PSA Economy – Ground Truth

[parkplace33]

Hoping to get information from any NET54 members on if/when PSA Economy service will be back and at what price. It was suspended in March 2021.

This question was posed on another platform and the following answers were suggested:

- 1 October 2021
- Beginning of 2022
- Summer 2022 (100 minimum card submission along with price increase)
- When the PSA backlog ends
- Never

I have some cards to grade, but I do not want to wait 6 months or a year. Any info?

[53toppscollector]

If you look at the current tiers:

Walk-through: $600
Super Express: $300
Express: $150

Logically, Regular Service will open at $100 per card. Economy will open at $75 (possibly $50) per card. People suspected Regular would come back on October 1, I think it might be a bit later, but sometime in October seems likely. I would peg economy opening back up in early 2022.

Value/bulk is likely not going to open until mid-2022 at the earliest, if it even opens in what was considered "Value" before.

PSA has hired a ton of new employees, and once the backlog is cleared, they'll need work to justify those new employees. I think Nat Turner wants to keep PSA busy, so I think they will open Regular again soon.

That said, they've basically had the faucet shut off for what, 6 months? There are lots of people out there who have been accumulating raw cards and just holding them, waiting for PSA to open again. They will have to do some kind of tiered approach when opening up a $100 service level, and definitely when they open up a $50 service level, because if they don't, they are going to literally receive millions of cards in a few weeks.

PSA graded 669,000 cards in August. That seems to be about their capacity. When they open up Regular, I suspect they'll receive 4-5 months of work in 3-4 weeks. It will be interesting to see how they handle it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do we really think PSA has closed the door on dealers who submit massive quantities of lesser stars and who have been mainstays of their business for years like 4 Sharp Corners?

[53toppscollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do we really think PSA has closed the door on dealers who submit massive quantities of lesser stars and who have been mainstays of their business for years like 4 Sharp Corners?

I think there are 2 things to consider:

1. From a business perspective only, PSA is better off grading fewer cards at a higher price to meet their targets. Grading 500,000 cards at an average cost of $100 per card is $50M. Grading 1,000,000 cards at $50 per card gets you the same $50M, but with more actual work/labor. Obviously. It has been in PSA's interest to keep only a few service levels open, at much higher prices. And if they were hurting moneywise, I suspect they'd have opened up more service levels, but I am guessing they've received a steady stream of cards at Express and Super Express over the last few months.

2. Nat Turner has talked a good game about the importance of the set registry and the ability to grade base cards at a reasonable price. But people sending in 5th year Craig Biggio cards at $8 per card is basically how we got into this backlog. The set registry is important, it is basically what got me back into the hobby 5 years ago, even though my stance on it has changed drastically in the last 18 months. I suspect bulk/value will come back eventually, at something like $20 per card, but with massive turnaround times (12-18 months minimum)

I think what we have learned, if nothing else, is that PSA is still the gold standard in terms of grading, despite all of their obvious flaws. They clearly know that too, and know that they can pretty much set the terms at this point, and a big portion of the hobby base will just go with whatever they offer. SGC seems to have picked up some small market share, but not enough to worry PSA at all. And Beckett appears to mostly just be a lost cause at this point

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

I think there are 2 things to consider:

1. From a business perspective only, PSA is better off grading fewer cards at a higher price to meet their targets. Grading 500,000 cards at an average cost of $100 per card is $50M. Grading 1,000,000 cards at $50 per card gets you the same $50M, but with more actual work/labor. Obviously. It has been in PSA's interest to keep only a few service levels open, at much higher prices. And if they were hurting moneywise, I suspect they'd have opened up more service levels, but I am guessing they've received a steady stream of cards at Express and Super Express over the last few months.

