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  #51  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Theory?
I suppose itís possible that whoever originally owned the black swamp cards had them in uncut sheets and may be hired out someone to cut them and maybe thatís how they got cut that way??

Yet as soon as I typed this I realize that doesnít make sense how does one account for there being so few Jennings cards?
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  #52  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:29 PM
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Perhaps a new thread should be started to discuss these cards? Are there known e98 uncut sheets??
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  #53  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
I suppose itís possible that whoever originally owned the black swamp cards had them in uncut sheets and may be hired out someone to cut them and maybe thatís how they got cut that way??

Yet as soon as I typed this I realize that doesnít make sense how does one account for there being so few Jennings cards?
Almost no Mathewsons, right?
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  #54  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:40 PM
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Almost no Mathewsons, right?
I believe so?
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  #55  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:49 PM
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Almost no Mathewsons, right?
Very few, if any, cards of Jennings, Lajoie, Mathewson, Tinker and Walsh.
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  #56  
Old 09-12-2019, 06:44 AM
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This.
Not sure why there were fewer of certain players but there is 0 doubt in my mind, and most other collectors, that the cards are real and authentic....and almost untouched. BTW the family members couldn't have been nicer. I met them at the National (with Heritage) when they were originally found.

The PWCC auction had some lower prices but we'll just have to see how it goes in the future. I imagine a lot of factors play into it and one of them is less bidders.

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I suppose it’s possible that whoever originally owned the black swamp cards had them in uncut sheets and may be hired out someone to cut them and maybe that’s how they got cut that way??

Yet as soon as I typed this I realize that doesn’t make sense how does one account for there being so few Jennings cards?
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  #57  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:46 AM
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How are the non-find E98s selling?
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  #58  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:50 AM
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The Blues, which none were in the BSF, have seen stronger prices over the last few years from what Iíve seen.


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  #59  
Old 10-23-2019, 09:52 PM
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You still thinking the next PSA 9 E98 Cobb doesn't bring close to $30k?

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40????? Not even close to 30. The only way that card reaches 40 is if the starting bid is 40 - and just one person pulls the trigger.
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  #60  
Old 10-25-2019, 10:21 AM
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I like red cards.
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  #61  
Old 10-29-2019, 09:58 AM
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No need to be an arse.
For the record, people who follow others around the forum giving them a hard time, usually end up never giving them (or anyone) a hard time on this forum anymore.

Concerning the original subject I will offer my same comment from before....

The PWCC auction had some lower prices but we'll just have to see how it goes in the future. I imagine a lot of factors play into it and one of them is less bidders.


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I like red cards.
.
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  #62  
Old 11-11-2019, 12:41 PM
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Reviving this thread to get your thoughts on the PWCC auction that ended last night. Namely, what did you think of the vintage offerings and final hammer prices in last night's auction?

I would loved to own the E92 Nadja Lajoie, which went cheap (40% less than the same card sold for 2008), but I am currently not bidding with PWCC.

I thought the two T206 Green Cobbs (PSA 4.5 and SGC 4.5) went cheap. I thought the M116 Blue Wagner, the T206 Lajoie and Wajo Portraits, and the T206 Matty PB, all went for about what they were worth. The one card I was watching that exceeded expectations was the T206 Tinker portrait PSA 6.

All-in-all, I thought the pre 1920-vintage offerings were relatively weak and I thought the prices were unremarkable, which is a good thing/sign.

Thoughts?
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  #63  
Old 11-11-2019, 12:55 PM
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A lot of bargains to be had. I'm waiting for REA fall results to indicate if we are seeing a cool off in pre war vintage. It could just be a seasonal thing.

Either way i'm always impressed with the monthly PWCC consignments.
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  #64  
Old 11-11-2019, 01:45 PM
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Default PWCC auction

