Oldest black baseball player card?

[Stetson_1883]

Mainstream card?

Just curious.

[triwak]

There are plenty of earlier items - particularly team postcards - featuring Negro League players, but here's a few "mainstream" cards from my HOF collection, of Cuban tobacco cards from the early 1920s:

[canjond]

1910 Punch?

[Kenny Cole]

Cabanas are a year earlier than Punch. They have Hill and Petway. That is the first true "set" of baseball cards from Cuba that I am aware of.

[triwak]

Oh heck yes!! Totally forgot about Cabanas and Punch. Perhaps, because I don't own any, lol!

[clydepepper]

Speaking of Cuban (and Venezuelan) cards, I have always shied away from them because I was concerned with the card stock.

However, since I have never even seen one in person, let alone own one, I'm still not positive that is an issue.

Could any one give me the skinny on that?



.

[Fred]

1916 Claxton Zeenut.... that's a mainstream card set but with only one black player.

[Fred]

1916 Claxton Zeenut.... that's a mainstream card set but with only one black player. Then there's the N172 with Treadway (who was said to have been black or part black).

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Speaking of Cuban (and Venezuelan) cards, I have always shied away from them because I was concerned with the card stock.

However, since I have never even seen one in person, let alone own one, I'm still not positive that is an issue.

Could any one give me the skinny on that?



.

Except for some of the 1940s issues, such as Caramelo Deportivo and Almanaque Deportivo, which are basically printed on newspaper stock, the stock is generally not an issue for Cuban cards. The bigger issue overall is back damage from being glued in albums and bug holes. The Puerto Rican cards are not an issue as best as I can tell. Doble Aguila cards from Venezuela are also OK. I can't intelligently discuss the other Venezuelan issues. The Dominican cards I own are printed on paper stock and are generally pretty flimsy and fragile. Hope this helps. Best,

Kenny

[packs]

Hasn't there been speculation over George Treadway's ethnicity? He is featured in the Old Judge set.

[aljurgela]

Here are a couple of NL examples

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

Here are a couple of NL examples

Always a show-stopper! These are what I would consider the first "mainstream" cards of NL players - from the 1909 Cabanas and 1910 Punch sets.

[BeanTown]

What price range would those two show stopper cards get in an auction? I love punch cards and would love to get one with the original backing seen above. Thanks for sharing

[aljurgela]

Not sure if I had posted this one before... as I got it back from SGC this year....

On value, I am not sure... I know only that it has sold twice and it is my most expense card (the Punch Mendez with back). Both private sales were comfortably north of $100k. The Punch Mendez without the back sold for like $30k or so a few years ago - there are only a couple of copies known. Not sure what the premium would be with the one with the back... I think that there are estimates of 3x-10x the ones without the backing.....

At the end of the day, it is only worth what someone is willing to pay, I guess. For me, the Punch Mendez with back is the most important negro league card extant.... but I won't take issue if you call me biased (but I do have most of the other negro league cards as well)! The Pete Hill Cabanas is the only legit contender to the most important negro league card. Of course, if there was a Pop Lloyd Punch with the back, it would take the title from either of these two!

[aljurgela]

It is generally accepted that there are only 4 Punch cards known with the the back... the Mendez, the Padron (both posted here) and a Viola and a Gonzalez... at least this is what I think to be true. SGC has graded 75 total punch cards and I believe that only two of the ones that have backs have been graded. Only the Mendez has a numerical grade. Best, Al

[Jason19th]

While not exactly on topic - here is the only t206 of a player who played in the negro leagues. Viola was a Cuban who played on the minors with Jacksonville and the with Long Branch in 1915when they were in the Negro leagues

[Leon]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

It is generally accepted that there are only 4 Punch cards known with the the back... the Mendez, the Padron (both posted here) and a Viola and a Gonzalez... at least this is what I think to be true. SGC has graded 75 total punch cards and I believe that only two of the ones that have backs have been graded. Only the Mendez has a numerical grade. Best, Al

Great info Al, nice cards too!!

[Tim Kindler]

Al,
Thanks for posting the pics of the PUNCH cards. I don't think I have ever seen one before. You learn something new everyday! Beautiful Little Cards!

