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  #101  
Old 07-27-2022, 07:50 PM
Belfast1933 Belfast1933 is offline
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Default No longer for saleÖ

Sorry to disappoint but I just had to get this one so bought it from Heritage while I was at their booth todayÖ

(Had to increase my credit limit just a smidge)

Last edited by Belfast1933; 07-27-2022 at 08:04 PM. Reason: Showing credit card number, doh!
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  #102  
Old 07-27-2022, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slightlyrounded View Post
pretty good way to hedge oneís business!
Maybe he'll buy it and cross it over to a PSA 8.
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  #103  
Old 07-27-2022, 08:49 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by cannonballsun View Post
SGC already has the highest priced card ever sold, the SGC 3 T206 Wagner that sold last year in REA.
With this card, SGC will have the two highest ever. Take that, PSA.
Doesn't Ken Kendrick still own the Gretzky T206 Wagner, and a PSA10 '52 Topps Mantle? Wait till he passes and those come up for sale and then we'll see about which TPG has the most expensive cards ever sold. LOL
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  #104  
Old 07-27-2022, 08:53 PM
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Doesn't Ken Kendrick still own the Gretzky T206 Wagner, and a PSA10 '52 Topps Mantle? Wait till he passes and those come up for sale and then we'll see about which TPG has the most expensive cards ever sold. LOL
If they get sold. Ken's been on record multiple times saying his cards will remain with him until death at which point his son inherits them. And, like any respectable red blooded teenage American boy, it's been had on good authority that the junior Kendrick isn't ever selling THE Honus Wagner card!
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  #105  
Old 07-27-2022, 09:27 PM
G1911 G1911 is online now
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Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig View Post
In Rosen's letter he says this back is perfectly centered

His statement that the front is perfectly centered side to side and top to bottom appears to be more accurate and perhaps it's the scan but is anyone else seeing the slightest diamond cut? To me looks like top left border is larger than top right and bottom left is smaller than bottom right. Very small difference. Maybe someone could enlarge this image and measure it out.
60/40 centering for a 9, 55/45 for a 10, no notation for a 9.5: https://www.gosgc.com/card-grading/submissions

I think the big stain is the larger problem, but this does not look like a 60/40 back.

As for Mr. Rosen's statements, this thread has informed me that he was a man of impeccable honesty and whatever he says must be true, lest it interfere with the narrative.
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  #106  
Old 07-27-2022, 11:22 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
If they get sold. Ken's been on record multiple times saying his cards will remain with him until death at which point his son inherits them. And, like any respectable red blooded teenage American boy, it's been had on good authority that the junior Kendrick isn't ever selling THE Honus Wagner card!
Figures. LOL

My guess is that card is not just famous, it is now infamous due to the Mastro story and his imprisonment, and would likely eclipse the price of any other card ever sold.

Plus, aren't there actually three different PSA 10 Mantles from the '52 Topps set, all with no qualifiers? Chances are one of the other two will eventually show up for sale then. Can only guess what one of those would possibly bring at auction.
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  #107  
Old 07-28-2022, 08:45 AM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
True "Provenance" is when you have pulled a Mantle card from its pack in the Fall of 1952.

That I did, and only paid a penny for it.








TED Z

T206 Reference
.
while my terrible copy pales in comparison to others, It means alot to me. I'm glad it has "Provenance" to have crossed your hands from your friend that pulled it from the pack. It's nice to know where they came from and you are a hobby treasure. Thanks Ted.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle Mantle50x Type2m.jpg (114.8 KB, 695 views)
File Type: jpg 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle A.jpg (208.4 KB, 701 views)
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  #108  
Old 07-28-2022, 08:50 AM
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$15.1 Mil
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  #109  
Old 07-28-2022, 12:03 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
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Originally Posted by BobC View Post
Figures. LOL

My guess is that card is not just famous, it is now infamous due to the Mastro story and his imprisonment, and would likely eclipse the price of any other card ever sold.

Plus, aren't there actually three different PSA 10 Mantles from the '52 Topps set, all with no qualifiers? Chances are one of the other two will eventually show up for sale then. Can only guess what one of those would possibly bring at auction.
There are three. Unless he sold it privately, Marshall Fogel still has one. I don't think we know who owns the third?
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  #110  
Old 07-28-2022, 07:19 PM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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$15.1 Mil
Wholly Schniekies!!! Thats alot of dough
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  #111  
Old 07-28-2022, 09:03 PM
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It is at 5.3 with a month to go. I'll guess 13. Age of the winner, 37.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-28-2022 at 09:03 PM.
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  #112  
Old 07-28-2022, 09:07 PM
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Bob C., are you working for Heritage now , or maybe Joe Orlando had input into the description? LOOOOONNNNNGGG but pretty good actually.

The hobby's first eight-figure item!
1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 SGC Mint+ 9.5 - 1985 Rosen Find - "Finest Known Example!"

The reaction is predictable, and virtually universal. Any time a paramount object sells at auction for an unusually large sum of money, the response, however phrased, boils down to a single word.

Why?

Every buyer has her or her own reply. They populate the full expanse between deep-seated appreciation for the object to dispassionate financial calculation. But that, of course, is only part of the answer, and not the interesting part.

The question is really about justification. Why is that object worth such a towering sum, they cry, in tones ranging from fascination to dismay. Explain yourself.

We'll do our best.

Here, it begins with Mickey Mantle himself, an emblematic figure of a lost and beloved era of Big Apple baseball. American enterprise enters the scene, stumbling at a key moment before assuming an enduring dominance over the competition much like the grey-eyed Okie that occupied the 311th position in its debut grand opus. The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is decimated before it is sanctified.

The print run that begins with the #311 Mantle card comes in too late and most of that high-number third series never makes it to market before the season ends. The unsold stock languishes on the Topps warehouse floor for some period of time before the decision is made to dispose of it. For reasons lost to history, the surprising method of disposal selected is burial at sea. A boat is loaded with the obsolete product, sailed several miles off the coast of New York, and pushed over the railing. The lion's share of all the high-number cards of the 1952 Topps set that ever existed is gone in an instant.

The passage of time and its spring-cleaning mothers slowly chip away at the surviving supply that was spared a descent to the floor of the Atlantic Ocean as the legend of Mickey Mantle grows through seven World Championships, three American League MVP Awards, a 1956 Triple Crown and a spellbinding 1961 home run race. The chasm between supply and demand widens, and, as the nascent sports collectibles industry begins to monetize what had historically been considered childish trinkets, the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 assumes its position upon the throne of the post-war era.

One of the pioneers of that industry was a man named Al Rosen, but the late twentieth century hobby knew him best as "Mr. Mint." It was a moniker he had bestowed upon himself, one facet of the almost cartoonish persona he cultivated, not unlike the ambulance-chasing lawyers whose commercials populate late-night television. Bald-headed and always sporting a deep tan suggestive of a recent tropical vacation, Mr. Mint occupied prime real estate in every hobby publication and convention of the era, fanning dozens of hundred dollar bills like playing cards while he beamed a thousand-watt smile as if he had just found that stack of cash on the street.

