The National - New Management

[Rich Klein]

Couple of comments

1) The 1st East Coast National was either in 1987 or 1988. They were going on before I moved to Dallas

2) If I followed the articlet correctly, The quote about Corporates is from Al Durso, head of the NSCC Dealer Board and not any of the new promoters. If I read that correctly, understand it's a dealer saying he understand what he believes is truly important for the NSCC future

3) And a question -- I went to the 1997 Fan Fest at what was then the Cleveland Convention Center and never had a problem driving in the 20 minutes nor finding a parking space. How much different is the new Convention Center from the old one?

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

When I read the Huntington Convention Center part, I had the opposite reaction. I think the HCC would be an upgrade over the IX Center. More/better hotels, easier transportation, closer to different attractions (JACK Casino, Rock Hall, etc.), and an overall nicer facility. Parking will be interesting, but I'm hoping by 2024, there's an improved parking situation in that area of the city. With the Haslams (and the city as a whole) looking to build up that area of the city, I think there's a possibility for that to happen. Regarding the amount of space, the main room at the IX Center is 280k sq. ft. vs. 225k sq. ft. for the main room at the HCC. It's overall a nicer facility, and the difference in space is negligible when thinking about the "wasted" space at the IX Center.

Come back to Cleveland!

I think there are a decent amount of open lets there...and with the "work from home" initiative hopefully it wouldn't be too bad...might have to wal from W6 or closer to one of the stadiums....but is negligible. Or...could even have a shuttle service rom the other side of the flats! Best of all it is ridiculously closer to my brewery..... Masthead!

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by BobC

Int
Would possibly put the question of what really is most important to attendees at the National right up front for everyone. Is it the large size and easy layout of the exhibition floor, along with easy access and parking at the facility and proximity to the airport and freeways, or is it having all the amenities that one wants available within walking distance of the National facility so you have lots to do after the National is over every day?

Hi Bob...agreed...but it is different to different people. As it relates to CLE specifically (and most like other cities) for people going for a day or two...I think access/size/price would be more important...i.e., IX Center...but for those that consider this a mini vaca...possibly their one free pass for the year from their wives.....I would guess they'd rather be able to catch a "Guardians" game...hit the R&R HOF, grab some dinner at Mallorca...then spend a lot of money imbibing at Masthead And possibly for those crazy kids...hitting the Flats/W6 and soaking up their drinks with a late night panini.

CHI has kind of a similar.....yet larger experience on both ends.... there....but I think the public transportation makes it more appealing for some to stay in the city there.

I don't think parking would be much of an issue because many would be at the hotels or taking the train in from the airport...and those that need to park...so many lots within 1/2 mile are never full mid-week and never on the weekends.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here are three revolutionary ideas:

1. Just put the f'ing show in Rosemont permanently and forget the rest. Comicon is in San Diego every time and no one seems to be the worse for it.

2. License and run regional shows. Comicon does that in several major cities throughout the year.

3. Stick all the corporate booths, breakers and autographs on one side of the hall and all the dealers on the other. I do not really care for a set up that has three different dead zones and dealer tables crammed into every corner of the joint.

Agree on all points...though I do like variety so #1 would be my last choice of the three!

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Couple of comments

1) The 1st East Coast National was either in 1987 or 1988. They were going on before I moved to Dallas

2) If I followed the articlet correctly, The quote about Corporates is from Al Durso, head of the NSCC Dealer Board and not any of the new promoters. If I read that correctly, understand it's a dealer saying he understand what he believes is truly important for the NSCC future

3) And a question -- I went to the 1997 Fan Fest at what was then the Cleveland Convention Center and never had a problem driving in the 20 minutes nor finding a parking space. How much different is the new Convention Center from the old one?