2. Nat Turner has talked a good game about the importance of the set registry and the ability to grade base cards at a reasonable price. But people sending in 5th year Craig Biggio cards at $8 per card is basically how we got into this backlog. The set registry is important, it is basically what got me back into the hobby 5 years ago, even though my stance on it has changed drastically in the last 18 months. I suspect bulk/value will come back eventually, at something like $20 per card, but with massive turnaround times (12-18 months minimum)

I think what we have learned, if nothing else, is that PSA is still the gold standard in terms of grading, despite all of their obvious flaws. They clearly know that too, and know that they can pretty much set the terms at this point, and a big portion of the hobby base will just go with whatever they offer. SGC seems to have picked up some small market share, but not enough to worry PSA at all. And Beckett appears to mostly just be a lost cause at this point

James you're very well spoken. I agree :-)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

I think there are 2 things to consider:

1. From a business perspective only, PSA is better off grading fewer cards at a higher price to meet their targets. Grading 500,000 cards at an average cost of $100 per card is $50M. Grading 1,000,000 cards at $50 per card gets you the same $50M, but with more actual work/labor. Obviously. It has been in PSA's interest to keep only a few service levels open, at much higher prices. And if they were hurting moneywise, I suspect they'd have opened up more service levels, but I am guessing they've received a steady stream of cards at Express and Super Express over the last few months.

2. Nat Turner has talked a good game about the importance of the set registry and the ability to grade base cards at a reasonable price. But people sending in 5th year Craig Biggio cards at $8 per card is basically how we got into this backlog. The set registry is important, it is basically what got me back into the hobby 5 years ago, even though my stance on it has changed drastically in the last 18 months. I suspect bulk/value will come back eventually, at something like $20 per card, but with massive turnaround times (12-18 months minimum)

I think what we have learned, if nothing else, is that PSA is still the gold standard in terms of grading, despite all of their obvious flaws. They clearly know that too, and know that they can pretty much set the terms at this point, and a big portion of the hobby base will just go with whatever they offer. SGC seems to have picked up some small market share, but not enough to worry PSA at all. And Beckett appears to mostly just be a lost cause at this point

Logical points to be sure. Two things. One, I'm stunned so many people are sending in so many cards at these higher levels. Incredible. Where are all these (presumably) expensive cards to be worth $150 and up for grading coming from? Two, even if it might be rational to stop taking subs from the 4 Sharps of the world, I still suspect there is a back door here for dealers who have been that instrumental to the success of the company.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Logical points to be sure. Two things. One, I'm stunned so many people are sending in so many cards at these higher levels. Incredible. Where are all these (presumably) expensive cards to be worth $150 and up for grading coming from? Two, even if it might be rational to stop taking subs from the 4 Sharps of the world, I still suspect there is a back door here for dealers who have been that instrumental to the success of the company.

Peter I don't necessarily think that the cards being sent it are expensive. I feel it's the inflow of more people who have a ton of money that think of PSA cards as an investment tool/assest they don't care if its $250 or $150 a card, that's peanuts to them. They just want the cards back quick. PSA in terms of business decision, to me I feel is making all the right moves. The slow and steady tiered approach to lowered services levels is benefiting them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Peter I don't necessarily think that the cards being sent it are expensive. I feel it's the inflow of more people have a ton of money that think of PSA cards as an investment tool/assest they don't care if its $250 or $150 a card, that's peanuts to them.

Crazy if true lol.

[hcv123]

I suspect a lot of the subs are new/renewed collectors looking at their raw cards and thinking - "Holy $hit!" - mine is a 9 or 10 and well worth the $150 - $300 grading fee........I think most of us know the end of that story.

[53toppscollector]

The oversaturation of the market with parallels, autos and other hits also does present people with more possible cards to submit. At this point, most people aren't sending in base cards at $150 per card, but with 20+ parallels for every base card, plus inserts and autos, there are still cards that people will rationalize sending in at $150.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One, I'm stunned so many people are sending in so many cards at these higher levels. Incredible. Where are all these (presumably) expensive cards to be worth $150 and up for grading coming from?