[sreader3]

For reference, here's an N172 Treadway (Denver team variation).

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

It is generally accepted that there are only 4 Punch cards known with the the back... the Mendez, the Padron (both posted here) and a Viola and a Gonzalez... at least this is what I think to be true. SGC has graded 75 total punch cards and I believe that only two of the ones that have backs have been graded. Only the Mendez has a numerical grade. Best, Al

Al - could you post a picture of one of the backs? Why are cards with backs so difficult to find? Were they meant to be removed?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Jimmy Claxton 1916?

Not mine

[Stetson_1883]

Ohhh I want that card!

Wanna sell?

Wikipedia says his dad was black and mom was white.

[DixieBaseball]

1910 - T211 Memphis - Davis ( I don't own this card anymore) - I have always had my suspicions on this player...

[aljurgela]

I will be posting a YouTube video on this set soon as well...

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

I will be posting a YouTube video on this set soon as well...

I now have an entire YouTube video posted on the Punch cards in general if you want some more information on this set.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

I now have an entire YouTube video posted on the Punch cards in general if you want some more information on this set.

Link?

[aljurgela]

Yeah. New to this Leon. Will post the link tomorrow.

[aljurgela]

Here is the link to the Punch video as Leon requested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khfYeqNzrAk

[bcbgcbrcb]

Obviously, not a card, but this original 1884 Bellaire Globes team photo pictures Sol White (back row, far right) and represents the earliest appearance of a Negro League Hall of Famer on any type of collectible. BTW this 1-of-a-kind photo is available in the current Hake's Auction.

[Butch7999]

Is there -- and if there is, can anyone show -- any 19th-century card or postcard featuring Frank Grant?
We have digital images of the 1887 Buffalo team photo that includes Grant, and of one or two steel engravings
from 19th-century newspapers, but a card or postcard would be something we'd greatly appreciate seeing.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Frank Grant does appear on an 1887 Buffalo team cabinet card, unfortunately, the only one that I know of was part of the infamous theft from the Baseball HOF Library in Cooperstown. If that one ever came to market, I think it might be seized by the FBI.

Grant also does appear on one newspaper woodcut that I know of, its an issue from the Cleveland Gazette from 1889 picturing Grant on the Cuban Giants.

RPPC's did not exist before 1900 so a 19th Century postcard is an impossibility. I don't know of any other 19th Century Grant photos that exist but it's possible, he played on some good Cuban Giants teams during the 1890's so something could be out there.....

[h2oya311]

[oldjudge]

Moses Fleetwood Walker--The last black major league player before Jackie Robinson. Walker is pictured in this 1888 Syracuse Stars cabinet standing at extreme left. Also pictured is another black player, Robert Higgins.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Moses Fleetwood Walker--The last black major league player before Jackie Robinson. Walker is pictured in this 1888 Syracuse Stars cabinet standing at extreme left. Also pictured is another black player, Robert Higgins.

That's a fantastic cabinet Jay. Thanks for sharing....

And thanks to everyone else who posted up some pics in this thread too. It looks like Negro League/Cuban collecting is still going strong. Some fantastic cards shown.

[oldjudge]

Thanks Leon. BTW, standing next to Walker is Ed Dundon. He was the first deaf player in Major League Baseball history. He pitched for the Columbus Buckeyes of the American Association in 1883 and 1884.

[rhettyeakley]

There are these as well featuring Robert Higgins...

1887 Syracuse Cabinet
http://blog.robertedwardauctions.com/?p=752


There is also this item that came out of a scrapbook and had some subsequent restoration...
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../#&gid=1&pid=1

[Butch7999]

To Phil and Derek, serious thanks!

[Arazi4442]

I've always loved the sets from Cuba, Venezuela and Puerto Rico. Is there any chance we could see more of these cards hit the market with the US re-establishing relations with Cuba?
Is there any way to know how many cards made it out of Cuba before '61?

[Kenny Cole]

I don't think there is much question anymore that there are already way more Cuban cards in the US than there are in Cuba. There are some untapped collections over there, I'm sure, but there have been plenty of folks over there looking for cards for at least the past 20 years and they did a pretty good job of canvassing the area.