Bridge collapse in minneapolis...

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Posted By: Mark T

I hope all of you guys from Minn. were not on that bridge that collapsed. I just heard about it. I know a bunch of you are from there....

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Posted By: Brian

best wishes to the Twin Cities...

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

I have traveled on that bridge before and now live in Southern Illinois. Pretty scarry

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I live 120 miles away, so all is well here, but what a tragedy.

Lee

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Posted By: David Smith

I am glad everyone is safe and that there is so far only six confirmed deaths. My question is, how long before Bush and/or Cheney come out and say Al Quada (sp?) is involved?

David

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Posted By: Mike

My 22 year old son works downtown Mpls. at a stock brokerage and takes this bridge every night on the way home. Luckily he decided to go South tonight to meet some friends. Otherwise he would have been near the collapse. (six blocks away .) He was just turning to go South instead of North, and saw a large puff of smoke. he called me on his cell phone to tell me the bridge fell. he was freaked out.....I have taken that bridge thousands of times. A massive amount of money was thrown down the toilet a few years ago, when they built a very silly trolly car (train) that runs across town, and really goes nowhere. They only people that take it are homeless, and indigant. Money was diverted for that project, leaving many things like bridge inspections, and road inprovements on the shelf. Billions were wasted. Putting needed road repairs and bridge inspections on the back burner. Only here....watch the local tap dancing begin !!

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Posted By: Sean

All I want to say is I'm saddened by this tragedy. I live a few blocks south and everyone I know is okay.

Mike...since the trolley system opened (2004) the bridge has been inspected twice 2005 and 2006. Since I do ride the train I guess I would fall under the "indigent" group since I'm not homeless; I think it's pretty sad to think that this wouldn't have happened if we didn't have a mass transit system. Since you don't use it I guess it is pretty easy to see the uselessness in it. I wish they would take about the massive construction the bridge was under during this.

That all I have to say. Good night.

Sean BH

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Posted By: jay behrens

If you are referring to the train that runs from MOA to downtown, then you are a clueless twit. If that is not what you are referring to then, then please ignore.

That train is a great thing and anyone that thinks mass transit is a waste of money needs to seriously rethink their priorities. I don't live in The Cities, but have made good use of that train. It will be even better when it gets extended to Maple Grove. Then we can stop there, hop on the train and get taken right to front of the Humpty Dome.

How is getting thousands of people off the road a bad thing? You selfish yuppie types should be loving it. More road for you.

rant off

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Mark T

I knew you were not on the bridge because i think i was on the phone with you around the time it happened.

Here in CT there has been a number of bridge disasters over the years and they rush to check all of them after something like this but then slow down. They just changed the D.O.T. budget to cut down on inspection here.... go figure.

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Posted By: Mike

The silly train that runs from no where, to some where, is one of the biggest boon doggles in state history. And another thing, thousands do not ride it. maybe hundreds. maybe not even that many. A few tourists. And if you read anything to the contrary, the figures are padded. I went by it each morning, and about 8 to 10 people might be on it. I worked downtown for 25 years, and do not know ONE person that has ever been on it. Not one. Unless you live here, and know people that were involved in the project, like I do, and know what a giant political football it was, and huge waste of our dollars. Then you, my friend better get your facts straight. If a couple billion dollars hadn't been thrown away on this tinker toy train, one that no one uses, maybe a few more dollars would have been freed up, and people would not have perished. My son was a minute or two from that bridge. He gets on 35W at Washington Ave. a few thousand feet from the bridge. He called me when the large concrete cloud went up in front of him. Back to baseball...

Edited to add; Mass transit is a wonderful thing. But how about we get one that actually goes somewhere, and one that the average working guy can use. This one was a disgrace. And incredibly poorly planned out.

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Posted By: Sean

Mike,
You're right no one rides the train...big waste of money, kind of like the war.

If you lived by it you would know different.

SDBH

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Posted By: Steve f

Monday morning quarterbacking is a wonderful thing.