+1. I assumed that the business would mostly dry up at that price level, and that PSA would be forced to return to reasonable grading prices. I seem to have been proven wrong. I continue to be stunned month after month. And even if we eventually see $20 per card, that is not low enough to keep graded set collecting alive. Even if they eventually get back to $8 per card specials, they may have already killed off a large chunk of graded set collecting by that time. It remains to be seen if that will happen, but if it does it could eventually come back to hurt PSA (and all TPGs) in the long run, after the current boom ends. They are going to need to keep grading a lot of cards to justify their expenses given the massive growth that they've recently undergone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chadeast

+1. I assumed that the business would mostly dry up at that price level, and that PSA would be forced to return to reasonable grading prices. I seem to have been proven wrong. I continue to be stunned month after month. And even if we eventually see $20 per card, that is not low enough to keep graded set collecting alive. Even if they eventually get back to $8 per card specials, they may have already killed off a large chunk of graded set collecting by that time. It remains to be seen if that will happen, but if it does it could eventually come back to hurt PSA (and all TPGs) in the long run, after the current boom ends. They are going to need to keep grading a lot of cards to justify their expenses given the massive growth that they've recently undergone.

Yeah, hard to believe anyone is paying $150 to grade a 66 Topps Chico Ruiz. And I agree, no matter how many people may be crazy now, the supply of cards on which people are willing to spend $150 and up to grade just cannot be limitless.

[53toppscollector]

I think in an ideal world, they develop a service level specifically for base cards, with a fee of $10, but turnaround times of 12-18 months, something like that.

If you are playing the set registry game, anything more than $10 per card for a common just feels excessive. If you are putting together a fully graded set, you probably also don't need the card back in 3 weeks because you aren't flipping it. By putting in a very long timeline for returning the cards, it also deters flippers, or at least makes it more difficult for them.

[conor912]

The days of $10 PSA grades are gone. Caput. Maybe a $20/1 year turnaround….maybe.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by conor912

The days of $10 PSA grades are gone. Caput. Maybe a $20/1 year turnaround….maybe.

That's basically where they were when they shut down for value specials, so this makes sense. Even before that (late 2019) it was $12 per for value/specials.

[Republicaninmass]

Or "varies by demand"



Told me likley a year...the very last submissions to be processed

[Johnny630]

I would not be surprised if the lowest PSA service level will be $50 per card by the middle/end of next year.

It is my opinion that Mr. Turner has this company going in the right direction for the collector.

[Snowman]

I don't believe that long-time bulk submitters have some sort of "back door" access to lower tiered bulk grading services. That news would leak pretty quickly and wouldn't be too difficult to track down. It would also be a huge PR blow to PSA's brand if some submitters were still allowed to submit while others weren't. I think the likelihood of this currently happening is extremely low. It just wouldn't be in PSA's best interest.

As far as where all these cards are coming from, I think some people here are grossly underestimating the amount of recent growth this hobby has experienced. Collectors within the vintage community are probably a bit sheltered from seeing just how expansive that growth is unless they've made it a point to research and quantify it in some way. Obviously, vintage has grown a lot as well, but it's a fraction of the growth that the modern side of the hobby has seen over the past few years.

As far as when they'll get back to offering lower tiers and cheaper prices, I wouldn't hold my breath. There's still a strong demand at $150 per card. Sure, $100 per card is coming, and I suppose it could be Oct 1st, but I wouldn't bet on it, although I also definitely wouldn't bet on it being later than Jan 2022. But $50 per card pricing is probably still quite a ways out. They still have a sizeable backlog to get through, and PSA knows the floodgates would open back up even at $50 per card. My guess is we'll see them milk this $150 service for at least a couple more months, then reopen a $100 tier sometime in Q4 or on Jan 1st or something like that. Then they'll milk those $100 submissions for at least a few months while they continue to chip away at the backlog, then they'll reopen a $50 tier or something in that neighborhood around the summer of 2022. I think they'll probably offer lower tiers again after they get caught up on the backlog, but it's going to look very different than it does right now. I would guess that ultra-modern bulk value tiers could become a thing of the past with PSA. If you have an ultra-modern card that you want graded, you'll have to pony up the $50 service level or something like that. My guess would be that the bulk value tiers with the lowest pricing will be offered through the quarterly specials, and will be aimed primarily at set collectors. So Q1 2023 might be something like 1950s baseball, and Q2 might be pre-war, and Q3 might be 1980s basketball & 1970s football, stuff like that. I just don't see them reopening bulk value submissions with no restrictions again unless the hobby completely face plants or they find a way to pentuple their current workflow.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't believe that long-time bulk submitters have some sort of "back door" access to lower tiered bulk grading services. That news would leak pretty quickly and wouldn't be too difficult to track down. It would also be a huge PR blow to PSA's brand if some submitters were still allowed to submit while others weren't. I think the likelihood of this currently happening is extremely low. It just wouldn't be in PSA's best interest.

