Player-Managers

[Snapolit1]

Reading through the great book "Cracker Jack Collection: Baseball's Prized Players," it's striking how many good players in the deadball era served as Player-Managers for some part of their careers. Wonder if we will ever see another Player-Manager. More complicated today than ever, but some supremely popular/respected guy like Jeter probably could have pulled it off. Would be great to see.

[Jim65]

Pete Rose was the last, correct?

I remember when Joe Torre was player/manager of the Mets.

[mrreality68]

Yes Pete Rose Was the last.

I believe it was used for 2 primary reasons.

1. 1 player/manager is one salary vs 2 salary’s so the teams save money
2. A way to incentivize the player to play on your team so attracting the player and also as an attendance draw because usually the player manager was a popular player

The major drawer back to this is as the player can no longer play but perhaps keeps themselves active as their skills decline or ties up a roster spot

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Pete Rose was the last, correct?

I remember when Joe Torre was player/manager of the Mets.

Wow, forgot about both of them.

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Pete Rose was the first name that came to my mind when I saw the title of your post. Probably because 1987 Topps was my favorite set as a kid.

rose.jpg

[GeoPoto]

Washington had some sucess with it:

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1643828728
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1643828736

[Exhibitman]

I thought of Frank Robinson. He was the first one I became aware of.

[ALBB]

and Don Kessinger..I recall ??

[egri]

Joe Torre let Roger Clemens manage his last start in 2003 because it looked like he was going to retire that year, but it wasn't a regular thing.

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Reading through the great book "Cracker Jack Collection: Baseball's Prized Players," it's striking how many good players in the deadball era served as Player-Managers for some part of their careers. Wonder if we will ever see another Player-Manager. More complicated today than ever, but some supremely popular/respected guy like Jeter probably could have pulled it off. Would be great to see.

At least 25% (36+) of the 1914 Cracker Jack Ballplayers were player-managers

Including some of the really big names: Cobb, Mathewson, Lajoie, Speaker and Wagner

[GasHouseGang]

Cobb was the one I thought of that probably helped attract talent to the club.

[cgjackson222]

Lou Boudreau won MVP while a player-manager in 1948 for the World Series winning Cleveland Indians. Not sure which other player-managers have won MVP.

[Seven]

Hornsby and Cochrane were both player-managers I believe.

I think Gehrig had the talent and mind for it as well, but was probably too much of a nice guy. His leadership qualities were apparently second to none.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Yes Pete Rose Was the last.

I believe it was used for 2 primary reasons.

1. 1 player/manager is one salary vs 2 salary’s so the teams save money
2. A way to incentivize the player to play on your team so attracting the player and also as an attendance draw because usually the player manager was a popular player

The major drawer back to this is as the player can no longer play but perhaps keeps themselves active as their skills decline or ties up a roster spot

Jeff,

You hit the nail on the head as to the main "three" reasons for having player-managers. Your Reason #2 is actually two separate reasons, with the box office draw likely being the bigger reason. Figures at the end of the day it would be mostly about the money, right? And there are probably a lot more MLB player-managers than any of you ever thought or remember.

The first ever recognized MLB player-manager was John Clapp with the Middleton Mansfields, all the way back in 1872. In fact, starting with Clapp in 1872, there has continuously been at least one player-manager every single year in the majors through 1955. And yes, many of them were well known star players. For example, there were 11 different players inducted into the baseball HOF in it's first two initial election years. And of the first 11 players, 9 of them were MLB player-managers at some point in their careers, with the two notable exceptions being Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson. As a matter of fact, a total of 63 HOFers have been MLB player-managers at some point. But before you go assuming it is all about the star power, I'll have you know there are an additional 159 non-HOFers (which includes Pete Rose and Hal Chase) who also served as MLB player-managers. So it is more so not about just the superstar players after all.