Some folks loved his schtick while others recoiled at his shameless self-promotion, but even his detractors couldn't deny that the man got the quality product. In any major card deal prior to the rise and ultimate hobby domination of the major auction houses, Mr. Mint was the man to beat. As Dizzy Dean famously insisted, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

But in the thousands of deals struck by this Mount Rushmore figure of the sports collectibles hobby, one towers above all others. It began with a telephone call from a gentleman in suburban Boston claiming to possess a large collection of 1952 Topps high numbers. And they're in Mint condition, by the way. Sure you do, Rosen thought. And you've unearthed a complete T-Rex skeleton while digging your new swimming pool.

But this was the mid-1980's--the pre-Internet age. There was no way to verify remotely and the man sounded too serious to be ignored. His father, he maintained, had been a delivery driver for the botched distribution of Topps' 1952 issue and a case of unused product had been sitting in the basement for over thirty years. So Rosen set off for the man's home, and the legitimate miracle that resided within. He recounts the tale in a video posted at our online listing.

"He put this big tray of cards on the table...and he says, 'They're in numerical order, don't worry.' So I went 268, 285, I got to 306. So I took 306 off the top, 308, 309, and there it was: 311. I lay it face down now. I took 311. I took a stack--still more 311's. Took a stack, still more. Took another stack and finally got to the end. Seventy-five '52 Mantles. Mint."

Say the words "The Rosen Find" to any veteran collector and he or she will know the story well, the hobby equivalent of "The Shot Heard 'round the World," the ultimate, improbable glory. Rosen sold the historic find almost instantly, with this card changing hands for $1,000. Rosen then bought it back six years later in 1991 for $40,000, and quickly "flipped" it again. On July 2nd of that year, The New York Post trumpeted the outrageous transaction: "Mantle rookie card sold for record 50G." The site? The Madison Square Garden sports collectibles convention. The buyer? Anonymous.

But now, thirty-one years later, that card and that man have reappeared, ready to once again make sports collectibles history and reclaim the record for the highest price ever paid for an article of sports memorabilia when Heritage Auctions drops the hammer on the evening of August 27 in this greatest edition of our Platinum Night event. The owner's name is Anthony Giordano, the man to whom Mr. Mint inscribed a copy of his seminal hobby guide, "Mr. Mint's Insider's Guide to Investing in Baseball Cards and Collectibles," with the words, "To Tony & Ralph [Tony's son], Nice meeting you at M.S.G. Thanks for your purchase of the 52 Mantle. It's the best in the world. Your Pal, Alan Rosen, Mr. Mint."

A typed and signed letter from Rosen echoes that sentiment and closes with a request to assist with the sale of the card should Mr. Giordano ever decide to part with it. But it's been more than five years since Mr. Mint passed away at age seventy. If there's an afterlife that provides a window upon the living world, there's no doubt that Rosen is watching, flashing the cover of his book about investing in baseball cards to his fellow spirits and demanding that they give him the credit he's due.

So we'll say it here. Mr. Mint, you were right. Everything that you claimed about the future of the hobby and the solitary supremacy of this particular card was absolutely correct. To those who accurately report that there are three PSA Gem Mint 10 examples of this card, we can only ask you to bring them out and put them side-by-side with this SGC Mint+ 9.5 and its "1985 Rosen Find - Finest Known Example" header. It's a Pepsi Challenge that we believe this sublime representation would win. Grading standards have changed over the decades, and if you were to crack all of the population-toppers from their respective slabs and judge each card against one another in its raw state, we suspect you'd agree that Rosen's bold declaration is validated.

Frankly, we'd take it a step further, and proclaim that this trading card represents the quintessence of every metric that has historically been used to measure value in the collectibles marketplace. This is real rarity, not a machine-stamped "One of One" on a card printed last year. This is real significance--the cross-section of a defining moment in trading card and baseball history. This is the finest example thereof. This is a spectacular long-shot miracle of the collectible marketplace, deserving of its inevitable return to global headlines and that same question that haunts all record auction sales, spoken in all the languages of the world.

And now you have the answer.

Guide Value or Estimate: $10,000,000 - up.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
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  #113  
Old 07-28-2022, 09:10 PM
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ullmandds ullmandds is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Bob C., are you working for Heritage now , or maybe Joe Orlando had input into the description? LOOOOONNNNNGGG but pretty good actually.

The hobby's first eight-figure item!
1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 SGC Mint+ 9.5 - 1985 Rosen Find - "Finest Known Example!"

The reaction is predictable, and virtually universal. Any time a paramount object sells at auction for an unusually large sum of money, the response, however phrased, boils down to a single word.

Why?

Every buyer has her or her own reply. They populate the full expanse between deep-seated appreciation for the object to dispassionate financial calculation. But that, of course, is only part of the answer, and not the interesting part.

The question is really about justification. Why is that object worth such a towering sum, they cry, in tones ranging from fascination to dismay. Explain yourself.

We'll do our best.

Here, it begins with Mickey Mantle himself, an emblematic figure of a lost and beloved era of Big Apple baseball. American enterprise enters the scene, stumbling at a key moment before assuming an enduring dominance over the competition much like the grey-eyed Okie that occupied the 311th position in its debut grand opus. The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is decimated before it is sanctified.

The print run that begins with the #311 Mantle card comes in too late and most of that high-number third series never makes it to market before the season ends. The unsold stock languishes on the Topps warehouse floor for some period of time before the decision is made to dispose of it. For reasons lost to history, the surprising method of disposal selected is burial at sea. A boat is loaded with the obsolete product, sailed several miles off the coast of New York, and pushed over the railing. The lion's share of all the high-number cards of the 1952 Topps set that ever existed is gone in an instant.

The passage of time and its spring-cleaning mothers slowly chip away at the surviving supply that was spared a descent to the floor of the Atlantic Ocean as the legend of Mickey Mantle grows through seven World Championships, three American League MVP Awards, a 1956 Triple Crown and a spellbinding 1961 home run race. The chasm between supply and demand widens, and, as the nascent sports collectibles industry begins to monetize what had historically been considered childish trinkets, the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 assumes its position upon the throne of the post-war era.

One of the pioneers of that industry was a man named Al Rosen, but the late twentieth century hobby knew him best as "Mr. Mint." It was a moniker he had bestowed upon himself, one facet of the almost cartoonish persona he cultivated, not unlike the ambulance-chasing lawyers whose commercials populate late-night television. Bald-headed and always sporting a deep tan suggestive of a recent tropical vacation, Mr. Mint occupied prime real estate in every hobby publication and convention of the era, fanning dozens of hundred dollar bills like playing cards while he beamed a thousand-watt smile as if he had just found that stack of cash on the street.

