About those Authentic cards....

tbob · #1 07-01-2009, 06:27 PM

I remember posting about 3 years ago that I felt that cards graded authentic because they had a slight trim would eventually pass the value for Poor, Fair and even Good grades. Most just chuckled, but I still think one day they will. The cards with great aesthetic appearances just seem to have a lot of wriggle room monetarily compared to heavily creased ones.
Any thoughts?

Matt · #2 07-01-2009, 06:30 PM

I prefer sharp trimmed cards to most 1s and some 2s (i.e. if they have a major crease).

HRBAKER · #3 07-01-2009, 07:02 PM

Bob,
I prefer a crisp trimmed NRMT appearance to most beaters anyday. Value-wise I have no idea if your hypothesis would bear out. Now, I would rather have a NRMT front slight paper loss back SGC10 over a trim job.

2dueces · #4 07-01-2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Bob,
I prefer a crisp trimmed NRMT appearance to most beaters anyday. Value-wise I have no idea if your hypothesis would bear out. Now, I would rather have a NRMT front slight paper loss back SGC10 over a trim job.

I agree!!

Kawika · #5 07-01-2009, 07:39 PM

Authentic cards ROCK!

Leon · #6 07-01-2009, 08:41 PM

First of all there is no doubt that some trimmed cards (AUT) will go for more than a 1 or even a 2. I do think it depends on the series and, more importantly, how the cards look. That D304 Cobby is a beaut!!!

sox1903wschamp · #7 07-01-2009, 08:57 PM

I do agree on Authentic grades having room to grow dollar wise as well as SGC 10's with a nice front appearance. I like both but would probably choose the 10 with a nice appearance over an "Auth" trim job. Wow David, there's that Joe Wood. I love it.

JamesGallo · #8 07-01-2009, 09:13 PM

I think as has been stated that it depends on the card, but in general I have an still agree with Tbob that the sigma behind a trimmed card is coming way down especially if the card is slightly trimmed. Now I have seen cards that are trimmed to the image, and that I do not like.

I also like cards with nice fronts and paper loss to the back, however I have found that often cards like this already sell for more then the grade.
The same reason I like it so do others as it makes an otherwise unaffordable card affordable.

James G

Jay Wolt · #9 07-01-2009, 09:15 PM

I agree w/ the consensus that some Authentic cards present better
then numbered low graded ones.

Here's one that I've posted here before but fits the bill of this thread.
SGC & PSA would not grade it since it was skinned, GAI slabbed it and
graded it an authentic.
The card front presents well w/ vibrant color and nice corners.
This card started me on the N284 set and the irony is, its my only GAI

Kawika · #10 07-01-2009, 09:20 PM

" . . . it makes an otherwise unaffordable card affordable." There it is. Imagine that Cobb if it had a number grade. Bucks Deluxe. And sometimes, with a card like the T210 Goostree, you just take what you can get. Not too many of them floating around.

ethicsprof · #11 07-01-2009, 09:53 PM

Bob,
you've got some memory---bringing up a point from 3 years ago!!
your being a night owl has certainly not gotten in the way of your abilities!
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Some of my favorite 'trimmed' cards are my Nagy
AUT's and an E106 Gibson backview---all of which cost me quite a bit but worth every buck.

best,
barry

drc · #12 07-01-2009, 10:41 PM

The pictured AUTH cards were better than Poor to start with, so of course they'll look better after they've been fixed up.

I personally rank altered cards as at best grade Poor. An unaltered Poor card is like Joe Garagiola. Sure, he wasn't very good, but he didn't use steroids. Where some might look at altered card and see Babe Ruth (or Honus Wagner, as the case might be), I tend to see Brett Boone.

iggyman · #13 07-02-2009, 07:06 AM

As the old saying goes.....you have to be careful what you wish for. The premise that AUTH cards will someday have alot more value then Poor, Fair or even Good grades will have an unfortunate consequence. You see, if nice trimmed cards ever start commanding premiums above what an SGC 30 might sell for. Then what do you think card doctors (both amateur and professional) will do??? That is correct, they would start trimming perfectly legit cards in the name of the almighty dollar.

That would be a depressing thought and hopefully, we will never see that day.

Lovely Day...

Matt · #14 07-02-2009, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggyman

As the old saying goes.....you have to be careful what you wish for. The premise that AUTH cards will someday have alot more value then Poor, Fair or even Good grades will have an unfortunate consequence. You see, if nice trimmed cards ever start commanding premiums above what an SGC 30 might sell for. Then what do you think card doctors (both amateur and professional) will do??? That is correct, they would start trimming perfectly legit cards in the name of the almighty dollar.

Taking the D304 above as an example, I don't think you could make that happen with a card in Fair/Good condition so I don't see it as a problem. You'd have to trim away a huge amount of card to turn an SGC 30 with no creases into a sharp cornered card.

iggyman · #15 07-02-2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Taking the D304 above as an example, I don't think you could make that happen with a card in Fair/Good condition so I don't see it as a problem. You'd have to trim away a huge amount of card to turn an SGC 30 with no creases into a sharp cornered card.

