2023 National Card Show DRAMA!!

[111gecko]

Thanks to all for the awesome videos, photos, and updates. It's great to see all the action...wow there's a ton of modern..

Now.....it's that time of year again when a story drips out in pieces for several days about something that happened.

Some of the recent greatest hits:

1) The "slight of hand" disappearing '51 Mantle and the ice cream stand.
2) The "he have me a bag of money but I never bothered to count it" and got ripped off story.
3) The FBI wandering through the event and apparently making no arrests.

So......who's got the first story this year?

[sb1]

The winning story this year was the lack of functioning air conditioning for a record crowd, which they claimed they did not anticipate. In second place would be "we have new show promoters", yet we are still married to all the old venues, especially Atlantic City, which every dealer that does not live within a 200 mile radius hates with a passion. In 3rd place was the concession stands running out of hot dogs and water on Thursday at 2 pm, less than 24 hours into the event.

[Leon]

I heard someone got walked out in handcuffs (perp walk) by some plain clothes law enforement. Maybe someone will know more. That is all I heard. Hopefully another bad actor facing consequences.
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I heard someone got walked out in handcuffs (perp walk) by some plain clothes law enforement. Maybe someone will know more. That is all I heard. Hopefully another bad actor facing consequences.
.

My guess would be no one among the 25 most deserving of such treatment. Probably some inconsequential memorabilia guy.

[Bkrum]

Saw two guys getting walked out in the cuffs on Friday afternoon in the vintage area. Haven’t heard among more about it

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by sb1

The winning story this year was the lack of functioning air conditioning for a record crowd, which they claimed they did not anticipate. In second place would be "we have new show promoters", yet we are still married to all the old venues, especially Atlantic City, which every dealer that does not live within a 200 mile radius hates with a passion. In 3rd place was the concession stands running out of hot dogs and water on Thursday at 2 pm, less than 24 hours into the event.

4th would be the knucklehead lack of direction given to the "security" guards letting people in. There's a line, there isn't a line, there's a line...
I find it amusing these guys pick venues 3 years in advance but neglect to address how to get people in the venue in the most efficient way, there's no excuse for any of these snafus, hire a production/logistics expert if you don't have that skill in your tool bag.

[jethrod3]

I can attest from a first-hand witness that a couple of folks were taken into custody, Friday I believe. I think the action was in Aisles 500-700. According to one of the vintage dealers, plain-clothes officers were watching them for some time, and at one point, because they didn't want the alleged perpetrators to catch on that they were being watched, one of the dealers in the vicinity was asked to keep an eye on them. Apparently, the plain-clothes folks radioed for additional security to come to the scene, and there was some delay in those folks arriving, necessitating the need for more eyes on the alleged perpetrators. That's all I got!

[jingram058]

Kind of hard to steal merchandise at a venue like that. Not saying it can't be done, but, it's hard. Pick-pocketing, sure, but even that's hard if folks use common sense. Pretty dumb to try.

[yanks4]

I can not for the life of me understand why there aren’t any tables and chairs so you have a place to eat your overpriced hotdog and drink? People sitting on the floor eating... resting...it is totally ridiculous....and frankly uncaring to customers..

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by yanks4

I can not for the life of me understand why there aren’t any tables and chairs so you have a place to eat your overpriced hotdog and drink? People sitting on the floor eating... resting...it is totally ridiculous....and frankly uncaring to customers..

Bingo....you would think they could devote a few chairs and tables to all the people that are paying money to enter.

[Snapolit1]

AC has an nicely airconditioned bar/restaurant like 100 feet from the Convention hall with great beers. Not that anyone is allowed to say something good about AC.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Bingo....you would think they could devote a few chairs and tables to all the people that are paying money to enter.

They used to, pre-COVID. Right around the main snack bar area.

[1954 topps]

Chicago is my least favorite of the three sites used recently. Cleveland is massive and spread out plus easy to drive to from wherever you’re staying. Same with AC, plenty of hotel and food nearby. Chicago hotels are more expensive than the other two and parking cost more. Now add in the lack of air conditioning and Chicago is now my least favorite venue to attend.
Never thought I’d actually look forward to going to either Cleveland or AC but I’m starting to dread the Chicago trips.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

AC has an nicely airconditioned bar/restaurant like 100 feet from the Convention hall with great beers. Not that anyone is allowed to say something good about AC.

I don't have a problem with AC, except I usually lose my money in their casinos. But I haven't been since they introduced Sports Betting, so I may have a fighting chance now.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My guess would be no one among the 25 most deserving of such treatment. Probably some inconsequential memorabilia guy.

