National pricing

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Some prices are coming down but it is mot consistent and sometimes the next auction the prices look like they are going back up depending the bidders and card.
Right now it might seem a little soft for some but is that because of summers auction fatigue? Every summer there seems to be a ton of auctions at the same time plus Nationals and there is only so much money to go around for all those cards. I am finding that as I bid on cards another auction opens with cards that I want more than what I am currently bidding on(wish I could get them all) so I stop bidding on that card or I am not bidding at all until I see what is coming in the next auction so I do not miss out.

Related to eBay I find that many people put their collection on eBay just for viewing and not really interested in selling but just a place to show off so they put prices that no one would want to pay. I have seen many cards on their for years and years and literally seen them not only not sell but they raise the price

It is not just eBay. Check out the auction section here. We have a guy that starts stuff off at prices WAY higher than eBay BIN listings that rearely if ever sell. I am waiting for hm to list a half bottle of Crisco for $12 plus shipping and say it is below eBay comps.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I know during the amazing run up junk era was selling like crazy. Stuff I couldn't give away was suddenly selling like crazy. Now it has really slowed down. Not back to can't give it away but nothing like big run up.

I think that's a good assessment of most of the market..."higher than 2019 but lower than 2020-21".

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I just want to say, unless you are looking for something specific, saying you can't find items at good prices seems insane. I got to walk around for about an hour after I set up yesterday and I could've spent my budget 5 times over just on things I could flip immediately.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by glchen

Here's my recent Gehrig pickup that I paid out the wazoo for.

Love it.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Ricky

I don’t see a Richard M on the dealer list.

He is most likely set up with a Scott B and Jay M most likely will be around to

[Oscar_Stanage]

I picked a few cards at good prices

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Steve_NY

As an exhibitor, I never expect to get 100% of my asking price for most items. I am even negotiable on the rarest of the rare.

I tend to sell at 85% to 90% of my asking price, and this year I am showcasing ten showcases or more (all locked) of the common to the rare. But I am also focusing on significantly rarer items that could feasibly sell in the $10,000 to $100,000 range or more.

Some of those items I am not that negotiable but it depends on whether I have a good show or not. You never know.

I have not experinced this decline in prices that the rest of the market keeps talking about. Well maybe in non sports cards and sets. I expect to have a good show and if not, I will curb my buying during the rest of 2022 and into 2023.

Steve Sabow
DynamicTwo@aol.com
914-522-3853

Booth 1100 6 booths in the main entrance

Steve, how are sales at the National?

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I just want to say, unless you are looking for something specific, saying you can't find items at good prices seems insane. I got to walk around for about an hour after I set up yesterday and I could've spent my budget 5 times over just on things I could flip immediately.

I guess it depends on what you were looking for. When items were priced in cases at 2X what the SAME item closed for in last weeks Heritage auction - its not even worth inquiring. It was like that on just about every 1954 Hank Aaron on the show floor. I walked in with the intention of buying one in a 3/4 range. I walked out just saying I'll hit one up online for a thousand dollars cheaper.

I came close to pulling a trigger on a PSA 3.5 at $3900. But the dealer wouldn't budge. An SGC 3 closed in Heritage a week ago for $2300 and a PSA 3 closed last week for $2300. The PSA 3.5 was about what you'd expect for a 3 range but had a decent sized stain in the top corner.

The dealer was actually insulted I asked for a better price. He said "Its the cheapest one in town. I'm shocked it hasn't sold yet"

LOL

Edit to add: I didn't even bother mentioning the PSA 4s in cases all over for $6000 etc. I just walked by those.

[insidethewrapper]

How much are some of these guys carrying around with them in cash ? I can't imagine going to the bank and asking for $100k + in cash .

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

How much are some of these guys carrying around with them in cash ? I can't imagine going to the bank and asking for $100k + in cash .

There were people carrying more than that and others were carrying cards that were very high end and showing them to people trying to sell it to dealers or other buyers. They were also trying to trade.

Some of the dealers had actual huge safes (approx 6 foot tall) and as they transacted they put the money in them for safe keeping.

There were a lot of cards over 100k and a lot more there for sale.

So carrying $100k in cash would not get you many of high end Mantles I saw or other cards that were $350k or more

Many dealers took check only if you had someone that could vouch for you that they knew and were comfortable with and some did PayPal FF but Cash is as king and many would not look at you if you did not have cash

[Johnny630]

I’ve never seen more hundred dollars being counted by dealers before in all my years of going to the national. People were spending everywhere. Recession, that’s comical to me, sure as hell is not in the card market.

[insidethewrapper]

I'm sure these dealers are paying taxes on all this cash !

Also, been watching on YouTube transactions with minors ( under 18) selling and trading cards for thousands of dollars ( are these transactions legal and binding).