Matt, I agree 100%....trimming a Fair/Good card would be tough to accomplish without trimming a significant portion of the edges. However, unless I'm mistaken, the assumption in this thread is that AUTH cards will one day command a premium above Good. Thus, you are now assuming that the D304 Cobb pictured might one day reach the price of a Vg/Ex+ or even EX card (far-fetch but isn't that what Tbob is implying?). At that level, you can find a bunch of repectable Vg or Vg/Ex cards and trim away.

Lovely Day...

T206Collector · #16 07-02-2009, 07:29 AM

It's about true wear -- and I'd rather have a true beater than a false mint card.

From SGC Graded Cards

Leon · #17 07-02-2009, 07:34 AM

Since David's D304 Cobby is the subject of some discussion (and what a great card it is) I figure I can compare it to this one. Forget the back on this and say it's a Brunners. Now, to me, I would rather have this 30 (no knock on David's card) but I think this 30 would command more than a beautiful trimmed card like Daivid's. If this card had a crease through his face and almost broke in half, or super rounded corners, then I would go with David's. Personally I would doubt that an AUT card would usually go for more than anything above a 2, and if the 1 or 2 is real nice, then they would go above a trimmed card. Another way of looking at it, is that I would certainly rather pay whatever David did for that card than one that looks like that, which isn't trimmed.....because of limited resources. Good debate and it's very open for each person's own taste.

benjulmag · #18 07-02-2009, 08:07 AM

In some cases, there could be legitimate difference of opinion whether an authentic card is in fact trimmed/altered. The "A" designation means the grading company cannot say for certain nothing was done to the card. Even if they are pretty sure the card is okay, my understanding is that they will still give it an "A". So for cards that fall within this category, I can certainly see someone buying the card at a price significantly more than a "real" "A" (i.e, there being no question the card was trimmed/altered) would command.

Bicem · #19 07-02-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It's about true wear -- and I'd rather have a true beater than a false mint card.

From SGC Graded Cards

ok, I'll take this one!

barrysloate · #20 07-02-2009, 08:13 AM

A card that the grading companies feel is probably okay, but are not willing to assign a number to, should be worth a huge premium for the simple reason that if you just keep submitting it you will eventually get a numerical grade (and that's why so much of this is so meaningless).

Matt · #21 07-02-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

A card that the grading companies feel is probably okay, but are not willing to assign a number to, should be worth a huge premium for the simple reason that if you just keep submitting it you will eventually get a numerical grade (and that's why so much of this is so meaningless).

But as a buyer, how do I know the card is one the graders couldn't decide on and not one they think is definitely trimmed and the seller is just blowing smoke to make more money? For that reason, unless the graders make a notation on the flip, I don't think such cards will carry a premium.

JamesGallo · #22 07-02-2009, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggyman

As the old saying goes.....you have to be careful what you wish for. The premise that AUTH cards will someday have alot more value then Poor, Fair or even Good grades will have an unfortunate consequence. You see, if nice trimmed cards ever start commanding premiums above what an SGC 30 might sell for. Then what do you think card doctors (both amateur and professional) will do??? That is correct, they would start trimming perfectly legit cards in the name of the almighty dollar.

That would be a depressing thought and hopefully, we will never see that day.

Lovely Day...

I don't know if Tbob was saying it would get those those great heights but having a NM card that has a slight trim sell for the price of a 2 to me is reasonable. I have think or a few cards where being trimmed was not frowned upon. There was a recent t210 Jackson and I believe a Magie and Plank that were all trimmed and sold for huge numbers. I have also seen lesser cards sell for good money that have been trimmed. If it's good enough on the very high end it would be good enough for someone on the low end two. Yes I understand there are plenty more T206 Cobbs in high grade then the above cards, but paying 15-20K or 1K is a big difference.

I doubt we will see card doctors get into this as it is a very unknown. I think alot of things need to be looked at for a card to bring really good money.

For instance I would love a decent Boston Store Jackson to show up with a minor trim. I could get a great looking card I need for my set without having to go against people with much deeper pockets, but that may not bid because of the trim.

The cobb pictured above is another nice example as is mine below.

http://www.thetoyheaven.com/images/i.../bbcbscobb.jpg

James G

Matt · #23 07-02-2009, 08:32 AM

This thread brought this recent ebay sale to mind:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-T205-Ty-Cob...lenotsupported
a trimmed T205 Cobb sells for $1100 and I haven't found a buyer at $1800 for my SGC 50.

JK · #24 07-02-2009, 08:35 AM

I've heard of one trimmed card that sells for millions : )

T206Collector · #25 07-02-2009, 09:08 AM

You have to be careful looking at what the market will bear for trimmed cards because of buyer intent, which is sometimes to resell as an untrimmed card at a huge profit, either by raw dishonesty or having the card regraded until it passes muster. What you have to look at -- and it is impossible to see -- is a comparison of personal tastes based on equal purchase value for collectors that intend to keep the card, or resell it as trimmed.

A lot of people buy the fake Wagners in order to try to flip them at higher prices. There is as similar phenomenon with trimmed cards.

drc · #26 07-02-2009, 12:09 PM

I think trimmed cards are accepted and go for fair money when the cards are rare. There's a difference between a trimmed Lone Jack tobacco and a trimmed 1967 Topps Steve Carlton. By "accepted" I don't mean buyers like that the Lone Jack is trimmed, but trimming doesn't nix the purchase. With the Carlton, many buyers wouldn't touch it with a ten foot ball no matter how nice it looked.