Or more likely someone who stole a $175 card off of a table.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

Chicago is my least favorite of the three sites used recently. Cleveland is massive and spread out plus easy to drive to from wherever you’re staying. Same with AC, plenty of hotel and food nearby. Chicago hotels are more expensive than the other two and parking cost more. Now add in the lack of air conditioning and Chicago is now my least favorite venue to attend.
Never thought I’d actually look forward to going to either Cleveland or AC but I’m starting to dread the Chicago trips.

I have to agree with you, and Chicago is the easiest venue to get to for me by far.

Garbage cans were overflowing, bathroom floors were slick and never mopped, and the air conditioning was nonexistent for the first few days.

Also, signs for the aisle I was in (Row 300) were not in place on the end of the floor I was in. Because of the increased corporate presence, my table was behind a giant wall (literally a giant wall that was probably 20x20 for something called Wild Cards) with no way to get through to our booth directly. Even the other corporate booths could be navigated through; this was just a friggin' wall. I would bet that a third of the people who were at the show never even knew there were tables where I was at. Amazingly I had a pretty good show, but it could have been much better.

[BeanTown]

I hope the People who run the National read boards like this, and apply common sense for improvement.

[conor912]

When they know people are gonna show up in droves no matter what, it’s virtually impossible to expect them to care.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I hope the People who run the National read boards like this, and apply common sense for improvement.

They read the boards and have common sense. Next year there is a new management group Joe Drelich, Brian Coppola and Jim Ryan are taking over. Joe (hi Joe) has posted on the forum many times, generally concerning The Philly Show, which he's run for several years.
They spoke at the Net54baseball banquet. I think they hear collectors, and dealers, loud and clear. All 3 of the directors have run big shows before, so I am very hopeful. That said, the show must have been 2x as big, physically, than last year. It was monstorous . There are a million moving parts, it seems.
Here is an article most have probably already seen...if not, well, here ya' go.


https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/n...-team-schedule
.

.,

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

AC has an nicely airconditioned bar/restaurant like 100 feet from the Convention hall with great beers. Not that anyone is allowed to say something good about AC.

..38 Report Post
Old 08-01-2022, 06:38 AM
Johnny
Member

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,012
Default
100 Hundred Dollar Bills Everywhere from 14 year old's to 70's. On dealer had a bank counting machine on his backup table. Wow. The wealth in this hobby is broad reaching.

[Exhibitman]

That sounds horribly frustrating, Chris. Had I been stuck like that I'd have been using The Wall for all sorts of display stuff. Maybe spray paint it like the Berlin Wall?

I've been saying for years that management has to rethink the floor plan for these shows. That is true now more than ever with both a giant space need and so much of the hobby universe taken up by specialized areas of endeavor that many simply do not want anything to do with. I have no interest in the loud casino of breaking or the nattering nabobs of nonsense doing their livestreams and podcasts, nor am I one of the autograph pod people waiting patiently for hours to overpay for a signature from a guy whose autograph is instantly worth 20% of what they paid. IMHO, the show runners should:

1. Put the breakers, autographs and other similar stuff in one end of the place.

2. Put all the corporate booths next,

3. Put the direct services for collectors (TPGs and authenticators) next, and

4. Put all the dealers and AHs together at one end.

The priority system should be revamped to be only dealers and AHs.

This open floor plan disorganization does a disservice to each of the constituencies. It is time to recognize that the corporate areas and event areas are just wastelands that collectors have to cross. Having it all clustered will make the show much more hospitable for everyone.

I know the corporate people will protest; they think that collectors who would be into a vintage card booth would somehow be turned on by their shiny trinkets. Guess what, we aren't. All I ever think about when I see one of these corporate areas is "get out of my way." Anyone with an actual interest in this stuff can readily find it. For most of us it is just a nuisance.

Now all you kids get off my lawn.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

1. Put the breakers, autographs and other similar stuff in one end of the place.

Not that I ever wish to attend another National, but if you're going to stick autographs with breakers, I'm definitely staying home! Breakers belong with corporate.

BTW, you can tell it's been a while since I've been to a show there. I had no idea about the entertainment area you mentioned. That was definitely not there the last time I was in the vicinity. A friend told me that it's too small to handle the crowds.

[conor912]

This was my first Natty, so I have no base for comparison, and overall enjoyed myself. I have, however, been to plenty of conventions, exhibitions, and conferences to know that this one has major challenges. I would take the time to list them all in detail if I thought it would make any difference. I will say that making people sit on the dirty concrete floor to eat should be a crime.

