Was This T-206 Ghost Print Ever Identified?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

I can't post the pictures of the ghost print so here is a link to the original article where they can be viewed...

http://www.t206museum.com/page/va_unique.html

I asked Ted about this a few months back and I'm just curious if anyone here has any information. Has this ghost ever been identified? Is it an unreleased T-206 similar to the Collins? Any info would be helpful as it's peaked my curiosity.

Edited to add the photo of the ghost image:

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

It may not even be a T206 portrait. It may be overprinted with a personality other than a ballplayer. It doesn't even resemble a T206 in terms of style.

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a.

This one's super easy.

It's an E92 Mclean.

Where's my $500??

Robert

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Barry - the ghost overprint has "Cincinnati" printed on his jersey so I doubt it's a different personality other than a ballplayer.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Robert - close but not quite... The eyebrows on the McLean do not match, nor does the printing on the jersey. Notice the "I" printinng in Cincinnati especially. Also, I believe McLean's face is tilted differently in the E92 than the ghost print on the card.

[Archive]

Posted By: judson hamlin

It bears a passing similarity to Karger (see his E96 card); any thoughts? Possibly a T206 withdrawn after he moved to the BoSox.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

I actually should add that I think the player looks like Arthur Fromme. Fromme was traded to Cincinnati in 1908 and I believe the only year Cincinnati wore this style jersey is 1908 so it is possible it could be Fromme.

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

I think you're right Jon.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jon- you're absolutely right. I couldn't read the writing. But I knew the face didn't match any T206 pose.

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

The mystery player on the red overprint on the T206 Casey T206 is not really a mystery -- it is Bob Bescher, from the T206 Bescher portrait version. I think what has thrown people off is that the overprint on the Casy card only involves red ink. If the black ink was added, the word "Cincinnati" -- which appears more stylized on the red overprint than on the actual Bescher portrait card -- would have black borders added around each letter, which would cover-up the stylized portions of the letters (exactly like it appears on the actual Bescher portrait, and the other T206s for Cincinnati players).

I also think the word "Cincinnati", as it appears on the Bescher portrait card, was lifted and used on T206 cards for other Cincinnati players. Look at the T206 for Egan. The Cincinnati used on Egan's shirt is the same as the Cincinnati used on the Bescher portrait, but is actually closer to the stylized "Cincinnati" of Bescher as it appears on the red overprint on the Casey mystery card. The reason for this is that when the Egan card was created, the stylized Cincinnati was lifted from Bescher, and not as much black ink added around the borders (as compared to the final Bescher portrait).


edited: to refer to "overprint" instead of "wet sheet transfer"

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

PC- it resembles Bescher but I don't see it as a perfect match. Maybe the red lips are throwing me off.

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Barry -- imagine Bescher's face on his T206 portrait with only red ink, and perhaps a little too much red ink. All the faint shades of black and grey on his lips and cheeks would be red (and would look wierd, like the overprint on the Casey). Also, note the red ear on the right side of the Casey overprint, floating towards the border. Seems to match Bescher.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I agree it's a possible match, just not a slam dunk. I am having trouble visualizing Bescher's full face from the little bit of ink that's there.

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Yeah, it takes a while for the mind to fill it in. I initially thought the red overprint looked like George Washington.

It's difficult because the red fills in places occupied by other colors/shades of grey on the actual Bescher portrait. For example, the left eyebrow runs into a shadow by the nose on the Bescher portrait. On the overprint, it looks like one long red eyebrow.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

....that is him. Where is the red in Bescher's hat? Or on his collar? The nose to lip ratio looks about right, and the slant of the nostril and placement of Cincinatti, to some degree. But there is too much else missing.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Paul -- not sure why his face is printed the way it is, but if the printer put red only where the black/grey was supposed to be (and not where the red was supposed to be), then you wouldn't necessarily see the red hat lines or collar.

Of course, there's a red Cincinnati at the bottom, which is supposed to be red. Maybe they were trying to figure out the placement of the word Cincinnati, and used red ink for the face and letters for a test print?

The "Cincinnati" appears to be the same Cincinnati used on Egan. I guess the Cincinnati could have originated with Bescher or Egan, or somewhere else. The Cincinnati on the final Bescher portrait is definitely altered (the black borders added), so maybe they were testing the style of Cincinnati to be used on the Bescher portrait?

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony S.