There are thousands more of these and tunnels much older that require shoring up. The two bridges feeding Cape Cod (obsolete approx 22 yrs now), were built when the Goudeys came out and now carry a load 100x that of 1930s. Same with Boston's Mystic River, NY's Tappan Zee and Geo Washington etc etc. I don't know the answer, but a safe expanse of interstate has been the key to our nations' success.
I don't even wanna think of the logistics in bringing the subways up to standard. Sadly, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Will make The Big Dig look like a kid's sandbox.

My thoughts go out to the Minnesotans' especially the Fire/Rescue guys that are facing many unique challenges this morning.

Incidentally, I recently read the "The Great Bridge" by McCullough. Kinda technical but fun NYC historical/political read.

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Posted By: Bryan

Mike, I agree with you. The train is a money pit. Yesterday I heard a stat that it is estimated the train costs $20 per ride, yet the fee is $2.75.

What I don't agree with you is people do use the train during rush hour. It is usually fairly full. Beyond the rush hour traffic however, yes it is simply a government subsidized transportation tool for some of the lower class.

I take the I-35 bridge every day (well, used to take it.) The Twin Cities area is so hung up and building rail lines that they are neglecting other traffic issues. An ammendment was just passed dedicating the sales tax from auto sales to be used specifically for "transportation" issues. What was not fully understood is that AT LEAST 60% MUST be used for rail and NO MORE than 40% can be used for roadways.

Now a plan is in place to build a rail line between Minneapolis and St Paul for $1.4 billion. Not only will this train be slower than the current bus line but it will destroy neighborhoods along the corridor. In comparison, at $1.4 billion the entire 494/694 loop could be widened by one lane. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know which serves the greater good.

(Edited to remove comment directed to Minnesota's baseball card collecting token liberal.)

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Posted By: Bill K@sel

Amazing....on two counts...

1. the tragedy of the collapse and all those families and communities affected. I live in Madison but have most of my family living in the Mpls/St. Paul area who several travel across that bridge twice a day. Thankfully all are ok. My thoughts and prayers go to all those affected. I can't imagine the impact this will have not only on commuting and travel in the Twin Cities but how it will impact bridge maintenance across the country. I read a report this morning that said it would cost upwards of $1.3 trillion to fix all the bridges in the US that are not up to code. It would take 20 years to complete those repairs.

2. that some of you can hijack this thread and turn it into a bitching session about mass transit and a rail system that if it hadn't been installed would have freed up enought money to maintain the bridge even though it had been inspected every year, including 2005 & 2006. On top of that now it's political for some of you. Get a clue. Stupid is as stupid says.

Bill

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Posted By: JK

Lets not also forget that the bridge was actually being repaired at the time of collapse. The money was there to do it and apparently was not diverted to some other cause.

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Posted By: Sean BH

Nicely put Bill. I think it's sad to put the blame on the bridge collapse on building a train, but I'm indigent.

Regards,
Sean BH

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Tragic. That is what it is.

Two Rotary meetings ago an engineer with the highway department spoke, he manages about a 10 county area, I think. He concluded by mentioning what he called a "brain drain". There aren't enough kids coming out of college with engineering and physics degrees to our infrastructure maintained, nor to teach in years to come. Terrorism safeguards deter foreign professors from teaching at our colleges, it is more difficult to get those folks over here to teach.

Sympathy goes out to the victim's up there, and their families.

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Posted By: Bryan

Nick Coleman blames the new Twins stadium and the Iraq war.

http://www.startribune.com/10204/story/1339911.html

I didn't make it political. Once the dust settles it will be ALL POLITICAL.

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Posted By: Brian

"that some of you can hijack this thread and turn it into a bitching session"

Bill, you under estimate the abilities of this board.

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Posted By: Bill K@sel

Yes of course Bryan you are correct. When it comes down to it eventually it is political as to what money is spent where, what can be done to alleviate these types of catastophes in the future, and where money could and should be spent going forward. I'm sure representatives, congresspeople, senators, public officials will all bear the brunt of the blame. That still doesn't mean a thread dedicated to those involved with the recovery efforts and those affected should be turned into a politial stump.