Rich you are probably right. She was definitely running shows at the Westchester site in the 80's. I took the date from the stan musial promo from my collection of show memorabilia which is the first one I have that says east coast national. My point being that the idea of setting up multiple nationals has been tried before.
I also remember that back in the day one strong argument for sites all around the US is that a show like the national with lots of local ads would draw out locals who had cards sitting in basements and attics.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

When I read the Huntington Convention Center part, I had the opposite reaction. I think the HCC would be an upgrade over the IX Center. More/better hotels, easier transportation, closer to different attractions (JACK Casino, Rock Hall, etc.), and an overall nicer facility. Parking will be interesting, but I'm hoping by 2024, there's an improved parking situation in that area of the city. With the Haslams (and the city as a whole) looking to build up that area of the city, I think there's a possibility for that to happen. Regarding the amount of space, the main room at the IX Center is 280k sq. ft. vs. 225k sq. ft. for the main room at the HCC. It's overall a nicer facility, and the difference in space is negligible when thinking about the "wasted" space at the IX Center.

Come back to Cleveland!

Hey Kyle,

Can definitely see many people liking it if it goes to downtown Cleveland. That is why I mentioned it will be interesting to see how people attending react if that change ends up happening and the National returns to Cleveland, but in a new location. But can also see it costing more for people to attend if it is downtown, and having more issues in traveling and getting through the downtown area and so on. Plus you're not right next to the airport anymore.

One big advantage Cleveland has it that it does not have the traffic congestion and issues of a city like say Chicago. And with the freeways and access to the IX Center, you can get around city area pretty easily if you rent a car. I actually prefer the IX Center facility to any of the other National facilities I've ever been to. You have dual entrances, one main floor with no obstructions, and more room than they know what to do with. Not sure where you got your figure for the IX Center's floor dimensions though. My understanding is that the main exhibition floor is actually about 985,000 SF, not the much smaller 280,000 SF number you mentioned. Where did you get that SF number from anyway? That is the other thing if you have the National in Cleveland. You actually would have plenty of space to expand the corporate areas, AND also be able to accommodate even more dealers if you really wanted to. If they ever took advantage of all the space the IX Center has for dealers, they would have to turn away so many of them in the following year when it went to a different venue that I'm guessing it would be a major issue for them and the dealers. The unused space at the IX Center isn't wasted, it was more likely just not used because the National people didn't want to deal with all the pissed off dealers who wouldn't be allowed to set up at other National locations then. And as for the facilities and how nice they are, I don't know about you, but I couldn't care less about the "ambiance" of the room and facilities. When I'm at the National, I'm there to look at cards and get around as easily as possible. Whether the facility is a big open space that looks like the unattractive inside of a factory/warehouse, or has carpeting and flowered wallpaper on the walls makes no difference to me. As long as it has AC and keeps the elements out, enough clean restrooms so lines aren't miles long, and enough places to sit to rest or grab a drink/snack when needed, that is all that really matters. I go to the National to go look at cards, not for a vacation . But I understand that for many people it is a sort of a vacation as well, and they like all the extra amenities they can get. But you usually end up paying for all those extra amenities in some shape or fashion as well. To each his own though,

And again, that is why I said it would be interesting to see how a National in a different Cleveland venue would be viewed by those that attend. There is no right or wrong answer, everyone has their own opinion and how they like things, and what they want to get out of going to the National. All good, just hope they do bring it back to Cleveland one day, whether the IX Center or the Huntington Convention Center.

Saw somewhere that Cleveland's location is a huge plus, where 43% of the entire US population is within 500 miles of it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Hi Bob...agreed...but it is different to different people. As it relates to CLE specifically (and most like other cities) for people going for a day or two...I think access/size/price would be more important...i.e., IX Center...but for those that consider this a mini vaca...possibly their one free pass for the year from their wives.....I would guess they'd rather be able to catch a "Guardians" game...hit the R&R HOF, grab some dinner at Mallorca...then spend a lot of money imbibing at Masthead And possibly for those crazy kids...hitting the Flats/W6 and soaking up their drinks with a late night panini.

CHI has kind of a similar.....yet larger experience on both ends.... there....but I think the public transportation makes it more appealing for some to stay in the city there.

I don't think parking would be much of an issue because many would be at the hotels or taking the train in from the airport...and those that need to park...so many lots within 1/2 mile are never full mid-week and never on the weekends.

Absolutely right. What many don't realize though is that everything is maybe not quite as close and all together around Cleveland's downtown as it is in Chicago in Rosemont around the convention center. Just hope it does come back to Cleveland someday, regardless of what the location is.