It suddenly dawned on me that perhaps the overprint was of a player who'd been traded during the printing run. In that case as we see on Demmitt card, for example, they use the same picture, but change the team logo on the uniform. And it never quite looks right. That would also explain why none of the T206 Cincy cards quite match up.

So I checked the transactions for 1908 and 1909. The Reds made quite a few during those two years. None of the pictures of the traded players quite matched up with that ghost overprint until I got to Jake Weimer, who was traded by the Cincinati Reds on July 10th 1908 to the New York Giants. I just checked the T206 Weimer and the NY insignia on his jersey has that funky look like the T206 Demmitt. Then I checked the face...




So my guess is that they had the T206 Weimer card as a Cincinnati Red all ready to go, but didn't release it due to trade to the Giants. They changed the team logo on his chest and then released the card with him as a New York Giant.

EDIT TO ADD: I've been holding my T206 Weimer (not the exact card in the photo I used which I grabbed from Ebay, mine is not slabbed) next to the ghost image on the Casey and to me it looks like an exact match.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric B

You mean my T206 Weimer card shouldn't say Cincinnati

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Anthony - you could be correct. Maybe someone with more graphic skills than I can elaborate but here is a photoshop comparison with Weimer's picture placed over top of the ghost.

The opacity settings are as follows:
Picture 1 - 100%
Picture 2 - 60%
Picture 3 - 40%
Picture 4 - 27%
Picture 5 - 0%

Opinions?

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony S.

Great job, Jon. Thanks for photoshopping the Weimer and Casey images. I'm a complete luddite. Would have taken me months to accomplish that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we may have just figured this overprint mystery out....

[Archive]

Posted By: Judson Hamlin

Nicely done, Jon. So much for my Karger theory . Weimer seems to be a visual match, and the timing of the trade works. That also explains the NY on his card.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Well I'm hoping Ted or Scot chime in here. I believe Weimer is possible with an SC 150 back but I do not know the exact timing of back distribution. It would appear to me that if Weimer was initially to be shown with Cincinnati, this card should appear with an early back. I believe Ted's theory is Piedmont 150's came first.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony S.

The Weimer I own and am looking at right now is a Piedmont 150 (the scan I used was from ebay). And I agree I'd love to heard Ted and Scot's thoughts.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Not so fast...in the first image Weimer is facing nearly forward. By the fifth image the face appears to be at an angle. Does anyone else see this?

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Can only be Weimer if he turns to the right, and his left ear moves out a few inches.

I just superimposed the overprint on the Bescher portrait. 100% match. Will try to post an image.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

PC - I also tried superimposing the Bescher portriat over the ghost but I can't get the nose, eyebrows or mouth to all align. Further, they red printing on the far right of the ghost "floates". If I stretch Bescher's ear out to accomodate it, the eyes and nose no longer match up.

Now, most importantly - If I line up the Cincinnati on the jerseys as a reference point, I think the Bescher is really off. Pictures to follow.

Where are Wonka and Trae when we need their photoshop skills!

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

The red overprint head is slightly more sideways compared to Weimer. At least thats what it looks like to me. Its close though.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony S.

PC,

I can definitely see the similarity in the Bescher portrait, but the word "Cincinnati" on his uniform is in block lettering, while the word Cincinnati in the ghost overprint is an old English style font with "n's" and "i's" that get wider at their tips.

p.s. Even if my guess ends up getting blown out of the water, this is fun.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

John, Anthony, BRILLIANT!!! I'd buy you a Guiness if you were here! Great work. I'd looked through all of my Cincy cards and none matched. (An easy inspection when those little white border cards are sorted by team then alphabetically!!)


What a bit of detective work!


My Weimer is Piedmont 150. My understanding is that he's also on SC 150, factory 25 and also with factory 30. He's also on Sov 150. And those same 4 possible brands and factories with 350; plus assorted varieties of EPdG, Hindu, and Old Mill.


I note that Weimer is NOT on Polar Bear... and I'm not sure what to make of that, after the comparison to O'Hara I'd have half thought that maybe that unissued Weimer would be a Polar Bear card.


If this board ever gets sufficiently organized to have annual post awards, what John and Anthony have collectively deduced certainly should be in the running.


Frank W.

Oh, no.... now they're shooting holes in the beautiful work... I'll have to look at Bescher.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ok - here is where I tried to line up Cescher by his facial features... close

(PS - please note that I'm nt perfect at this and I did give it my best shot...)