Some folks loved his schtick while others recoiled at his shameless self-promotion, but even his detractors couldn't deny that the man got the quality product. In any major card deal prior to the rise and ultimate hobby domination of the major auction houses, Mr. Mint was the man to beat. As Dizzy Dean famously insisted, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

But in the thousands of deals struck by this Mount Rushmore figure of the sports collectibles hobby, one towers above all others. It began with a telephone call from a gentleman in suburban Boston claiming to possess a large collection of 1952 Topps high numbers. And they're in Mint condition, by the way. Sure you do, Rosen thought. And you've unearthed a complete T-Rex skeleton while digging your new swimming pool.

But this was the mid-1980's--the pre-Internet age. There was no way to verify remotely and the man sounded too serious to be ignored. His father, he maintained, had been a delivery driver for the botched distribution of Topps' 1952 issue and a case of unused product had been sitting in the basement for over thirty years. So Rosen set off for the man's home, and the legitimate miracle that resided within. He recounts the tale in a video posted at our online listing.

"He put this big tray of cards on the table...and he says, 'They're in numerical order, don't worry.' So I went 268, 285, I got to 306. So I took 306 off the top, 308, 309, and there it was: 311. I lay it face down now. I took 311. I took a stack--still more 311's. Took a stack, still more. Took another stack and finally got to the end. Seventy-five '52 Mantles. Mint."

Say the words "The Rosen Find" to any veteran collector and he or she will know the story well, the hobby equivalent of "The Shot Heard 'round the World," the ultimate, improbable glory. Rosen sold the historic find almost instantly, with this card changing hands for $1,000. Rosen then bought it back six years later in 1991 for $40,000, and quickly "flipped" it again. On July 2nd of that year, The New York Post trumpeted the outrageous transaction: "Mantle rookie card sold for record 50G." The site? The Madison Square Garden sports collectibles convention. The buyer? Anonymous.

But now, thirty-one years later, that card and that man have reappeared, ready to once again make sports collectibles history and reclaim the record for the highest price ever paid for an article of sports memorabilia when Heritage Auctions drops the hammer on the evening of August 27 in this greatest edition of our Platinum Night event. The owner's name is Anthony Giordano, the man to whom Mr. Mint inscribed a copy of his seminal hobby guide, "Mr. Mint's Insider's Guide to Investing in Baseball Cards and Collectibles," with the words, "To Tony & Ralph [Tony's son], Nice meeting you at M.S.G. Thanks for your purchase of the 52 Mantle. It's the best in the world. Your Pal, Alan Rosen, Mr. Mint."

A typed and signed letter from Rosen echoes that sentiment and closes with a request to assist with the sale of the card should Mr. Giordano ever decide to part with it. But it's been more than five years since Mr. Mint passed away at age seventy. If there's an afterlife that provides a window upon the living world, there's no doubt that Rosen is watching, flashing the cover of his book about investing in baseball cards to his fellow spirits and demanding that they give him the credit he's due.

So we'll say it here. Mr. Mint, you were right. Everything that you claimed about the future of the hobby and the solitary supremacy of this particular card was absolutely correct. To those who accurately report that there are three PSA Gem Mint 10 examples of this card, we can only ask you to bring them out and put them side-by-side with this SGC Mint+ 9.5 and its "1985 Rosen Find - Finest Known Example" header. It's a Pepsi Challenge that we believe this sublime representation would win. Grading standards have changed over the decades, and if you were to crack all of the population-toppers from their respective slabs and judge each card against one another in its raw state, we suspect you'd agree that Rosen's bold declaration is validated.

Frankly, we'd take it a step further, and proclaim that this trading card represents the quintessence of every metric that has historically been used to measure value in the collectibles marketplace. This is real rarity, not a machine-stamped "One of One" on a card printed last year. This is real significance--the cross-section of a defining moment in trading card and baseball history. This is the finest example thereof. This is a spectacular long-shot miracle of the collectible marketplace, deserving of its inevitable return to global headlines and that same question that haunts all record auction sales, spoken in all the languages of the world.

And now you have the answer.

Guide Value or Estimate: $10,000,000 - up.
WOW...that last paragraph is a doozy!
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  #114  
Old 07-28-2022, 09:17 PM
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WOW...that last paragraph is a doozy!
But but but the STAIN. Still of course a magnificent card but I'd like to see it against the PSA 10s and 9s.
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  #115  
Old 07-28-2022, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
But but but the STAIN. Still of course a magnificent card but I'd like to see it against the PSA 10s and 9s.
yes it'd be nice to see the best all lined up...high res scans.
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  #116  
Old 07-28-2022, 09:31 PM
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Interesting at the Nationals there were tons and tons of 52 Mantle Rookie in many grades and the prices were thru the roof.
The cards were in demand and I saw many sold at some very strong prices
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  #117  
Old 07-28-2022, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
But but but the STAIN. Still of course a magnificent card but I'd like to see it against the PSA 10s and 9s.
For those at National this week, the SGC 9.5 and the PSA 10 DBack Collection are both on display in the corporate area.
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  #118  
Old 07-28-2022, 11:05 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Bob C., are you working for Heritage now , or maybe Joe Orlando had input into the description? LOOOOONNNNNGGG but pretty good actually.

The hobby's first eight-figure item!
1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 SGC Mint+ 9.5 - 1985 Rosen Find - "Finest Known Example!"

The reaction is predictable, and virtually universal. Any time a paramount object sells at auction for an unusually large sum of money, the response, however phrased, boils down to a single word.

Why?

Every buyer has her or her own reply. They populate the full expanse between deep-seated appreciation for the object to dispassionate financial calculation. But that, of course, is only part of the answer, and not the interesting part.

The question is really about justification. Why is that object worth such a towering sum, they cry, in tones ranging from fascination to dismay. Explain yourself.

We'll do our best.

Here, it begins with Mickey Mantle himself, an emblematic figure of a lost and beloved era of Big Apple baseball. American enterprise enters the scene, stumbling at a key moment before assuming an enduring dominance over the competition much like the grey-eyed Okie that occupied the 311th position in its debut grand opus. The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is decimated before it is sanctified.

The print run that begins with the #311 Mantle card comes in too late and most of that high-number third series never makes it to market before the season ends. The unsold stock languishes on the Topps warehouse floor for some period of time before the decision is made to dispose of it. For reasons lost to history, the surprising method of disposal selected is burial at sea. A boat is loaded with the obsolete product, sailed several miles off the coast of New York, and pushed over the railing. The lion's share of all the high-number cards of the 1952 Topps set that ever existed is gone in an instant.

The passage of time and its spring-cleaning mothers slowly chip away at the surviving supply that was spared a descent to the floor of the Atlantic Ocean as the legend of Mickey Mantle grows through seven World Championships, three American League MVP Awards, a 1956 Triple Crown and a spellbinding 1961 home run race. The chasm between supply and demand widens, and, as the nascent sports collectibles industry begins to monetize what had historically been considered childish trinkets, the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 assumes its position upon the throne of the post-war era.

