Rare Backs, How Tough, How much $$$

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Posted By: Rand

hello, i am starting to pick up T206's with different backs (in modest grade) to start a "Back" collection. What will be the toughest backs to obtain (Not including Cobb/Cobb) and what price range should i be prepared to pay. (please keep in mind i am not looking for HOFers or high grade, just clean nice reverses to flip in the holders so the reverse shows 0n the front). i have been able to secure..Cycle, EPDG, Sov, Peid so far. thanks to all...in case anyone asks, i am sending the cards to SGC for crossover or reholder because i think with the black inserts it shows the cards beautifully.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

hi, you should just do a search on this topic...we always discuss values and scarcity levels of T206 rare backs...

also, check out T206museum.com for a checklist of all 40 back possibilties (including factories & series)...


extremely tuff:

broadleaf 460
drum
uzit

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Posted By: JimB

pretty tough:

lenox
carolina brights
red hindu

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Posted By: Scott Levy

I would agree with the assessment offered and would add the following rarities:

Old Mill Brown (extremely rare....possibly even rarer than the Ty Cobb back)
The interesting thing about the OM brown is that they tend to be either slimmer than the blacks or even hand cut. They are also not immediately distinguishable from the black in all instances, but some show very strongly. Nearly impossible to find and very costly as well.

Lenox Brown (very hard...although not as hard as OM brown). The Lenox Brown back is a color variation on the already quite scarce Lenox back. Somewhat possible to find but very costly.

Blank Back - not quite as scarce as you would think, but still a reasonable tough one. Be careful of 'skinned' backs. Many blank backs are hand cut. These typically start at around $300.

My opinion on the 'best deal' in tough backs is the piedmont factory 42. It's a minor variation to be sure. But only a small fraction of piedmont backs were printed at the factory #42 making it very tough to find (but not very costly on a relative basis). Its possible to pick up a type card for $100.

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Posted By: Dave F

Rand....

Out of the "tougher" backs I now have at this point a Lenox (black), Uzit, and a Drum.

From what I've seen myself in auction prices...as well as talking to the more knowledgable in this area....

A common Lenox in a SGC 40 just went yesterday on ebay for a tad over $600. I would think you could find a PSA 1 or SGC 10-20 for about $250.

A Uzit in a PSA 1 or SGC 10-20 I would think you could find for $600-700...maybe Michael can chime in here.

A Drum....I'm just going by my discussion with someone that knows better than I...but if you can find one for $1000...pick it up at that price.

I would also probably put a Red Hindu at about the same spot as a Lenox...IMO

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Posted By: Lee

Red Hindu the same price as black lenox?

PSA 3 Black lenox Common $600 (as of last night)
PSA 3 / SGC 40 Red Hindu Common $870-$900 (Ebay $870 and mine from the last Goodwin Auction $890)

Red Hindu is a good amount scarcer than Black Lenox and the price reflects it. I will buy Red Hindu 3's for around $600 all day long, but won't touch a lenox at that price.

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Posted By: Dave F

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320090524279

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Posted By: Turner Engle

Dave, you are right about that PSA 3 Mcgraw Hindu, but there is too much going on with that card (soiling, dirty, etc.)

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Posted By: Lee

This card is abnormal. It was way overgraded by PSA, and should have been in a PSA 1 holder. It had massive water damage or something that seeped into it and discolored it. A true PSA 3 McGraw Red Hindu would go for about $1200. Quit trying to site examples, because I have way more examples of rare back selling prices than you.

Like I said, the last SGC 40 COMMONS to sell on eBay went for $870 plus shipping, and mine was almost $900 in Goodwin

Even the last SGC 1.5 Common Tannehill went for about $450.

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Posted By: Dave F

Nice attitude Lee. Point is...there are plenty of Red Hindu's that go for exactly what Lenox backs go for. A PSA 1 Mcgraw went for about $225, a PSA 2 Mcgraw went for about $345 about seven months ago...yeah, you can pick up PSA 3's or SGC 40's for $900 if you want..but there are cheaper.

If you want to talk like that, might as well put a PSA 1 Drum at $1900....

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Posted By: Lee

Yeah, I have a nice attitude. Thanks a lot. I hate to see people come onto where and don't know what they are talking about. You can buy overgraded t206 Red Hindu McGraws in PSA 3 holders that should be in PSA 1 Holders, I don't really care about that.