And as earlier posted, Pete Rose in 1984-86 was indeed the last player-manager (for the Reds) ever in the majors. However, subsequent to Rose's tenure, there were talks/rumors about the likes of Paul Molitor, Barry Larkin, and Paul Konerko undertaking the task of player-manager, but no one pulled the trigger. Don't know if we'll ever see another player-manager in the majors, ever again. Based on what happened with the Astro's, it potentially gives a team an extra an person/player to be punished by MLB before it gets to the players. And teams today don't really worry about having enough to pay a manager.

Here's a good question. Without looking it up, of the 222 total number of player-managers they've had in the major leagues, what position has produced the most player-managers, and what position has produced the least? And the position choices are: P C 1B 2B SS 3B OF

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Originally Posted by BobC

Jeff,


Here's a good question. Without looking it up, of the 222 total number of player-managers they've had in the major leagues, what position has produced the most player-managers, and what position has produced the least? And the position choices are: P C 1B 2B SS 3B OF

I'll play! Without looking it up, I'll go with gut feel...in order from most to least, I would guess the positions that produced the most player managers are:

1B - Most
C
3B
SS
2B
OF
P - Least

[mrreality68]

Wow did not even realize that there was over 200 player managers.

Position wise my guess

Outfield most
1st base
Short stop
2nd base
Catcher
3rd base
Pitcher. Least

[Schlesinj]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I thought of Frank Robinson. He was the first one I became aware of.

I believe listening to the Black Diamonds podcast he received a significantly lower offer to serve as both roles with the team. He was initially pissed, but he felt a higher value of accepting the offer to make a change as he felt if he declined it would hinder an opportunity for African American players in the future to serve as manager.

[Schlesinj]

Oscar Charleston served as player manager toward the backend of his career. I believe he said he would only play himself when he has the opportunity with the bases load or when RBI situations as he really only wanted to serve as manager at the time.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire

I'll play! Without looking it up, I'll go with gut feel...in order from most to least, I would guess the positions that produced the most player managers are:

1B - Most
C
3B
SS
2B
OF
P - Least

John,

You've got the least one correct. Pitchers bring up the rear, with only 19 of the 222 player-managers coming from the pitching ranks. Top position is not 1st base though, they actually came in 3rd highest with 33 player-managers.

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by BobC

John,

You've got the least one correct. Pitchers bring up the rear, with only 19 of the 222 player-managers coming from the pitching ranks. Top position is not 1st base though, they actually came in 3rd highest with 33 player-managers.

OF has to have the most (sheer numbers game OF comprises 3 positions so)

P has the least

[BuzzD]

Clark Griffith was early Yankees player-manager

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Wow did not even realize that there was over 200 player managers.

Position wise my guess

Outfield most
1st base
Short stop
2nd base
Catcher
3rd base
Pitcher. Least

Jeff,

You're on a roll today, and have the top and lowest spots on the money. Outfielders maybe have a bit of an unfair advantage in that the three OF positions are all considered as one group/position. Here's the list by position, and number of player-managers for each position.

OF - 55
C - 35
1B - 33
2B - 31
SS - 28
3B - 21
P - 19

I originally thought catchers might be at the top, given how much knowledge and respect they would always seem to get attributed with for calling games and handling pitching staffs. And if we were able to break down the OF into three separate positions (LF, CF, RF), they very well could end up in that top spot after all.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

I believe listening to the Black Diamonds podcast he received a significantly lower offer to serve as both roles with the team. He was initially pissed, but he felt a higher value of accepting the offer to make a change as he felt if he declined it would hinder an opportunity for African American players in the future to serve as manager.

I believe he was the first ever black manager in the majors (and no,I am not going back and counting the Negro leagues in this). And Cleveland makes sense, as they were right behind the Dodgers and Jackie Robinson by just three months in being the first team to integrate the American League with Larry Doby, And Cleveland was also the first major US city to elect a black mayor, Carl Stokes, in November of 1967. (And sorry, I don't consider Gary, Indiana a "major" US city.)

