The difference between lucite holders and slabs

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

I just read an interesting post on another thread by Barry Sloate, which has prompted this post.

Barry stated, "One of the topics that I actually find amusing is the debate between raw and slabbed, and the bickering that ensues. What's particularly funny to me is many of the people who hate slabbed cards will take their raws cards and store them in screw down holders. When you think about it, is there really much of a difference between a plastic slab and a lucite holder? The former has a label placed on it by a third party, and that singular opinion seems to be a constant source of dismay among various collectors. It seems like so much fighting is over so small a distinction. But that's why I say I find the board fascinating."

I happen to be one of those individuals that hate slabs, and use lucite screwdown holders. Although both lucite and slabs can physically protect cards, that is where the similarity ends.

I use the lucite screwdown holders to display my baseball collection. The lucite holders come in many sizes that "protect" cards, photos, cabinet cards, etc. In addition to protecting my collection, the lucites are aesthetically pleasing to view.

The main purpose of the slabs is not to protect cards, but to generate a huge revenue stream for the grading companies. The grading companies realize that there is money to be made "slabbing cards," because they have created the illusion that if a card is slabbed "it's safer to buy." If it is slabbed then the card must be real, unaltered, not trimmed nor bleached or soaked. Unfortunately, this is nothing but an illusion, because every day cards are slabbed that are fakes, altered, trimmed, bleached, and soaked. The individuals that submit cards really have no idea who the person is at the grading company that will be giving their card a "subjective" grade. Having seen mistakes too numerous to mention, I can only imagine what qualifications and experience or lack there of that some of these expert graders may have.

In addition to the "safer to buy" myth, the grading companies also capitalize on the fact that they realize many collectors are competitive. To strengthen "brand loyalty" further, the concept of the card registry was created to capitalize on this "I have the top set" type of collector.

Let there be no mistake with regards to slabbing...you need only to follow the money. The grading companies and the individuals selling these artifically inflated priced slabbed cards are the ones making the large profits.

My lucite holders have screws, but the slabbing companies are screwing the hobby. That's the differences that I see.


Patrick

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Oh boy, here we go again:

"The main purpose of the slabs is not to protect cards, but to generate a huge revenue stream for the grading companies."

Incorrect - sure, like most businesses, these companies are doing what they do to earn a profit. There is nothing wrong with that - and if you think there is, perhaps you shouldnt be buying food from a grocery store, buying cars from auto dealerships, or taking your clothes to the dry cleaners (after all, they are all trying to make money as well). Oh, and the slabs do protect the cards pretty damn well (excluding the psa condem slabs).

"The grading companies realize that there is money to be made "slabbing cards," because they have created the illusion that if a card is slabbed "it's safer to buy." If it is slabbed then the card must be real, unaltered, not trimmed nor bleached or soaked. Unfortunately, this is nothing but an illusion, because every day cards are slabbed that are fakes, altered, trimmed, bleached, and soaked."

True and False - the grading companies have not "created an illusion". They catch far more fakes then they let pass. If you really think there wouldnt be more scams and fakes sold without grading companies, you are kidding yourself. Like it or not, they serve a purpose.


"The individuals that submit cards really have no idea who the person is at the grading company that will be giving their card a "subjective" grade. Having seen mistakes too numberous to mention, I can only imagine what qualifications and experiece or lack there of that some of these expert graders may have."

Yes, I do not know who is grading my cards. I also dont always agree with them. However, by choosing a company (SGC) that I feel does hire graders who are qualified I am doing all I can to avoid those problems. Further, I'd rather have the slabs "subjective" grade rather than rely on a dealer's (who is trying to make as much a profit as possible) subjective and usually inflated grade. At least with the grading company, there shouldnt be any conflict of interest.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<"If it is slabbed then the card must be real, unaltered, not trimmed nor bleached or soaked.">

ah...but now soaking and laying down a corner is acceptable. Doug Allen said so and PSA is going along with it, despite their own grading standards.

Aside from the top well-known graders, I have very little faith in their ability to catch altered cards. Forget about the advanced alterations, those are a given. It's when they are intentionally made to look doctored and still pass, that's a problem.

I'm curious what experience the very basic graders have. My guess is most are middle school students working on a parental waiver. LOL.

Kevin

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

I guess my point was that if you are strictly a collector, who has plenty of experience collecting, slabbing has only served to drive prices up.