What you are not understanding is that was Seven months ago. I would like to see you buy PSA 3 red hindu's that are actually 3's for under $800 in todays market, you can't do it. Great example siting old prices. That same 1 you are referring to sold in the clean sweep auction a few months ago for $400, and there were peices missing. PSA 1 and Sgc 1.5 McGraws have sold on eBay for $450 - $500 as much as over a year ago.

And yeah, I want to talk like that....Do you even have a red hindu? Didn't think so....

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Posted By: Dave F

Your funny Lee...and how easily you forget.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/376260/message/1169593230/Decided+to+keep+these+card+-+thanks%21

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Posted By: Lee

HAHAHAHAHA Dave, I remember you Jerk. I was mistaken once, I can be big enough to admit it, can YOU? Maybe you can read that post and get some knowledge from my mistake that you DON'T have.

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Posted By: Dave F

So...if red hindu's have basically doubled in price since you thought $450 was outrageous for a 1.5 at the beginning of the year..you better gobble them up!

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Posted By: Dave F

I admit it, you were mistaken...and a jerk.

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Posted By: Lee

Yeah, but you are missing the point in that post. That card sold for $250 on eBay about 7 or 8 months ago.....hmmmm, that was about the time you quoted all of your low prices.....and yes, they have gone up a lot recently. Why Don't you cite the most recent red hindu sale on eBay instead of all these out of date prices?

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Posted By: Lee

I said you are the Jerk *******, and you are mistaken, obviously you are not very big....

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Posted By: Lee

Obviously, you don't understand how much rare backs have gone up recently. That lenox SGC 40 you sited selling for $615 last night sold in the last huggins and scott auction for about $425....oh, no? This card jumped almost $200 in price, so red hindu looks to have done the same!

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Posted By: Dave F

Then like I said...they've doubled in prices in six months according to you. Buy all of them if they are going up like that...they will be passing Broadleaf 460's soon.

Fact is...you can buy them at $600-650 for a 3 or 40..I've been offered that.

Looks to me like when your buying they should be cheap...now that you have one or two god forbid they aren't worth what you say.

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Posted By: Dave F

Obviously your having problems understanding.

I said you can find them for $600-650...I didn't say you'd find most of them for that...wow.

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Posted By: Lee

Ha, yeah right, maybe you were offered those prices about a half a year ago, where are all your prices coming from. I have bought 1 of the last SGC 40 / PSA 3 commons offered, so 2 other people must not have thoought it too crazy to pay $800-$900 for a red hindu. And Like I have been telling you, they have gone UP, way up.

I think you have your head so far up your ass, you don't know what's going on. How long have you been doing rare backs now? a few weeks? What are you going to sell off and jump to collecting next?

Tell me where you can find them for $600-$650, I will be there and 10 other guys probably will be with cash in the morning.

No problem understanding *******

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Posted By: Dave F

Lee...I wouldn't even bother telling you where you could find a pile of dog**** for $600.

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Posted By: Lee

I think you are a pile of dog**** Dave

I wasn't trying to get an answer out you you you arrogant piece of trash. The place you can get a SGC 40 / PSA 3 red hindu for $600-$650 today probably doesn't exist!

Dave has shown no solid proof of where he can get a PSA 3 Red Hindu for $600 today, should we believe him? I think not.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

There could be kids or worse yet, Collectors reading this.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Will be held next week.

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Posted By: leon

Lee won't be playing with us anymore for a while. Please don't comment towards him. For at least the time being he won't be able to respond. I will chat with him off line and if he can get his attitude straight will join us again. If not then he won't....thanks....moderator dude

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Posted By: pat

note to self--- dont ever get into it with asphaltman76. he is on the ball.

some funny stuff.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

These Spec - Flippers are a FUN read...............

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Posted By: Eric

I got my first Red Hindu about 3 weeks ago. I haven't seen to many for sale since I've been looking. It was a PSA 1 and I paid $500 for it, which I didn't think was too bad. I'm just glad to have one.

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Posted By: leon

Dave and I and "Lee" and I have had some chats off line. Everybody gave a group hug, sang Kumbaya, and all is well. One big happy family again... This really is supposed to be relaxing so lets try to remember that (as we set our snipe for that Red Hindu we just have to have !!) .....take care....