[Jewish-collector]

I love the National in Cleveland. Great concert venues like House of Blues, Blossom Music Center, etc,... See you in Cleveland beer chug.gif

[CrackaJackKid]

Hopefully cities like Dallas,St. Louis and or Kansas City will be considered in the future.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

The National seems to be transitioning to mostly modern cards, trade nights, breaks, etc,... so why not create separate Nationals in different locations for vintage, for modern, trade nights, etc,... The Dallas show has about 600 tables, so why not make that a modern National, since I've heard it is almost entirely modern cards.

There used to be a vintage only show up in New York state in the 1990's (?), where the promoter said nothing on dealer tables after 1976 or something like that. And, there used to be a "sports equipment" show in the 1990's in the Baltimore & Washington, DC areas (signs, bats, gloves, uniforms, pennants, etc,...) organized by Washington Senators collector & broadcaster Phil Wood.

Everyone has a different perspective on where the National should be and with a new promoter, it will be interesting to see where they have it in 2024 and 2025.

I would love it for there to be a strictly vintage show. I think it's a matter of who is going to front the money to organize and find a space for it. My biggest gripe with the National was the corporate nonsense coming from sponsors like Whatnot. I do not care about breakers in the slightest, I don't care about card influencers. I'm sure there are many collectors, dealers and hobbyists who feel the same.

[JollyElm]

Just scanning all of the YouTube videos to find decent run-downs (meaning videos showing the vintage cards in all of their glory) of The National was a 'SMH to the Max' undertaking. The self-importance of these (are they really called) 'influencers' was annoying as all hell. They pretend they're doing a walk-through for the people who couldn't attend, but 99.9% of it is them talking about themselves and referring to other videos they've done. Plus, do people have actual names anymore? Even a regular nickname? Every person mentioned was just a screen name. Not once did I hear one of these self-involved people say, "Hey, it was great finally meeting Dave in person. What a guy!" Nope. More like, "On day 3, I received a great gift from "PackBreakingNerdBoy187," who I know through "RippingInMyBasement492." He does a podcast with "DuckDuckGooseyGoo22." Don't forget to hit the 'subscribe' button!!!"
There's only so much I could take of these videographing 'personalities.' My gawd!!!!

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Rich you are probably right. She was definitely running shows at the Westchester site in the 80's. I took the date from the stan musial promo from my collection of show memorabilia which is the first one I have that says east coast national. My point being that the idea of setting up multiple nationals has been tried before.
I also remember that back in the day one strong argument for sites all around the US is that a show like the national with lots of local ads would draw out locals who had cards sitting in basements and attics.

i used our friend Google and yes the 1st ECN was 1988

https://trademarks.justia.com/737/11...-73711138.html

And just before the Baseball Strike in 1994 many of the larger promoters were creating a regional circuit of larger shows to go to because even then not everyone could get tables at the NSCC. That work stopped when interest passed after the strike

Rich

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

The National seems to be transitioning to mostly modern cards, trade nights, breaks, etc,... so why not create separate Nationals in different locations for vintage, for modern, trade nights, etc,... The Dallas show has about 600 tables, so why not make that a modern National, since I've heard it is almost entirely modern cards.

There used to be a vintage only show up in New York state in the 1990's (?), where the promoter said nothing on dealer tables after 1976 or something like that. And, there used to be a "sports equipment" show in the 1990's in the Baltimore & Washington, DC areas (signs, bats, gloves, uniforms, pennants, etc,...) organized by Washington Senators collector & broadcaster Phil Wood.

Everyone has a different perspective on where the National should be and with a new promoter, it will be interesting to see where they have it in 2024 and 2025.

That show was in Albany NY and run by Ed Keetz. I went to 1-2 of those all vintage shows and they were a ton of fun

And you do know there is a show in Strongsville. Ohio which is almost all vintage. It was all vintage displayed but that eased up slightly after Paul Fusco passed on

Rich

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by BobC

Interesting how in the article they mentioned the likelihood of the National coming back to Cleveland in 2024, but at the Huntington Convention Center, not at the IX Center where it has always been held at before. No one else seemed to catch or mention that.

