PWCC - Sorry, Yet Again

[Yoda]

I am sure that many have noticed there is a new element now incorporated in the current version of their new auction rollout; there is now extended bidding, not possible when they were under the arm pit of Ebay.

[BobbyStrawberry]

If their ebay site was an armpit, I'm afraid to say what their own auction house would be...

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I am sure that many have noticed there is a new element now incorporated in the current version of their new auction rollout; there is now extended bidding, not possible when they were under the arm pit of Ebay.

Extended bidding for their monthly auctions? Or, just for their Premier auctions?

[Pjere]

I wonder why so many people waste so much time being critical?


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[Leon]

Originally Posted by Pjere

I wonder why so many people waste so much time being critical?

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Of course, why be critical?

.

[Snowman]

As a buyer or a seller, I like this new auction structure with the sliding bidding windows. If an item gets a bid during the current window, it gets pushed to the next window. If it doesn't, it ends at the completion of the current window.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Pjere

I wonder why so many people waste so much time being critical?


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Umm, because they are knee-deep in the card doctoring scandal and got thrown off eBay for enabling shill bidding on a massive scale. But nothing to see, folks, just look at the labels on the holders and move along.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Umm, because they are knee-deep in the card doctoring scandal and got thrown off eBay for enabling shill bidding on a massive scale. But nothing to see, folks, just look at the labels on the holders and move along.

I wish all well that wants to use their new platform.

However, for me I will watch from the side lines do to past concerns with PWCC

[Republicaninmass]

Must need time to check out bidder Ids to prevent shilling up to the max bids

[hcv123]

the new 20% Buyers premium!?

[Pjere]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Umm, because they are knee-deep in the card doctoring scandal and got thrown off eBay for enabling shill bidding on a massive scale. But nothing to see, folks, just look at the labels on the holders and move along.

My point is what’s done is done yet they are still brought up once a month or more simply to complain about them again. I have had some good and some bad experiences with them.
The ebay thing is a bit sketchy on both sides. In my experience pwcc was 10x harder on bidders than ebay was. I was kicked off twice for at least 6 months for the simplest of mistakes:
one time bid $700 instead of $70 and was blocked from bidding because I cancelled the bid.
Another time I was selling some cards that were later relisted because of nonpayment but for some reason weren’t in my member porthole on pwcc and I ended up bidding on one of my own cards (it was a psa 10 prizm Qb of which there were multiple so the error was an easy mistake; once again blocked for the error.
In my opinion ebay saw the writing on the wall and decided to cut off pwcc instead of letting them use their site to create more clientele for when they were going to open their own marketplace anyway.
.


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[Fuddjcal]

[QUOTE=Pjere;2153995]My point is what’s done is done yet they are still brought up once a month or more simply to complain about them again. I have had some good and some bad experiences with them.

Yeah, what's done is done, LOL...Here's the lube. Bend over, only a few more thrusts and we're done.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=Fuddjcal;2154523]

Originally Posted by Pjere

My point is what’s done is done yet they are still brought up once a month or more simply to complain about them again. I have had some good and some bad experiences with them.

Yeah, what's done is done, LOL...Here's the lube. Bend over, only a few more thrusts and we're done.

As we know, long as you got the stuff, people don't care what you've done or been accused of.

A terrorist group could run a successful auction with good material.

[Pjere]

Yeah, what's done is done, LOL...Here's the lube. Bend over, only a few more thrusts and we're done.[/QUOTE]


Wow you are disgusting


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[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Umm, because they are knee-deep in the card doctoring scandal and got thrown off eBay for enabling shill bidding on a massive scale. But nothing to see, folks, just look at the labels on the holders and move along.

There ya go injecting truth into things again but that will not stop some.

[Republicaninmass]

You'd have to have your head, and your conscience, examined if you still bid with these guys. You are only "fooling" yourself, and it is only a matter of time. Greedy does make for a hungry puppy.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You'd have to have your head, and your conscience, examined if you still bid with these guys. You are only "fooling" yourself, and it is only a matter of time. Greedy does make for a hungry puppy.

I've read enough to know that their actions have been thoroughly investigated by the FBI for the laundry list of accusations made on the Blowhard forums. If any of the more serious accusations hold any water whatsoever, then they will be prosecuted. I trust the criminal justice system, for the most part, at least in cases like this. If there is significant wrongdoing by PWCC, we will find out. At that point, I will decide whether or not to continue doing business with them based on those findings. Until then, I will continue to reserve judgment.