[uyu906]

Every dealer I spoke to said they were having a great show on Thursday and Friday at the National. The crowds were crazy both days, but I would estimate that the crowd on Thursday was larger than Friday's. I thought most dealers had their prices for cards from the 1940's to 1970s price generally at retail. Although the prime Rookie cards of those years were listed higher. I did find that most dealers were willing to accept less than their original asking price if you asked politely and did not ridicule their original prices. Dealers were even willing to move off their asking prices for Mantles. I got a high grade 1968 Mantle I needed for my set by asking what the dealer's best price was and he knocked 15% off what I thought was a good market price to begin with. My favorite "pricing" incidents were watching how dealers responded to people who argued with them that their prices were unreasonable! Most of the dealers I saw dealing with this confrontation tried to explain calmly at how they valued their cards. I only saw one exchange where the potential buyer swore at a dealer because he thought the dealer should have taken his offer. But, there were a lot of people arguing rather than haggling over prices. First time I had noticed this at a show. Probably not that unusual nowadays, but somehow I had not noticed before. Many, Many teenage kids and younger, almost all collecting modern shiny stuff. I also noticed a pattern that people of Asian heritage seemed to be overwhelmingly interested in recent modern card dealers tables. Just an observation that was hard to miss.

[bigfanNY]

I had the pleasure of meeting SB1 at his table and it had a wonderful group of cards. A diverse group of 19th century cards that was easily the best table of items for sale at the show. I had my grandson who had me hunting down pokemon cards for his collection so I did not have much time to say hello to many old friends but we had a great time.
I got to show 1230 on Friday and was nervous about parking but got a great spot. Got 1 autograph that took up alot of our time. But I was very happy to find a ton of fun card products and activities for my grandson. Panini kid case lots of promos and swag to break up the time. I was happily surprised by how many more young folks (with cash to spend) were at this national vs 2016 last time national was here in AC. A large number of corporate booths pushing Card pricing data packages. I am 100% that that will thin out quite a bit by the next time national is back here in NJ..

[Seven]

There were definitely deals to be had, if you looked in the right places. I found some 52 Topps commons for 4-7 dollars a piece, granted they were in rougher condition, but that's still hard to find nowadays, with the popularity of the set.

I was able to secure two Mantles for very fair prices, especially the 67 that I picked up today, in a PSA 5. It took a lot of searching, and some haggling but patience was definitely key. Were there some booths that were overpriced in my opinion? Absolutely. But there's definitely some wiggle room if you go about things the right way.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Love it.

Thanks, Justin!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by uyu906

My favorite "pricing" incidents were watching how dealers responded to people who argued with them that their prices were unreasonable! Most of the dealers I saw dealing with this confrontation tried to explain calmly at how they valued their cards. I only saw one exchange where the potential buyer swore at a dealer because he thought the dealer should have taken his offer. But, there were a lot of people arguing rather than haggling over prices. First time I had noticed this at a show. Probably not that unusual nowadays, but somehow I had not noticed before. Many, Many teenage kids and younger, almost all collecting modern shiny stuff.

Great report, thanks! I'm guessing there's some correlation between the actual arguing over prices, as opposed to haggling or negotiating, and the influx of younger collectors/flippers, which is good news otherwise. Those who have been around for awhile learn there's a right way and a wrong way to try to get a price down, and which side ALWAYS wins when the discussion turns ugly.

[uyu906]

Hank,

You are right. The people I saw/heard arguing over dealer pricing were all younger collectors, under 40 years old. It was quite interesting hearing them tell the dealers why their asking prices were "way out of line."
Those younger people apparently never heard the adage that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. By the way, I did not see anyone who was arguing with a dealer about their prices actually succeed in making a deal.
Maybe if they keep having those experiences they will learn how to haggle calmly with being offensive.

Rich

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Great report, thanks! I'm guessing there's some correlation between the actual arguing over prices, as opposed to haggling or negotiating, and the influx of younger collectors/flippers, which is good news otherwise. Those who have been around for awhile learn there's a right way and a wrong way to try to get a price down, and which side ALWAYS wins when the discussion turns ugly.

[insidethewrapper]

When I was the age of some of these "collectors" I borrowed a quarter from my dad to bike to the local party store to buy a few packs, now these kids are holding handfuls of 100 dollar bills !

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by uyu906

Hank,

You are right. The people I saw/heard arguing over dealer pricing were all younger collectors, under 40 years old. It was quite interesting hearing them tell the dealers why their asking prices were "way out of line."
Those younger people apparently never heard the adage that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. By the way, I did not see anyone who was arguing with a dealer about their prices actually succeed in making a deal.
Maybe if they keep having those experiences they will learn how to haggle calmly with being offensive.