One of the pioneers of that industry was a man named Al Rosen, but the late twentieth century hobby knew him best as "Mr. Mint." It was a moniker he had bestowed upon himself, one facet of the almost cartoonish persona he cultivated, not unlike the ambulance-chasing lawyers whose commercials populate late-night television. Bald-headed and always sporting a deep tan suggestive of a recent tropical vacation, Mr. Mint occupied prime real estate in every hobby publication and convention of the era, fanning dozens of hundred dollar bills like playing cards while he beamed a thousand-watt smile as if he had just found that stack of cash on the street.

Some folks loved his schtick while others recoiled at his shameless self-promotion, but even his detractors couldn't deny that the man got the quality product. In any major card deal prior to the rise and ultimate hobby domination of the major auction houses, Mr. Mint was the man to beat. As Dizzy Dean famously insisted, "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

But in the thousands of deals struck by this Mount Rushmore figure of the sports collectibles hobby, one towers above all others. It began with a telephone call from a gentleman in suburban Boston claiming to possess a large collection of 1952 Topps high numbers. And they're in Mint condition, by the way. Sure you do, Rosen thought. And you've unearthed a complete T-Rex skeleton while digging your new swimming pool.

But this was the mid-1980's--the pre-Internet age. There was no way to verify remotely and the man sounded too serious to be ignored. His father, he maintained, had been a delivery driver for the botched distribution of Topps' 1952 issue and a case of unused product had been sitting in the basement for over thirty years. So Rosen set off for the man's home, and the legitimate miracle that resided within. He recounts the tale in a video posted at our online listing.

"He put this big tray of cards on the table...and he says, 'They're in numerical order, don't worry.' So I went 268, 285, I got to 306. So I took 306 off the top, 308, 309, and there it was: 311. I lay it face down now. I took 311. I took a stack--still more 311's. Took a stack, still more. Took another stack and finally got to the end. Seventy-five '52 Mantles. Mint."

Say the words "The Rosen Find" to any veteran collector and he or she will know the story well, the hobby equivalent of "The Shot Heard 'round the World," the ultimate, improbable glory. Rosen sold the historic find almost instantly, with this card changing hands for $1,000. Rosen then bought it back six years later in 1991 for $40,000, and quickly "flipped" it again. On July 2nd of that year, The New York Post trumpeted the outrageous transaction: "Mantle rookie card sold for record 50G." The site? The Madison Square Garden sports collectibles convention. The buyer? Anonymous.

But now, thirty-one years later, that card and that man have reappeared, ready to once again make sports collectibles history and reclaim the record for the highest price ever paid for an article of sports memorabilia when Heritage Auctions drops the hammer on the evening of August 27 in this greatest edition of our Platinum Night event. The owner's name is Anthony Giordano, the man to whom Mr. Mint inscribed a copy of his seminal hobby guide, "Mr. Mint's Insider's Guide to Investing in Baseball Cards and Collectibles," with the words, "To Tony & Ralph [Tony's son], Nice meeting you at M.S.G. Thanks for your purchase of the 52 Mantle. It's the best in the world. Your Pal, Alan Rosen, Mr. Mint."

A typed and signed letter from Rosen echoes that sentiment and closes with a request to assist with the sale of the card should Mr. Giordano ever decide to part with it. But it's been more than five years since Mr. Mint passed away at age seventy. If there's an afterlife that provides a window upon the living world, there's no doubt that Rosen is watching, flashing the cover of his book about investing in baseball cards to his fellow spirits and demanding that they give him the credit he's due.

So we'll say it here. Mr. Mint, you were right. Everything that you claimed about the future of the hobby and the solitary supremacy of this particular card was absolutely correct. To those who accurately report that there are three PSA Gem Mint 10 examples of this card, we can only ask you to bring them out and put them side-by-side with this SGC Mint+ 9.5 and its "1985 Rosen Find - Finest Known Example" header. It's a Pepsi Challenge that we believe this sublime representation would win. Grading standards have changed over the decades, and if you were to crack all of the population-toppers from their respective slabs and judge each card against one another in its raw state, we suspect you'd agree that Rosen's bold declaration is validated.

Frankly, we'd take it a step further, and proclaim that this trading card represents the quintessence of every metric that has historically been used to measure value in the collectibles marketplace. This is real rarity, not a machine-stamped "One of One" on a card printed last year. This is real significance--the cross-section of a defining moment in trading card and baseball history. This is the finest example thereof. This is a spectacular long-shot miracle of the collectible marketplace, deserving of its inevitable return to global headlines and that same question that haunts all record auction sales, spoken in all the languages of the world.

And now you have the answer.

Guide Value or Estimate: $10,000,000 - up.
Heck no Peter, you should know better than that. LOL I have nothing to do with Heritage, Joe Orlando, or anyone. I was just passing on that the Gretzky Wagner card has a similar kind of unique provenance/story to go along with it, along the same lines of this Rosen Mantle card. And given the status of the T206 Wagner, its overall rarity, and it being the one card almost universally recognized as the Holy Grail of baseball collecting, it seems pretty logical to assume that should it ever come up for sale that it would eclipse the sale price of any other baseball/sports card ever sold. And the story and everything behind it makes it famous, and infamous, all at the same time. That just works to make it even more desirable and valuable in the eyes the collecting public, in my opinion.

I understand what you're saying about this card, and Rosen. But my understanding was that Rosen said this was the nicest '52 Topps Mantle he'd seen of the ones he discovered in his find. So, are any of the three PSA 10 Mantle cards out there from his find as well? If not, then Rosen didn't have them to compare to before making his claim about this particular '52 Mantle card. There's really no way to tell how this SGC 9.5 would stack up against any of the PSA 10s, unless we could get them all side-by-side, and examine them in person then. You can look up and show all the online images you want, but I've learned over that years that you can't really trust online images to be perfect and totally comparable. You'd really need to see all these cards together, in person, before deciding which one actually does look the best to your own eyes. And even then, different people will have differing opinions as to what looks best to them. So you'll likely never get a complete consensus as to any one single '52 Topps Mantle card as being the best and finest example in existence.

I don't think there's any debate as to the Gretzky Wagner card being the nicest looking T206 Wagner in existence though, by far. Despite the fact it was actually cut from a strip in the '80s, it is in fantastic shape compared to all the other known T206 Wagners out here. Isn't the next nicest known Wagner only graded a PSA 5, if I remember correctly? Meanwhile, in regard to '52 Topps Mantle cards, there are 3 PSA 10s, 8 PSA 9s (2 w/qualifiers), 1 SGC 9.5, and 2 SGC 9s. There are numerous high-end '52 Topps Mantle cards, but only a single high-end T206 Wagner, which I believe should have a tremendous impact on its value should it come to market. Also, if you have Registry people vying for a '52 Topps Mantle, they aren't even going to be interested in the SGC graded ones, they're going to want the PSA graded ones

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Old 07-29-2022, 11:42 AM
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Bidding on the SGC 9.5. Mantle is now at $6,540,000.00 (with the buyer's premium). It is almost there at the record level.
How high will it go ?
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Old 07-29-2022, 03:57 PM
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For those at National this week, the SGC 9.5 and the PSA 10 DBack Collection are both on display in the corporate area.
Both cards look fantastic and are drawing so much attention at the National this week.