After he took over as the Indian's skipper, apparently he and starting pitcher Gaylord Perry did not quite see eye-to-eye on things.

[sycks22]

I realize it's hockey, but Reg Dunlop might be the best player/coach of all time. They were the toughest team in the federal league.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

Oscar Charleston served as player manager toward the backend of his career. I believe he said he would only play himself when he has the opportunity with the bases load or when RBI situations as he really only wanted to serve as manager at the time.

That may be, but he (nor any other Negro League player-managers) is not being counted in the 222 MLB player-manager's list I've mentioned. I understand that MLB baseball has recently decided to count Negro League stats as MLB stats in an attempt to try and make up in some way for the segregation that previously existed. However, despite those that feel that MLB, pre-integration, was actually playing in a watered-down league talent-wise because of the absence of black players, I look at the very low percentage of blacks playing in MLB still today, and feel that as such, the Negro Leagues were likely way more watered down than the pre-integration white major leagues were. And even though there were players with some obvious major league level talent playing in the Negro Leagues, I feel they may have benefited a lot more stat-wise from playing in what was possibly an overall much less talented league than their white counterparts. And as such, I'm not so sure that simply bringing across the Negro League stats that they cherry picked to count is fair and proper to the white players that have been pushed down or off all-time MLB stat and leaderboard lists.

Using that same logic, I'm sure there were Japanese/Asian players, as well as Cuban/Latin American players, back in the early days before baseball was integrated that had the talent to play in the majors, but didn't/couldn't for any number of reasons along with bias and possible discrimination. So why isn't major league baseball going back and cherry picking stats in those leagues to consider as comparable to major league baseball stats, and add them in as well, just like they did with Negro League stats??? Seems quite arbitrary to me that MLB decided to add the stats for only the one group/league.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by BobC

That may be, but he (nor any other Negro League player-managers) is not being counted in the 222 MLB player-manager's list I've mentioned. I understand that MLB baseball has recently decided to count Negro League stats as MLB stats in an attempt to try and make up in some way for the segregation that previously existed. However, despite those that feel that MLB, pre-integration, was actually playing in a watered-down league talent-wise because of the absence of black players, I look at the very low percentage of blacks playing in MLB still today, and feel that as such, the Negro Leagues were likely way more watered down than the pre-integration white major leagues were. And even though there were players with some obvious major league level talent playing in the Negro Leagues, I feel they may have benefited a lot more stat-wise from playing in what was possibly an overall much less talented league than their white counterparts. And as such, I'm not so sure that simply bringing across the Negro League stats that they cherry picked to count is fair and proper to the white players that have been pushed down or off all-time MLB stat and leaderboard lists.

Using that same logic, I'm sure there were Japanese/Asian players, as well as Cuban/Latin American players, back in the early days before baseball was integrated that had the talent to play in the majors, but didn't/couldn't for any number of reasons along with bias and possible discrimination. So why isn't major league baseball going back and cherry picking stats in those leagues to consider as comparable to major league baseball stats, and add them in as well, just like they did with Negro League stats??? Seems quite arbitrary to me that MLB decided to add the stats for only the one group/league.

I think the fact that the Negro Leagues were in the United States and there is more continuity with players that played in both the Negro Leagues and MLB is a main reason to consider them as part of the MLB. Can't say that for leagues in Japan, etc.

As you point out, there were Asian and Latino players that were capable of playing in MLB but didn't have the opprtunity at the time. But that seems to bolster the argument that an all-white league was less talented than it would have been, and stats may been artificially inflated compared to what they would have been with more competition.

The relative lack of black MLB players today may be more a function of the relative popularity of other sports like football and basketball rather than a sign that Negro League players would not have performed well in the MLB

[BobC]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I think the fact that the Negro Leagues were in the United States and there is more continuity with players that played in both the Negro Leagues and MLB is a main reason to consider them as part of the MLB. Can't say that for leagues in Japan, etc.