[Fall1963]

Could not agree more. What about the customers???

[taul166]

Don't mean to change the subject to the 2022 National in Atlantic City, but I am curious about a widely reported incident that occurred last year. I may have forgotten a few facts but do others remember the dealer who had a slew of Topps Mantles in his case which I believe were from the same year, and he claimed that he let someone he sort of knew take all of them to show to someone else maybe a son....and then they got passed back to the guy who took them who was then seen leaving the show floor with the cards. The police were called who took a statement and made a report. A lot of people commented about hey something does not sound right with this.

I was trying to find the original posting but didn't. Just curious if anyone ever heard what happened afterward?

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by taul166

Don't mean to change the subject to the 2022 National in Atlantic City, but I am curious about a widely reported incident that occurred last year. I may have forgotten a few facts but do others remember the dealer who had a slew of Topps Mantles in his case which I believe were from the same year, and he claimed that he let someone he sort of knew take all of them to show to someone else maybe a son....and then they got passed back to the guy who took them who was then seen leaving the show floor with the cards. The police were called who took a statement and made a report. A lot of people commented about hey something does not sound right with this.

I was trying to find the original posting but didn't. Just curious if anyone ever heard what happened afterward?

Yeah, that was a big thing and it should be easy for somewhere to direct you to the thread.
This was something that came a bit later, but surely contains some info:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=323213

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Leon

They read the boards and have common sense. Next year there is a new management group Joe Drelich, Brian Coppola and Jim Ryan are taking over. Joe (hi Joe) has posted on the forum many times, generally concerning The Philly Show, which he's run for several years.
They spoke at the Net54baseball banquet. I think they hear collectors, and dealers, loud and clear. All 3 of the directors have run big shows before, so I am very hopeful. That said, the show must have been 2x as big, physically, than last year. It was monstorous . There are a million moving parts, it seems.
Here is an article most have probably already seen...if not, well, here ya' go.


https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/n...-team-schedule
.

.,

I thought it was great you had them as Speakers (not Tris), job well done. I produced a Music Festival for 25 years, what I learned was the two most important things were product, in my case music, and customer experience.

It's not rocket science, it's a mathematical logistic hierarchy, start at the end and work your way back, the map will show you what needs to be done 3,6,9,and 12 months out. Worked out well, my timeline spreadsheet was dialed after a few years.

One thing I always did every year and would suggest the producers do is put yourself through the customer experience.

Stand there and see what it's like to get into your venue, is it efficient and kind?
Try to navigate your layout. Is it frustrating or pleasant?

Get yourself fed/hydrated at your event. Timing/quality/accessibility? Understand it's disrespectful and humiliating to make people sit on the floor to eat.

Go take a shit in the bathrooms your event represents. Sit on the seat, wipe your ass with the TP if there is any, and report back.

AC? Was never an issue for me as an outdoor event(curse you rain) but I'm amazed that the National would put up with any mechanical snafus, you're bringing a lot of economic dollars to the table, I would demand the City and Union shitheads make sure my folks were well conditioned and comfortable to spend money.

Too many people?
First thing I would do to adjust to a sell out is raise ticket prices and turn people away. Believe me it's the best Pavlovian response to profitability.
And make sure your dealers/product are taken care of, the better the product the cheaper the price. Get rid of the museum guys and give them incentive to sell baseball cards, free space with gross sale limits, etc..

This stuff isn't hard imo, it's just a lot of hard work with the right priorities. As a logistics guy I'm available for consultation and will take my pay in 1914 Cracker Jack cards.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I thought it was great you had them as Speakers (not Tris), job well done. I produced a Music Festival for 25 years, what I learned was the two most important things were product, in my case music, and customer experience.

It's not rocket science, it's a mathematical logistic hierarchy, start at the end and work your way back, the map will show you what needs to be done 3,6,9,and 12 months out. Worked out well, my timeline spreadsheet was dialed after a few years.

One thing I always did every year and would suggest the producers do is put yourself through the customer experience.

Stand there and see what it's like to get into your venue, is it efficient and kind?
Try to navigate your layout. Is it frustrating or pleasant?

Get yourself fed/hydrated at your event. Timing/quality/accessibility? Understand it's disrespectful and humiliating to make people sit on the floor to eat.

Go take a shit in the bathrooms your event represents. Sit on the seat, wipe your ass with the TP if there is any, and report back.

AC? Was never an issue for me as an outdoor event(curse you rain) but I'm amazed that the National would put up with any mechanical snafus, you're bringing a lot of economic dollars to the table, I would demand the City and Union shitheads make sure my folks were well conditioned and comfortable to spend money.