The Huntington Convention Center is in downtown Cleveland, not anywhere near Hopkins Airport, and nowhere near as easy and accessible to get into and out of as the IX Center. The Huntington Convention Center is also much, much smaller than the IX Center, with an exhibition floor area of approximately only 225,000 SF, along with an adjoining ballroom space of about 32,000 SF. The IX Center building is over 2.2 million SF in total size, with around 1,000,000 SF for the exhibition floor. That is a huge difference. When the IX Center originally opened in 1985, it was then billed as the largest single building exhibition facility in the world at that time. The Huntington Convention Center has 1,200 parking spaces in an adjacent garage, but claims that upwards of another 5,000 parking spaces are withing walking distance. However, those additional other spaces are also used by Clevelanders going to work and visiting downtown for whatever other reasons. They may not be as accessible as some would like/think during the weekdays. And a lot of Cleveland parking garages are notorious for jacking up their parking fees during special events, like the National would be. Meanwhile, the IX Center has a 3,500 parking space surface lot with absolutely no competition for spaces. Everyone in that lot is going to the IX Center, period.

I can easily see the City of Cleveland behind a low-ball offer to the National organizers as an attempt to get the National downtown so they can more fully utilize the Huntington Convention Center, which was constructed in 2013. It has been under-utilized since it was finished, and if so, this is an obvious attempt to get the major hotels, restaurants and other downtown attractions a lot more activity and business as a result. The City of Cleveland had actually been trying to get rid of the IX Center in the past as they acquired the property in 2001, with the intention of knocking it down to extend the Hopkins Airport runways for more international flights with bigger jets. The lack of hotel/motel rooms and other amenities directly around the IX Center has always been the biggest knock against Cleveland as a site for the National, almost the exact polar opposite of how things are in Chicago. Of course, moving the National downtown to a much smaller, more congested downtown location will also likely mean much higher lodging costs, more traveling time to get around and back and forth to the airport, more traffic and other such issues, if they do end up using the Huntington Convention Center instead of the IX Center going forward.

If it does end up that the National comes back to Cleveland in this new downtown space, will be interesting to see how it is taken by those coming to it. Will likely end up costing people more for lodging, with more travel, parking and location hassles/costs, and maybe a lot more issues for dealers trying to get in and out of the facility, a lot more congestion and maybe fewer dealers or less dealer space, given the comments about focusing more on corporate businesses at the Nationals going forward. I don't think you can easily, if possibly at all, match the size and space available at the IX Center to put on the National. Would possibly put the question of what really is most important to attendees at the National right up front for everyone. Is it the large size and easy layout of the exhibition floor, along with easy access and parking at the facility and proximity to the airport and freeways, or is it having all the amenities that one wants available within walking distance of the National facility so you have lots to do after the National is over every day?

No way it goes to a venue with 250,000 square feet of space. I guarantee that. I have done the National for 13 years and any venue less than 350,000 square feet will not be considered. They are looking for closer to 400,000 Square feet. If it goes to Cleveland, it will be at the IX center.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by ncinin

I know of at least two dealers who historically picked one booth who now pick two booths now and I assume they have someone else setup with them. A couple of years ago the NSCC committee disallowed dealers from picking more than two booths unless they already had a history of such to prevent dealers to start picking four booths and dispersing booths in that manner.

I assume most people who setup at the National for the first time in AC were selected after added booths were added to the original AC floor plan and contacted after the lottery held in Chicago last year.

I believe a lot of dealers like Scott Russell will end up setting up in Chicago when the show gets closer. This year I know five or so booths were made available last minute as Steve Werley passed and a Canadian had trouble crossing the border and another was sick. Plus I am sure some dealers passed on AC as you can skip one National every five years without penalty. I can think of one dealer off hand in that situation.

Another possibility is people with a 5 or better priority who hasn’t setup in recent shows started picking again for someone else to use.

Bottom line I believe there are more booths in 2023 than 2021 in Chicago. I don’t have the interest to spend the time to analyze the dealers lists to figure it out. If someone has a 2021 floor plan it may note the number of dealer booths or some one could count them if they wish.

The Chicago show footprint is larger than ever using the entire first floor exhibit space with 632 dealer booths and much more corporate booths.

