1889 engraved resin Harpers woodcut

[Runscott]

We discussed this many years ago (2003-4?) when I first acquired this piece, but just wondering if anyone has additional thoughts, as I plan on putting it on ebay in my next set of auctions.

It's a copy of "A Collegiate Game of Baseball", but it's on 1/4" thick resin, and it has the same characteristics as the actual print block that would have been used to print the original woodcuts (engravings in the surface at various depths). At the time that I bought mine, there was another being auctioned by the same auction house, both in 19th century original frames and both hand-colored. It's a gorgeous piece, but I've never seen the technique - however it was done would almost certainly have required the original print block.

At the time we last discussed it, one member (I can't remember who) said he had seen one sold in Europe at a souvenir shop. Not sure if he was joking. In any case, if it's a modern reproduction, I'd sure like to hear from someone who has a theory as to the process used, as I've never seen anything like it, before or since, of any subject.

[khkco4bls]

Here is my orig. harpers of yours. Also my resin piece. Even though there copies i think there great.

[D. Bergin]

Whoever colored that top piece did a great job. It has almost a 3D look to it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Whoever colored that top piece did a great job. It has almost a 3D look to it.

My scans are actually misleading. By definition, this really is 3-D, but it's 3-D like a printer's block would be - depth so that ink is set on the paper in the appropriate amounts.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by khkco4bls

Here is my orig. harpers of yours. Also my resin piece. Even though there copies i think there great.

I think your colored piece was created using a different process from mine. I've seen two like yours - it's a smooth resin or plastic with the description below it, right?

[william_9]

My guess would be that the top image is laser etched/engraved onto a black painted panel and hand colored.

[steve B]

The dot patterns showing in the closeup would lead me to think that a mask of some sort was printed onto a plate that was then etched and the resin items were cast from that. There's a few other ways of doing it, but that's the easiest way to make a number of them. If the lines are very deep then it may have been done some other way.

Laser engraving wouldn't typically show the dot pattern unless you wanted it to. And the actual woodcut woudn't have it at all.

Detailed woodcuts were usually done on maple endgrain. The parts cut away don't print, so the depth of cut isn't important. (It is in engraving, the process used for most US stamps well into the 1970's. )

I've tried a couple woodcuts from my carpentry scraps, the material is great to work with. Making something come out really nice is quite challenging though and whoever did the Harpers stuff was very impressive.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

The dot patterns showing in the closeup would lead me to think that a mask of some sort was printed onto a plate that was then etched and the resin items were cast from that. There's a few other ways of doing it, but that's the easiest way to make a number of them. If the lines are very deep then it may have been done some other way.

Laser engraving wouldn't typically show the dot pattern unless you wanted it to. And the actual woodcut woudn't have it at all.

Detailed woodcuts were usually done on maple endgrain. The parts cut away don't print, so the depth of cut isn't important. (It is in engraving, the process used for most US stamps well into the 1970's. )

I've tried a couple woodcuts from my carpentry scraps, the material is great to work with. Making something come out really nice is quite challenging though and whoever did the Harpers stuff was very impressive.

Steve B

The scan is misleading - there is no dot pattern. As far as the depth of the etchings, it only varies in areas like hair, much like you see on printers blocks. It really looks like a huge printers block that has been painted a little.

[steve B]

Interesting. That puts my idea right out. Maybe laser etching was it. A mold could be made that way too, or even hand done. I've seen some impressive cast resin sculpture based on hand carved originals.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

Interesting. That puts my idea right out. Maybe laser etching was it. A mold could be made that way too, or even hand done. I've seen some impressive cast resin sculpture based on hand carved originals.

Steve B

It looks like the only way I will solve this mystery is by having someone like you personally inspect it. I did show this to a board member who is a vintage photography expert, and he didn't know what to make of it. Resin like this was certainly available in the 1890's, and the technique for creating it was as well, but I haven't seen vintage examples.

In addition, I'm not sure that there is any modern technique still in use that could duplicate it. All I need is to find a single modern example and I can at least consider the possibility that it's modern. But as I said, we discussed this six years ago with no resolution, and I haven't seen additional examples surface - normally, modern reproductions would be created with profit in mind, so you'd see more than two over a six-year period.

[steve B]

When I'm thinking "modern" I'm usually thinking post WWII.

I'm not sure about how they'd price something like that, but the new cast resin stuff I've seen with that level of detail is smallish buildings based on some of the Terry Pratchett books. They usually made less than 100 of each and they're pretty pricy, I'm thinking around 2-300 each.

If the 3-D versions of the woodcuts were done as collectors art items they could have been limited production and expensive.

Steve B

[scgaynor]

Scott, did you buy this from me? I sold it years ago.

At any rate, in my opinion it is not new, but it is not old (19th century) either. I don't know how it was produced, but it is a unique and neat display piece.

Scott

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by scgaynor

Scott, did you buy this from me? I sold it years ago.

At any rate, in my opinion it is not new, but it is not old (19th century) either. I don't know how it was produced, but it is a unique and neat display piece.

Scott

Hi Scott. It's hard to say - my memory is pretty horrible, but I thought it was someone else. It was 7-9 years ago and I believe I paid $40-60 for it. There were two sold right around the same time, and they did come from the Northeast - both were in very similar (but not exact) old frames. I called the auction house to ask about them, and the response I got led me to believe that they were genuinely old, but 'old' as in not brand new. They didn't know much else about them.

Mine was not '1800s' dirty, but showed genuine age. In other words, not a modern attempt at trying to produce something that would be viewed as rare and valuable. Very perplexing.

