Mixed Series Boxes

[deweyinthehall]

This isn't the first time I've seen something like this, but it's the most recent.

This is a link to a popular card dealer's YouTube channel. Every few weeks he highlights the top sellers at prominent auctions around the country.

At about the 7 minute mark he showcases a 1966 unopened box which sold recently. If you watch for a few seconds, you'll see the box has a BBCE seal on the bottom that says it's a "series 2/3 box".

Were there boxes with mixed series packs? I'd seen a couple other boxes before like this - all from some year before 1973, and whether they were all BBCE sealed or not I can't say, but they all carried a designation indicating they were from 2 consecutive series.

Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiIYKy5FIXc

[Cliff Bowman]

I am going to guess it’s a created Frankenstein box that was filled with loose 2nd Series and 3rd Series packs to completely fill an empty box.

[deweyinthehall]

Which begs this question - when BBCE certifies a box are they merely certifying that each of the 24 packs are sealed and authentic, or are they vouching for the box being likewise?

I know nothing about how this works, so I am curious - am I getting anything different if I buy 24 certified packs or 1 certified box? Apparently not?

I would think they should provide some advisement to customer one way or the other.

[Kevvyg1026]

Recall that although Topps printed cards (e.g., series 2 was 110-196, series 3 was 197 to 283), the checklists reported series 1 as 1-88, series 2 as 89-176, etc.). So, if the box contained series 2 print cards, it would have cards from checklist series 2 and series 3.

Maybe that is what the writing on the box meant.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Recall that although Topps printed cards (e.g., series 2 was 110-196, series 3 was 197 to 283), the checklists reported series 1 as 1-88, series 2 as 89-176, etc.). So, if the box contained series 2 print cards, it would have cards from checklist series 2 and series 3.

Maybe that is what the writing on the box meant.

This makes sense all around. And you coined some excellent nomenclature: Checklist Series vs. Print Series.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Recall that although Topps printed cards (e.g., series 2 was 110-196, series 3 was 197 to 283), the checklists reported series 1 as 1-88, series 2 as 89-176, etc.). So, if the box contained series 2 print cards, it would have cards from checklist series 2 and series 3.

Maybe that is what the writing on the box meant.

Good grief, we know more than the authenticators know. If that's their reasoning for saying it's a 2nd/3rd Series box that's ridiculous.

[deweyinthehall]

I'm happy to take on the challenge of sending BBCE a question asking for an explanation.

Just so we're clear here - is everyone comfortable Topps would not have shipped a box containing packs from multiple 'print' series back in the day?

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Which begs this question - when BBCE certifies a box are they merely certifying that each of the 24 packs are sealed and authentic, or are they vouching for the box being likewise?

I know nothing about how this works, so I am curious - am I getting anything different if I buy 24 certified packs or 1 certified box? Apparently not?

I would think they should provide some advisement to customer one way or the other.

The former. Unless its FASC and labled as such, assume a Frankenstein box.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

I'm happy to take on the challenge of sending BBCE a question asking for an explanation.

Just so we're clear here - is everyone comfortable Topps would not have shipped a box containing packs from multiple 'print' series back in the day?

NO legit mixed series wax packs happened all the time

[quitcrab]

I had a 1968 pack with a first series card visible on the front and a second series card visible on the back.

[JollyElm]

I haven't watched the video, but have a thought...

Is it possible the "series 2/3 box" verbiage could be referring to the cards possibly being from EITHER Series 2 or Series 3??

Did they, perchance, have wax packs with the (exact?) same graphics/text on them across multiple series, so there would be no definitive way of telling which series a pack held??

I assume the most likely answer is a big, fat NO!!, but want to put it out there just in case.

[deweyinthehall]

Just sent an e-mail to BBCE. Will advise on any response received.

[deweyinthehall]

This just in from Steve Hart - note his comment about having access to all the uncut sheets from that era...I will ask him about that.
--------

Hello!

On this particular wax box, the packs themselves are mixed with series 2 and 3 cards inside the packs. We identified the cards showing on most of the tops and all of the backs. They had different combinations showing (series 2 top, series 3 back……Series 3 top, series 2 back, etc). So it is not a box of mixed packs from different series like you mentioned, but mixed series within the packs. Just like the 1965 Series 2/3/4 box that was in the auction before this.



Now, this doesn’t happen very often. Packs usually only contain one series. However, we have seen everything happen. So first of all, the packs are 100% untampered with and not resealed. That I can see for myself. However, we also have access to all the uncut sheets from these years. We know how the cards would have been inserted into the packs once the sheets were cut down. And these packs are all consistent with the exact card that should have come off the sheet on top of the pack, matched up perfectly with the exact card that should be showing on back. The same was for the 1965 Topps series 2/3/4 box. This is knowledge that only a few advanced collectors have and we wont share it with the public. If we did, then that would be one more thing the people who reseal packs would know to properly put the cards where they should be on the top and bottom of packs they make. Pretty good knowledge this group of people share with us!!



As far as if I am calling it a frankenbox or a real issued box, there really isn’t anyway to tell. Now these in particular Im about 99% sure are real boxes. However, since Topps didn’t wrap boxes or use any type of seal until the early 90’s, there is just no way to tell. Now most of the time I can see that some of the wrappers in a box are a slightly different shade of colors, which obviously makes it a built box. Or centering on the wrapping is different. But if someone was to remove a few packs and replace them with a few different packs when we get into the 1970’s, its sometimes nearly impossible to tell.