Rich

Rich it’s the internet social media transaction behavior, most are keyboard warriors. They talk massive Crap, they bully people on social media into lowering their prices. Usually never works in person with seasoned dealers.

[uyu906]

Johnny,

You are probably right. It definitely did seem to have some element of bullying involved with the way they were talking to the dealer. The one particular dealer in mind looked to be in his 60's. I do not think he was terribly intimidated by the youngster who was yelling at him that he had unreasonable prices. In fact the dealer's patience was more than I would have had with the guy. I would have waved him away once he started yelling.

Rich

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by uyu906

Johnny,

You are probably right. It did seem to have some element of bullying involved with the way they were talking to the dealer. The one particular dealer in mind looked to be in his 60's. I do not think he was terribly intimidated by the youngster who was yelling at him that he had unreasonable prices. In fact the dealer's patience was more than I would have had with the guy. I would have waved him away once he started yelling.

Rich

I hope people chill out and are humble themselves, it’s only cards. If you don’t like the dealers price there are only about 500 more tables at the show.

[Snapolit1]

I just assumed everything could be gotten with a 10%-20% discount from marked price
and did minor haggling with that window. Respectful of dealer and that was not doable it was not doable. Zero reason to lecture or scream at someone.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I follow Gehrig cards to what some would say it a rather obsessive degree. It's like 95% of my collection. Prices have softened. In some cases rather significantly. Here's one rather striking example.

Heritage just sold a 1925 Gehrig Exhibits 3(MK) for $75,000
LOTG sold a 1925 Gehrig 3(MK) Exhibits in March 2021 for $160,000

Just like the stock market . . . not every stock moves in tandem.

ZERO comparison between those 2 cards. For accuracy, the “all in” pricing was $87K vs. $192K. The difference? The $87K example had obtrusive writing on the verso - a blatant MK version. The $192K example’s MK was virtually invisible on the verso - could not even see it unless you used ultra-heavy magnification. The bidders for the LOTG 3-MK treated it as a virtually clean PSA 3.

[uyu906]

On the cards I was looking at 1940s-early 1970s, I found that most dealers would take offers of 10-15% off asking prices at the National.

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I just assumed everything could be gotten with a 10%-20% discount from marked price
and did minor haggling with that window. Respectful of dealer and that was not doable it was not doable. Zero reason to lecture or scream at someone.

[Yoda]

The only real right a dealer has is to price his cards as he sees fit. It is the way our capitalistic system works. Bad behavior is not the way to score deals.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by uyu906

On the cards I was looking at 1940s-early 1970s, I found that most dealers would take offers of 10-15% of asking prices at the National.

And I presume you’re missing an “f” here?

[uyu906]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

And I presume you’re missing an “f” here?

Yes

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I follow Gehrig cards to what some would say it a rather obsessive degree. It's like 95% of my collection. Prices have softened. In some cases rather significantly. Here's one rather striking example.

Heritage just sold a 1925 Gehrig Exhibits 3(MK) for $75,000
LOTG sold a 1925 Gehrig 3(MK) Exhibits in March 2021 for $160,000

Just like the stock market . . . not every stock moves in tandem.

I would discard all data points from Feb and Mar 2021 when making observations about the current state of the market. Those two months had extreme outliers in the data. The market artificially spiked temporarily and then immediately crashed after.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I just assumed everything could be gotten with a 10%-20% discount from marked price and did minor haggling with that window. Respectful of dealer and that was not doable it was not doable. Zero reason to lecture or scream at someone.

+1. I believe most dealers build 20%, give or take, into their prices for most items, and expect that negotiations will end up at that level. I did, anyway, and was always kind of floored when someone would say, "I'll take it," right off the bat. I figured they were new to the hobby or just shy about wheeling and dealing and willing to pay a premium to avoid it. I didn't like inflating my prices this way, I'd much rather have put my bottom line price on everything, but quickly learned how the game was expected to be played. As a buyer, I would never offer more than a 20% discount as to not offend, although on occasion, like at the end of the show, a bigger cut would be offered by the dealer in response to my standard question, "What's your very best on this?"

[Jersey City Giants]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I just assumed everything could be gotten with a 10%-20% discount from marked price
and did minor haggling with that window. Respectful of dealer and that was not doable it was not doable. Zero reason to lecture or scream at someone.

I purchased two items (a really nice PSA 4 Matty White cap) and a game worn 1966 Syracuse Chiefs jersey. Both were had between 10%-25% of asking. But asking was high. I felt I paid up for the jersey but got the Matty at a very fair price. Unfortunately there were a few T206 PSA 4 commons I needed but could not get close to reasonable level with $250-$300 asking prices (non rare back mind you).