[drc]

Scott F., I believe you won it in Cowan's of Cincinnati.

How's that for a memory? I can remember where others won their stuff.

Scott and I live about 7 miles apart, and he showed it to me once.

[aquarius31]

Guys, I did not see the original picture from Scott on the resin Harper piece but just picked this one up and curious to see if it's the same one.

I am avid woodcut collector so this piece really caught my attention. It has no dot patterns under magnification and presents like one would expect a woodcut block to present with all the intricate details under magnification. That said, it is not wood and the dimensions are not in line with the 1889 Harper's woodcut so would be hard to believe that it came from the original woodblock.

It appears to be some sort of metal and the color seems to have been applied by hand (best guess based on what I see under magnification). Not sure if this helps or adds more question to this item but would love to get any additional thoughts.

I have a feeling that I could learn a lot more if I took it out of the frame to see what was on the back but don't want to do that just yet.

[khkco4bls]

guys, here is my orig. woodcut(black and white ) and also the same resin type piece made into a lighted shadow box.

[aquarius31]

Very cool...really like the coloring and framing on your piece. Do you have any additional information on how it was produced and was there any additional info on the back prior to getting it framed?

[khkco4bls]

no not that i remember. I njust loved the look of them. don't know who is producing them. I would also like more info.

[martindl]

Scott,
When you say 'resin', what kind of resin is it? The hard stuff, likely with bubbles like you see today, soft to the touch like 'Ivorex' (almost feels like soap), tough (tap it) but almost brittle, etc.

And how heavy is it? Modern resin is discernibly heavier than earlier kinds.

[khkco4bls]

its like a hard plastic type material. Not soft.

[aquarius31]

Originally Posted by khkco4bls

its like a hard plastic type material. Not soft.

Agreed...certainly not soft. It definitely is heavier (compared to what I would expect it to be before I pick it up) and has texture and different depths in certain locations.

[Runscott]

I still have mine. I received it in a late 1800's frame that fit it perfectly, but there was no glass. The other one I saw also came in a late 1800's frame of similar, but different, design. Neither cost much, so there wasn't any intent to scam.

The detail is such that it had to have been produced either from a woodcut or whatever was used to create the original woodcuts - I lean toward the latter because the detail is perfect and because I haven't seen such resin examples of other woodcuts. The technique used to transfer the original design to etched resin is a mystery. Definitely hand-painted - the colors were even slightly different in the two examples - similar to the hand-painted paper woodcuts you sometimes find (it was popular in the 1800's to hand paint these, but you rarely see 'heavy' painting).

You would think this mystery would be solved by now - very perplexing.

[william_9]

I would imagine it's an acid etch process. It's a pretty simple process that would make sense in a modern short run with some hand detailing.

[aquarius31]

Originally Posted by william_9

I would imagine it's an acid etch process. It's a pretty simple process that would make sense in a modern short run with some hand detailing.

Hi William, great to hear from you...hope all is well! I did a quick search on the acid etch process and it sounds like it is quite possible that this is in fact how these pieces were made. While I don't have a resin example to compare to, my piece certainly feels more like metal than plastic or some other substance. Also, the dimensions of it are smaller than the original Harper's woodcut so would be difficult for me to justify that it is derived from the original woodblock. It appears that someone could photocopy the image onto transfer paper and then place the paper directly onto the steel surface followed by immersion into an acid bath. It could then be hand-colored to give it a more unique look.

I'm very tempted to pull this out of the frame to see if there's any additional information but will likely wait until I'm at the frame shop in a few weeks for something else. Thanks.

George

[aquarius31]

Hi All,
I went to the frame shop today and brought the Harper's resin etch (or whatever it is) with me. We removed the actual etch from the frame and below are the results. It was cut to the shape of the frame and measures ~8"x10." It has a somewhat sweet smell to it which I don't know how to explain but it was certainly there. The piece itself felt like plastic and the framer told me he recognized it as an older form of plastic called bakelite. There were no markings on the backside and it did look like it had some age to it although to my untrained eye I'm not sure how old it is. The framer said that this approach was popular in the 1930's.

Now I just noticed something very interesting on the etch that would not have been obvious in the frame. On the bottom left there is some sort of signature "FER" followed by "1889" then "WP Snyder." In the original woodcut below you will see that only "WP Snyder" is visible but that could be caused by the limitations on dimension of the woodblock as applied to the paper to create the woodcut.

http://www.sportsartifacts.com/memharperscollege.JPG

To make things even more confusing, I noticed that in Kevin's woodcut that there is "1889" after "WP Snyder." I highly doubt that they would have printed two different variations of this woodcut but I guess it's possible.

I guess I'm even more baffled now as to the process and timeframe given above information but at least wanted to share the observations from this particular piece.

George

[thecatspajamas]

My understanding is that if it's bakelite, it should have a "formaldehyde" smell when heated (dipped in warm water or sometimes by rubbing/friction heat from your finger). If it has a sweet smell, it is most likely resin.

Also (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), isn't bakelite usually carved rather than etched?

[1880nonsports]

it's bakelite.

[aquarius31]

Guys, thanks for the information. It definitely has a sweet smell to it but not the one you get from mom's apple pie...it's that kind of smell that makes you want to gag and as a result I'm getting that baby framed back up quickly

[drcy]

Bakelite only comes in dark colors. Perhaps its catalin, which is a very close cousin. Bakelite and catalin are made from the same base chemicals, but catalin can come in bright colors. Due to the shared chemicals, they have the same smell under hot water.

Both are vintage plastics but not from the 1800s.