For the record, I choose not to be one of the "slabbing sheep."

Patrick

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<"Oh, and the slabs do protect the cards pretty damn well (excluding the psa condem slabs).">

In reality the condoms, although very ugly, are great at protecting cards.

Look very closely with at a loupe at a PSA graded card that has been in a holder for a couple years. Those cards have pushed in edges and loss of tone from the edge rails. Some would not get the same grade if resubmitted just for that reason. Worse yet, because the rails remove toning, it would look trimmed to some graders.

I hate to say it but if you collect graded cards, card condoms are your friend .


Kevin Saucier

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

JK...did you miss the recent thread regarding the special treatment that was given to an auction company by a major grading company? Subjective?

Patrick

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

An anti grading/slabbing thread.
I've been on tenterhooks for days.


Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

Consider this a pro-lucite thread if that will make you feel better.

Patrick

[Archive]

Posted By: calleocho

Kevin are you familiar with an experiment done by Brucemo on the CU boards?

It involved a PSA card taped to a paint can and put throught one of those shaking machines at home depot ...the ones that go really fast

The card which had a dark border showed no damage under a loupe.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Wait a minute.

Grading is bad for the hobby?

I've been bamboozled!

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: DR

Does anyone know what happened to Linn Terry (acrylic holders)? Back in the day, I was told these holder were the best bar none.

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

I still buy my larger lucites from them. Just picked up some for my baseball supplements.

Here's the website:

www.linterry.com

Patrick

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

I don't think a graded card is safer than a card not graded. If you drop a card in a SGC holder on the floor and it breaks, the card is screwed ! If you drop a card thats in a top loader, its fine Besides, i'm betting most of you have your graded cards in a vault anyways, so its safe both ways

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<The card which had a dark border showed no damage under a loupe.>

Could very well be but I'm just going with what I see. sorry to say, too much of. So far Goudey's seem to take the biggest beating. Look very close at the border-edge of a slighly loose card in a PSA holder.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dylan

Im all for the grading really. Its better then not having grading esp for obscure issues. Its the people paying 2,000 grand for a psa 5 while only paying $400 for a psa 4 that screws it all up in my opinion. Way too much emphasis on the grade. I understand paying a large premium for a NM-MT card over an EX card but paying 1000% more for a card graded 1 tier higher? Ridiculous..

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Pat - I dont use PSA - as stated, I use SGC. If and when you find me an example of SGC giving out such favors, I will consider whether your opinion is any more valid. It seems your real problem is that graded cards cost more and that grading has driven up the cost of collecting. Beleive me, I hate that it costs so much to buy a card as well. But I think you are mistaken if you believe that the increase in value is solely a function of graded cards. I believe there is more of a perfect storm here - grading is definitely one element. However, take away ebay, or more appropriately, the internet, and the influence of graded cards on overall value is minimal at best.

Kevin - sorry, should have just excluded PSA slabs in general.

Brett - If you drop an SGC slab from a normal height, it will not damage the card. The slabs just arent that weak. Even if the slab were to crack, just what do you think is going to happen to the card. Now, if you are doing David Letterman-like experiements with your slabs and dropping them off rooftops, then maybe I see your point.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<"Kevin - sorry, should have just excluded PSA slabs in general.">

Just trying to point out that, although they probably didn't plan it, the card condoms are great for protection in that particular holder.

I really have no loyalty to any one company and don't get caught up in the debate of slabs vs. raw. My collection is in a variety of holders, psa, SGC GAI, Lucite and top-loaders.

PSA is the only holder that seems to damamge the edges of cards to the extent is noticeable, simply because of the guard rails. I have not seen this with the other holders or it would have been mentioned.


Kevin

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

I agree with JK that the internet is a major factor in the escalating card prices, but I do think grading companies have contributed a little. Patrick, you must have had smoke coming out your ears when I mentioned SGC many times during our transaction. Thanks for being so nice in your emails.


edited for spelling.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dylan

I challenge anyone to find a holder that is as durable as the BGS slabs, those things are tanks!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I just noticed this thread and since it relates to a point I made earlier, I thought I should comment.

Even though I am a dinosaur of sorts, I actually think that grading is a good thing. It is not a perfect model by any means, and there is much work that can be done to make it better, but in the end grading does far more to protect the hobby than it does to undermine it. I certainly wish it were more precise, I hate the thought that altered cards make it into slabs, and I detest the game of resubmitting cards until they get bumped up a grade. That alone tells me that the standards are far too inaccurate.