You helped turn it political on the board.

You can take your arguments and concerns to the "Greater Mpls/St. Paul Public Funding of Mass Transit and Fund Allocation Forum" that Leon started last week. I think it's hyperlinked at the top of the page.

Bill

edited for spelling/grammar

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Posted By: Mike

I never turned this into a political stump. No particular party was mentioned. No particular politician was mentioned. No names were mentioned. But for those who live in Minnesota, and aren't aware of the massive amount of wasted tax dollars, then you must be living under a rock. All I said was that the funds for the "Toy Train" could have been better spent. Is there anything worng with that comment? Anyone disagree that there is waste in government? And mismanagment? Bridges just don't fall out of the sky for no reason. Someone somewhere is to blame. As stated, my son was within one minute of being on that bridge when it fell. He was in the concrete cloud that went up. And then down. The list of victims is not out yet. They may be friends or neighbors. So yes, I care very much for the victims.

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Posted By: jay behrens

You actually think widening the freeway one lane will make any difference? I lived in CA for for over 20 years. Widening freeways did absolutely nothing to relieve traffic congestion. It's just made it worse because people thought that with added lanes they could quit taking BART, etc and start driving again because there were more lanes.

The train line may be short and not serve a large area now, but you have to start somewhere. Look at SF's BART system. It start fairly small with grand plans. Sadly, it took over 25 years to finally get it to the SF airport, which was it's main goal from inception. At least this train already gets you to the airport and downtown. Once it gets to Maple Grove, it will make things a lot more convenient for those of us that live north and west of The Cities.

Mass transit will never work if you adding more lanes and more roads.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Sean BH

Mike,
I know you didn't name any political parties but to put the blame of the collapse on building a train? Come on. The government wastes a lot more money in other areas...we all know that. I agree with Bryan that putting a train line down University Ave from St. Paul to Minneapolis is a waste of money and will destroy many of the businesses that are there.

I take offence when you call all the riders as "homeless, and indigent;" stop listening to Joe Soucheray (whom I'm sure has never been on it either). I'm sure you have never been on it...when you do (which I hope you try; the stop at Minnehaha Falls (50th St) has a beautiful city park) you can make your judgment then.

I'm glad your son is okay, I have a friend who travels that stretch every day and he just had to wait in the traffic mess behind it.

Sean BH

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Posted By: Jimmy

news is not so good, but I hope things settle down so everyone can get back to there lives over there - last I know there were 20 people missing

take care

Jimmy

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Posted By: David Smith

Bill Kosel,

I believe your barb about turning this thread into a political stump was aimed at me.

My response.

I have heard on CNN that 160,000 bridges across the country need attention of some sort and that over all, the country's infrastructure in general has been neglected and to fix it will cost $1.2 to 1.3 trillion dollars over the next 10 to 20 years. How is that going to be paid for?? Republicans keep wanting to cut taxes and EVERY ONE knows that if the Democrats approve measures to fix the infrastructure and it raised taxes to do so, then Republicans are going to scream and howl, "I told you so".

Within the last year, the Discovery Channel or the History Channel (I can't remember which) aired a program showing what would happen if the New Madrid Fault in Missouri were to rupture and cause an earthquake like the ones which occured in the early 1800's. That series of earthquakes were some of the largest ever to hit America during the White Man's time here. There were three large ones over a time span of a couple of months with all of them over 8.5. The largest was so powerful that it caused church bells to ring on the East Coast as far away as Boston.

The show said that if just one like that hit, St. Louis would suffer heavy damages, thousands would be killed and the infrastucture severely damaged. This would cause huge economic problems for the country since St. Louis is one of the main gateways to the ports along the Gulf Coast. Trucking, shipping and rail lines would be disrupted or destroyed, not to mention pipelines. Scientists and Engineers know this and have told Politicians about this but nothing has been done.