I guess it depends what you were watching. A w517 Ruth psa 8 went for $5,555. Same card went for $1,503 in 2017.
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  #65  
Old 11-11-2019, 01:54 PM
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Well I just sold a raw one that might garner a 2 for $500+ so $1503 is definitely low for today's market.
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  #66  
Old 11-11-2019, 03:36 PM
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I guess it depends what you were watching.
No doubt. I only watch what I watch and I can only comment on those items. Thatís one of the reasons I request input from the board.
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  #67  
Old 11-11-2019, 03:41 PM
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Ryan, the Nadja Lajoie definitely went cheaper than it should. I put in a half-hearted bid hoping to get lucky, but held back because of what is coming up in REA, HA, and LOTG. Had this card been posted a month ago, I would have definitely bid more than what the final price.
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  #68  
Old 11-11-2019, 04:23 PM
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A signed 52t feller did 150$ about twice the going rate for a nice copy
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  #69  
Old 11-11-2019, 04:24 PM
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Kudos to Ryan for continuing not to patronize PWCC. When hobby leaders speak with their wallets, the message will be heard. Bravo!
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  #70  
Old 11-11-2019, 04:45 PM
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I had the Lajoie, Bender Cocoa and Clarke Pitts on my watch-list. I'm not a conscientious objector and would have bid if I thought I was getting a bargain. The auction season is getting ready to heat up for sure. Good luck, gang. Rob
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  #71  
Old 11-11-2019, 07:14 PM
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I thought the prices were pretty strong for the key cards like HOF big name 1950s rookies and Ruth etc..
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  #72  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:33 AM
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Jack, I appreciate the kind works (albeit overstated/misguided!).

I am not happy with PWCC or PSA, among others (PSA actually disgusts me most of all). And while I want neither to "go down", I do want them to make changes so that the hobby is more honest and accurate. Nobody changes without a catalyst. Perhaps these message boards and the awesome work that BODA is doing will be that catalyst; perhaps it will be this ongoing FBI investigation we hear about from time-to-time; perhaps it will be neither of these, but will be something else; or maybe there will be no changes because no catalyst is sufficient to force change. Who knows. All I know at this time is what I can control - my buying habits. And if enough of us speak with our wallets, perhaps we can collectively be a catalyst. So why not try?

I do think collectors' buying and selling habits are having a tangible effect on PWCC, at least with respect to pre-1920 vintage. I have found their last 3-4 auctions to be weak on 1920 and older, vintage offerings (especially T206), and I find the selling prices for the items they have offered to be weak. I believe this could be because less people are consigning with them and less people are bidding with them; I also think less people are shilling.

Please understand that I want very badly to start bidding with PWCC again -- historically they have great stuff and have been one of the best AHs for the cards I collect. But I will not bid with them until I am satisfied that they are more honest. And, I encourage everyone to act similarly toward anyone you believe has had a material role in perpetuating/encouraging the fraud and crime now being exposed . That is the least I/we can do.

Regarding PSA -- well that's a whole different story. I don't know how one collects and boycotts PSA. If I did that, I would have to pass on too many items, and considering that BVG is dogshit with vintage (yes, I said that -- Ryan Hotchkiss), and SGC has its skeletons and issues too, I might as well "hang'em up" if I cease collecting cards that happen to reside in PSA flips. And I don't want to give up collecting. I recognize that maybe that makes me a hypocrite. I struggle with this one.

Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 11-12-2019 at 06:34 AM.
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  #73  
Old 11-12-2019, 07:06 AM
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Well said, Ryan.
There is no way to not buy TPG graded cards if you are in our space and want really nice cards. So, I am just collecting things I am comfortable are not fraudulent. That means very few high grade pre war cards (never had many but really pass on them now.) will be getting my bids. When I see cards with micro borders in TPG holders I chuckle. Collect what you like and be careful, especially of cards in TPG holders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Jack, I appreciate the kind works (albeit overstated/misguided!).

I am not happy with PWCC or PSA, among others (PSA actually disgusts me most of all). And while I want neither to "go down", I do want them to make changes so that the hobby is more honest and accurate. Nobody changes without a catalyst. Perhaps these message boards and the awesome work that BODA is doing will be that catalyst; perhaps it will be this ongoing FBI investigation we hear about from time-to-time; perhaps it will be neither of these, but will be something else; or maybe there will be no changes because no catalyst is sufficient to force change. Who knows. All I know at this time is what I can control - my buying habits. And if enough of us speak with our wallets, perhaps we can collectively be a catalyst. So why not try?

I do think collectors' buying and selling habits are having a tangible effect on PWCC, at least with respect to pre-1920 vintage. I have found their last 3-4 auctions to be weak on 1920 and older, vintage offerings (especially T206), and I find the selling prices for the items they have offered to be weak. I believe this could be because less people are consigning with them and less people are bidding with them; I also think less people are shilling.

Please understand that I want very badly to start bidding with PWCC again -- historically they have great stuff and have been one of the best AHs for the cards I collect. But I will not bid with them until I am satisfied that they are more honest. And, I encourage everyone to act similarly toward anyone you believe has had a material role in perpetuating/encouraging the fraud and crime now being exposed . That is the least I/we can do.