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Posted By: MVSNYC

wow, i went to Brooklyn to have dinner with Barry S. & Joe D. and look what i missed!?

just for the record, i have sold Lee a ton of rare backs and spoken to Dave several times, they are both good guys and seemed to have gotten caught up in a dumb feud...glad you guys ironed it out...

now i can give you my opinions...

i have been collecting T206 rare backs for 15 years, they have slowly and steadily increased in value over the years. it seems that we hit a time now when everything has blown up...

approximate prices for commons (+/-)

lenox:

1 $350
2 $500
3 $650

red hindu:

1 $500
2 $650
3 $800

once you move into uzits & drums, the value structure window increases...

uzit:

1 600
2 900
3 1200-1400

drum:

1 1100-1300
2 2000
3 3000?


p.s. the Devore PSA 1, pictured above, used to be mine, i got it last year for $500, then traded it for about $500 (in trade value), then it looks like the gentleman just sold it for $500...

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Posted By: Eric

It's funny how often these change hands....and now I'm the proud owner. Glad to see it has retained it's value for the last year.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Michael- you didn't miss anything. The pulled pig sandwich was better than watching this fight...and you got to see a nice Red Hindu anyway!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

true barry...plus i got to walk the beautiful blocks of carroll gardens, such an amazing area...


eric- jay wolt coined a classic phrase:

"we don't own these cards, we merely hold onto them for awhile"...

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Posted By: Eric

Michael,

That saying is so true. I never really thought of it that way, but it is.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Cobble Hill, not Carroll Gardens. That's one neighborhood over

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Posted By: MVSNYC

barry, my bad...it is early for me. i love the brownstones & treelined streets

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I LUV that...........

Let's make that the Speculator - Flippers Credo...


This message has been brought to you by the readers of The Wall Street Journal......

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Posted By: Josh

Michael,
So true. That Jay Wolt is one wise fellow.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

joe- i can assure you that jay wolt is NOT a "flipper", nor am i for that matter...he is probably the most knowledgeable collector i know. the fact of that matter is that as we (as collectors) spend many years in this hobby, a lot cards change hands, we upgrade, we trade, we buy, we sell...each card has many many owners during its lifetime...

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Posted By: nbrazil

man, people can get really passionate about those red hindus and black lenoxs!

i dont dabble too much in back scarcity...but i can tell you by experience that those uzit backs are tough SOBs.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Sold for $4,920 including buyers premium at Huggins and Clark collection in 2006. Since then the Red Hindu and the Broad Leaf 460's seem to have increased - not sure about the others. The set includes

SGC Authentic BL460 considered "over sized"
SGC 10 Brown Back Lenox
SGC 10 Drum 350
SGC 20 Uzit
SGC 10 Red Hindu Magee not mispelled

Just for some of those in the set. It doesn't have the Cobb or other 3 impossible to get variations. Its a nice set though. I'm hoping it improves in quality over time.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

WOW, that is a steal for all of those...

IMO, just the ones you mentioned above alone are worth at least $5000...

$1750 SGC Authentic BL460
$1000 SGC 10 Brown Back Lenox
$1250 SGC 10 Drum 350
$600 SGC 20 Uzit
$500 SGC 10 Red Hindu

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Posted By: Jim Dale

I think you are pretty close on all those; but that "beater" of a BL460 in the last Sloate auction went for more then $2200 I think. I shouldn't begrudge that card so much just because I didn't care for its appearence. Hopefully someone is quite happy with it. There were some nice backs in that last auction.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

jim- my first gut reaction was $2000+ on the BL 460...i forgot about barry sloate's BL 460...

so let's safely say $2000-2250 for a low grade example

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Posted By: barrysloate

Mine was a HOFer, albeit a minor one in Vic Willis, so I guess that factored in a bit.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i think such a minor HOFer has a little effect on such an ultra rare back...

if that vic willis (in that condition) had a regular back, it would have sold for $50 (IMO), so the bulk of the sales price was the BL 460...

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Posted By: Jim Dale

BTW isn't there is a Cobb with a Cobb background coming up....that could feasibly create a 37 card set though I understand many don't view the Cobb as one of the backs of the T206 set? I don't know nearly enough about these yet to chime in on it....just a thought.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

jim, the cobb/cobb is already recognized as the 16th T206 brand. you might want to check out T206museum.com for a full list of backs in scarcity order (40)...

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Posted By: Jim Dale

don't some collectors dispute this about the Cobb back card? I am only asking because I remember a thread on the subject some time back when the set above ( I reference ) came our way?