Would love to see that 10 sell at auction and see what it goes for after the 9.5 at auction.
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Old 07-29-2022, 04:07 PM
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For those at National this week, the SGC 9.5 and the PSA 10 DBack Collection are both on display in the corporate area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrreality68 View Post
Both cards look fantastic and are drawing so much attention at the National this week.

Would love to see that 10 sell at auction and see what it goes for after the 9.5 at auction.
Do they happen to be side by side by chance?
Just curious, if they are, how they look comparatively speaking?
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Old 07-29-2022, 04:35 PM
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"Frankly, we'd take it a step further, and proclaim that this trading card represents the quintessence of every metric that has historically been used to measure value in the collectibles marketplace. This is real rarity, not a machine-stamped "One of One" on a card printed last year. This is real significance--the cross-section of a defining moment in trading card and baseball history. This is the finest example thereof. This is a spectacular long-shot miracle of the collectible marketplace, deserving of its inevitable return to global headlines and that same question that haunts all record auction sales, spoken in all the languages of the world."

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Old 07-29-2022, 04:50 PM
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I couldnt get a photo, but I stood here and just kept trying to "wipe" the stain off in between people taking photos
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Old 07-29-2022, 06:10 PM
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"Frankly, we'd take it a step further, and proclaim that this trading card represents the quintessence of every metric that has historically been used to measure value in the collectibles marketplace. This is real rarity, not a machine-stamped "One of One" on a card printed last year. This is real significance--the cross-section of a defining moment in trading card and baseball history. This is the finest example thereof. This is a spectacular long-shot miracle of the collectible marketplace, deserving of its inevitable return to global headlines and that same question that haunts all record auction sales, spoken in all the languages of the world."

That was quite the word salad!
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Old 07-30-2022, 05:41 AM
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Do they happen to be side by side by chance?
Just curious, if they are, how they look comparatively speaking?
No, they aren't displayed together. Both are beautiful looking cards. At least to my eyes, the stain people are talking about on the SGC 9.5 is not very noticeable in real life.
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Old 07-30-2022, 06:10 AM
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No, they aren't displayed together. Both are beautiful looking cards. At least to my eyes, the stain people are talking about on the SGC 9.5 is not very noticeable in real life.
Even on the giant cardboard cutout to pose in?


It's not awful, but its certainly there. Toning at the very least
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Old 07-30-2022, 06:46 AM
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I stuck my head in the cutout because why not? Itís a great card but I concur on the stain. 52 Mantles are all over the place here, upper priced but not even close to rare compared to a centered 1960 Fleer Jim Woodard FB of which there are zero here..
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  #128  
Old 07-30-2022, 07:18 AM
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I stuck my head in the cutout because why not? It’s a great card but I concur on the stain. 52 Mantles are all over the place here, upper priced but not even close to rare compared to a centered 1960 Fleer Jim Woodard FB of which there are zero here..
Rather than equating all the 52 Mantles to a rarely centered copy of the 1960 Woodward, let's make it an apples to apples comparison: other than the SGC 9.5, and obviously excluding the tilted PSA 10, how many Mantles are there that are as centered as the SGC 9.5, even if they have creases or bent corners?
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Old 07-30-2022, 11:35 AM
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One of the big arguments for grading, besides that it can be used to make people money, has long been that it gives a buyer confidence, because it reveals flaws that may not be noticed without a professional look. Thus a NM-MT looking card may get a 3 or a 4 if lucky for a tiny wrinkle that is difficult to spot in a normal context. Grading is technical, not perfectly so because it is done by a man and not a machine program, but it is not based on eye appeal but the actual damage to the card and itís state, not an eye glance test.

Interesting that now the narrative is the exact opposite, that the card is a 9.5 because it has great eye appeal and Mr. Mint said it was the best. Thus, it is implied, we should ignore that it obviously does not meet SGCís published standards, both for centering and for the stain. Even though both of these flaws are obvious, the back centering at a one second glance.

Itís a great card in great condition for a 52 Mantle. Maybe it is the best one (it sure isnít the best one because Mr. Mint, a man I have never before seen propped up as a source of honest integrity, said so). It will set a record. Iíd love to have it and never will. Mantle investors can piggyback off it and the pump on Mantles will continue as it always has, most all Mantle holders will end up making money if they choose to sell some day. And the card does not meet SGCís criteria for a 9.5.
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Old 07-30-2022, 12:05 PM
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Again....an awesome card. Everyone in the hobby would be proud to own it and even more proud if they could afford it however this is another blatant example of how 3rd party grading is not so 3rd party when it comes to biases. Those biases seem to go both ways. Some may like to write it off as too many graders, fatigue in the grading room or just normal inconsistencies that might occur in a grading room.

I am 100% certain that had any of us submitted this amazing card we would not have gotten a 9.5 from SGC. Not picking on them because PSA does his BS all the time too. Just a fact of life--not all submitters are equal.
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  #131  
Old 07-30-2022, 12:24 PM
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The letter takes this card to the next level, itís unbelievable!!
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Old 07-30-2022, 02:33 PM
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(it sure isnít the best one because Mr. Mint, a man I have never before seen propped up as a source of honest integrity, said so).
LOL. I'm trying to figure out if there was another Mr. Mint floating around that I hadn't met.
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Old 07-31-2022, 04:00 AM
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I just checked where the card is at in the auction. It is now a new record for highest price ever - $6,720,000.00. It remains to be seen where the final price will end up. There are "only" 27 days left to this auction.
As the saying goes, records are made to be broken. I think we all expect that this card will also be surpassed. There are cards which we are aware of which will be record breakers, those cards just have to come up for auction (one day).
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  #134  
Old 08-05-2022, 08:50 AM
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Bob C I have a question for you, what would the consignor's tax burden be on the card ??

Paid $50,000 in 1991

Sale in 2022

Letís say Heritage Gives him Zero commissions so he gets the hammer price minus the buyer's premium or maybe he gets a negative 5%.
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Old 08-05-2022, 09:24 AM
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Bob C I have a question for you, what would the consignor's tax burden be on the card ??

Paid $50,000 in 1991

Sale in 2022

Letís say Heritage Gives him Zero commissions so he gets the hammer price minus the buyer's premium or maybe he gets a negative 5%.
I have no idea what the tax burden would be on the card but I'd be amazed if the consignor isn't getting 10/12 percent of the juice on this card.
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Old 08-05-2022, 11:07 AM
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I have no idea what the tax burden would be on the card but I'd be amazed if the consignor isn't getting 10/12 percent of the juice on this card.
Heritage deserves far more than that. I personally don't think that card gets a 9.5 from SGC if they had not sent it in.
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Old 08-05-2022, 11:20 AM
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Heritage deserves far more than that. I personally don't think that card gets a 9.5 from SGC if they had not sent it in.
10 percent is pretty much the standard on a card of that magnitude from what I've been told. I have nothing to add on a perceived preferential grade.
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Old 08-05-2022, 02:56 PM
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Bob C I have a question for you, what would the consignor's tax burden be on the card ??

