|
|
#1
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-03-2019 at 07:04 AM. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Legal Definition of Scheme Or Artifice To Defraud www.lectlaw.com/def2/s003.htm SCHEME OR ARTIFICE TO DEFRAUD. A scheme or artifice to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services. 18 USC; Any plan or course of action intended to deceive others, and to obtain, by false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, money or property from persons so deceived. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I guess what I'm saying is that Moser, Brent or whoever could argue that the customer wasn't deceived, but instead they were done a favor by improving the condition of the card. Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 06-03-2019 at 07:09 AM. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
re: this: "could argue that the customer wasn't deceived, but instead they were done a favor by improving the condition of the card." "deception" and "favor" are not mutually exclusive, nor does the law say they have to be to show fraud i would imagine. in other words, if an act is fraudulent whether it is determined to be beneficial does not make it something other than fraud...that would be my layman's assumption at least. Last edited by griffon512; 06-03-2019 at 07:41 AM. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
It's sad to see so many essentially sticking up for the trimmers. A couple articles
First, when it becomes acceptable to use a nonsense story about "I didn't know" and what happens after. https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/20...-it-heres-how/ And the "is it really a crime" thing...… https://www.autoblog.com/2019/02/07/...ed-each-night/ |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Sad to see comprehension of the English language is lost as well. Nobody stuck up for the trimmers.
|
#7
|
||||
|
||||
I'll take the bet that Brent is indicted by Jan 1, 2021 or that he turns state's evidence against BGS and/or PSA and one of their principals is indicted. $500
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Who actually has been harmed and what cards. Maybe if we had names and cards and saw a growing list of specific harm it would be more tangible.
Maybe im in the minority but everything to me is too vague as to the harm when there arent really any specific victims complaining and what amounts are being alleged... general market value going down is too vague. I know it will be hard to identify some true victims but if you cant identify any than it is what it is.. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Questioning if fraud is really a crime is just what I said. As I understand it, altering something, getting an "expert" to say it's not altered, then selling it as unaltered is fraud. Whether it will be prosecuted is debatable, lots of worse crimes go unpunished because the cases are too hard to get a conviction on (see the Portland car theft article.) Or to use your house analogy, and I'd hope the actual lawyers will correct me if I'm wrong.. If you have a house, and rewire it to remove aluminum wiring, yes, that's an improvement. And I don't think you'd have to disclose it. I would also think that if it was done recently by a licensed electrician working with an approved permit, you would want to disclose that. Of course, if there was a permit or even without one, but the work was done by your acquaintance who says he knows how to wire, but he didn't really replace all the wiring, but just enough to get it past the building inspector who is known to be overworked and as a result doesn't look all that hard... Not disclosing is a problem isn't it? Maybe not, as long as nothing happens. But if there's a fire and some one gets hurt.... https://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/11/n...ire-death.html |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.
|
#11
|
||||
|
||||
He got you there, Pete!
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
I didn't draft the statutes, David, they are what they are. There are jurisdictional limitations on the reach of federal law. Other laws might apply to your situation.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-03-2019 at 07:07 AM. |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
What Peter is trying to say is that federal mail and wire fraud statutes don’t cover the entirety of all criminal fraud statutes.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
thanks for helping these few gentlemen that are very confused about stealing $$$ from people being criminal.
|
#15
|
||||
|
||||
Oregon State Law
The reason you need the interstate commerce piece -- mail and wire, etc. -- is to get into Federal jurisdiction. But, you can sue civilly or file a criminal complaint against PWCC relying on Oregon State Law (ORS 687.011):
"Fraud or misrepresentation" means knowingly giving misinformation or a false impression through the intentional misstatement of, concealment of or failure to make known a material fact or by other means. Here's a direct link for filing an on-line complaint (notice that the website contemplates that you can file the complaint from any state, not just Oregon): OREGON DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Consumer Protection Fighting Fraud. https://justice.oregon.gov/consumercomplaints/ There is a space for identifying the entity you are complaining about if it is a website, as opposed to a brick and mortar shop.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 Last edited by T206Collector; 06-03-2019 at 07:50 AM. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Some of you guys have a really short memory. Remember the Joseph Pankiewicz threads? Cards going from 7s to 10s? Whatever came of that? Other than being exposed, nothing. If you're not sure what I'm referring to, just search this site by that name.
Same thing will happen in this case. Nothing. I keep repeating it, but most don't want to hear it. The grading companies are in on it. It's all fixed. I alluded to that over 5 years ago (post 429 in the thread below). Still the same 5 years later. Nothing changed, nothing will change. Most are focusing on the wrong parties involved instead of focusing on PSA. Until the focus is put on PSA, nothing changes. One thing I can say is that Brent has posted a few times about this subject. How many times has PSA posted? And that's all good. Keep ignoring PSA's involvement and using their service and buying their cards. We'll have this same conversation in another 5 years when another doctor is caught. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1274471 |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Laws like that are actually common. The legislators figure the people that can sell through the mail have 1000s of more potential customers that someone that has to have someone show up at a show. So they are trying to catch the bigger players. Not saying there are loopholes are that it isnt silly but thats the justification of that conflict...
|
#18
|
|||
|
|||
How many times do you have to spell it out? It's like 3rd grade here.
|
#19
|
||||
|
||||
I know. This is truly not a very difficult concept to grasp.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies | Stonepony | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 204 | 05-27-2019 05:33 PM |
PWCC Recent Closings | Exhibitman | Boxing / Wrestling Cards & Memorabilia Forum | 8 | 03-29-2018 04:05 PM |
Recent PWCC Auction | Snapolit1 | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 2 | 09-08-2016 12:50 PM |
Thoughts on this card? (trimming, stain, etc) | scmavl | Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) | 4 | 04-01-2011 11:32 AM |
Interesting Story Concerning Card Trimming and Grading | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 15 | 04-10-2002 05:43 PM |