As you point out, there were Asian and Latin players that were capable of playing in MLB but didn't have the opprtunity at the time. But that seems to bolster the argument that an all-white league was less talented than it would have been, and stats may been artificially inflated compared to what they would have been with more competition.

The relative lack of black MLB players today may be more a function of the relative popularity of other sports like football and basketball rather than a sign that Negro League players would not have performed well in the MLB

NO!

You're saying there was more continuity with blacks that played in the Negro Leagues and then in MLB, so that's why it makes sense to include their Negro League stats as MLB stats? Okay, but then why include the stats of ALL Negro League players that never made it into the majors, or were done playing before MLB was integrated?

I can use the same argument for someone like Ichiro. He played in the Japanese leagues before joining MLB. So why shouldn't his Japanese League stats count as major league stats as well then? Or are you saying that black athletes are so much better athletes/ballplayers than Japanese ballplayers that those blacks playing in the Negro Leagues were all playing at a major league level and therefore deserve to have their stats listed right beside those of MLB, but the Japanese leagues aren't that good and don't play at a major league level, let alone the same level as the blacks in the Negro Leagues, and therefore their stats don't get counted as major league stats? And the same goes for all the Latin American players that played in other leagues before joining MLB as well.

MLB stats should solely be for play that was in what was defined as the major leagues, period! They do not by definition include stats in other or the minor leagues. The way I see it, the Negro Leagues were basically nothing more than a minor league that eventually fed players to MLB. Just like the PCL, which was basically the West coast version of MLB, till the Giants and Dodgers moved out there in '57. Yet you don't see or hear anyone pushing to have PCL stats included as MLB stats either. So again, why just add the Negro League stats to MLB stats, but no stats from any other leagues?

In the end, it probably all comes down to MLB being politically correct and kissing ass in light of the political and racial climate of today, and looking to appease a portion of their customer base. At the end of the day, it always seems to just be about the money!

[Snapolit1]

If anyone wants to understand the Negro Leagues better, particular the issue of how the Negro Leagues compared to the Major Leagues, I'd commend this short book to you. A series of SABR essays. I'll say the belated recognition of the Negro Leagues it's hardly about political correctness.

https://www.amazon.com/Negro-Leagues...s%2C77&sr=8-10

[Yoda]

For all of his accomplishments on the Diamond and Dugout, not to mention his achievements promoting African American rights, Frank Robinson's cards remain sorely undervalued. His '57 Topps card has been creeping up but should be worth a lot more. It is a great card from a great set.
I recall having breakfast at the Cleveland Nat'l a few years ago when who should slid into the booth next to me but Frank and Mrs. Robinson. While I stared at my Special K, I couldn't help but overhear the Robinsons' conversation which was whether Frank should have the oatmeal or egg white omelet. Then a procession of fans, ex major leaguers, vip's, etc. made its way to the Robinsons' table to pay homage. I left, but have always wondered whether the Robinsons ever got their breakfast.

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Originally Posted by BobC

John,

You've got the least one correct. Pitchers bring up the rear, with only 19 of the 222 player-managers coming from the pitching ranks. Top position is not 1st base though, they actually came in 3rd highest with 33 player-managers.

OK, great. I went with my gut and got 1 out 7 positions correct. This is one (of MANY) reasons I don't bet on sports

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If anyone wants to understand the Negro Leagues better, particular the issue of how the Negro Leagues compared to the Major Leagues, I'd commend this short book to you. A series of SABR essays. I'll say the belated recognition of the Negro Leagues it's hardly about political correctness.