What has been done?? A war in Iraq has been started which has killed thousands of American soldiers and injured tens of thousands more, needlessly. The total cost of fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq for almost five years is closing in on $1 trillion dollars.

For a few years in the Clinton Administration, the budget was having surpluses. Now, the budget is again running deficits. Where does the money come from to fight these wars?? Not taxes but the selling of Government Bonds. Who is buying those bonds?? China. They have almost $1 trillion in US Bonds in their government holdings.

So, beyond the fact that keeping American soldiers in Iraq is causing unneccesary deaths and injuries, that the conflict keeps the Middle East in turmoil which then keeps the World oil markets on edge and casuses higher oil prices. The War is also reaping rewards for the Defense Industry (Dick Cheney and Haliburton come to mind). THis last week, the Defense Industry announced $50 billion dollars in future contracts with countries in the Middle East. Our saber rattling with Iran has caused other countries in the region to bolster thier defenses.

Now, add on top of all of that, the American budget deficits which China is profiting from and this creates REAL problems which a lot of people don't see or want to talk about.

In short, our Government is willing to spend $1 trillion dollars on a useless war (spread out over six years) instead of $1.3 trillion (over 20 years) to keep OUR country strong and safe.

Bush/Cheney/Rove and Rumsfeld are collectively SCARING Americans about a threat which only has a SMALL percentage chance of ever happening. They are doing this while totally overlooking a threat in each and everyone of our backyards which has the potential, when combined together, to be more costly in terms of both dollars and lives than any terrorist attack.

If these politicians are SO worried about keeping Americans safe at home and the economy strong, instead of focusing on their own vendettas and personal political agendas, then they will pull the troops out of Iraq and start focusing that money at problems here at home.

I mean, what is the use of keeping Americans safe from (possible) terrorist attacks if it is more dangerous to just drive down the highway???


David

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Posted By: Brian

This will hit 300+ posts before it can get locked.

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Posted By: peter chao

I'm sorry to hear about this disaster, hopefully they will figure out the cause of the collapse and make sure that it doesn't happen again.

Peter C.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Dave Smith just laid out exactly what needs to happen for our infrastructure to be fixed. The current administration sure isn't about to do anything about it because it doesn't secure oil resources or line the coffers of the military industrial complex.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Mike

The collapse is the focus here. Not the White House. It was built during the Johnson administration. Should we blame him? Please.....

My wife came home from work, and tells me that one of her co workers, hasn't heard from her next door neighbor who was on that highway, on her way home from downtown. never showed up at work today. It will touch many here....it has touched me.

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Posted By: David Smith

It might have been built during the Johnson Administration but it is the Bush Administration who is in power now and who is in charge of keeping Americans safe.

I mean, that is ALL I hear about the Iraq War. Bush saying that, "we are fighting them over there so that we don't have to fight them here" and his scary message that "the terrorists we are fighting must be defeated so that your children and Grand-children will be safe".

Oh yeah, what was the Republican question before the 2004 and 2006 elections, which political party makes you, as an American, feel safer??

It is funny how Laura Bush is going to Minnesota tomorrow and how the politician from Minnesota put forth a proposal today which provides more funding for the country's infrastructure. Seems a little late now.

Politicians would be well served to remember the saying, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pund of cure". Going to war in Iraq has done nothing but stir up MORE anti-American sentiment around the world and given the Islamic extremists a focal popint for their violence and a GREAT tool for recruiting. All the while, it just continues to keep the focus (and money) off problems that need fixing here at home.

David

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Posted By: paulstratton

First you say "When will Bush blame terrorists?", now you are blaming Bush for the bridge collapsing? Like the bridge wouldn't have collapsed if we weren't in Iraq. Actually, I thought they were doing repairs on the bridge when it collapsed. Unfortunately we are a reactionary society, sometimes something really crummy has to happen in order for us to realize we have a problem. This appears to be one of those situations. God bless those who have been affected by this tragedy.