Paid $50,000 in 1991

Sale in 2022

Letís say Heritage Gives him Zero commissions so he gets the hammer price minus the buyer's premium or maybe he gets a negative 5%.
It is a little hard to say since the card hasn't sold yet, and we don't know what the final price will be. Here's a ballpark formula you can use to figure approximately what the seller may owe.


(Net Amount Seller Actually Receives From Heritage - $50,000) X 20% = Approximate Federal Income Tax Due


This assumes the seller is not a dealer, so the sale is treated as a Long-Term Capital Gain (LTCG) by the seller since he held the card for more than a year. And for federal income tax purposes, the maximum tax rate on a LTCG is currently at 20%. So if after the card sells, and Heritage deducts all it's commissions fees and so on, say they end up sending the seller a check for $10,000,000.


($10,000,000 - $50,000) X 20% = $1,990,000


Now remember, this is only for the supposed U.S. federal income tax on the sale. We don't even know if the seller is actually a U.S. citizen, and therefore subject to U.S. income tax on this sale to begin with. And if the seller is a U.S. citizen, we still don't know what state/city they live in as there could be additional state/local income taxes on this sale as well.

And speaking of taxes, depending on where the buyer lives and is having the card delivered to, there's also the possibility the buyer can end up paying sales tax for this purchase as well, on top of the actual hammer price plus the buyer's commission. So the final cost to the buyer for this card could end up being even more than some people realize.

Here's something to think about in regards to that T206 Wagner card that Golding just brokered a private sale of for $7.2M. How much would you like to bet the buyer in that private deal may have left that card in Goldin's hands, in their vault in Delaware? Delaware has no sales tax so leaving that card with Goldin could save the buyer a lot of money. The sales tax where I live is 8%, so in that case, if I had bought that card for $7.2M and then left it with Goldin, I would have saved $576,000 in sales tax. In the case of this Rosen Mantle card, if it does go for sale over $10M, the sales tax savings by having it sent to a vault where there are no state sales taxes could easily result in a saving of $800K or more to the buyer, depending on the buyer's home state and final selling price. And this is exactly why those companies that have set up vaults did so, to help attract sales and deals like this that they can score huge commissions on.

And depending on the state the buyer lives in, there could also be other, non-income taxes due as well by the seller/auction house. For example, Ohio has something known as the Commercial Activity Tax (CAT tax), which calls for all sellers to pay a tax of 2 mills (0.26%) on all gross sales made to buyers/consumers in the state of Ohio. So if the Rosen Mantle was sold to someone in Ohio for say $10M, knock off the first $1M and figure the CAT tax due Ohio as approximately $9,000,000 X 0.0026 = $23,400. And if Heritage already had reached $1M in gross sales to Ohioans and Ohio businesses for the calendar year, the CAT tax due on that $10M sale would most likely be for the full $26,000. I would assume that Heritage in their contracts has such additional potential taxes and costs coming out of the seller/consignor's pocket, in which case the seller at least gets a little bit more of a deduct for federal income tax purposes.
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Old 08-05-2022, 03:38 PM
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It is a little hard to say since the card hasn't sold yet, and we don't know what the final price will be. Here's a ballpark formula you can use to figure approximately what the seller may owe.


(Net Amount Seller Actually Receives From Heritage - $50,000) X 20% = Approximate Federal Income Tax Due


This assumes the seller is not a dealer, so the sale is treated as a Long-Term Capital Gain (LTCG) by the seller since he held the card for more than a year. And for federal income tax purposes, the maximum tax rate on a LTCG is currently at 20%. So if after the card sells, and Heritage deducts all it's commissions fees and so on, say they end up sending the seller a check for $10,000,000.


($10,000,000 - $50,000) X 20% = $1,990,000


Now, remember, this is only for the supposed U.S. federal income tax on the sale. We don't even know if the seller is actually a U.S. citizen, and therefore subject to U.S. income tax on this sale to begin with. And if the seller is a U.S. citizen, we still don't know what state/city they live in as there could be additional state/local income taxes on this sale as well.

And speaking of taxes, depending on where the buyer lives and is having the card delivered to, there's also the possibility the buyer can end up paying sales tax for this purchase as well, on top of the actual hammer price plus the buyer's commission. So the final cost to the buyer for this card could end up being even more than some people realize.

Here's something to think about in regards to that T206 Wagner card that Golding just brokered a private sale of for $7.2M. How much would you like to bet the buyer in that private deal may have left that card in Goldin's hands, in their vault in Delaware? Delaware has no sales tax so leaving that card with Goldin could save the buyer a lot of money. The sales tax where I live is 8%, so in that case, if I had bought that card for $7.2M and then left it with Goldin, I would have saved $576,000 in sales tax. In the case of this Rosen Mantle card, if it does go for sale over $10M, the sales tax savings by having it sent to a vault where there are no state sales taxes could easily result in a saving of $800K or more to the buyer, depending on the buyer's home state and final selling price. And this is exactly why those companies that have set up vaults did so, to help attract sales and deals like this that they can score huge commissions on.

And depending on the state the buyer lives in, there could also be other, non-income taxes due as well by the seller/auction house. For example, Ohio has something known as the Commercial Activity Tax (CAT tax), which calls for all sellers to pay a tax of 2 mills (0.26%) on all gross sales made to buyers/consumers in the state of Ohio. So if the Rosen Mantle was sold to someone in Ohio for say $10M, knock off the first $1M and figure the CAT tax due Ohio as approximately $9,000,000 X 0.0026 = $23,400. And if Heritage already had reached $1M in gross sales to Ohioans and Ohio businesses for the calendar year, the CAT tax due on that $10M sale would most likely be for the full $26,000. I would assume that Heritage in their contracts has such additional potential taxes and costs coming out of the seller/consignor's pocket, in which case the seller at least gets a little bit more of a deduct for federal income tax purposes.

Thanks, Bob !

With these vaults...say the buyer actually wants to have the card in his hand. Say down the road 10 years or so the buyer retires and moves to a sales tax-free state like Nevada can he then have it shipped to his new residence in Nevada without having to pay his original state's sales tax at the time of purchase ?


I often wonder what happens if one of the owners/corporations of these vaults gets indicated or files bankruptcy what happens to your cards then ?

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-05-2022 at 03:50 PM.
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  #140  
Old 08-05-2022, 05:06 PM
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Bob : Would it have been better to leave this 52 T Mantle card to his kids in his will and then they would get it at current market value when he died and they could have sold it and therefore eliminate most taxes ?
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Old 08-05-2022, 06:18 PM
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files bankruptcy what happens to your cards then ?
This issue has been discussed before. They go into the bankruptcy estate and you become an unsecured creditor UNLSSS you record a UCC-1 in the state where the vault is located to put the world on notice of your ownership of the items. If you do that you elevate to the status of secured creditor and you are able to ask the court to return your items to you. If you do not, your cards get sold and maybe you get some money after all of the case costs, taxes and secured parties are paid off.
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  #142  
Old 08-05-2022, 06:35 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
Thanks, Bob !

