T213 Coupon/T215 Red Cross Scarcity relative to T206 Backs

[ahumes13]

I’ve seen sources which indicate where T213 Coupon Type 1 and T215 Red Cross Type 1 are considered in relation to scarcity of T206 backs, for example http://www.t206.org/backs.php. I get that Type 1 is included because they are arguably T206 cards.

My question is where do you think T213 type 2 and 3 and T215 type 2 would fall in the T206 scarcity spectrum? I understand there isn’t a solid argument for these types being T206 cards, but just curious where they would fall in the scarcity range?

Andy

[ullmandds]

I'm not as in tune to t206 back rarities as I once was...especially pertaining to factories but I'll give you my estimation anyways!

Type 2 coupons = american beauty 350 w/frame

type 3 coupon=brodleaf

type 3 overprint = bl 460

t215 type 2 = lenox

I welcome criticism!

[Rhotchkiss]

I think Pete's analogies are pretty sound. There are some real T213 and Louisiana card experts on here, and maybe one or more of them will comment. Here is my take, I hope it helps:

T213-2 are not very rare; indeed they are fairly common. Perhaps Tolstoi, instead of American Beauty, in terms of scarcity. But on value, they sell as a common back T206 would.

T213-3 are rare, but can be found. You may have to spend some time and effort searching if you want a particular player combo, and you may have to be patient. Cost-wise, Type 3's are 2-3x more expensive that Type 2's, and are more in-line with the American Beauty, or perhaps Brown Hindu, analogy.

T213-3 overprint (pictured below)-- these are very rare, and I am not familiar with any where more than one example is known to exist (but I am sure there are a few). In terms if rarity, BL 460 is a solid analogy. I would perhaps go a bit further and liken it to a brown lenox or brown old mill. Value-wise, they are expensive but bring nowhere near a BL460 price; maybe like a black lenox (or a bit less)

T215-2 are rare. I think they are rarer than black lenox. I would say Uzit rare (relatively speaking), but with all the Drums and Uzits coming out lately, Uzits feels rarer than Drums and Drums feel as common as Lenox! Value-wise, these are probably about where the T213-3 overprints trade.

Two you forgot -- T214 & T215 Pirate backs (both pictured below). Neither can be considered T206's because they were issued in 1915 and 1912, respectively, and T206 is 1909-11. But they are well worth noting because, like T213-2/3 and T215-2, they have T206 front pics.

T214's are quite rare. Rarer than any other ones mentioned above except T213-3 overprint. These are tough to find. Value-wise, they sell for Lenox-Uzit prices

T215 Pirates are wicked rare (thats a technical term). There is one almost complete set known, and a smattering of others - maybe 20(ish) known. These cards are brown old mill rare, and they sell for brown lenox/brown old mill prices, if they even ever come up. Like brown old mills, all T213 Pirates are graded A (or should be) because they were not factory cut.

[ullmandds]

Nice synopsis but pirates are t215.

[Rhotchkiss]

Right, total brain fart/typo. Pirate backs are indeed t215s!

[JackW]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T215 Pirates are wicked rare (thats a technical term). There is one almost complete set known, and a smattering of others - maybe 20(ish) known. These cards are brown old mill rare, and they sell for brown lenox/brown old mill prices, if they even ever come up. Like brown old mills, all T213 Pirates are graded A (or should be) because they were not factory cut.

A few T215 Pirates have sold since 2016 in the $5,000-$7,000 range. Brown Old Mills sell for at least two to three times that, don't they?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...heinie-wagner/

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...dinary-rarity/

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...d-boston-amer/

[ahumes13]

Great info, thanks to all!

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by JackW

A few T215 Pirates have sold since 2016 in the $5,000-$7,000 range. Brown Old Mills sell for at least two to three times that, don't they?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...heinie-wagner/

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...dinary-rarity/

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...d-boston-amer/

Yes, common t215 pirates sell for less than brown old mills. However, I paid almost as much for my Frank Chance as some brown old mills go for. Notice in the post I said brown lenox/brown old mills, and there is a range there. But point taken, brown old mills are more valuable than all other cards listed in this thread (sometimes by a lot), unless you are dealing with an HOFer.

As an aside, I used to own the Heine Wagner- i believe it has some paperloss on front and a dimple near his head, so there are flaws on that one; not that it matters so much with rarities like that.

[JackW]

Thanks for correcting that T215 Pirates Hall of Famers are the ones that approach brown Old Mill prices.

[buymycards]

"T213-2 are not very rare; indeed they are fairly common."


I don't think you can make a blanket statement about the T213-2's. I would guess that around 60% of the 185 cards are fairly common, around 20% are fairly difficult, 10% are very difficult, and the remaining 10% are extremely scarce, with only 1-3 known examples of each card.

[MR RAREBACK]

It's to bad the t213-2 would be a fun set to try

[ahumes13]

All good stuff, thanks again. Rick, how long have you been on your T-213-2 run? I've definitely noticed that some of the rare variations sell at a premium, but good to have a ballpark idea of how the set breaks down. Ryan, I should've guessed those cards were yours, that Chance... I'm glad you mentioned the Victory's and Pirates and appreciate the info, all I knew was that they are both damn tough to find!

[buymycards]

I have been working on it for 10 years. I doubt that I will ever complete it, but that is OK. I enjoy working on it and I have learned a lot over the years, almost all of which came from fellow board members who know this set much better than I ever will.

From what I understand, most of the more common cards come from the initial printing in 1914. The 1915 cards, for the most part, are more difficult to find, and the last printing in 1916 contains most of the most difficult cards. Some of the 1916's have players with team designations for teams that they never played with.

[sb1]

I do not think it's correct to assume that all Pirate backs are not factory cut. The few out there have come from a few different sources. The REA AUT's from a few years back may have been ever so slightly cut down top or bottom, perhaps not, probably due to being slightly diamond cut. There are oversize large examples out there, most of which are factory cut and exhibit the diamond cut.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T213-3 overprint (pictured below)-- these are very rare, and I am not familiar with any where more than one example is known to exist (but I am sure there are a few). In terms if rarity, BL 460 is a solid analogy. I would perhaps go a bit further and liken it to a brown lenox or brown old mill. Value-wise, they are expensive but bring nowhere near a BL460 price; maybe like a black lenox (or a bit less)

I personally wouldn't classify any T213, T214, or T215 subtype as ""very rare," but I think we just disagree on the semantics there, not what the actual numbers are.

One quibble though. I've seen 3 different examples of the T213-3 (factory overprint) Eddie Collins.

[Leon]

There are a few of the T213-3 overprints that used to turn up of the same player, if I recall correctly when I was into backs even more than now. All of these LA issues are rare relative to collecting whatever it is they (new card collectors) do today. Well, I guess not if you include manufactured rarity. And I know there are a few in vintage but not all of them. I miss some of my old cards....but i know they went to good homes.

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I personally wouldn't classify any T213, T214, or T215 subtype as ""very rare," but I think we just disagree on the semantics there, not what the actual numbers are.

One quibble though. I've seen 3 different examples of the T213-3 (factory overprint) Eddie Collins.