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Posted By: jay behrens

From what I read, they weren't doing any real repairs, per se, but just resurfacing the bridge.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: David Smith

Paul, here is the problem.

If you listen to Bush, Cheney et al of their ilk, explain things, there is a terrorist hiding behind every rock and tree just waiting to attack and harm Americans and it is only because of their forsight, leadership and vigilance that the terrorists don't. Bush CONSTANTLY keeps scaring the Americn public about terrorists and how they are trying to hurt us. That is why I said I wonder how long before Bush brings up terrorism in this incident.

Because of Bush's fear tactics, now, unfortunately, every time something bad happens, the FIRST thing people think of is terrorism and NOT that it is just an accident. Look at the broken steam pipe in New York City a few weeks ago. Just an accident but did you hear the people and what they first thought? Another terrorist attack. People were running and screaming, losing their shoes and one guy died of a heart attack. Compare this scene to all of the accidents after the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center.

After that attack, when an accident happened, people didn't immediately think terrorist attack, they thought, "Wow, what a sad/bad thing and I feel sorry for the people and families involved". The politicians back then DID NOT try and scare the public at every turn. Bush and Cheney talk about terrorism constantly and even make things up so as to keep "on point".

As far as blaming Bush for the collapse, I blame him (and other politicians) because they have been warned about things like this and have done NOTHING to help prevent it. Bush is SOOO focused on Iraq and terrorist that he doesn't see ANYTHING that is happening here at home. If he were, then he would see these other problems, pull the troops out and devote that money going for the war to the problems here at home. Other politicians should also do this. Some do but most don't. Just look at New Orleans.

Scientists and Engineers had for YEARS told politicians that the levies were in bad shape and terrible things would happen if a hurricane or strong tropical storm hit New Orleans dead on. The politicians might have heard these people talking but they obviously didn't listen or take action. Then, there was Bush's (slow) reaction to help out after the flooding hit the area.

If the war wasn't going on and if politicains didn't add pork spending into bills, there would be plenty of money to correct these problems BEFORE they became a national story and taxes wouldn't have to be raised. But instead of withdrawing troops and redeploying them where the REAL terrorists are (Afghanistan/Pakistan border area) he INCREASES troops in Iraq. This is the WRONG place (what happened to Bush's declaration that America would hunt down Osama Bin Laden WHEREVER he might be?) because now it is going to take EVEN LONGER to get the troops out once it is decided they shouldn't be there.

I heard one military person said even if we started now, all the troops and support personel probably couldn't be withdrawn safely from Iraq until at least 2009 and maybe even 2010. So, that is at least another 1 1/2 to 2 years of instability in the Middle East and thus high oil prices world wide. Thousands of more Americans will be hurt or killed and the Defense contractors will make billions of more dollars. Treasury securities will be issued to cover the cost (Who buys those? Not the single mother of three working two jobs) so the rich will be better off and so will China. All the while, raising taxes will be debated in both Houses and very little money will be actually spent to fix the infrastructure problems of this country.

In short, if Bush wasn't so narrow minded on ONE issue, more problems in this country could get fixed and there would be money to do it.

David

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Maybe I am off base and this is too simple. By having the train should mean less traffic which would mean less wear and tear on the roads and bridges, thus making repairs less frequent. If you watch the reports from the bridge experts it sounds like this is really a freak collapse without an immediate explaination.

It is amazing this wasn't worse for loss of life then there was.

Lee

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Posted By: paulstratton

Jay,

You're right.

