classic and not as sappy as some.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Peter, are you trying to turn yet another thread into something about music???

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, are you trying to turn yet another thread into something about music???

Steve started it!!

[BobC]

[QUOTE=Snapolit1;2171273]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

So you're saying we should take the worst player in the hall fo fame (which Baines isn't, by the way) and let everyone better than that in?[/QUOTE


Barry Manilow deserves to be in the rock and roll hall of fame over Jimi Hendrix because he has 25 x more top 10 hits and sold more tickets to more shows.

James Dean? Hell, his career is nothing compared to Tom Cruise. Look at the numbers.

And don't get me started on Otis Redding. Hell, he's no Ed Sheeren to be sure.

It's called the ROCK AND ROLL hall of fame! Nothing against Manilow, but that ain't R&R that he does. LOL

[Snowman]

I'm a huge Dodgers fan, but unfortunately, as far as stats go, he just wasn't good enough. It's really not even close either.

And as great of a guy as he was, unfortunately, character can't get you into the HOF, it can only keep you out of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ask yourself this: what's changed about his record during the FIFTY TWO years he's been eligible?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

What changed about the many guys he received more votes than during his original eligibility who are now in?

Rizzuto,
Schoendienst,
Doerr,
Kell,
Bob Lemon,
Ashburn,
Slaughter,
Mize,
Reese,
Newhouser,
Gordon,
Snider,
Fox,
Roberts,
Mathews etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to Baseball Reference these are the batters with the most similar stats. Anyone support Norm Cash?

Similar Batters
Norm Cash (930.3)
George Foster (926.4)
Tino Martinez (918.9)
Jack Clark (911.2)
Edwin Encarnacion (904.0)
Mark Teixeira (901.2)
Boog Powell (899.2)
Rocky Colavito (897.5)
Joe Adcock (895.3)
Lee May (892.9)

[Snapolit1]

I think with Gil no one is saying his offensive numbers alone are HOF worthy. They are exceptionally good but maybe not Hall worthy. But that you should look at his impact, his Dodger gravitas, his managerial success, i.e., the whole package of the man. And I think his premature death is another factor worthy of consideration.

It's not possible to argue that the only HOF criteria should be raw numbers. We can all debate the other factors, but stats can't be the be all and end all.

Are there any bridges in the United States named after Norm Cash or George Foster? Any elementary schools? I'm guessing no.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

If you like Jim Rice in the HOF you shouldn't mind Norm Cash

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If you like Jim Rice in the HOF you shouldn't mind Norm Cash

Agree the case for Rice was weak, although he did have 8 AS appearances and an MVP -- Cash 4 and none.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agree the case for Rice was weak, although he did have 8 AS appearances and an MVP -- Cash 4 and none.

But those aren't number based criteria those are opinion based. By the numbers Cash and Mantle were both better choices than Maris for MVP in 1961. All-Star is a popularity contest.

If you do care for those numbers Hodges had 8 all-stars and 3 Gold gloves (which only started near the end of his career)

[Seven]

I think Hodges resume, as a player, person and manager speak for itself and he should get into the Hall of Fame. The Hall isn't perfect, it's far from it. I think once the floodgates opened with the Veterans committee becoming a thing, the "Small Hall" Mentality went out the window.

Really the barometer for a player being Hall of Fame worthy, should be the his contributions to the game, and how well he performed. Some will also argue that a players character should be a part of that equation. I flip flop on this part, but I can't fault someone for not voting for a player who was a detestable person, just like I can't fault someone for voting for someone because he was a great man who contributed a great deal, both on and off the field.

With Hodges, I see a player that was robbed of three years because of the War, had he had those three years, I think statistically speaking his Hall of Fame case would have been much better around the first time he retired. I think him leading the Miracle Mets to their World Series title, adds to his resume as a baseball professional.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

But those aren't number based criterion those are opinion based. By the numbers Cash and Mantle were both better choices than Maris for MVP in 1961. All-Star is a popularity contest.

If you do care for those numbers Hodges had 8 all-stars and 3 Gold gloves (which only started near the end of his career)

I wasn't justifying Rice, only comparing Rice to Cash. I don't mind Hodges at all, I just don't think he's a good case on the numbers.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wasn't justifying Rice, only comparing Rice to Cash. I don't mind Hodges at all, I just don't think he's a good case on the numbers.

Put the numbers aside for a minute. If there ever was a case for why he never got in, surely it was his numbers as a player. But doesn't impact on the game, on the players, on the community make up for a .273 batting average? How did lesser-caliber players get in? I just hope he makes it this time. If he doesn't, in my mind, he likely never will.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Put the numbers aside for a minute. If there ever was a case for why he never got in, surely it was his numbers as a player. But doesn't impact on the game, on the players, on the community make up for a .273 batting average? How did lesser-caliber players get in? I just hope he makes it this time. If he doesn't, in my mind, he likely never will.