https://www.amazon.com/Negro-Leagues...s%2C77&sr=8-10

Steve,

They authorized SEVEN different Negro Leagues that existed between 1920-48 as now supposedly being on par with the major leagues we know. This also added approximately 3,400 black players to the list of what are now considered as major league ballplayers. Now according to Baseball Almanac, as of February 3, 2022 there have been exactly 19,969 recognized major league ballplayers since 1876, when the National League was recognized. And in quickly looking at their list, it appears Baseball Almanac does not yet include any of the Negro League players who did not eventually make it into the majors as we know them today. And according to Wikipedia (and yes I know this is not infallible info, but is the best I could find), there were 45 black players listed as having played in the Negro Leagues in 1948 (the last year supposedly through through which Negro League stats are now considered major league stats) or earlier, that also ended up in the majors. I mention this so these players don't get double counted, but that is likely a moot point as I couldn't find a more exact figure than the approximate 3,400 number for how many Negro League players were added to the major league stat rolls. So lets say the number of black players added to the major league stats strictly from Negro League careers is 3,355 (3,400 - 45) then. And currently the US population is approximately 14% black, which is probably about the highest it has ever been, so a good percentage to use for my purposes.

So here's my point. In the 145 year history of MLB there have only been 19,969 recognized major league players, while in the 28 year history of the Negro Leagues we are now saying there were 3,355 recently added major league caliber players. Yet blacks, at most, only account for about 14% of our overall population. Do you see the potential statistical anomaly here? How can so many black ballplayers all be so good as to merit major league level ability when they represent such a small portion of the overall population? I am not saying there weren't great black ballplayers that deserved to be in the majors, just not that many. The result of which would be that the overall player talent on Negro League teams was maybe a lot less than many would fantasize and have you believe. And if that is the case, the better black players got to pad their stats by playing against much less overall talented players, which isn't really a true and fair comparison then to stats put up by mainstream MLB players.

Why not include PCL stats as major league level stats as well then? Or explain why after baseball's integration the Negro Leagues became true minor league teams to the major leagues. People often disparage old white ballplayers and their stats as overstated because they didn't play against the great black players of their time. But that argument goes both ways, and I can see looking at overall numbers and percentages that it actually may be the black ballplayers who got the even bigger statistical boosts by not having to play against whites. But isn't it funny how you never seem to hear anyone tout that thinking?

So tell me again how adding all those Negro League stats as full-blown major league stats isn't possibly an attempt to appease others and remain in the overall good graces of as much of the public as possible by doing the politically correct thing. The timing alone of adding all these Negro League stats, in lieu of all the things going on in our society today, make the true intentions behind their inclusion suspect.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire

OK, great. I went with my gut and got 1 out 7 positions correct. This is one (of MANY) reasons I don't bet on sports

LOL

You and me both.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Reading through the great book "Cracker Jack Collection: Baseball's Prized Players," it's striking how many good players in the deadball era served as Player-Managers for some part of their careers. Wonder if we will ever see another Player-Manager. More complicated today than ever, but some supremely popular/respected guy like Jeter probably could have pulled it off. Would be great to see.

In his later years Cobb was a player manager.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's Al Bridwell's player/manager card from 1919. His only season with Houston, there are accounts of him throwing runners out at the plate from Left field.

I remember Pete Rose picking his spots to pinch hit when he saw a good match-up with the opposing pitcher. It was fun to watch, and I hope we see it again. I could see someone like Altuve managing and playing at the end of his career.

[BuzzD]

Hal Chase player-manager in 1911 NYAL. Love the kilt. Poor Hippo Vaughn!

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by BuzzD

Hal Chase player-manager in 1911 NYAL. Love the kilt. Poor Hippo Vaughn!

Vaughn was probably wondering what else he had to do for Chase to start more games that year.

Brian

[BobC]

Did anyone know that even Cy Young was a player-manager, 1907 with the Boston Red Sox.


Here's another player-manager trivia question. Can anyone guess the most number of different teams that one person has served as a player-manager of? And oddly enough there are two different people who have tied for this.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Vaughn was probably wondering what else he had to do for Chase to start more games that year.

Brian

LOL....doing whatever it takes!
.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by BobC

Did anyone know that even Cy Young was a player-manager, 1907 with the Boston Red Sox.


Here's another player-manager trivia question. Can anyone guess the most number of different teams that one person has served as a player-manager of? And oddly enough there are two different people who have tied for this.

