PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Like a kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar...

Of course you are sorry, you got caught. Own it...

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[oldjudge]

It's funny reading this thread with the PWCC banner showing up at the top.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

I have a few questions for Mr. Huigens:

1) Which law enforcement agency was contacted? Did PWCC contact this agency?
2) When was it contacted or a case opened? Who's the name of the individual on the case?
3) Is there any proof of this?

My main concern is that PWCC didn't look over these cards and have questions before auction? What auction house doesn't inspect the items to a) make sure they're not stolen and b) not damaged or altered prior? An investigator who has some knowledge of the Hobby and auction houses and grading companies are going to have some questions that might be very difficult for PWCC to answer.

This also opens up legitimate concerns about the practices of PSA.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by topcat61

My main concern is that PWCC didn't look over these cards and have questions before auction?

Brent states that he personally inspects EVERY CARD VALUED AT $250 OR OVER to consider them for his stickers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Brent states that he personally inspects EVERY CARD VALUED AT $250 OR OVER to consider them for his stickers.

With due respect that's not the issue. He probably doesn't know enough about cards to spot Moser's artistry. The point is he knew very well what Moser does, and knowingly took his altered cards to sell. And maybe even submitted some for him. And maybe the partnership went even beyond that.

The flat out lie to me (and Leon) that Moser was essentially out of the business two or three years ago really infuriates me, in case you can't tell.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

Right. Moser and who else?

[Johnny630]

Verify then Trust
Court Order Subpoenas and Search Warrants for all electronic communications and records only way to find the truth
Without Above Happening This Will Be Very Difficult to Prove
Who has been submitting the cards that’s the bottom line here

[70ToppsFanatic]

SSDD as in 2016, when it involved shilling and allowing consignors to bid on their own items. The “leopards” have not changed their spots.

Can everyone say Deja Vu?

I guess this means that since people wouldn’t buy into the new “tenets” (i.e. cheating is ok unless you get caught) that they were trying to push/defend, and with their professional reputation badly tarnished plus a possibility of criminal investigations and civil torts a growing reality, they now come out with the kind of statement that should have come out immediately from a truly reputable market maker at the outset.

Clearly this is another example of a recurring business strategy/practice with this market maker; When you find you cannot get away with unethical actions, then feign victimhood and do whatever you have to do to save your own skin.

And not a mention, not even a denial, of the allegations that accuse them of being directly involved in the purchase of cards that were then supposedly altered, re-subbed and then resold?

Those who walked away from this market maker in 2016 were the smart ones.

Integrity will ALWAYS matter!

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by kateighty

Right. Moser and who else?

Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Brent Huigens
Dick Towle - Gone With the Stain
Robert Block - longtime BGS trimmer
Steve Tormollan

[swarmee]

This guy is FUNNY! Like that could ever happen...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Brent Huigens
Dick Towle - Gone With the Stain
Robert Block - longtime BGS trimmer
Steve Tormollan

The other big vintage doctors have not been outed over there.

[swarmee]

Heavy Circumstantial Evidence: BGS giving preferential grades to WJCII (Joe Clemons), former employee
Heavy Circumstantial Evidence: Gabriel Seraf replacing boring patches with SICK MOJO PATCHES

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Brent Huigens
Dick Towle - Gone With the Stain
Robert Block - longtime BGS trimmer
Steve Tormollan

Are any of these docs part of the Net54 community?

[cdogstu99]

I’m buying puts on CLCT tomorrow.

I can see this leading to PSA needing to repurchase altered cards that are likely worth a fraction of their original value.

Even if they weren’t in cahoots with PWCC, it has been proven that their grading capabilities are horrendous. Reputation completely tarnished with a high likelihood that their future grading revenues decline significantly.

And if they were in cahoots, this ship is going to sink even quicker.


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[MULLINS5]

https://mobile.twitter.com/darrenrovell

[CobbSpikedMe]

Uh oh, we're getting some attention.

[leaflover]

I see this whole mess ending very badly for everyone. Dealers, collectors, investors AND TPG's alike. How in the world will PSA be able to buy back all of those altered cards, that got by them, at the prices that their monthly SMR says they are worth?
After all CEO Joe O. has signed off "Taking My Hacks" each and every month with "Never get cheated".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by leaflover

I see this whole mess ending very badly for everyone. Dealers, collectors, investors AND TPG's alike. How in the world will PSA be able to buy back all of those altered cards, that got by them, at the prices that their monthly SMR says they are worth?
After all CEO Joe O. has signed off "Taking My Hacks" each and every month with "Never get cheated".

Some expect they'll fight tooth and nail on each and every one on which a buyback is requested.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Some expect they'll fight tooth and nail on each and every one on which a buyback is requested.

Actually in this case PSA has apparently found a willing party to cover those costs instead of going to jail for being party to a fraud.