Any day now... any day now...

[Republicaninmass]

I dont know, you used the past tense. You seem pretty confident they were investigated and found of no wrong doing. Maybe you should be their mouthpiece, even more so than just a "contrarian " here on channel n54.

I'd advise then to make a statement like

"Hey dudes, we are real salt of the earth kindred spirit folk out here on the Oregon trail. We were investigatED, and subsequently found not guilty, of any wrong doing by the FBI. Ebay claims of people shill bidding in association with PWCC are unsubstantiated. Bid early and often with one ID for your next conserved investment vehicle"


Silence speaks volumes.



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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You seem pretty confident they were investigated and found of no wrong doing.

I don't see how you can draw this conclusion after reading what I just wrote.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't see how you can draw this conclusion after reading what I just wrote.

The FBI and Ebay must just be picking on them. Ebay you claimed it was because they were starting their own "platform". Which a board member pointed out to you it was just going to be items for sale. Once they were

kicked off all of a sudden became auctions. Curious if you know if they were they also going into investigations so the FBI began investigating them? Maybe it was just background checks so they could become private investigators?

I'm not sure why they are drawing all this attention, but think I'll steer clear, despite proof of any wrong doing. I guess OJ was actually proven innocent too. He must just be "wrongly accused, and worth doing business with" in snowman's book of integrity.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

The FBI and Ebay must just be picking on them. Ebay you claimed it was because they were starting their own "platform". Which a board member pointed out to you it was just going to be items for sale. Once they were

kicked off all of a sudden became auctions. Curious if you know if they were they also going into investigations so the FBI began investigating them? Maybe it was just background checks so they could become private investigators?

I'm not sure why they are drawing all this attention, but think I'll steer clear, despite proof of any wrong doing. I guess OJ was actually proven innocent too. He must just be "wrongly accused, and worth doing business with" in snowman's book of integrity.

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You seem to want to project conclusions onto me. You're not understanding what I keep saying. I don't know what happened. I have zero insider knowledge. I also don't believe anyone else here knows what happened either. Again, I'm agnostic.

My point about eBay potentially wanting to tarnish PWCC's reputation isn't me pretending to know what is happening. It's just a counterpoint to the arguments that you guys keep making where you pretend to know that eBay has proof of PWCC themselves engaging in shill bidding, or that the FBI is pressuring eBay into this decsision. Sure, both are plausible, but you don't know that to be true, and it certainly cannot even be assumed from the wording of the email they sent out. You are the one claiming you know what happened here. Not me. Again, I remain agnostic, but I point out that there are other legitimate possibilities in play, and that eBay coming after a competitor is certainly one of them. eBay has a strong track record of coming after their competition. This is not some far-fetched conspiracy theory. It is one of many plausible explanations. That's all I'm saying.

[GeoPoto]

Prosecutors generally don't have to prosecute cases that are likely to succeed. Instead they use the threat of prosecution to force the company to "voluntarily" make changes necessary to prevent recurrance of the proscribed activity. If Brent and Betsy "dance" perfectly, they may be able to blame "everything" on him, transfer his control/interest to her, commit to internal controls designed to prevent recurrance, and pay a whopping fine. The company could then go forward, led by Betsy and/or a new CEO.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Prosecutors generally don't have to prosecute cases that are likely to succeed. Instead they use the threat of prosecution to force the company to "voluntarily" make changes necessary to prevent recurrance of the proscribed activity. If Brent and Betsy "dance" perfectly, they may be able to blame "everything" on him, transfer his control/interest to her, commit to internal controls designed to prevent recurrance, and pay a whopping fine. The company could then go forward, led by Betsy and/or a new CEO.

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Would this be discoverable if something like this were to occur? I could see how something like this could be on the table if the crimes were somewhat negligible, but if you read the allegations on Blowhard, we're talking about levels of fraud that far exceed that of what even Mastro did. If all (or even just the majority of) those allegations are true, might they still pursue such a soft punishment? I just have a difficult time buying the idea that PWCC committed massive fraud and that Brent just received a slap on the wrist because that's just how these things go.

[GeoPoto]

If what many on this and other forums believe is true/provable, Brent will end up pleading to something. From the company's perspective, whatever happened was an unfortunate part of the past but will never be repeated.