Too many people?
First thing I would do to adjust to a sell out is raise ticket prices and turn people away. Believe me it's the best Pavlovian response to profitability.
And make sure your dealers/product are taken care of, the better the product the cheaper the price. Get rid of the museum guys and give them incentive to sell baseball cards, free space with gross sale limits, etc..

This stuff isn't hard imo, it's just a lot of hard work with the right priorities. As a logistics guy I'm available for consultation and will take my pay in 1914 Cracker Jack cards.

This is spot on. I also agree on raising the prices. I came from out of state and spent a couple grand before even walking in the door. I would happily pay 2x on my pass for a better experience.

[CJinPA]

Originally Posted by taul166

Don't mean to change the subject to the 2022 National in Atlantic City, but I am curious about a widely reported incident that occurred last year. I may have forgotten a few facts but do others remember the dealer who had a slew of Topps Mantles in his case which I believe were from the same year, and he claimed that he let someone he sort of knew take all of them to show to someone else maybe a son....and then they got passed back to the guy who took them who was then seen leaving the show floor with the cards. The police were called who took a statement and made a report. A lot of people commented about hey something does not sound right with this.

I was trying to find the original posting but didn't. Just curious if anyone ever heard what happened afterward?

I took this at the National in AC.... Wonder if it was this guy - he had another case of more Mantles unslabbed.... was amazing!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

One thing I always did every year and would suggest the producers do is put yourself through the customer experience.

Stand there and see what it's like to get into your venue, is it efficient and kind?
Try to navigate your layout. Is it frustrating or pleasant?

Get yourself fed/hydrated at your event. Timing/quality/accessibility? Understand it's disrespectful and humiliating to make people sit on the floor to eat.

Go take a shit in the bathrooms your event represents. Sit on the seat, wipe your ass with the TP if there is any, and report back.

This (especially the crapper part). If it doesn't feel right, it isn't right, and the show runner should be cracking heads with the venue, repeatedly and persistently, until it is made right. It is his job to be the squeaky wheel.

One thing I don't blame them for is mechanical breakdowns. They happen. That said the venue should have a back-up plan and the promoters should be asking about that plan before everyone is left there sweating balls because the AC crapped out.
Read Sun Tzu: every battle is won before it is fought. Planning includes contingencies.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by CJinPA

I took this at the National in AC.... Wonder if it was this guy - he had another case of more Mantles unslabbed.... was amazing!

Rotated to provide a full-blown "upright-human viewing of raw Mantles in a display case" experience.

Brian

[philliesfan]

It's not rotated properly. the 1964 Giant is still sideways........haha

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

It's not rotated properly. the 1964 Giant is still sideways........haha

For those 1964 Topps Giants Mantle fans...

mantlesinabox.jpg



Brian

[Mrc32]

I spoke to one long time dealer about the lack of air conditioning one day and we got on to other topics including my thoughts about how great it was they had 60 or so MORE dealers this year.

I figured well, who could really be opposed to that. More things to look at for us buyers.

The sellers response: "We don't need more dealers - that's just more competition for us!"

You can't please everyone!

[Seven]

If that was the same Mantle dealer, from last year, I felt his prices were inflated. I track Mantles pretty often, as he's my main collecting draw. To be charging that much, for unslabbed cards, with no idea what they will come in, grade wise, is a "no" from me.

In general I have a rule of only buying raw vintage from sellers I trust, or from sellers who have the trust of prominent members in the community. Unless that dealer was guaranteeing a full refund, If I brought one of those to PSA/SGC and it came back an "Authentic" would I be willing to buy from them.

[timber63401]

Originally Posted by CJinPA

I took this at the National in AC.... Wonder if it was this guy - he had another case of more Mantles unslabbed.... was amazing!

My one and only National trip 10ish years ago there was a dealer there with 20+ 52 Mantles. Never seen even 1 in person to that point. Was a sight to behold.

[brunswickreeves]

20+ '52 Topps Mantles 10 years ago at the National...oh the days when a PSA 1 WAS UNDER $10K and that seemed astronomical!

[timber63401]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

20+ '52 Topps Mantles 10 years ago at the National...oh the days when a PSA 1 WAS UNDER $10K and that seemed astronomical!

My biggest regret in this hobby is not buying a low grade one when I could of afforded it. It would of been tough for me but it could of been done.

[Rare Stuff]

A couple of the best dealers tables I saw at the National.
I posted about 20 videos.

https://youtu.be/vn-0XKTGegY

https://youtu.be/_91yLrLmYhA