I expect that as cards are shown to be altered and traceable to PWCC they (PWCC) will make restitution for them and turn in the cards to PSA. Meanwhile, PSA will continue to stand behind their brand and methods.

Unless forced by legal actions to disclose the full breadth of possible affected cards there is no way PSA would ever issue a comprehensive flip list. Ultimately only those cards that can shown to be doctored (along the lines of what has been shown on BO) will ever be dealt with. The rest will stay in their existing slabs and continue to be regarded as the real deal by those who are not aware of this situation. If submitted for review PSA has no incentive to change the original opinion, because doing so would undermine the perception of their brand.

If you have any doubts about this scenario coming to pass just go back a few years and see what happened to the majority of the “late model” vintage cellos with stars showing that made it into slabs and are still being bought, sold and exchanged in the hobby today.

This isn’t like Johnson & Johnson and the Tylenol problem in the 80s.

[vintagehofrookies]

there's a reason why I have never and will never purchase from PWCC. They have always been scammers and whether you want to believe it or not, they WILL ALWAYS be scammers. So once this all blows over and all the idiots who were blatantly bidding on not only shilled auctions but altered cards to boot and who are now complaining about said auctions because now they have an overpriced altered card,well guess what? they WILL be back buying from PWCC again lol, why? because people are idiots. PWCC will keep on doing all the shady things they have been doing this whole time, why you ask?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As long as there's money to be made, there will always be scammers. As long as there are consignments services, the scammers will hide behind them and when fraud is exposed the consignors will play dumb and pass the blame onto the consignees and the process will repeat itself until people stop paying the exorbitant prices these shilled auctions are selling for.

Also, please tell me that there isn't a single person that didn't see one of the TPG companies being corrupt lol. I mean, they are an open door for corruption! All these idiots who swear by PSA are the same ones who are gonna be crying when their PSA 8 1951 Mantle they paid almost 6 figures for is really an altered card worth $5k lol

As a side note, I can't help but get the feeling this situation is the first of many of the dominoes to fall which will in turn burst this massive bubble our hobby is in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

there's a reason why I have never and will never purchase from PWCC. They have always been scammers and whether you want to believe it or not, they WILL ALWAYS be scammers. So once this all blows over and all the idiots who were blatantly bidding on not only shilled auctions but altered cards to boot and who are now complaining about said auctions because now they have an overpriced altered card,well guess what? they WILL be back buying from PWCC again lol, why? because people are idiots. PWCC will keep on doing all the shady things they have been doing this whole time, why you ask?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As long as there's money to be made, there will always be scammers. As long as there are consignments services, the scammers will hide behind them and when fraud is exposed the consignors will play dumb and pass the blame onto the consignees and the process will repeat itself until people stop paying the exorbitant prices these shilled auctions are selling for.

As a side note, I can't help but get the feeling this situation is the first of many of the dominoes to fall which will in turn burst this massive bubble our hobby is in.

15 years of selling altered cards, likely from multiple sources not just one, and we get a golly we're sorry about all the Moser cards.

[vintagehofrookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

15 years of selling altered cards, likely from multiple sources not just one, and we get a golly we're sorry about all the Moser cards.

Greed is the real backbone of our hobby

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

Greed is the real backbone of our hobby

The root of all evil. Truer words...

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

there's a reason why I have never and will never purchase from PWCC. They have always been scammers and whether you want to believe it or not, they WILL ALWAYS be scammers. So once this all blows over and all the idiots who were blatantly bidding on not only shilled auctions but altered cards to boot and who are now complaining about said auctions because now they have an overpriced altered card,well guess what? they WILL be back buying from PWCC again lol, why? because people are idiots. PWCC will keep on doing all the shady things they have been doing this whole time, why you ask?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As long as there's money to be made, there will always be scammers. As long as there are consignments services, the scammers will hide behind them and when fraud is exposed the consignors will play dumb and pass the blame onto the consignees and the process will repeat itself until people stop paying the exorbitant prices these shilled auctions are selling for.

Also, please tell me that there isn't a single person that didn't see one of the TPG companies being corrupt lol. I mean, they are an open door for corruption! All these idiots who swear by PSA are the same ones who are gonna be crying when their PSA 8 1951 Mantle they paid almost 6 figures for is really an altered card worth $5k lol

As a side note, I can't help but get the feeling this situation is the first of many of the dominoes to fall which will in turn burst this massive bubble our hobby is in.

I have to agree wholeheartedly, and that's why my fat fanny is so chaffed. I knew in my gut they were doing this all along, and after seeing the facts, now the picture is very clear.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by cdogstu99

I’m buying puts on CLCT tomorrow.

I can see this leading to PSA needing to repurchase altered cards that are likely worth a fraction of their original value.

Even if they weren’t in cahoots with PWCC, it has been proven that their grading capabilities are horrendous. Reputation completely tarnished with a high likelihood that their future grading revenues decline significantly.

And if they were in cahoots, this ship is going to sink even quicker.