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[CardPadre]

Just an add-on item to a PWCC thread, did anyone know that they keep your cards if they don’t get the minimum $10 bid at auction?

I just found this when reading through all their terms and faqs. Out of the 40,000+ cards for sale during their first monthly auction, almost 3000 went without bids and are now owned by PWCC. Wonder if all those owners were made clearly aware of that possibility or if it will be a surprise.
- Will.i.am $t@dy




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[vthobby]

I just got a very personalized email from PWCC telling me that the items I had in their last auction were sold and will be paid out in time.

Funny thing is......I pulled ALL of my cards from them about 6 months ago and breathed a big sigh of relief when I finally got everything back.

I can't wait to see what I sold (lol) ........ that I did not even have in their auction!



Crazy times indeed!

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

I just got a very personalized email from PWCC telling me that the items I had in their last auction were sold and will be paid out in time.

Funny thing is......I pulled ALL of my cards from them about 6 months ago and breathed a big sigh of relief when I finally got everything back.

I can't wait to see what I sold (lol) ........ that I did not even have in their auction!



Crazy times indeed!

Peace, Mike

If the purchased cards just go into the vault and show up only on a vault account, think of the Ponzi schemes they could run, selling phantom cards they no longer actually have in possession.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Just an add-on item to a PWCC thread, did anyone know that they keep your cards if they don’t get the minimum $10 bid at auction?

I just found this when reading through all their terms and faqs. Out of the 40,000+ cards for sale during their first monthly auction, almost 3000 went without bids and are now owned by PWCC. Wonder if all those owners were made clearly aware of that possibility or if it will be a surprise.
- William Stady




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I believe you may have misunderstood their policy. It sounds like they're saying that if a card in their auction gets no bids that they keep it to relist in their next auction, not that they actually own the card. I imagine that if/when the card sells in a subsequent auction that they still send the net proceeds from the sale to the original consignor. Sounds like they're trying to protect themselves from the effort and costs of dealing with people who send them items that end up not being worth even the initial bid amount they set their auctions at. Not sure how they actually handle the determination and acceptance of consigned items, but this policy may keep them from having to expend the time and incur the shipping costs of constantly having to send back items that aren't worth their standard minimum auction starting bid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

I believe you may have misunderstood their policy. It sounds like they're saying that if a card in their auction gets no bids that they keep it to relist in their next auction, not that they actually own the card. I imagine that if/when the card sells in a subsequent auction that they still send the net proceeds from the sale to the original consignor. Sounds like they're trying to protect themselves from the effort and costs of dealing with people who send them items that end up not being worth even the initial bid amount they set their auctions at. Not sure how they actually handle the determination and acceptance of consigned items, but this polcy may keep them from having to expend the time and incur the shipping costs of constantly having to send back items that aren't worth their standard minimum auction starting bid.

Yes, they obviously (even if it is Brent lol) aren't just keeping people's cards as their own. They just mean they won't individually relist it after the auction. They could have worded it better.

[CardPadre]

Maybe I did misinterpret it, absolutely possible. But it literally says "the item will be forfeited to pwcc". No one else reads that as pwcc actually taking ownership of the card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Maybe I did misinterpret it, absolutely possible. But it literally says "the item will be forfeited to pwcc". No one else reads that as pwcc actually taking ownership of the card?

You have to read it in light of the last sentence. It's poorly worded to be sure.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Maybe I did misinterpret it, absolutely possible. But it literally says "the item will be forfeited to pwcc". No one else reads that as pwcc actually taking ownership of the card?

I agree with you it sounds like they get ownership of your card if it doesn't meet their $10 min bid. They are doing this instead of charging you fees for a low end item that didn't sell.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Maybe I did misinterpret it, absolutely possible. But it literally says "the item will be forfeited to pwcc". No one else reads that as pwcc actually taking ownership of the card?

I read it that way. It's wholly unambiguous. Even in context, it's quite clear that they are stating that they are taking ownership of the card(s) and do not intend to ever give them back to you. Presumably they would compensate you if and when the card actually sells.

[ezez420]

This has always been in place for PWCC. Four Sharp Corners has the same thing in place. Although I don’t agree with it is in their consignment guidelines.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

So if they aren't able to sell a card, they get rewarded by keeping it. Makes sense to me.

