T206 questions Fred Clarke....

[vthobby]

Just curious of thoughts of what is going on with this card at the top? Clearly trimmed but the Red looks broken up like it was a factory color anomaly and not sure what that red strip on the right that looks like its on top of the card?

On the back to the left of the word "of" there also appears to be a stamp of some sort?

Any thoughts would be appreciated! Just bored at midnight in good 'ole Vermont!

Fred-Clarke-(Portrait.jpg

Fred-Clarke-(Portrait (1).jpg

Fred-Clarke-(Portrait.jpeg

Fred-Clarke-(Portrait (1).jpeg

[Bill77]

The red strip is part of the top of the card. The damage at the top is most likely a product of the bad trim job and the card running into the black gasket over the years since it was graded.

[FrankWakefield]

I suggest it was a bad CUTTING job 110 years ago, and not a modern TRIM job.

I accidently angered an old collector about 15 years ago, when I had bought a few dozen T206s from him, and the Tinker portrait had a top reminiscent to that. I told him I thought it overpriced, because it was trimmed at the top, and he got a bit fired up about that. I think that Clarke card came out of a cigarette pack like that, ages ago.

I think the card left the printer's like that.

[nineunder71]

Mike,
Here are some thoughts for you.

I agree with Bill that the card appears trimmed. Two reasons. First, the card clearly does not measure vertically, it is way short as it has a very small bottom border as well. Second, factory cuts will always be straight and opposing borders will always be parallel. A card can be Diamond cut, but still both will be true.

Without a better scan, I cannot be certain, but the top border does not look to be a straight cut to me, nor does it look parallel to the bottom border.

Now, technically, Frank could still be right. However, being that the card contains a not straight cut, the only way it was released from the factory in this condition is if it were a hand-cut “scrap” or printer’s scrap, otherwise the previous two rules would have to apply, and they don’t. And it would not have come in a cigarette pack

As far as the white at the top, interesting, as is the faded back stamp or possible WST from another set, or post-factory WST. The white is not just missing paper? Isn’t that a chunk of red still attached upper right?

Anyway, neat inquiry and a cooler card than first appears either way.

Good Luck!

Colton

[nineunder71]

I find the back most interesting

Isn’t there something else above the M in Piedmont? Could it be part of the transfer below?

Any chance you have a better scan of the back?

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by nineunder71

I find the back most interesting

Isn’t there something else above the M in Piedmont? Could it be part of the transfer below?

Any chance you have a better scan of the back?

Thanks for all the responses. Here is a closer pic of that area you requested. It might just be the glare from the holder? Not sure. The card is being mailed to me so I do not have it in hand yet, thanks!

Fred-Clarke-(Portrait.jpeg

[drcy]

I think it's from the cutting. That piece on edge looks like a piece from the top that got stuck.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nineunder71

Mike,
Here are some thoughts for you.

I agree with Bill that the card appears trimmed. Two reasons. First, the card clearly does not measure vertically, it is way short as it has a very small bottom border as well. Second, factory cuts will always be straight and opposing borders will always be parallel. A card can be Diamond cut, but still both will be true.

Without a better scan, I cannot be certain, but the top border does not look to be a straight cut to me, nor does it look parallel to the bottom border.

Now, technically, Frank could still be right. However, being that the card contains a not straight cut, the only way it was released from the factory in this condition is if it were a hand-cut “scrap” or printer’s scrap, otherwise the previous two rules would have to apply, and they don’t.

As far as the white at the top, interesting, as is the faded back stamp or possible WST from another set, or post-factory WST. The white is not just missing paper? Isn’t that a chunk of red still attached upper right?

Anyway, neat inquiry and a cooler card than first appears either way.

Good Luck!

Colton

While the factory cuts generally are straight and parallel, and the cards are usually around the "right" size, that's not always the case.

A few different things can cause curved cuts or odd cuts.
This one has a parallel but not straight cut probably caused by a piece of debris between the stack of sheets and the cutting surface. (where the blade came down there would be a sacrificial strip that beck then would have been wood. And as it wore pieces coming out wouldn't have been unusual.


I'm not sure if I have one, but T206 and caramel cards with non- parallel edges are out there.
I even have a T51 with a bit of extra paper projecting from one side - likely because of a chipped blade on the cutter.

What's a better indicator of a factory cut than any other is the edge quality where the start of the cut (nearly always on the front, so nearly always that I don't recall seeing any cut back to front.) is indented slightly and there's a corresponding ridge on the back. Having checked most of mine, I was very surprised to find that back ridge to be still present even on very worn cards.

I do think the top of this one is trimmed though. To my thinking the cut id just too sloppy. to be anything else.

[nineunder71]

Steve,
Okay, guess I should never say never (or always)

But, in my opinion you are referring to a printing anomaly. Yes, if a chipped blade on the cutter is present, then an anomaly could occur. But this is only an anomaly, OR something that was not intended.

I’m not referring to the multitude of anomalies present in the T206 world, instead I’m trying to educate the OP and others whom may not understand the differences between a scrap and a trimmed card.

Without your Myers card in hand, I’m not sure my opinion of it. However, I can positively say this: Card trimmers are only making that cut to try and make the card’s appearance BETTER, and hence hopefully increase its potential sales value? With this said, I would lean toward your Myer’s card Not being trimmed.

And I’m not talking about a little kid cutting the borders off a card in the 1920s, I’m referring to professional fraudsters from the 70s to present.

Anyway, the rules I layed out in my previous post will serve the masses well in determining trimmed vs. scrap.

As we’ve learned, anyone can knit pick any comment on here, take them for what you want.

See the attached Gray card. Here is another crazy cut example. The top edge and both sides sure look factory cut to me (sorry about the poor scan) However, that bottom border is not only over-sized, but slanted as hell! Haha. Yes, anomalies do occur