As far as where all these cards are coming from, I think some people here are grossly underestimating the amount of recent growth this hobby has experienced. Collectors within the vintage community are probably a bit sheltered from seeing just how expansive that growth is unless they've made it a point to research and quantify it in some way. Obviously, vintage has grown a lot as well, but it's a fraction of the growth that the modern side of the hobby has seen over the past few years.

As far as when they'll get back to offering lower tiers and cheaper prices, I wouldn't hold my breath. There's still a strong demand at $150 per card. Sure, $100 per card is coming, and I suppose it could be Oct 1st, but I wouldn't bet on it, although I also definitely wouldn't bet on it being later than Jan 2022. But $50 per card pricing is probably still quite a ways out. They still have a sizeable backlog to get through, and PSA knows the floodgates would open back up even at $50 per card. My guess is we'll see them milk this $150 service for at least a couple more months, then reopen a $100 tier sometime in Q4 or on Jan 1st or something like that. Then they'll milk those $100 submissions for at least a few months while they continue to chip away at the backlog, then they'll reopen a $50 tier or something in that neighborhood around the summer of 2022. I think they'll probably offer lower tiers again after they get caught up on the backlog, but it's going to look very different than it does right now. I would guess that ultra-modern bulk value tiers could become a thing of the past with PSA. If you have an ultra-modern card that you want graded, you'll have to pony up the $50 service level or something like that. My guess would be that the bulk value tiers with the lowest pricing will be offered through the quarterly specials, and will be aimed primarily at set collectors. So Q1 2023 might be something like 1950s baseball, and Q2 might be pre-war, and Q3 might be 1980s basketball & 1970s football, stuff like that. I just don't see them reopening bulk value submissions with no restrictions again unless the hobby completely face plants or they find a way to pentuple their current workflow.

Spot On Snowman I agree with this pretty much to a Tee, this where I see things going. I understand it, like it and except it, it's reality

[BobbyStrawberry]

I think it all depends what the response is as they open up lower priced tiers. I think $100 or even $75 are not far off; when it gets to $50 and below, that's when we might see them again flooded with submissions containing hundreds of 2020 Panini base cards and the like.

[abothebear]

All in all, this seems like an outright disaster for a lot of collectors. I am a low budget collector. I get a new card or two once every couple of months, usually under $10. I know the business side of the hobby doesn't need the likes of me, so I'm not clamoring for some unrealistic reversal for my sake. But it seems to me the grading craze is going to affect everybody. If a PSA case is being valued at $100 - $150, any card for sale in a PSA case should be expected to go for market value of the card plus market value of the case. That is a significant premium on any card, but disastrous for cards under $300. The raw market will certainly be getting an influx of collectors abandoning the graded game - another blow to low budget collectors like myself. I suppose we are stuck waiting it out, hoping a correction of some kind happens sooner or later. Eight years ago I could get almost anything I wanted at a reasonable price (I only lacked the money). Now if I had the money I don't know if I could justify spending it knowing its all inflated 1990-style, except worse because it is shifted up $100 because of the case and the related consequences for the raw market.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

PSA has hired a ton of new employees...

PSA graded 669,000 cards in August.

I'm curious how many graders are employed by everybody's favorite opinion seller.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by abothebear

All in all, this seems like an outright disaster for a lot of collectors. I am a low budget collector. I get a new card or two once every couple of months, usually under $10. I know the business side of the hobby doesn't need the likes of me, so I'm not clamoring for some unrealistic reversal for my sake. But it seems to me the grading craze is going to affect everybody. If a PSA case is being valued at $100 - $150, any card for sale in a PSA case should be expected to go for market value of the card plus market value of the case. That is a significant premium on any card, but disastrous for cards under $300. The raw market will certainly be getting an influx of collectors abandoning the graded game - another blow to low budget collectors like myself. I suppose we are stuck waiting it out, hoping a correction of some kind happens sooner or later. Eight years ago I could get almost anything I wanted at a reasonable price (I only lacked the money). Now if I had the money I don't know if I could justify spending it knowing its all inflated 1990-style, except worse because it is shifted up $100 because of the case and the related consequences for the raw market.