[CardPadre]

Many truly unspectacular slabbed cards can bring $10 with the right eyes on them. If I remember correctly, there was a 1953 Topps baseball common in psa 7 that went unsold. Some set collector who needed it would have jumped on it if seen. And if two saw it and needed it, gets bid up. What doesn’t sell one time for $10, could do double that another time.


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

If I remember correctly, there was a 1953 Topps baseball common in psa 7 that went unsold. Some set collector who needed it would have jumped on it if seen. And if two saw it and needed it, gets bid up. What doesn’t sell one time for $10, could do double that another time.

This is where it starts to get dicey for me. A card that definitely has value but slips through the cracks because the right buyers weren't present for this particular auction. However, that's more the buyer's fault than PWCC's I would say. A card like this never sells until the right buyer comes along, and there aren't very many of them. I would never even consider selling a card like this at auction. This is one of those cards that you just put in your eBay store as a 'Buy-it-now' and wait for that one set collector who needs it to come along X number of months later. The likelihood of this card ending up in a bidding war on PWCC is extremely low. The seller should have known that. And even if it did sell, what's he missing out on? A few bucks?

I would be interested to hear what Scott's view on extremely low valued cards is. I assume most auction houses do not want to even bother with them, and the ones that do merely offer it as a courtesy for sellers with larger collections and other higher priced items to sell. But I promise you, they don't want someone sending in 100 $10 cards to list in their next auction, even if it means they get to keep all 100 of them if they don't sell.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I would be interested to hear what Scott's view on extremely low valued cards is. I assume most auction houses do not want to even bother with them, and the ones that do merely offer it as a courtesy for sellers with larger collections and other higher priced items to sell. But I promise you, they don't want someone sending in 100 $10 cards to list in their next auction, even if it means they get to keep all 100 of them if they don't sell.

If you mean me, while we aren't a major player, we're not looking for $10 cards. We take them as a courtesy to consignors who provide us with better items as well, but we start them at $1. We have less than 1% no sales, and typically move the few we have into a future auction for the original consignor. If someone wants them back we send them back, our dime.

[Republicaninmass]

Cant shill without one bid I guess. Prevent those sold items from being relisted month after month before being dumped on some speculator like they did on ebay.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If you mean me, while we aren't a major player, we're not looking for $10 cards. We take them as a courtesy to consignors who provide us with better items as well, but we start them at $1. We have less than 1% no sales, and typically move the few we have into a future auction for the original consignor. If someone wants them back we send them back, our dime.

I like this approach better than PWCC's. Definitely more personable and better customer service. But I also think you guys are likely dealing with a more sophisticated consignor base. I could see a situation where it becomes problematic though if it gets to the point where your user base expands and you get people taking advantage of this courtesy by just sending you all of their junk cards and having you do all the work required to list/sell them. There is surely a dollar figure below which consigning a card cannot be done at a profit for the auction houses, and I'd wager good money that this amount is likely much higher than $10. But, as you say, it's a courtesy to take those low-value cards, and I assume one that is offered strategically so as not to lose a customer to a competing auction house who accepts both their junk and their Ty Cobbs.

I think if I were starting an auction house, I would probably take this approach as well. Just be overly generous with your resources and time and offer the best customer service possible. However, I also realize that at scale, there likely would come a point where a company often outgrows this personal relationship with most of their clients and where preventing consigners from taking advantage of your generosity (whether knowingly or not) becomes something that's necessary to guard against.

[Snowman]

I think it's a shitty thing to do to your consignors if it's just some random line item that nobody reads hidden away in your TOS. But if it's made extremely clear upfront that this is how they handle low-value items, and if there is some sort of an escape clause offered for $100+ cards that somehow snuck through the cracks, then I think it's a perfectly reasonable way to handle things. But the communication aspect of it should be made very clear to the person consigning. I don't know how well they market this information though? I know I was aware of it ever since I looked into consigning with them over a year ago (which I ultimately never did), but I don't recall how I came upon that information. I'm sure I read more than the average person consigning cards does, so it may have been the result of me information hunting moreso than it was a result of them over-communicating. I can't remember.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I could see a situation where it becomes problematic though if it gets to the point where your user base expands and you get people taking advantage of this courtesy by just sending you all of their junk cards and having you do all the work required to list/sell them.

Well we do tell people, "No, thank you, we're not interested" on a regular basis. We don't have people just mailing us cards unannounced and expecting us to sell them.

We definitely do NOT make any money on $10 cards. Realistically somewhere around $50 is where profit starts.