David,

I can see you're passionate about politics. We could probably go back and forth forever and nothing would change. You talk about the need for politicians to be proactive and fix problems before they actually happen, unfortunately this ain't the way things work, sorry. Here's a question for you...if 9/11 had never happened would we be in Iraq? Maybe, maybe not. George Bush did not create the terrorist problem, he inherited it from Billary. Maybe if Billary would have taken out OBL in 93 like they should have(and could have), we wouldn't be in this mess at all. They just sat on their hands(or was it his face), and hoped it would go away, which it didn't. Not proactive. I mean they did nothing David, not a thing. It's just a little Hillaryarilous that you keep blaming Bush for everything. If there was an earthquake in the Midwest, I'm sure you would blame him for that as well. Has Bush made mistakes? Yes, many. What President hasn't? You want high oil prices? Pull out of Iraq then. How about $6.00 a gallon? Does that sound good? That would be great for our economy. There are other factors in high oil prices, China for one. Are we there for oil? Yes. Are there other reasons nobody talks about? Yes. Will we be there for years to come? Yes. Should we do everything we can to get OBL? Yes. I was in Ganny and I would give my left nut to get him. Problem is, we can't...at least not yet.

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Posted By: Tom Hufford

This morning, in this forum, I read:

"My question is, how long before Bush and/or Cheney come out and say Al Quada (sp?) is involved?

David"

My response was going to be "Probably not before someone blames the Bush/Cheney administration for the collapse first." And I was right, it didn't take long, just a couple of more postings. Right, of course. This is the same administration that is responsible for Hurricane Katrina, the hurricanes that destroyed my condo in Florida, the California forest fires, flooding in the Midwest, and increased sun flare activity that has raised the temperature on Mars. Tax cuts have resulted in INCREASED revenue, just like they did when JFK cut taxes. The increased deficits are the result of increased SPENDING, on all fronts - not just a war.

I was a traffic/transportation engineer for 30 years, and know full well the shape of our infrastructure - not just highways, but sewers, water supply systems, waste-water treatment plants, etc. Spending money on this stuff just ain't sexy. And if our Interstate highway system hadn't been constructed back when government was expected to provide highways, bridges, public works, police and fire protection, and national security/defense - before someone discovered that it was the government's responsibility to provide for all of life's needs - it would never have been built. We would still be trying to cross the nation on a two-lane Route 66.

This is a great (O/T) forum topic. I can't wait until we discuss why gasoline (a non-renewable resource) at $3.00 a gallon is less than half the cost of a gallon of milk, orange juice - or Starbucks coffee.

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Posted By: Tom Hufford

In listing the things that the Bush administration is responsible for, I left out the one I just learned about, via this forum.

If we hadn't had the Iraq War, we could have moved St. Louis, or at least repaired the New Madrid Fault. After all, scientists and engineers have been telling us for years.......

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Everyone has all these wonderful solutions that cost money, but no one wants to pay more taxes. If these issues are that important do you make contributions to make them better?

Lee

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Posted By: Mike

No need to raise taxes or additional revenue right now. If the funds were used efficiently and honestly, there would be plenty of money to go around. But alas.......it ain't gonna' happen. I wish I could handle my finances as poorly as the government. Every time I run low due to poor management, raise taxes...And don't get me started on school spending...

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Posted By: jay behrens

The quickest way to put an end to pork spending it to not allow attachments to a bill that have nothing to do with the bill is talking about. If someone wants $10M for a local project, then write a bill for it and see if you can get it past your buddies without attaching it to medicare or some other vital piece of legislation.

Another way to save a big chunk of money would be to take away the per diem they get. There is no longer a need for it since they make more than enough money now to cover their living expenses. Per diem was originally instituted to help defray the cost of having to leave home for awhile and make for the meager money they got to represent us. This is no longer the case and this waste needs to end.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