With these vaults...say the buyer actually wants to have the card in his hand. Say down the road 10 years or so the buyer retires and moves to a sales tax-free state like Nevada can he then have it shipped to his new residence in Nevada without having to pay his original state's sales tax at the time of purchase ?


I often wonder what happens if one of the owners/corporations of these vaults gets indicated or files bankruptcy what happens to your cards then ?
We'd discussed that very issue in other threads about taking a card out of a vault, and whether or not doing so would trigger sales tax for the buyer down the road then. First, sales taxes are all different for every state, so my advice would be to check the rules for whatever state it is you do currently live in. But as I said in some of those earlier emails, I do NOT believe you should be charged with paying sales tax if you leave a card you bought in a vault, and then take it out to bring home with you later on. The question is though, how long do you need to leave it in the vault before bringing it home so your state doesn't come after you for sales tax?

That is the $64,000 question, and there is no specific answer to that question for any specific state. If you have cards you win online or from auction houses sent to a vault, and then immediately have the vault owner forward the items to you in your state of residence that collects sales tax, I'm fairly confident your resident state's sales tax agents would be interested in discussing your somewhat obvious practice of trying to skirt the sales tax laws with you. But what if you wait say 6 months, 12 months, or longer, before taking your cards from the vault back to your home? California sales tax laws has a specific rule in it that says if you buy a car in a state with no sales tax or a lesser sales tax rate than California, and then within less than one year of buying it move to California and bring the car with you, California says you now owe them the difference of what you paid some other state for sales tax on that car, and what you would have paid California had you originally bought the car in their state. But wait at least one year or more before moving to California and bringing that car with you, and they won't ask you to pay a penny of sales tax to them on that car. Unfortunately, there isn't really any such similar rule specified in any state's sales tax laws for things like baseball cards. So, you kind of have to play things by ear and figure out for yourself how long to maybe leave items in a vault before taking them home. And be sure to check with whomever is operating the vault you are using to see if they have any rules or restrictions in place about sales taxes and taking things out of the vault. They may have certain understandings/arrangements with some state authorities in regards to sales taxes so that the states(s) don't come after them for potentially facilitating a form of tax evasion. Based on what California law says about sales taxes on vehicles, I would think that leaving cards in a vault for a year or more before removing them to take home would make it fairly safe to assume your resident state won't be looking for sales tax from you then on those cards.

In your specific case where the cards were left in the vault for 10 years, and then you retire and take them with you to your new home in Nevada, you would definitely not owe any sales tax to your original resident state. You would have to still be living in your original resident state with sales taxes to have any chance of being charged sales tax. In your scenario, the cards are never being held in a state with sales taxes. But a 10 year wait in a vault should do away with that sales tax issue regardless of whether you take the cards out and into a state with, or without sales tax. Think of it this way. Say you live in Nevada and then decide to move to another state that does have sales tax. You take all your furniture, clothes and belongings, that you never paid sales tax on in Nevada, with to your new home. No state that I am aware of is going to come along and now tell you that you need to pay them sales tax on all your belongings that you have now brought into their state.

As for your other question about what happens to your cards in a vault if the vault owner goes bankrupt, there had been some discussions about that as well. I am not an attorney, but believe that if you are renting a space in a vault to hold your cards, the treatment would be similar to what happens to property held in say a rental locker if the locker owner goes bankrupt. I don't believe your property can be taken because you are legally renting space with the now bankrupt entity, and the property you keep in that space is yours. However, if in the case of say consigning items to an auction house, if the auction house goes bankrupt while holding your items that can be a different story. In that case, you may need to actually be proactive and possibly do a UCC filing to demonstrate your ownership of property you had consigned to the now bankrupt entity to protect your interest. I'll leave it to our resident attorneys to better and more properly explain that situation.
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  #143  
Old 08-05-2022, 06:59 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
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Thatís to both for explaining 👍
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  #144  
Old 08-05-2022, 07:54 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by insidethewrapper View Post
Bob : Would it have been better to leave this 52 T Mantle card to his kids in his will and then they would get it at current market value when he died and they could have sold it and therefore eliminate most taxes ?
Short answer is......maybe.

Under current estate tax law, when a person passes, all of the items they leave to their heirs get what is called a stepped-up basis to the then current fair market value of the assets as of the day the person passes, or potentially at an alternative valuation date six months later. Initially on the surface, leaving the Mantle to his kids when he passes so they get a basis step-up and can then sell the card right away for virtually no gain would seem like a slam dunk way to save his kids the most taxes. But that only saves them the Long-Term Capital Gains (LTCG) tax on the sale of the card, which for federal income tax purposes is currently capped at 20%.

However, in doing so you are forgetting about the potential federal estate taxes that may be due on the card being left as part of the kid's inheritance. In return for getting the basis-step, it also means that same current fair market value the inherited assets are given is included as part of the deceased person's taxable estate. And current federal estate tax rates go as high as 40% once the taxable part of an estate reaches $1M, and higher. Every person has a lifetime estate and gift tax exemption that they get to offset against potential taxes due on gifts they make during their lifetime, or against the value of the estate they leave their heirs. This exemption amount under current law is at $12.06M, per person, for 2022. The vast majority of people in the U.S. don't leave estates worth that much, so they end up having no federal estate tax due, and their heirs get everything at a stepped-up basis so there is also virtually no tax due if they sell things right away after the person passed.

What we don't know is what else the person may have in their estate. If some, or even all, of that lifetime gift and estate tax exemption amount is used up by other thing's in the person's estate, or from gifts they had given away during their lifetime, that means some, or even all, of the then current fair market value of the Rosen Mantle card left to the deceased's children can be subject to the up to 40% federal estate tax rate. So in that case, the kids get a stepped-up basis and no 20% LTCG tax on selling the card, but the estate can get hit with a 40% estate tax on the card's fair market value. See the potential issue. And so you know, the current administration talked about reducing that lifetime estate and gift tax exemption amount down to around $3.5M to help fund the Build Back Better program, but it didn't go through. But still, unless something else is changed, the current estate/gift exemption amount is set to expire in 2025 as part of the tax law that passed when Trump was in office, and the lifetime exemption amount will likely go down by at least $5M-$6M. The adjustment is based on inflation, so the exact amount won't be known till 2025. In that case, knowing that lifetime exemption is scheduled to drop in 2025, unless the current owner expects to pass away before 2025, it may actually make more sense for him to gift the card to his kids before the exemption amount drops so that he at least takes advantage of passing on as much of his estate to the kids with no gift or estate tax as possible. Once that exemption amount drops, the potential tax savings from the lost exemption is gone. Plus, assuming the card will continue to increase in value over time, moving it on to his kids today can get all the future appreciation (and the potential resulting estate taxes) out of his estate. Yet he can still hold on to and enjoy the card since it is still in his family.