When it comes to cello boxes and rack boxes, it gets even tougher. There is just no way of knowing if it is an original box or a box that has had packs removed. So all we are saying is that the packs in the box are all unopened and untampered with, but cant say for sure it is the original packs.



When you see a box that we have labeled FASC (From a Sealed Case), this is the only way we know 100% that the box has never been handled. The only way to get this put on the label is that someone has to give me an originally factory sealed full case. And then I am the only one who can open the seal. We get people all the time who tell me “I opened the flaps just to see what was inside”. Well, that’s no good. I have to open it. Or when they ship it here and the seals bust open during shipping. Still no good. Case has to get to me 100% sealed and only I can open it.





Hope this helps. Thanks! Steve



Steve Hart-Owner

[toppcat]

Wowsers!

[JollyElm]

A Plausible Theory:

If these are truly 'real' packs, then maybe it was an overabundance of Series 2 stock in Duryea, PA, that made Topps decide to alleviate themselves of the glut by throwing those cards into the mix when creating the 'new' 3rd Series packs.

"Those stupid kids won't notice."

[deweyinthehall]

I've never dealt with BBCE or any other authenticators - so an innocent question:

How can they tell from a closed pack what the top and bottom cards are with such precision? I am staring at my own 2 1966 wrappers now and I'd be hard pressed to believe someone could tell the top card given the entire image is colored - even the baseball is gray.

Also, could they be franken-packs and perhaps he's wrong about them being untampered with?

It isn't scientific by any means, but I've watched a lot of pack breaks on YouTube and have NEVER seen a pack from one series contain a mix of cards. Or, could he be using Kevvy's "checklist series" rather than "print series" approach?

Again - no experience so just wondering....

[deweyinthehall]

I just sent a reply discussing the pursuit of both the 1967 and 1966 semis, just as examples, and asking Steve if he could share images.

I am not certain that, even knowing the arrangement of cards, one could predict the placement of cards in the packs - what do we make of this?

[Cliff Bowman]

Ugh, Kevin and I just recently finished what I consider the longest and most difficult series we have done yet (not including still unfinished series), 1966 4th series, I’ll be devastated if BBCE had that series the whole time and now shows it to us.

[deweyinthehall]

From BBCE in response to my request for sheet images:

Let me ask my friend if he will share those with me. I don’t actually have those on my computer and I would go to him if I needed help with that series. I know hes not a big fan of sharing this, but Ill see what I can do. Obviously, he doesn’t want them to end up in the wrong hands. I see resealed packs all day long and lots of times it’s the order of the cards that helps determine packs if I am on the fence. Thanks! Steve


-----
is he saying he pulls all the cards out to see the 'order of cards'? This would mean the packs are no longer 'sealed'?

Something is still confusing to me about all of this....

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

I just sent a reply discussing the pursuit of both the 1967 and 1966 semis, just as examples, and asking Steve if he could share images.

Other than possibly the exact placement of the rows on the second slit I am positive the 1967 6th Series is good to go, we need 1965 6th Series, 1966 6th Series, and ten cards on 1969 3rd Series.

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

From BBCE in response to my request for sheet images:

Let me ask my friend if he will share those with me. I don’t actually have those on my computer and I would go to him if I needed help with that series. I know hes not a big fan of sharing this, but Ill see what I can do. Obviously, he doesn’t want them to end up in the wrong hands. I see resealed packs all day long and lots of times it’s the order of the cards that helps determine packs if I am on the fence. Thanks! Steve

LOL I'm the friend he mentions and I've shared all the sheets with you conspiracy theorist.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by jmoran19

LOL I'm the friend he mentions and I've shared all the sheets with you conspiracy theorist.

I knew it! You’re holding back on us 1966 6th Series and 1969 3rd Series!

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by jmoran19

LOL I'm the friend he mentions and I've shared all the sheets with you conspiracy theorist.

Hey - just because the way the shadow of the flag falls against Buzz Aldrin's boots makes it clear the ambient light is coming through the upper windows on stage 7 at the Warner lot, does NOT mean I'm a conspiracy theorist!

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Hey - just because the way the shadow of the flag falls against Buzz Aldrin's boots makes it clear the ambient light is coming through the upper windows on stage 7 at the Warner lot, does NOT mean I'm a conspiracy theorist!

HAHAHA

And for those who may not know, I've been tracking the opening of pre 1977 packs for close to 30 years. As some also know, the order of the cards in the pack is not random, def. a pattern to it although it depends on the year/pack type etc. and is NOT 100% fool proof.

Packs with white or clear wrappers are easiest to see who's on top and bottom. Darker wax packs are much harder to tell who's showing on the top under the gum. And no, I won't be sharing any specifics.

John

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by jmoran19

HAHAHA

And for those who may not know, I've been tracking the opening of pre 1977 packs for close to 30 years. As some also know, the order of the cards in the pack is not random, def. a pattern to it although it depends on the year/pack type etc. and is NOT 100% fool proof.

Packs with white or clear wrappers are easiest to see who's on top and bottom. Darker wax packs are much harder to tell who's showing on the top under the gum. And no, I won't be sharing any specifics.

John

So just to sort of close this loop - do you have images of the various sheets from this era (at the moment the one that is gathering the most attention on these boards is 1966 6th), and can you share?

[Kevvyg1026]

As any of us who opened packs, rack packs, or 500 count boxes, can attest, the collation methods used often gave rise to the same run of cards being found.

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

So just to sort of close this loop - do you have images of the various sheets from this era (at the moment the one that is gathering the most attention on these boards is 1966 6th), and can you share?

I’ve shared them all with Kevin already.