You say this as if there aren't any other options for sending your cards to. SGC is crushing it right now. CSG offers super cheap grading with longer waits, but at least you can submit to them. I've been sending a lot of my stuff to SGC though lately.

[Johnny630]

As every lower price point opens at PSA, the next being 100$ Per card it is my contention that SGC loses market share/business. SGC modern graded cards sell much lower then PSA modern. If is my believe they’re not fully capitalizing on that market. If they had sub grades for modern cards it would greatly help their market share.

I love both PSA and SGC.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You say this as if there aren't any other options for sending your cards to. SGC is crushing it right now. CSG offers super cheap grading with longer waits, but at least you can submit to them. I've been sending a lot of my stuff to SGC though lately.

SGC crushes it except for prices attained.

[abothebear]

Yeah, I know there are other (better) choices. My remarks weren't about the choices people have for grading, they were on the action of the collective and its effects. The mass of action revolves around PSA, and the market consequences are significant. I hope those who get cards graded shift to PSA's competition. Perhaps if it balances out between other TPGs (which it might if the "PSA" premium gets way out of hand for long enough), the overall market will return to reason.

Originally Posted by Snowman

You say this as if there aren't any other options for sending your cards to. SGC is crushing it right now. CSG offers super cheap grading with longer waits, but at least you can submit to them. I've been sending a lot of my stuff to SGC though lately.

[Yoda]

I have had approximately 50 post war vintage cards with PSA waiting for grading since May of 2020. These were submitted under their old bulk pricing. Thus, I have lost the time value of my money, since I intended to auction them off as soon as received. But, depending on the grades received, there might be some price increases since their incarceration, so financially I may find myself better off than had there been a quick turnaround. Kind of a 2 edge sword.
SGC has done a great job clearing their backlog, and I have always preferred their holder to PSA's eg., Cracker Jacks. Hopefully, in time collectors will realize that SGC operates in a more professional manner and this will bring about price increases for their cards.
Once my submission is finally received, I am through with PSA forever.

[Mike D.]

They must be planning on bringing Economy back at some point…they’ve said they’ll extend all memberships until you’d get whatever number of months of economy as you’d have had from when they shut down to when your membership was set to expire.

[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Logical points to be sure. Two things. One, I'm stunned so many people are sending in so many cards at these higher levels. Incredible. Where are all these (presumably) expensive cards to be worth $150 and up for grading coming from? Two, even if it might be rational to stop taking subs from the 4 Sharps of the world, I still suspect there is a back door here for dealers who have been that instrumental to the success of the company.

My guess is the majority of cards being graded express right now are modern issues. People spend outrageous amounts on unopened wax in the hopes of hitting autos of superstars or parallel/refractor cards of prospects that are worth thousands in PSA 9/10.

[parkplace33]

Thanks for all the responses, but no knowledge on what PSA will do.

I called PSA as well, but they couldn't give me any information. I will just wait and see.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

They must be planning on bringing Economy back at some point…they’ve said they’ll extend all memberships until you’d get whatever number of months of economy as you’d have had from when they shut down to when your membership was set to expire.

In terms of “Economy” based solely on Economy what do expect that price to be?

I think it will come back for sure, price I would be satisfied with would be around $25 per card for a 12-18 month turn around time.

The days of 12$ per card are in my mind over, I for one hope they are, that’s how we got to the situation we are in now. Thousands of cards not worth grading being sent in. I would think PSA doesn’t want or need a price structure of less then $25 at any level per card.

[yanks87]

I too think the days of the $8-$12 grade are LONG gone, which makes me happy that I got all of my crappy cards in when I did. $20 per card is a threshold for me, but I am also cheap and sit on my cards, not looking for the quick flip or have a ton into them.