Regarding PSA -- well that's a whole different story. I don't know how one collects and boycotts PSA. If I did that, I would have to pass on too many items, and considering that BVG is dogshit with vintage (yes, I said that -- Ryan Hotchkiss), and SGC has its skeletons and issues too, I might as well "hang'em up" if I cease collecting cards that happen to reside in PSA flips. And I don't want to give up collecting. I recognize that maybe that makes me a hypocrite. I struggle with this one.
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  #74  
Old 11-12-2019, 10:07 AM
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+1 with the well said Ryan. In order to continue collecting what I like, TPG has to be an option. I do believe there are a ton of unaltered cards out there to be had. I know my preference have morphed some. Not only the meteoric rise in prices on nice mid-grade, but this recent scandal has caused me to accept some more flaws I may not have in the past. Still lovin the nice fat bordered T206's like Leon's above.
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  #75  
Old 11-12-2019, 12:11 PM
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The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.
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  #76  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:17 PM
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Yup.... Bad cards in PSA slabs are now everywhere. PWCC is a very small chunk of it.
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  #77  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.
Great point Peter.
Not to mention all the card show dealers and BST forums. I imagine it's under the radar widespread and the best solution is to reset every slab out there.
Start a new TPG and do away with BGS, SGC and PSA like the days of GAI and PRO.

In 30 years we can rinse and repeat once the new process gets dirty again.
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  #78  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:33 PM
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I still think PWCC comes out of this stronger than ever. If the market is slowing overall then I get it. To say trend is isolated to PWCC would be too early to say.
I know there is a lot of focus and attention towards PWCC since they appear to be the most fluid and ground breaking AH service around. Go ahead bash on my opinion it's ok.
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  #79  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goudey77 View Post
Great point Peter.
Not to mention all the card show dealers and BST forums. I imagine it's under the radar widespread and the best solution is to reset every slab out there.
Start a new TPG and do away with BGS, SGC and PSA like the days of GAI and PRO.

In 30 years we can rinse and repeat once the new process gets dirty again.
Yeah it only we could do a Noah's Ark thing...
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  #80  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:13 PM
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Yes, the hobby is a mess, and itís hardly restricted to PWCC. But there are plenty of other threads to state and restate that obvious fact. This thread is about PWCC and their most recent auctions. Can we please keep the comments here restricted to that. Thank you
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  #81  
Old 11-12-2019, 02:39 PM
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Default pwcc auction Nov. 11

i was interested in the PWCC 57 Williams PSA 6.5 last night....it went for well over $600 (a solid 7 price)....clearly there was shill bidding going on, as the bidder with 98% activity with PWCC was high bidder....just dont trust his auctions, low bids or not.....Bruce Perry

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  #82  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.
Maybe, but I would maintain that there are few auction houses the size of PWCC that are actively participating in the altering of cards.
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  #83  
Old 12-05-2019, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LincolnVT View Post
I guess, I would agree with Ryan that the prices seemed low last night. I also think that Petes comment about the timing of the auction / people being tapped out has merit. As for the PSA 9 E98 Cobb, I think that card would have reached 35k plus in other auctions as they have been bringing nearly 40 in other major auctions recently. People consigning items should go where they can get the best price for their item. 1 + 1 still equals 2, right?
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You still thinking the next PSA 9 E98 Cobb doesn't bring close to $30k?
You suggested that the only reason the PSA 9 E98 Cobb sold for $20,900 in PWCC was because people don't bid in PWCC as much anymore. Well, tonight in Heritage a PSA 9 E98 Cobb sold for $19,200. The card is dead because they're a dime a dozen now as I had said.
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  #84  
Old 12-05-2019, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theuclakid View Post
i was interested in the PWCC 57 Williams PSA 6.5 last night....it went for well over $600 (a solid 7 price)....clearly there was shill bidding going on, as the bidder with 98% activity with PWCC was high bidder....just dont trust his auctions, low bids or not.....Bruce Perry
You mean the dead centered card with excellent eye appeal that out sold a 7 in the same auction? Yea clearly it was shilled. No one pays over vcp for centered cards, right?
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  #85  
Old 12-05-2019, 10:01 PM
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As to the rest of the current pwcc auction there seem to be more nice Cobb cards available compared to recent auctions. Maybe one guy consigned them all. Should be easy enough to compare prices to auctions ending this week at heritage and REA to see if the net54 boycott is hurting prices.
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  #86  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:01 AM
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Any Net54 boycott has to have a tremendous effect on auction results.