This is how it works. If you have historically gotten one booth and you have a high priority, you can pick two booths any year or every year. That is likely what is happening. I have a 13 priority and have gotten two tables for a number of years but should have gone for 4 back when you get get up to 4. As stated, they did away with that option a few years ago to prevent all of the tables being gobbled up by dealers who were supplying new dealers with tables. The lottery on Saturday was a zoo. There were hundreds of dealers lining up to hopefully get a booth. I think most were disappointed.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by rand1com

No way it goes to a venue with 250,000 square feet of space. I guarantee that. I have done the National for 13 years and any venue less than 350,000 square feet will not be considered. They are looking for closer to 400,000 Square feet. If it goes to Cleveland, it will be at the IX center.

That is what I was kind of thinking as well Randy, especially when the article talked about the importance of the corporate entities and their expanding presence at the Nationals. The Cleveland IX Center has room to spare compared to Chicago and Atlantic City, so much so that they could expand the corporate, auction house, breaker, and other special areas, and still have plenty of room for more dealers than they have now.

But the downtown area does have more hotel rooms and more restaurants and other amenities. But Cleveland also doesn't have the traffic and congestion of a city like Chicago. You can get a rental car or Uber and pretty much get wherever you need/want to go around the city pretty quickly and easily. And there is an awful lot to see if you want to take the time. But I think most people at the National are really there for the show and the cards/memorabilia most of all.

Plus, the airport is literally next door to the IX Center. You always hear some people have issues with Atlantic City because there is no major airport close by. That isn't an issue with the IX Center. And I know for a fact that proximity is a plus for guests and people coming to the IX Center. The very first National in Cleveland was held at the IX Center in 1997, and I was there getting some autographs. I asked Sandy Koufax while he was signing a ball for me how he liked coming to Cleveland. He stopped, looked up at me with a sort of faraway look, and after a second said he didn't know. He got off his plane, got picked up and brought right over to IX Center for his signing session, and as soon as he was done, they were taking him right back to the airport for a flight he already had booked to go back home the same day. I'm not sure they can do that for autograph guests at a lot of other places. Atlantic City, definitely not. Rosemont has O'Hare nearby, only about 3 miles away, but it is still a lot easier and quicker to get from Hopkins to the IX Center, than it is to get from O'Hare to the John E. Stephens Center. That isn't necessarily a big deal for most people attending the National, but it is one of those little things that the National organizers may pay attention to, and can have some influence on their decision.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

It was 1990 or 91 that Gloria Rothstein put on the first East Coast National at the White plains convention center. It has I believe been held every year since. The managment team that has the new National contract has been running the White plains show for a number if years now.

J

The East Coast National is actually not in White Plains this year. It is in Suffern, NY in Rockland Community College's fieldhouse. No idea why the change...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Just scanning all of the YouTube videos to find decent run-downs (meaning videos showing the vintage cards in all of their glory) of The National was a 'SMH to the Max' undertaking. The self-importance of these (are they really called) 'influencers' was annoying as all hell. They pretend they're doing a walk-through for the people who couldn't attend, but 99.9% of it is them talking about themselves and referring to other videos they've done. Plus, do people have actual names anymore? Even a regular nickname? Every person mentioned was just a screen name. Not once did I hear one of these self-involved people say, "Hey, it was great finally meeting Dave in person. What a guy!" Nope. More like, "On day 3, I received a great gift from "PackBreakingNerdBoy187," who I know through "RippingInMyBasement492." He does a podcast with "DuckDuckGooseyGoo22." Don't forget to hit the 'subscribe' button!!!"
There's only so much I could take of these videographing 'personalities.' My gawd!!!!

