Casey Stengel and the 1909 Kansas City Red Sox

[Runscott]

I recently received a postcard of the Kansas City Red Sox, featuring Casey Stengel. MLB Reference states that Stengel had 4 at bats for the Kansas City Blues in 1910. My assumption was that since he was already in Kansas City, Stengel supplemented his income by joining a semi-pro team. I was wrong about this.

This article Stengel with Aurora in 1911 describes his time playing for Aurora in 1911. It also has a gallery of photos, including one of Stengel with the KC Red Sox - while he's not wearing a sweater as he is in my photo, it's clearly the same player, and he is wearing the same jersey in both photos. This makes sense given that he only played for the team for part of one summer.

Click on the small 'gallery' image of Stengel to the left to get a larger image and the following text below the photo: "Casey Stengel with the Kansas City Red Sox, one season before he came to Aurora. Photo courtesy Baseball Hall of Fame". There is also a website run by Casey Stengel's great-nephew that includes the same photo of Stengel in his gallery of Stengel photos: Stengel with the 1909 KC Red Sox

Phil mentioned that it made more sense to him that if Stengel had played semi-pro ball, he would have done so prior to his professional career. Phil was correct. David Rudd took a look at the postcard today and felt that it is period. Later today he sent me the following article from the Kansas City Times of May 15, 1909 (Thanks, David).



The article comes from a website Stengel KC Red Sox box scores from 1909 which also features several great photos of Stengel while he played sports in high school, along with descriptions (click on the arrows at the top to navigate). Here is the text that accompanies the newspaper clippings shown above:

"In summer 1909, Charles Dillon "Dutch" Stengel played on a Kansas City baseball team that toured as far as western Kansas. Above, The Kansas City Times of May 15, 1909, notified Stengel and other players to meet at the Ninth and Main streets for a trip to Leavenworth, probably by streetcar and interurban. The game was rained out. Below: Six weeks later, the Red Sox, with Stengel listed as pitcher, beat a team in Oberlin in northwest Kansas. The report was in The Kansas City Times of June 30, 1909."

I had planned to visit Kansas City this summer and check old newspapers for evidence that Stengel had played semi-pro ball in Kansas City during 1910. I'm really glad I didn't have to do that, as I would have found nothing, and certainly would not have gone back and checked 1909.

[Runscott]

Here is the 1909 KC Red Sox team:



Top row: Merkel, Bidwell (manager?), unk, unk, unk, Stengel, unk, Bottom row: Lindgrove, unk, unk, Resaler (Ressler?) -(Players i.d.'d based on 1908 KC Bentons cabinet)

Here are the Stengel images from the two KC Red Sox postcards, and another showing Stengel while with Brooklyn:

[slidekellyslide]

Nice score!

[Runscott]

Thanks, Dan.

[Runscott]

Here's a February 13, 1910 article describing Stengel's upcoming tryout with the Kansas City Blues. Note that it mentions Stengel had played ball with the Kansas City Red Sox the previous summer:

http://www.kansascity.com/2008/10/22...y-stengel.html

"Dutch" Stengel, the Central High School athlete, has been signed and will get a tryout with the Blues this spring. Stengel played with the Kansas City Red Sox last summer. He is a good hitter and a fast outfielder."

[Runscott]

At bottom is a September 20, 1908 line-up from the Kansas City Star listing Stengel second in the lineup and playing second base for the Bentons in an upcoming game in Kansas City, Kansas. This is significant because the Benton players are i.d.'d on the back of the team cabinet photo shown further down in this post, and at least five of them (see Red Sox i.d.'s below postcard, above) are also members of the 1909 KC Red Sox team. Since one of them is listed as the manager on the Bentons cabinet, it looks like the team changed names for the 1909 season.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2008/10/22...#storylink=cpy



REA sold a cabinet of the Kansas City Bentons back in 2008. From the auction description: "(Interestingly, the players are identified in print on the reverse, but Stengel is misidentified; the sheet lists him in the middle row, though he is clearly standing in the upper left.) Stengel, who was about sixteen-years-old at the time of the photo, ..."