I think David Smith is absolutely right. I mean Bush and Cheney should have been there that day the bridge started collapsing and then they definitely could have done something. If not there before it happen, they should have at least been there to jump in the water and help people get out. Where the hell were they? Furthermore, they should have rode into New Orleans and kicked all those people's asses who refused to leave NO before the levees broke. I mean everybody was telling them to get out and Bush and Cheney had the audacity NOT to go door to door to drag the idiots out of the city. And where are our leaders now that New Orleans is rebuilding itself right in the same dangerous place and only setting itself up for another catastrophe! Get off your asses Bush and Cheney and get down there and run all the people out of there! After all, you guys ARE in charge! And now that I think of it why in the hell weren't Bush and Cheney in their fighter jets ready to shoot down those Boeings BEFORE they hit the Trade Center! Impeach them now! Gosh it really fires me up to think these two guys are doing nothing...NOTHING to keep us safe. Ever since 9-11 these jets just keep flying into these buidings and bombs keep going off left and right at every mall and corner street! Come on, guys keep us safe! Oh and by the way...George and Dick, lightning hit a tree in my yard last year and knocked my Ron Lewis 500 HR lithograph off my wall, breaking the glass. Where the hell were you guys then? The Dems got it all right and Bush and Cheney are idiots! I mean just a day ago, when the vote in the house went against the Dems, they called a revote to get the vote to go their way! They're the best! I bet Hillary would have saved my lithograph!

Oh and by the way, I'm still pissed at Taft for allowing the Titanic to sink.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

to blame Bush for all the worlds evils......instead of looking where many of these issues really fall....at the state level. Granted the government is spending too much money on the war that could be spent elsewhere. No question but maybe Richard Jefferson, the democratic senator, could have taken some of that $90K that was in his fridge and helped shore up some of the levees.....or the Republican senator in Alaska could take some of the supposed bribes he's being searched for and do something about fixing some Alaska problems. Fact is, the WHOLE friggin (sorry Tbob) system is BROKE. PERIOD. Both parties suck and we all pay for it. Graft and corruption is rampant out there. Representative government....HA

And....it's not BUSH that's causing us all to worry about terrorism when something like this happens. It's 9-11 and the terrorists who perpetrated that on all of US. DUH.....since that happened (anyone remember 9-11) every time something bad happens we all think that. The government doesn't have to tell us that for us to think that........

Bottom line is that the Minneapolis bridge collapse is a tragedy. Whoever is at fault will not be determined but hopefully all the folks in power in MN and other states can learn something from it. Doubt it though.....

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Sean and I met today and took a walk down to see what we could see but they have got it so barracked off that you can't get and where on the south side of the river to see anything. I finally got a view of the North side collapse when I couldn't figure how to get out of the ramp I was in. There is a tremendous amount of law enforcement around. Sean and I got chased off the sidewalk because we happened to be meeting at a place along the route the president was taking to get back to the airport. Alot of vehicles and heavily armed men.

Hopefully they find the rest of the bodies and can move on and get all the families a piece of mind.

Lee

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Let's guarantee the Grandchildren a chance to fight in a Bush War!

Ganny was a stepping stone to Iraq.
Anyone in middle America, and religious right that still believes that we went into the Ganny sands to get OBL. ... WAKE UP!

If you can read, and you want to keep your grandkids out of a Bush War.

All you have to do is check out:

The Project for the New American Century

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_louise_010603_pnac.html


The Project for the New Ameican Century, didn't close down, they just moved their office to the White House.............

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Posted By: paulstratton

There you go again Joe, railing against the "investors".

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

GW's Texas Oil Boys ... are investors.......

As was Kenny Boy Lay of Enron fame.

All Bush family bed fellows.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Mary has been reading way too much Chomsky...and Joe "Doomsday" Pelaez has been reading too much Mary. That movie with Ice-T about human hunting was almost as bad as that article. Cheney only shoots people by accident.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think this discussion has gotten a little side-tracked.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Bush and Cheney should have personally held the bridge up or stood in the way of the planes that hit the Trade Center.

What is more relevant is that the majority of the American people have lost faith in our political leaders. For better or worse, there will be a regime change in 2009 and much of it will be a backlash against the profound failure of the last eight years.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Mary's article and some of the above like-minded posts - shining examples of what passes for cogent political and foreign policy analysis - at least on the Left - in today's dumbed-down society. I feel like I'm reading the Daily KOS.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The best analogy I can come up with as to what Bush/Cheney is trying to do to the US and the world is that they want it to look like the world as depicted in the original movie version of Rollerball, where there were no more countries, just major corporations running everything.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.