Thanks for the laughs. So ridiculous, and has absolutely nothing to do with the hobby I know and love. I understand there’s a big market for it, but wish they had a second (or alternate) National just to accommodate this nonsense.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by BobC

Plus, the airport is literally next door to the IX Center. You always hear some people have issues with Atlantic City because there is no major airport close by. That isn't an issue with the IX Center. And I know for a fact that proximity is a plus for guests and people coming to the IX Center. The very first National in Cleveland was held at the IX Center in 1997, and I was there getting some autographs. I asked Sandy Koufax while he was signing a ball for me how he liked coming to Cleveland. He stopped, looked up at me with a sort of faraway look, and after a second said he didn't know. He got off his plane, got picked up and brought right over to IX Center for his signing session, and as soon as he was done, they were taking him right back to the airport for a flight he already had booked to go back home the same day. I'm not sure they can do that for autograph guests at a lot of other places. Atlantic City, definitely not. Rosemont has O'Hare nearby, only about 3 miles away, but it is still a lot easier and quicker to get from Hopkins to the IX Center, than it is to get from O'Hare to the John E. Stephens Center. That isn't necessarily a big deal for most people attending the National, but it is one of those little things that the National organizers may pay attention to, and can have some influence on their decision.

I sat next to Eddie Murray on a flight back to LA from the National in 2019 and that is basically the story he told me. The promoters bring them in the day before signing, put them up for one night, then fly them home the next day. They report for duty early in the day to sign mail order and the promoters stuff. It is part reunion with former teammates and fellow HOFers but mostly it is wading through several large stacks of mail order items and stock photos. Then they go onstage at the pavilion and sign their live signings, then they can leave. He opts to go home immediately. I told him about the NSCC from the collector's side: show, dinner party, bar, bed, repeat. I then started running material and jokes about collectors for him. He cracks up and tells me that I should be a comedian. When I tell him I do stand-up on the side, he says that when he first saw me he thought I was Brian Posehn but when I said I was a lawyer he thought I might take it the wrong way, so he didn't mention it. He then was asking me about where I'm from, what I do, etc. I even invited him to the Burbank Comedy Festival where I was going to be performing. At the end he offered me a handshake.

[Leon]

cool story

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I sat next to Eddie Murray on a flight back to LA from the National in 2019 and that is basically the story he told me. The promoters bring them in the day before signing, put them up for one night, then fly them home the next day. They report for duty early in the day to sign mail order and the promoters stuff. It is part reunion with former teammates and fellow HOFers but mostly it is wading through several large stacks of mail order items and stock photos. Then they go onstage at the pavilion and sign their live signings, then they can leave. He opts to go home immediately. I told him about the NSCC from the collector's side: show, dinner party, bar, bed, repeat. I then started running material and jokes about collectors for him. He cracks up and tells me that I should be a comedian. When I tell him I do stand-up on the side, he says that when he first saw me he thought I was Brian Posehn but when I said I was a lawyer he thought I might take it the wrong way, so he didn't mention it. He then was asking me about where I'm from, what I do, etc. I even invited him to the Burbank Comedy Festival where I was going to be performing. At the end he offered me a handshake.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I sat next to Eddie Murray on a flight back to LA from the National in 2019 and that is basically the story he told me. The promoters bring them in the day before signing, put them up for one night, then fly them home the next day. They report for duty early in the day to sign mail order and the promoters stuff. It is part reunion with former teammates and fellow HOFers but mostly it is wading through several large stacks of mail order items and stock photos. Then they go onstage at the pavilion and sign their live signings, then they can leave. He opts to go home immediately. I told him about the NSCC from the collector's side: show, dinner party, bar, bed, repeat. I then started running material and jokes about collectors for him. He cracks up and tells me that I should be a comedian. When I tell him I do stand-up on the side, he says that when he first saw me he thought I was Brian Posehn but when I said I was a lawyer he thought I might take it the wrong way, so he didn't mention it. He then was asking me about where I'm from, what I do, etc. I even invited him to the Burbank Comedy Festival where I was going to be performing. At the end he offered me a handshake.

Eddie is very cool. I bumped into him outside Chantilly one time and had to share the fact that he is the answer to my favorite trivia question as he is the only player in baseball history to lead the entire Majors in batting and yet not win his league batting title.

Willie McGee was hitting .335 in 1990 when he was traded to Oakland where he hit .272 the rest of the year for a total of .324. Eddie batted .331. However McGee had enough at bats in the NL to qualify for the batting crown beating Eddie by 4 points. The AL leader that year was George Brett at.329. So Eddie led the Majors in hitting at .331 with no batting title to show for it.

He listened to the whole thing (which I can't believe he didn't already know) and smiled and said "I bet you win a lot of bar bets with that"