Ok - now here is where I used the Cincinnati lettering as a reference point. When I lined up the lettering best I could, the face appears to be off left and right. Also, I was not able to get the exact tilt of the lettering to line up perfectly but this may be a limitation on my program and not a difference in prints on the card.

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

About as good as I can do with limited skills:



Also, as I noted above, the Cincinnati was altered in the final Bescher portrait (and on all the Cincinnati T206 cards) by adding a black border around the letters, which makes the stylized letters blocked. I think the overprint on the the Carey card has Bescher's face, and probably the original Cincinnati, which was then used on Egan's card (or, perhaps, it is simply a Cincinnati overprint separate from the face.

edited: Jon -- forget the Cincinnati for the moment -- can you line that up again and do it with just Bescher's face? The Cincinnati was altered on all the T206s, so it is not going to match-up on the overprint (which was likely a trial run, as opposed to a final Cincinnati print).

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

PC - I tried lining up the faces better here enlarging both photos to about 400% of their true sizes before lining up the facial features. I agree with you, this is close and dare I say, lines up better than Weimer. That being said, when you look at the full scan, Cincinnati isn't even close. So, I'm left with this...

Theory #1: It is a never-issued Weimer in his 1908 Cincinnati jersey

Theory #2: It is Bescher and the Cincinnati jersey doesn't match due to the red print run

Theory #3: It is Bescher's face with a different Cincinnati jersey

Theory #4: It is Bescher but then the jersey was changed (hence why the letters aren't close when the face is aligned but the face isn't close when the letters are aligned.)

Theory #5: All the above theories are wrong.




Here are the full scans with the facial features lines up above. Note how far off the Cincinnati is:

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Thanks Jon. You just proved my theory that the overprint is Bescher, and not a previously unknown player.

The "Cincinnati" in the overprint is the same Cincinnati that appears on the T206 Egan (the stylized font is not completely covered up with the black border on the Egan). I think it was the style that appeared in the original photo/art of Bescher, and then that font was changed for the final Bescher, but used for other Cincinnati players (e.g. Egan).

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

And one more look at Bescher and the overprint. Any doubts?

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

god, you guys have way too much time on your hands...




very cool research...keep it comin'

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

And to close the loop on the "Cincinnati" part of the overprint ...



It is impossible to know whether the Cincinnati on the overprint came from the original Bescher artwork, or from the Egan, or from another source. It may even be a second overprint, separate from Bescher's face. We do know that T206s have numerous jersey name changes, and in the case of the Cincinnati players, all of the team names appear to be altered (with black borders added around the letters). So, it should not be surprising that a Bescher test overprint has a team name that is different from the final Bescher portrait. What is interesting is that the name appears almost unaltered on the T206 Egan.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

I agree that the Bescher image is almost dead-on (as close as I can tell). However, that still has me asking two questions...

#1. Why the difference in Cincinnati jerseys as PC has pointed out?
#2. Since the ghost has only the red printing, why isn't the red piping from Brescher's hat and jersey trim evident on the ghost?


I'm leaning towards the "original" version... an unissued Bescher that was changed before final production?

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...a version of Bescher that never made it through. If it was with no hat or collar, it would have today been known as Bescher Portrait Without Cap/Collar. Maybe it is a lost Super Print -- Matty White Cap/Dark Cap; Chase Pink/Blue; Bescher Cap/no Cap Collar....

The logos/team names were certainly added after the fact, in terms of production/creation. This could be the remnants of a lost Bescher creation that just never got issued. But it is more like printer scrap than a proof, so any number of possible explanations are possible.



_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

It's not a different version of the Bescher portrait. It is Bescher's face, only in red ink. If the printer was using red where the black/grey was supposed to be, you would not see the portions of the face/head that are supposed to be in red (thus, the red hat lines and collar lines do not appear, and the light grey shadowing detail on his face has that odd red rouge look).

The red team name was probably added afterwards (taken from Egan). This is printer's scrap. Someone was testing the process.

If it is a different image of Bescher, then only the lettering style in the team name is different from the final Bescher T206 portrait. Again, that would not be unusual -- the team lettering in many T206 images (and in just about all the Cincinnati images) appears to have been altered in the final printed version.

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Well, the T206 Museum says the overprint was identified in 2002 as Bescher, but that they are looking for the source image. Maybe if the site was updated in, say 2002, we wouldn't have wasted our time with all this (some would think we wasted time in any event).