The original thrust of my thread, however, had to do solely with the great divide between slabbers and anti-slabbers. Why each side can't accept the other's point of view is what I found so amusing.

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Barry, I also find the slabbers v. raw fights amusing - however, I dont think its each not accepting the other's point of view. I rarely see pro-slab collectors go out of their way to start threads discussing how stupid or bad it is to collect raw. On the other hand, I routinely see raw collectors (or more precisely, anti-slab collectors - since not all raw collectors are against grading) starting these threads or making little digs at slabs. Perfect example - the recent thread started by Don J. about the fake cobb - despite it being clear from Don's first post that the SGC slab was split open and glued back together after the fake cobb was inserted, there were two posts, both by collectors with known anti-grading views, and both implied that somehow it was SGC's error.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

"The original thrust of my thread, however, had to do solely with the great divide between slabbers and anti-slabbers. Why each side can't accept the other's point of view is what I found so amusing."

The raw collectors are so obstinate in their beliefs it is really remarkable. I completely understand why people collect raw, but when I get called a moron for making informed purchases of cards on ebay becaues I relied in part on the label on a slab, then I have a hard time resisting a response. Stop telling me that I don't know how to grade my own cards and that paying someone to slab a card is a waste of money -- I know very well how to grade my own cards, thank you, and slabbing is an investment in the value of the card itself. Third party grading ads an unbiased opinion to your purchase -- an invaluable tool if you purchase any cards over the internet.

Ultimately, I believe the raw card collectors feel they are in the minority and don't like being squeezed out of the market by graded cards, so they feel the need to lash out at grading generally.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

JK

You are obviously alluding to me as one of the two with "anti-grading views". Just get off my case....will you.
Because you really don't know me.

I simply brought out the fact that this FAKE Cobb would have been instantly recognized as a FAKE if Don (or
a dozen other bidders) would have realized that this Cobb does not exist with a Piedmont 150 back.

But, I don't expect everyone to know this. And, there was no-way Don could tell that the SGC slab had been
breached, by viewing the scan of it on his computer screen. He didn't realize this card was a problem until he
received it.

BARRY

There are several reasons why I don't trust these grading outfits and here is just one agregious example by
SGC that I posted in Don's Thread.....

"This isn't the 1st time an impossible front/back T206 HOFer has been in an SGC graded holder. The
more famous (or infamous) mistake was when they graded a Matty (portrait) with a RED HINDU back
several years ago. And, then SGC stood by this "card" saying it was legitimate......despite the fact
that T206 veteran collectors contacted SGC and challenged it."

Finally, I just received 20 - SGC graded T206's (I won on ebay) and the date (1909-1910-1911) is incorrect
on two of these card's labels. To many this is immaterial....to me it is important as it determines if I bid on it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

Whoever you are I don't need you copy-pasting threads and emailing them to me. What the hell have I had to do with this thread anyway? Try acting like an adult.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Since I collect baseball cards, it doesn't very much matter to me what they're wrapped in.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Dave- who is Roy?

Also, I wish you guys would quit cat fighting about raw vs slabbed. Collect however you want to and be happy. The little jabs and innuendos need to stop. It's very easy to read between the lines....

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

I have no clue who he is. I already deleted the email although probably should have forwarded it to you now thinking about it. Roy was part of the email address so I'm guessing it's Roy, could be his last name though. Just a little ridicilous since I had nothing to do with this thread to begin with.

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Ted,

You are right - I dont know you. But I know what I read. Your post in the other thread (which you copied the relevant portion) implies that the Cobb was an SGC screw up - "This isnt the first time" is, in essence, saying that this is at a minimum, the second time.

When Adam called attention to the fact that the cobb was in a tampered slab, you did not make any attempt to acknowledge that fact. Finally, as for whether or not someone with Don's experience should have recognized an impossible back combination, you point/position is well taken.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

See what I mean? The slabbers and anti-slabbers are at it again. I am fully aware of all that is good, and all that is wrong with slabbing (well most of it anyway). But there is no question this is a hot button issue.