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I think you’ll find that CLCT options have bid/ask spreads wide enough to navigate a VLCC through and, even with those spreads, the volumes available are really small.

[Johnny630]

Most investors will avoid like the plague because they as a whole, I know I do despise uncertainty…… Too many big-time people own big cards in their holders PSA will be fine…… Short term glitch yes correct Correction in the market? I can see that big time…… Best time to buy is when the prices tank…… Verify first then trust… Until court in plastic holders pay me a quarterly dividend I will avoid

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser (how could we not be, with all the threads on Blowout). First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by (us being caught with) the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this (since we have or will be contacted by law enforcement). Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement (who contacted us and made indicated it would be in our best interest to cooporate) to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we (were caught and) are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can (as far as we HAVE to) to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process (because heck, the wheels of justice grind slowly) but we are working through this as quickly as we can (because heck, the wheels of justice grind slowly) at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities (re all previous comments). Finally, in response to these recent findings (and knowing a full investigation is coming and for damage control as best we can at this point), we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards (though we may decide to continue selling cards submitted by others, including those we might not be able to "prove" were submitted by someone else on Moser's behalf).

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred (that we find ourselves in) and will work to regain your trust (gullibility).

Is my parsing of the statement (in bold) about right?

[Frank A]

Nice try, but how many people have been screwed buying this crap. This will now have a hard impact on the hobby. You turned into a greedy pig and I hope you go to lockup for it. Your a disgrace.

[jason.1969]

For the non-lawyers here is the statement translated from legalese.

"Nobody will work harder than me to find the killer." -- O.J. Simpson

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[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

Springer voice: "And the lie detector determined.... that was a lie."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Springer voice: "And the lie detector determined.... that was a lie."

It's incredible. Every single thing he says is untrue, it seems. Again, it takes the diligence of collectors to call him out.

[swarmee]

The one true statement he made was that we will hold him responsible.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

The one true statement he made was that we will hold him responsible.

It's uncanny, in the very statement where he supposedly is trying to come clean about Moser, by disowning him, he misrepresents that he is no longer selling his cards, when he was trying to. You can't make this up.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's uncanny, in the very statement where he supposedly is trying to come clean about Moser, by disowning him, he misrepresents that he is no longer selling his cards, when he was trying to. You can't make this up.

I reiterate:



Yes, I have a new favorite GIF and yes I am ten years old...WTF do you expect, I play with baseball cards.

[edjs]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

You say this often. How many times does a person say they need to regain my trust? This is the way a junkie talks, because they are sick.

[Rhotchkiss]

This a crying shame. I don’t think there can be more than a handful of these out there, and now there is evidence that one of these beauties has been tainted. While no alteration is acceptable, some cards should be untouchable (pun intended)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Now working to regain your trust.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

This a crying shame. I don’t think there can be more than a handful of these out there, and now there is evidence that one of these beauties has been tainted. While no alteration is acceptable, some cards should be untouchable (pun intended)

These people don't give a damn, Ryan, as long as they make a dollar.

[jason.1969]

Glad mine came back from grading before the scandal hit. Note also the even rarer F*ckface variation!

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[JeremyW]

And the ever-elusive PSA 11. Sell now!

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Glad mine came back from grading before the scandal hit. Note also the even rarer F*ckface variation!

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That Moser fellow looks a lot like my neighbor. I always had my suspicions about him, and looking now at his shrubs, those suspicions have been confirmed.

Brian

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

That Moser fellow looks a lot like my neighbor. I always had my suspicions about him, and looking now at his shrubs, those suspicions have been confirmed.

Brian

Brian,

Is it also a very scarce BLANK back version?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Brian,

Is it also a very scarce BLANK back version?

oh, there's a back my handsome friend! Don't worry about that

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

That Moser fellow looks a lot like my neighbor. I always had my suspicions about him, and looking now at his shrubs, those suspicions have been confirmed.

Brian

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Brian,

Is it also a very scarce BLANK back version?

I'm not sure, because I cannot see into my neighbor's back yard. My guess, however, is that the shrubbery back there is also expertly trimmed.

Brian

[Peter_Spaeth]

Another Look N See with 45 45 centering
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2545

[Republicaninmass]

The freaking thing was a PSA 9 HE SOLD less than 7 months earlier if I'm reading correctly. Now try to tell me he didnt know it was the same card. Wow

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[MULLINS5]

The Musial is worthy of it's own thread

[swarmee]

I bumped the old one.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I bumped the old one.

Wonder who will bump the PSA forum one, lol.

[swarmee]

Well, they bumped the 15-year old Moser thread on the Set Registry board and it's still there, but that board gets no traffic.

And PSA knows that deleting the old threads would be a negative in the case of a real investigation. I can see them locking them, but not deleting them. I'm sure someone has already screen-captured or archived them.

In fact, maybe the owner will. He just posted on the Blowout board that he is aware and returning the card.