After all we are such a unified monolithic caucus where seldom is heard a disparaging word and every day is filled with sunshine and good will.
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  #87  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
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You mean the dead centered card with excellent eye appeal that out sold a 7 in the same auction? Yea clearly it was shilled. No one pays over vcp for centered cards, right?
I just got a record price for a 1958 Koufax PSA 4 simply because it was centered. I was shocked it brought that much. But everyone knows that of all 4 criteria, centering is boss.
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  #88  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 View Post
I just got a record price for a 1958 Koufax PSA 4 simply because it was centered. I was shocked it brought that much. But everyone knows that of all 4 criteria, centering is boss.
Apparently not everyone knows.
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  #89  
Old 12-07-2019, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Goudey77 View Post
I still think PWCC comes out of this stronger than ever. If the market is slowing overall then I get it. To say trend is isolated to PWCC would be too early to say.
I know there is a lot of focus and attention towards PWCC since they appear to be the most fluid and ground breaking AH service around. Go ahead bash on my opinion it's ok.
Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 12-07-2019 at 06:45 AM.
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  #90  
Old 12-07-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 View Post
Apparently not everyone knows.
Not everyone knows what?
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  #91  
Old 12-07-2019, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.
Your landlord analogy is perfect here. I know a few "Slum Lords" and they do 100% always come out on top. They have been making WAY more for a very long time because of the way they do business. The getting caught is just a minor bump in the big picture. In reality the landlords have it harder because they don't have a bunch of morons and idiots making excuses for them. Strangely they do have morons and idiots lining up to do business with them even though they know what they are getting into.

One other great thing with the scammers in cards is their "friends". I noticed at first everyone hated the card doctors. Then when names started coming out many of the same people switched their hate to PSA. Guess it sucks when you find out your "friend" is a bad guy.
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  #92  
Old 12-07-2019, 10:58 AM
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Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.
I agree with this. There's no shortage of other outlets who feature the same exact cards, with far less margin for error. And while PWCC may survive this (which remains to be seen, based on the severity of punishment from LE), I also believe their best days are behind them.
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  #93  
Old 12-07-2019, 11:39 AM
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Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.
If only there was one landlord ripping everyone off.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.
One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

PSA on the other hand, has very limited competition and unless another entrant stands up or SGC really steps up their game, that won't change. People have a lot of money on the line with the PSA entombed cards, and folks would lose a lot of money by moving from PSA.

I can see the scenario where PWCC takes a big hit but PSA keeps steam-rolling right along.
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  #95  
Old 12-07-2019, 01:09 PM
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Interesting to me how many 7 and 8s Goudeys and US Caramels and Cracker Jacks PWCC used to have compared to what they sell today. I would hate to look back 2 years and take a hard look at what they were selling back then. Every auction seemed to have 3 Gehrig Goudey 7s.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:15 PM
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One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

PSA on the other hand, has very limited competition and unless another entrant stands up or SGC really steps up their game, that won't change. People have a lot of money on the line with the PSA entombed cards, and folks would lose a lot of money by moving from PSA.

I can see the scenario where PWCC takes a big hit but PSA keeps steam-rolling right along.
Lots of people are enabling card doctors to bring their material to market.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-07-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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  #97  
Old 12-07-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

PSA on the other hand, has very limited competition and unless another entrant stands up or SGC really steps up their game, that won't change. People have a lot of money on the line with the PSA entombed cards, and folks would lose a lot of money by moving from PSA.

I can see the scenario where PWCC takes a big hit but PSA keeps steam-rolling right along.
Youíre spot on with your last part.

PSA is Teflon it doesnít matter if they grade bad cards or not. The cards keep coming in for their opinion.
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  #98  
Old 12-07-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 View Post
Not everyone knows what?
That centered cards go for a premium. It seems to confuse members every time. Some assume the sale was fake, or the auction shilled. Many turn out to be legitimate transactions from collectors who stepped up to obtain a nice looking card. Some even make a post defending their purchase.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:21 PM
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The only thing that CANT be doctored, is centering. I guess you can make it look better, but centered cards are ripe for doctors
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Old 12-07-2019, 04:10 PM
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The only thing that CANT be doctored, is centering. I guess you can make it look better, but centered cards are ripe for doctors
Centering is doctored ALL THE TIME. How many hundreds of the cards exposed on BO recently have one border trimmed, to emulate the other side? The doctors are hacking off large portions of the thicker border, simply to even them up.

PSA can't (or won't) catch it, even though the altered cards are undersized. Check out the Johnny Adams Jr. thread on Blowout for many examples of this process...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...333320&page=10

Last edited by perezfan; 12-07-2019 at 04:10 PM.
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