If there were some way the slabbers could get it right every time, I think we might all be for it. They have saved people thousands of dollars from buying trimmed cards, yet other trimmed ones get into holders. If their grading standards were precise, you could resubmit a card a hundred times and would get the same grade every time. But it doesn't work that way, and it's a flawed system.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

I like slabbed & raw cards. I'm sure others feel the same way. It's a great hobby, so lets have fun!!! Yes, I can be annoying at times.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Look guy.....I really don't want to "squabble" with you. The example I cited of an SGC "big-time screw-up"
was meant to show that they are not infallible. And, what really bothered me about that situation, was when
it was 1st brought to their attention they wouldn't listen. Finally, thanks to Derek Grady (who in my limited
Grading card experience is the best) conceded that they made a mistake.

If you want to read more about this, here is the link.....

http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_4.html"

And Josh....look at my posts in the current B/S/T....I have 10 cards posted, 8 - SGC graded, a GAI and a PSA.
I'm not adamantly against slabbed cards; but, when I see a Graded "screw-up" (either advertent or inadvertent),
I am going to raise the flag. And, that should not be construed as "slab bashing".

Had I seen that Cobb that Don bid on, I would have raised the "red flag" sky-high. Buy, there is one problem
now on ebay (at $200+) you have no way of identifying who the actual bidder is while the auction is active.
This is a bad system.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I agree with Ted about the new eBay system being bad.

There were times I'd be looking a type card that was raw, trying to decide if it was something I wanted to bid on. Sometimes I wouldn't know much about the card (and didn't want to take years to learn, since I was only interested in buying one example of that card type), and so I'd look and see who the other bidders were. If they were people I knew and trusted, I'd be more inclined to bid.

I realize that I could just ask, but I don't like to "out" an auction. So I'd sometimes just look at the bidders.

Today I'm less inclined to bid on that card raw, I'm more comfortable waiting til one comes around in the holder.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Thanks Ted - I dont care to squabble either. I agree that the red hindu was a big screw up and never questioned that part of your statement - all grading companies make mistakes. Ive never argued anything to the contrary. I just think its unfair to label the cobb incident as a grading company mistake (even an inadvertent mistake) since the grading company didnt do anything but slab an authentic card that was removed by the end user.

I also do not construe posts pointing out mistakes in general as slab bashing (usually they are psa bashing, which Im ok with , but not slab bashing). In all honesty, however, I think some of your comments on slabbing in the past exceeded simply pointing out screw ups. I think others share that opinion. This really isnt about you - I used the other thread as an example, and specifically left your name out of it so as to not start an exchange such as the one we are now having. This thread, however, is a perfect example of "slab bashing". The problem is that the arguments are not well reasoned and that is why I began posting.

As for Ebay's new "hide the bidder" system, I couldnt agree more. I see no real benefit to it whatsoever.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...of course, is to eBay, which stands to gain the less bidders are informed about potentially unwise purchases. And, which stands to gain in the event of unidentified shill bidding. In short, eBay made this move to grow its revenue. And it stinks. Badly.

[Archive]

Posted By: mr. moses

but I think their revenue is down and that is the reason they are tweaking the bid history thing yet again. I for one won't be happy until they REMOVE the over 200. hidden bidder key to the city for shill bidders policy....
Henry Moses

[Archive]

Posted By: Dylan

Considering the amount of cards SGC grades and their reputation for buying their errors off the market, all considered, they've done a very commendable job. The Red Hindu Mathewson was a black eye, but in the end it was handled and a lesson was learned by all. No matter how educated, everyone has made a mistake or two. Considering the fact that your often paying under 20 dollars a card for grading I think they do a fantastic job. They probably spend a good deal of time examining some of these cards and they could charge more, and people would pay it. Whether you like it or not the internet has changed the landscape for collectables. Often times scans are of low quality and the grading done by sgc or psa is the only way i can get a handle on a cards true attributes. If I was able to inspect the cards I purchased in person, true, I wouldnt need a third party to tell me the grade of a card. However, not even once have i been able to inspect a card in person before purchasing. Not that I wouldnt enjoy that! The card shops in this area dont stock anything but UpperDeck, and overpriced auto's. And their isn't a single show to be found in the Seattle area If anyone is from the Seattle area and knows something I dont.. please feel free to email!

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

Fact: In today's hobby age, slabbing tends to make cards worth more.

However, the lower the grade and more inexpensive the card,slabbing may not bring much of a price increase, and may even prove to be more costly considering the fees/shipping costs.

Plus, how many times you get that "supposed" EX card in the mail, and it is actually VG ? Arghh ! Darn *!&#@%&!! Thats what I hate more than any slabbing issue.

Steve