I have two orders in with PSA right now, one that has 20 cards, and the other is a 172 T206's, T201's and Diamond Stars, once that comes back, I will be done submitting until they open back up the "value" grading. I am fine with waiting, but will be more precise on what I send in going forward.

[Frankish]

Originally Posted by yanks87

I too think the days of the $8-$12 grade are LONG gone, which makes me happy that I got all of my crappy cards in when I did. $20 per card is a threshold for me, but I am also cheap and sit on my cards, not looking for the quick flip or have a ton into them.

...I am fine with waiting, but will be more precise on what I send in going forward.

Totally agree.

One of the irritating aspects is that many of the cards I submitted in late 2020 or early 2021 have been graded to standards that I don't think applied in 2019 or earlier. Cards I would have sworn a PSA 7 came back a 5 or 5.5. Not a big deal, but since you mentioned getting all of the crappy cards graded, I wish I'd done it a year earlier!

Someone mentioned CSG earlier. For the time being at least, I am through with them. I submitted a couple of hundred cards (partly out of curiosity and partly because of the $8/card deal) and have been confused by those I've gotten back. The modern seem okay. The vintage cards are more problematic. If I took submissions as a whole, the grades seem fine. But on a card-by-card basis, I can't figure the grades out at all. In a way, I viewed the submissions as simply paying $8/card for slabs and an ID label, so am satisfied with that. But I don't see how I can rely on the grading if I can't understand it....

Hopefully SGC's business plan works out and they can grow in importance, even if slowly. Many of my vintage cards (tobacco, Japanese menko, 1940s Cuban) look so much better in their holders!

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

In terms of “Economy” based solely on Economy what do expect that price to be?

I think it will come back for sure, price I would be satisfied with would be around $25 per card for a 12-18 month turn around time.

The days of 12$ per card are in my mind over, I for one hope they are, that’s how we got to the situation we are in now. Thousands of cards not worth grading being sent in. I would think PSA doesn’t want or need a price structure of less then $25 at any level per card.

I’ll guess $25 for economy and $18-20 for value bulk subs…but those are more guesses than anything.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

SGC crushes it except for prices attained.

SGC is closing the gap though, slowly but surely. The longer PSA takes to reopen at reasonable prices, the more SGC will continue to grow and the greater market share they will grab hold of. There will be some pull back once PSA reopens of course, but by that time, I'd bet that SGC will have made a pretty significant impact on the market and people will realize that they are a legit (if not the best) grading company with respect to consistency and customer experience.

Originally Posted by Frankish

One of the irritating aspects is that many of the cards I submitted in late 2020 or early 2021 have been graded to standards that I don't think applied in 2019 or earlier. Cards I would have sworn a PSA 7 came back a 5 or 5.5. Not a big deal, but since you mentioned getting all of the crappy cards graded, I wish I'd done it a year earlier!

This is my biggest issue with PSA right now. I understand the wait times, but they have drastically moved the goal posts with respect to their grades over the past year. I have hundreds of cards that were submitted in 2019 all from the same two cases across multiple different submissions, then submitted again from those same two cases, the same cards of other players in mid 2020. Those cards were graded in 2021 and despite all being from the same case, my PSA 10 rates from 2019 were ~85% and in 2021 they were ~35%. My criteria did not change, their standards did. I've seen the same thing with a lot of mid-century vintage baseball submissions. Cards that used to be 4s and 5s are now 2s and 3s, and 8s are now 6s. And I'm not even comparing it to the earliest graded cards with the old flips that start with 0 or 1 serial numbers. I'm talking about cards graded just a few years ago. Someone on another forum was talking about how they cracked open 3 PSA 9 Ryne Sandberg rookie cards because they thought they had a pretty good chance at bumping up to a 10. They came back as two 7s and an 8. It's super frustrating. Their standards no longer even align with their own published standards on their website with the Mantle card photos.

Originally Posted by Frankish

Someone mentioned CSG earlier. For the time being at least, I am through with them. I submitted a couple of hundred cards (partly out of curiosity and partly because of the $8/card deal) and have been confused by those I've gotten back. The modern seem okay. The vintage cards are more problematic. If I took submissions as a whole, the grades seem fine. But on a card-by-card basis, I can't figure the grades out at all. In a way, I viewed the submissions as simply paying $8/card for slabs and an ID label, so am satisfied with that. But I don't see how I can rely on the grading if I can't understand it....