I think the actual i.d. on the back of the photo is correct: 2nd from left, but he would have been 18. It's kind of weird that auction houses can't even i.d. players in photos when they have the correct i.d. written on the photo

Note: Several of the players shown below are also in the 1909 KC Red Sox photo. I was able to i.d. five, but there might be more.

[drc]

I'm sorry, but no one in any of these pictures looks like Honus Wagner.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Great job, Scott and fantastic to have Dave's help as well. See, a little prodding from a fellow board member pushed you to unimaginable heights. Now if I can only wrestle that postcard away from you..........

[kdixon]

Here is an article I have that has some info on Stengel. It is kind of hard to read.

[h2oya311]

Scott - great investigative work!!!

[drc]

I saw the pc in person and thought it looked genuine.

As far as the newspaper clippings, I merely googled. That was the extent of my research. In fact there at the top of the google list, so I assumed Scott already read them.

But, yes, I take full credit.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drc

I saw the pc in person and thought it looked genuine.

As far as the newspaper clippings, I merely googled. That was the extent of my research. In fact there at the top of the google list, so I assumed Scott already red them.

But, yes, I take full credit.

David, I googled every variety of "Casey Stengel 1910 post card Kansas City Red Sox" that I could think of, and I never saw those newspaper clippings - still can't locate them using Google. I thank you immensely.


Here's something from the 'George Cochran' page (by Craig Lammers) of the SABR Biography Project.

My Note: Apparently, Ira Bidwell, described as 'manager' on the reverse of the 1908 KC Bentons cabinet, was indeed also the manager of the KC Red Sox. This explains why there is so little information regarding the KC Red Sox - they only existed for one season:

"Ira Bidwell was just a few months older than Cochran. While still a teenager, he established the Kansas City Red Sox, an independent professional team. The Red Sox were competitive with minor league teams and even signed the occasional player under minor league contract. In the spring of 1910, Bidwell received an offer to move his team to Wyoming, and the Cheyenne Indians were formed. In 1910, pitcher Claude Hendrix jumped his contract with Salina of the Central Kansas League to play with Cheyenne. The next season George Cochran joined the team."

Here's a photo of Bidwell's 1910 team, from Photos of Bidwell's 1910 team



And from the same website (Bidwell standing):

[Runscott]

(not intentionally bumping this thread - just using it to save my research, which some may be interested in).

This website describes a different KC Red Sox, and has a postcard that appears to have a 1913 date inscribed on it. There is no mention of Stengel:



http://www.kchistory.org/cdm4/item_v...s&CISOPTR=1212

Based on this 1914 image, Ira Bidwell was also associated with the new Kansas City Red Sox team:

[Runscott]

I'm surprised I never read this, as I've read most of Creamer's books - fantastic baseball writer.

Here's an excerpt that talks about Stengel's semi-pro career, and his signing with the Kansas City Blues. The following picks up after a description of Stengel and his friends heading out in 1907 to look for work in the wheat fields, where they ended up playing baseball. I believe the 1908 references to the Red Sox actually refer to the Bentons, Bidwell's first team.

"Stengel's reputation as a ballplayer was growing. A year after the trip to the wheat fields he made another journey west [1908], this time with the Kansas City Red Sox, a slick semipro team (Casey always said "sam-eye pro"). A Central High student named Ira Bidwell had organized the tour, spending the spring writing letters and setting up a schedule. The team went as far west as Utah, playing local teams practically every day, but substituting basketball games in local YMCAs when it rained. The star of the Red Sox was a right-handed pitcher named Claude Hendrix from Olathe, Kansas, a few miles south of Kansas City. Hendrix, a little older than Stengel, followed Ivy Olson into professional ball a year or so later. He, too, would meet Stengel again.
The barnstorming trip with the Red Sox was Stengel's first introduction to the sometimes carefree, somewhat rowdy life of a professional, playing ball every day, chasing around for something to do at night. In 1908 much of their entertainment lay in horseplay, the callow humor that is still evident among baseball players and other athletes. In Stengel's time it was heavy with such subtleties as dumping buckets of water on unsuspecting people, putting snakes in teammates' beds, and so on. Dutch Stengel ate it up. The travel and the fun were major compensations for the players, who were paid only $1 a day, along with rooms and meals.
Despite this more overt venture into play-for-pay baseball, Stengel was back pitching for Central High again in the spring of 1909, his last year. He was the unquestioned star of the team.