Well, he's being voted on as a player, so it seems to me his numbers as a player are first and foremost what matter. I'm not sure how one values those intangibles.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Seven

With Hodges, I see a player that was robbed of three years because of the War, had he had those three years, I think statistically speaking his Hall of Fame case would have been much better around the first time he retired.

There is another way the war hurt him; he started smoking while in the Marines, and that contributed to his heart attacks, including the fatal one.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by egri

There is another way the war hurt him; he started smoking while in the Marines, and that contributed to his heart attacks, including the fatal one.

Tobacco was one of the few things that wasn't rationed I believe, I'm sure many people thought it would also take the edge off while out in the field. Shame how young he was when he died.

[G1911]

Personally, I don’t see a good argument World War II shortened his playing career.

In 1943 he had 3 plate appearances in the majors.

He misses 1944-1946.

In 1947, he plays in 28 games and bats under .200 with a 44 OPS+

In 1948, he’s the starting first baseman and plays a full season. He hits .249 and has an OPS+ of 82, which is truly absolutely horrific for a starting first baseman.


I suppose we could say if he’d spent more time in the minors he would have developed faster, but this is making a lot of assumptions, all of them extremely generous to Hodges. WWII hurt a lot of guys careers, but Hodges isn’t a great case of them.

[ClementeFanOh]

"We only care about the HOF because election typically affects card value",
comment by Exhibitman.

Uh, no, "we" don't- I actually care that it be based on merit and don't give a
rip how it affects card value. Not in that "we" group at all.

Trent King

[Kutcher55]

He will get in soon I think. And a lot of New Yorkers and others will attend. It will be a popular election.

[Yoda]

The NYC press loved Gil for his performance on the field and his behavior off. He was the epitome of the gentleman/ballplayer, far different than, say, the relationship between Ted Williams and the Boston press. I vaguely recall that when Gil went hitless in the first 4 games of the WS of 1952 against the Yanks (of course), his parish priest called the congregation to pray that he would get a hit. And when he returned to manage the Mets, it was like the 2nd coming and the '69 WS was proof of Gil's divinity.
He definitely had an impact on baseball far greater than his mere stats.

[jingram058]

Results of the Early Days and Golden Era Days committees to be posted on MLB Channel with simulcast on mlb.com at 6pm today. Each committee comprised of 16 members. Anyone with 12 votes out of 16 (75%) will be enshrined with the 2022 inductee class. Each committee voted on 10 candidates.

[egri]

I'm glad he's in, and that his wife lived long enough to see it.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by egri

I'm glad he's in, and that his wife lived long enough to see it.

Amen!

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by egri

I'm glad he's in, and that his wife lived long enough to see it.

+1!!!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by egri

I'm glad he's in, and that his wife lived long enough to see it.

Glad for Oliva and Kaat too, and both of them alive to enjoy it. Great day for Minnesota baseball fans.

Lousy day for Minnesota football fans.

[JollyElm]

Yeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[G1911]

I'm not shocked Hodges and Minoso got in. I'm surprised they got so many people elected by committee this time though. The structure of the voting makes this very difficult to do.

[Wanaselja]

Fantastic class

[mrreality68]

This will be a big induction ceremony upcoming with these results

Bud Fowler and Buck O'Neil were elected from the Early Baseball Era Committee ballot of 10 candidates, while Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected from the 10 Golden Days Era Committee candidates

Congrats to all of them they are all well deserving

[ClementeFanOh]

Love the Hodges vote, YES! Amazed Bill Dahlen fell short once again.
2500 hits, 1200 RBI, 500+ stolen bases. Man, what's it take?

Trent King

[tod41]

Have to think this bodes well in the future for Keith Hernandez, Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by tod41

Have to think this bodes well in the future for Keith Hernandez, Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey.

Your mention of Hernandez is a good parallel to Hodges for me. Besides sharing first base, Hernandez was the rock of those great Mets teams, just as Hodges was to the great Brooklyn teams of the 50's.

[mainemule]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Glad for Oliva and Kaat too, and both of them alive to enjoy it. Great day for Minnesota baseball fans.

Lousy day for Minnesota football fans.

...fair trade off?? I'd say!

I strongly think Ortiz gets in on writers ballot and he started in MN as you know.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by mainemule

...fair trade off?? I'd say!

I strongly think Ortiz gets in on writers ballot and he started in MN as you know.

I can't think of a better DH since the position came into existence. Maybe it was just perception, but he seemed like maybe the most clutch hitter I ever saw.