Ya, I was excited for CSG at first. I love the look of their slabs. They feel great in hand and are crystal clear. But they've been super disappointing since they launched. They really dropped the ball. SGC has been the clear winner of 2021 for me.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Thanks for all the responses, but no knowledge on what PSA will do.

I called PSA as well, but they couldn't give me any information. I will just wait and see.

If you were hoping for some inside information or something, you are almost certainly not going to get it. They keep these decisions very tight lipped. When they shut down back in March, it was a shock to nearly everyone working at PSA, including executives. The best we can do is speculate. Sometimes Nat Turner gives subtle hints in interviews, but that's about as close as you're likely to get.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I was excited for CSG at first. I love the look of their slabs. They feel great in hand and are crystal clear. But they've been super disappointing since they launched. They really dropped the ball.

What specifically about CSG has disappointed you?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't believe that long-time bulk submitters have some sort of "back door" access to lower tiered bulk grading services. That news would leak pretty quickly and wouldn't be too difficult to track down. It would also be a huge PR blow to PSA's brand if some submitters were still allowed to submit while others weren't. I think the likelihood of this currently happening is extremely low. It just wouldn't be in PSA's best interest.

Wow once again you could not be more wrong. PSA is still pumping out subs in a timely manner and at discounted rates for at least a few of the auction houses. Lots of freshly graded items that these AHs have not been paying $300 per card to have graded. They are also still taking care of their higher volume submitters.

PSA shakes off every bad PR blow they have created for themselves.

[53toppscollector]

A couple more random thoughts:

* I do think PSA gives slightly discounted rates to bulk/group submitters. I don't think its a drastic discount, but I do think they get a discounted rate, or at least they did back when Economy was open

* If PSA doesn't eventually offer any kind of bulk/value pricing, ie, their lowest service level settles around $50-75, I think it could create an interesting dynamic in the hobby. SGC may become the go-to TPG for base cards, because while you aren't going to pay $75 to grade a base card, you might pay $30, especially if your game is based on volume and turning/burning quickly. So PSA could solidify everything above the base tier, where if you have a card that is worth $150+, you will opt to send to PSA at the $50-75 level. Anything under $100, you will send to SGC.

* This could create obvious ripple effects, because if SGC gets flooded with cards, which could happen if PSA doesn't open a sub-$75 service level in the next year, then you are paying $30 and looking at 3+ month turnaround times because of backlog.

* I know that money changes everything, but Nat Turner has talked a good game about the importance of the set registry to him and to PSA. Their registry is miles ahead of any other TPG. But at $50 per card, you are basically killing the set registry. Grading $2 commons or junk wax inserts for $50 just doesn't make sense at all. And I can't imagine that even the most competitive set registry participants, even if they have the money to burn, will be eager to pay $50 per card to grade hundreds of commons. Given where we are TODAY, it seems impossible to imagine a $10 service level ever coming back. I'm just not sure how the registry survives without it

* This isn't breaking news or anything, just something I thought of this morning, but it still blows my mind that PSA has established the dominance in the hobby that they have considering that a.) the first card they ever graded was trimmed and they didn't know it and b.) they still command such a huge premium over other TPGs despite not offering subgrades

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I used to get a discounted rate vs the general public. That ended as soon as Nat took over. I'm not a major player, so perhaps there were exceptions, all I know is I'm not one of them.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

What specifically about CSG has disappointed you?