... [description of Stengel's final year of baseball at Central High]

He went off again with the semipro Red Sox that summer, playing games as far east as St. Louis and out west again up into Wyoming and back. He was finishing his fourth year in high school that fall (he was a midyear student) when the local minor-league team, the Kansas City Blues, came after him. The Blues were in the American Association, the highest level of minor-league ball, just one step below the majors. In January 1910, Dutch completed four years in high school but lacked sufficient credits to graduate. He decided to chuck school and go with the Blues.
Because he was only nineteen, he needed parental approval. Breezily, he approached his father, contract in hand, and said, "Here, Pop, sign this, will you?"
"What is it?"
"It's a contract to play ball with the Blues. You have to sign it because I'm under twenty-one."
"What about school?"
"Ah, I'm finished with school. The Blues will pay me $135 a month."
That was a lot of money for a boy of nineteen.

[sb1]

I am sure David probably has one of the many newspaper search subscriptions available online. I use newspaperarchive.com

[Runscott]

SGC currently has this postcard. While at the National, I left it with them, along with a printout of this thread. If anyone has thoughts on additional documentation,etc., that I could provide them, to help with the i.d., please let me know.

Mark F - if you have thoughts on the facial comparisons it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

[xcgrammer]

[Al C.risafulli]

This is great stuff, Scott. I've got a small collection of stuff from throughout Casey's life, but very little from this early. It's fascinating to see. Thanks for sharing (and nice score on the postcard!).

-Al

[Runscott]

Thanks Al. Sorry I missed your response initially.

Jason - thanks for posting that article about Stengel's 59 games in 1910. I was unaware of that.

I had thought about writing an article about Casey's pre-Major League days, but most of it is well-documented in Creamer's biography. The only problem is that Creamer decided that it was unnecessary to cite his sources, providing instead, a one-page disclaimer indicating that it would be too difficult to indicate everyone who had contributed

Wish I could use that disclaimer when publishing.

[bmarlowe1]

Scott posted: REA sold a cabinet of the Kansas City Bentons back in 2008. From the auction description: "(Interestingly, the players are identified in print on the reverse, but Stengel is misidentified; the sheet lists him in the middle row, though he is clearly standing in the upper left.) Stengel, who was about sixteen-years-old at the time of the photo, ..."

I think the actual i.d. on the back of the photo is correct: 2nd from left, but he would have been 18. It's kind of weird that auction houses can't even i.d. players in photos when they have the correct i.d. written on the photo


[/quote]

Scott - you are right - the guy in the back row enlarged above is definitely not Stengel.

[Runscott]

Mark, thanks but what I was asking about was a comparison of the Hall of Fame's 1909 KC Red Sox photo of Stengel with the one I have of him with the same team.

SGC has had my postcard since the National, along with the documentation from this thread, and they originally told me that they wouldn't verify it unless an expert agreed with me. Oddly, they gave Messier's name as the expert whose opinion they would value, even though he's not a facial comparison expert as far as I know.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Mark, thanks but what I was asking about was a comparison of the Hall of Fame's 1909 KC Red Sox photo of Stengel with the one I have of him with the same team.

SGC has had my postcard since the National, along with the documentation from this thread, and they originally told me that they wouldn't verify it unless an expert agreed with me. Oddly, they gave Messier's name as the expert whose opinion they would value, even though he's not a facial comparison expert as far as I know.

Who is Messier?

Your guy is Stengel - contact me offline.

[Runscott]

Pardon me for reviving a dead thread, but this just arrived from SGC and I wanted to place the photo in the appropriate thread. Thanks to Mark F for providing a facial comparison (Stengel from this RPPC with Stengel from 1909 KC Red Sox i.d.'d Stengel KC Red Sox image at the HOF), which helped SGC get this taken care of, to Earl at SGC for handling and Brian at REA for helping me work with SGC at the National.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Nice work, Scott. I know that you put a lot of effort into this one and SGC got it right.