And I'm not even going to get into the additional implications of if he's married or not. For now, I really know nothing about the person selling the Rosen Mantle card, and would need to have virtually done an entire estate planning review and calculation before seriously trying, and being able to realistically answer, your question.
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  #145  
Old 08-05-2022, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
This issue has been discussed before. They go into the bankruptcy estate and you become an unsecured creditor UNLSSS you record a UCC-1 in the state where the vault is located to put the world on notice of your ownership of the items. If you do that you elevate to the status of secured creditor and you are able to ask the court to return your items to you. If you do not, your cards get sold and maybe you get some money after all of the case costs, taxes and secured parties are paid off.
Is it at all in the realm of possibilities that after filing the UCC-1, the court would not return the items and instead use them to pay off the pool of secured creditors? I would assume that even as a secured creditor you are not guaranteed to get back 100% of what you are owed.

If that is even remotely a possibility it would be reason enough to not use a vault. I cannot imagine the bankruptcy court is sophisticated enough or cares enough to liquidate assets in the proper manner.
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  #146  
Old 08-05-2022, 08:15 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
This issue has been discussed before. They go into the bankruptcy estate and you become an unsecured creditor UNLSSS you record a UCC-1 in the state where the vault is located to put the world on notice of your ownership of the items. If you do that you elevate to the status of secured creditor and you are able to ask the court to return your items to you. If you do not, your cards get sold and maybe you get some money after all of the case costs, taxes and secured parties are paid off.
Adam,

I defer to your knowledge, but I thought there was a difference in if you say consigned items to an auction house or sent them to a TPG who was holding on to them while being auctioned or graded, as opposed to having a valid lease type agreement where you technically rent space to store your personal items in. For example, if I rent an apartment and the landlord goes bankrupt, I've never heard of a tenant's furniture and belongings suddenly being at risk of sale by the bankruptcy court. Same thing for a bank safe deposit box or even a rental unit space. I've never had a vault space, nor seen an actual agreement they have someone sign. But I'm wondering if it isn't more like an actual leasing of space than just someone else holding your property. Interested in your answer. Thanks.
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  #147  
Old 08-05-2022, 09:45 PM
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Adam,

I defer to your knowledge, but I thought there was a difference in if you say consigned items to an auction house or sent them to a TPG who was holding on to them while being auctioned or graded, as opposed to having a valid lease type agreement where you technically rent space to store your personal items in. For example, if I rent an apartment and the landlord goes bankrupt, I've never heard of a tenant's furniture and belongings suddenly being at risk of sale by the bankruptcy court. Same thing for a bank safe deposit box or even a rental unit space. I've never had a vault space, nor seen an actual agreement they have someone sign. But I'm wondering if it isn't more like an actual leasing of space than just someone else holding your property. Interested in your answer. Thanks.
those are different forms of property rights.

If you are a secured creditor and your item is there and identifiable, the court will order its return. thats the point of being a secured creditor.
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  #148  
Old 08-05-2022, 11:34 PM
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LOL. There are hundreds of cards I'd rather have than that, including every single 1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth that exists. But the best card in the hobby is one specific example of Oscar Charleston from the 1923-24 Billiken set that is not only the highest graded, but it also has the best image quality, which is critical to a photographic card like Billikens. Plus, I know we've all been familiar with the Rosen find for the last 40 years, but shouldn't anything that went through Mr. Mint's hands be worth considerably less than it otherwise would, due to the scumbag factor? I'll await your kind and gentle comments agreeing with me.
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  #149  
Old 08-05-2022, 11:36 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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those are different forms of property rights.

If you are a secured creditor and your item is there and identifiable, the court will order its return. thats the point of being a secured creditor.
Okay, but that response didn't really answer the question at hand.

Isn't there a difference in having to file a UCC-1 as a secured creditor between giving your property to someone to do something for you, like when consigning it to an auction house or sending it to be graded by a TPG, as opposed to renting a space/unit and storing your property in it?

If you rent an apartment and put your belongings in it, and the landlord goes bankrupt, I've never heard of a tenant having to file anything to protect their property and stop a bankruptcy court from seizing their belongings. And I've never heard of someone seizing the property all the tenants have stored in their rental units, nor requiring them to have filed UCC-1s to protect what they are storing from being taken by the bankrupt landlord's creditors either. I would think the same would be the case for renting a space to store your items in someone's "vault", because that is technically what you're doing, just renting a space to store your property in.

I seem to remember in a prior thread about this when it was mentioned about bank safe deposit boxes being like these vault accounts, I believe it was you that had indicated there are specific laws in this regard that only apply to banks and customer's safe deposit box contents that protect them from such creditor seizures should the bank go bankrupt. However, aren't there also specific laws in regard to tenant/landlord relationships when the landlord files bankruptcy, such as how a security deposit cannot automatically get taken to satisfy creditors, and remains as an asset that is fully returnable to the tenant? I would assume this would go along with the fact that if a tenant stores property in the space they rented, as long as the rent is paid and current, that lease still continues and goes on and has to be honored by the bankruptcy court and/or creditors despite the landlord filing bankruptcy. And if so, wouldn't that also preclude the bankruptcy court, or any creditors, from violating a valid lease and going in and seizing property a tenant legally has stored there? I believe that is correct, and without the necessity of the tenant in having to file a UCC-1 to further protect themselves or their property.

And that is why I mentioned that I've never used a vault service, nor seen an actual vault agreement/lease to be able to see exactly how it is worded so I could possibly determine if it written similar to an actual tenant/landlord lease type agreement, and therefore possibly subject to the rules/laws afforded to such tenant-landlord agreements.

If it turns out that the way such a vault agreement is written/worded, so that it could possibly afford someone leasing a vault space some additional protections for their property being held in that space, that would be good to know for a potential vault user. Especially in the case of a vault owner/landlord bankruptcy, so a vault user's property was safe and they didn't have to worry about a UCC-1 filing to further protect it. That could be something valuable for members on here to find out about and know. One would hope that the various outfits offering vault services would have worded their leases/agreements in such a way to afford such protections to those choosing to use their vault services. It is possible though that different vault companies have different ways they've worded/written their agreements so that they don't all provide the same protections/assurances for their tenant's/users that they should, or could.

And that is also why I said I defer to the attorneys on here in regard to this issue. They can maybe help to confirm and get such info out to our members so they know if any one of the vault agreements from the various current providers may or may not be safe and protective of their items being stored in them. Or if they do need to go further and potentially need to think about something like a UCC-1 filing to further protect themselves and their property.
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  #150  
Old 08-06-2022, 09:54 AM
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If any of you are suggesting SGC just gave this card a 9.5 on a whim or because they wanted the notoriety, I think you're crazy. I guarantee that toning isn't very noticeable or significant in person. Of course when you zoom in on it at 500% actual size it's going to look worse.
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