I've been disappointed in their grading standards. Especially with regard to centering. I've seen so many cards that are perfectly centered on the front and have 48/52 L/R on the back get 9s as sub grades for centering. That's just ridiculous. And cards that are 46/54 getting 8s. I've also seen vintage cards that are clearly overgraded. Cards with creases getting 5s and even a 6 in one case. Gem Mint grades on modern cards are too tough with them. I've also been disappointed in their pricing strategy, wait times, and communication. Their marketing is almost non-existent. I also think they really dropped the ball with their flip. It's like they didn't ask any of their potential customer base whether or not they liked the flips. Those flips are almost universally hated throughout the hobby. That's such an easy problem to avoid, and they completely dropped the ball on it. It's also an important decision to get right. All they had to do was survey some collectors and they would have known to change it. I had a lot of high hopes for them at the beginning of the year. Being backed by CCG is a huge leg up on the competition from other new grading companies. But watching their slabs get passed over by people who prefer cards in HGA slabs? Ouch. That's extremely disappointing. HGA is just a complete clusterfuck of a grading company. If you're losing to them, you're doing something wrong.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Wow once again you could not be more wrong. PSA is still pumping out subs in a timely manner and at discounted rates for at least a few of the auction houses. Lots of freshly graded items that these AHs have not been paying $300 per card to have graded. They are also still taking care of their higher volume submitters.

PSA shakes off every bad PR blow they have created for themselves.

I'm happy to learn when I'm wrong. If you have evidence of your claim, feel free to share it. However, I question whether or not you read my claim carefully enough. Note, I said, "I don't believe that long-time bulk submitters have some sort of "back door" access to lower tiered bulk grading services." It wouldn't surprise me to learn that large submitters who have had arrangements for bulk submissions in place with PSA for many years are still receiving a discount on services that are currently open. What I am contesting is that I don't believe they have access to the lower-tiered bulk services which have been shut down (e.g., I don't think any individual or company, regardless of their history with PSA, is currently able to submit bulk modern orders for grading). If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means, share it. But I'd wager good money that you've been misinformed if you believe that.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I've been disappointed in their grading standards. Especially with regard to centering. I've seen so many cards that are perfectly centered on the front and have 48/52 L/R on the back get 9s as sub grades for centering. That's just ridiculous. And cards that are 46/54 getting 8s. I've also seen vintage cards that are clearly overgraded. Cards with creases getting 5s and even a 6 in one case. Gem Mint grades on modern cards are too tough with them. I've also been disappointed in their pricing strategy, wait times, and communication. Their marketing is almost non-existent. I also think they really dropped the ball with their flip. It's like they didn't ask any of their potential customer base whether or not they liked the flips. Those flips are almost universally hated throughout the hobby. That's such an easy problem to avoid, and they completely dropped the ball on it. It's also an important decision to get right. All they had to do was survey some collectors and they would have known to change it. I had a lot of high hopes for them at the beginning of the year. Being backed by CCG is a huge leg up on the competition from other new grading companies. But watching their slabs get passed over by people who prefer cards in HGA slabs? Ouch. That's extremely disappointing. HGA is just a complete clusterfuck of a grading company. If you're losing to them, you're doing something wrong.

I appreciate the reply and agree with most of what you wrote. I truly don't get the appeal of HGA. I am constantly seeing evidence of their incompetence, and their slabs look like something a high school student made in shop class.

[toledo_mudhen]

This has gotten to be just a bit ridiculous

I wont be spending $50 - $100 for almost anything that I have to grade in this lifetime.....

[Yoda]

If PSA's grading standards have toughened, and I believe this must be so from comments made, I wonder if a two-tier market might develop: one for those newly graded and released for good behavior and for those already circulating in the marketplace.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Yoda

If PSA's grading standards have toughened, and I believe this must be so from comments made, I wonder if a two-tier market might develop: one for those newly graded and released for good behavior and for those already circulating in the marketplace.

It's already happened to some extent. There was a PSA 9 Gretzky rookie that sold for $102k back in July that had one of the older labels with a generous grade, then a more recently graded 9 just sold for $204k last month. Same card, same grade, double the price. And the market on Gretzky hasn't otherwise moved. Both were in highly visible public auctions. Usually the differences aren't quite this stark, but people definitely pay attention to the card itself when determining how much they'll pay, particularly in vintage. But not always. I think some of the newer investor only types will just pay whatever for a label, and don't really know anything about the differences.

Edited to add: Note, the one that sold far "far below market value" was a PWCC auction.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

This has gotten to be just a bit ridiculous

I wont be spending $50 - $100 for almost anything that I have to grade in this lifetime.....

Me either Lonnie...I guess that is why my raw is the biggest it has ever been currently.