Was it Hornsby? I could've sworn he was player manager for the Browns, Cardinals and Cubs.

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by Seven

Was it Hornsby? I could've sworn he was player manager for the Browns, Cardinals and Cubs.

Hornsby and Comiskey managed at least three different teams so its got to be more than three who ever the two are

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Seven

Was it Hornsby? I could've sworn he was player manager for the Browns, Cardinals and Cubs.

Sorry, you're cold.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

Hornsby and Comiskey managed at least three different teams so its got to be more than three who ever the two are

Your logic is on the money, it is more than three different teams. Also, neither of player-managers tied for doing so with the most teams is a HOFer.

[jingram058]

John Clapp was a player-manager for six different teams. That has to be one of them. I don't know who the other fellow is.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jingram058

John Clapp was a player-manager for six different teams. That has to be one of them. I don't know who the other fellow is.

We have a winner!

Not only was he the first ever player-manager, starting back in 1872 with the Middleton Mansfields, but went on to be player-manager of the Indianapolis Blues, Buffalo Bisons, Cincinnati Reds, Cleveland Blues, and finally the New York Gothams in 1883. Clapp was a catcher during his career.

And then just a few years after Clapp got started, a 2nd baseman named Bob Ferguson took on the duties of player-manager for the Hartford Dark Blues, starting in 1876. And he followed that by being the player-manager of the Chicago White Stockings, Troy Trojans, Philadelphia Quakers, Pittsburgh Alleghenys, and finally ended his string with the New York Metropolitans in 1887. Interesting coincidence how they both ended their tenures as player-managers with New York teams.

And the earlier person who guessed Rogers Hornsby wasn't too far off after all. But it wasn't three teams he player-managed, it was five teams. He started with the St. Louis Cardinals (1925-26), then went to the New York Giants (1927), Boston Braves (1928), Chicago Cubs (1930-32), and finished player-managing back in St. Louis with the Browns (1933-37).

Hornsby was the only person to player-manage for five different teams, and did so for a combined 12 years. That 12 year stint as a player-manager puts him in third place (tied with Charles Comiskey who also player-managed for 12 years) as the most years someone served as a player-manager for major league teams. New question is, can you guess the two others that player-managed major league teams for more than the 12 years Hornsby and Comiskey did, and how many years did each of them do it for?

[FrankWakefield]

Cap Anson?

[FrankWakefield]

Or Fred Clarke? I think he was player-manager for Louisville and Pittsburg (or Pittsburgh).

[BobC]

Great job Frank, you got them both. Anson is the all-time leader in seasons spent as a major league player-manager at 23 seasons. That is insane! In the history of major league baseball there have only been 36 players to have played that many seasons, let alone play and manage at the same time as well. Anson is also tied for the major league lead in most seasons ever played at 27, along with Nolan Ryan.

Second place on the list of most seasons ever as a player-manager does indeed go to Fred Clarke with 18 seasons. So Hornsby and Comiskey's 12 year stints as player-managers only puts them in a distant third on the all-time list.

Let's try one last major league player-manager trivia question. And hopefully this one won't be so easy.

To the best of my knowledge, in the entire history of major league baseball there have been four occasions where a team's manager apparently shared their recognized name, either intentionally or coincidentally, with the actual or popularly known name for their team. And all four instances were of persons that were their team's player-managers at the time. Can you name the four player-managers, and their namesake teams, without having to go look it up? One fourth of this question should be fairly easy. The other three-fourths, maybe not so much.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

At least 25% (36+) of the 1914 Cracker Jack Ballplayers were player-managers



Including some of the really big names: Cobb, Mathewson, Lajoie, Speaker and Wagner

Speaker mgr cards



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[FrankWakefield]

Naps, Robins?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Naps, Robins?

You have the easy half right of the question right, Napoleon Lajoie and the Cleveland Naps. Now you need to get the other half of the question, and it is not the Robins.