HOF Results

[paul]

What does everyone think of the Hall of Fame results -- Bud Fowler, Buck O'Neil, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, and Tony Oliva? Looks like I'll be paying big bucks (sorry for the pun) for an O'Neil card. I have a team issue picture of him with the Cubs from the 1960s, but I think I still want to have a card of him from Cuba.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by paul

What does everyone think of the Hall of Fame results -- Bud Fowler, Buck O'Neil, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, and Tony Oliva? Looks like I'll be paying big bucks (sorry for the pun) for an O'Neil card. I have a team issue picture of him with the Cubs from the 1960s, but I think I still want to have a card of him from Cuba.

All worthy additions in my opinion. Or certainly more worthy than some of the other people the veterans committee elected in years past. We've been past the point of a "small hall" for a while now.

O'Neil and Minoso should have been elected some time ago. O'Neil was instrumental to getting the Negro Leagues recognized, I wish he would've been granted admission in his lifetime, the same goes for Minnie.

[mrreality68]

All worthy candidates and glad they all got in.

Just many more deserving from the Negro League to get in. But with these committees not regrouping for a while the wait goes on for others

[Scocs]

Does anyone know if players who were not inducted from these older baseball committees today are still eligible in 2032 or are they now off the ballots?

[bnorth]

This "card" was given out(SGA) when Tony got into the Twins HOF many many years ago. I got him to sign it a few years ago. Tony was very surprised to see the card and asked how I got it. When I told him I was there he got a huge smile and was a very nice gentleman.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This "card" was given out(SGA) when Tony got into the Twins HOF many many years ago. I got him to sign it a few years ago. Tony was very surprised to see the card and asked how I got it. When I told him I was there he got a huge smile and was a very nice gentleman.

Very nice

Great display

[Hankphenom]

So very happy for Buck, a truly wonderful man. Wish he was around to enjoy it.

[BobC]

Great group!

Surprised the Golden Era Committee got so many players in though. Anyone thinking the people on that voting committee may have gotten together to ensure they got several deserving candidates in finally?

[JollyElm]

As a Mets' fan son of Brooklyn Dodger diehard parents, this really warms my heart. Their love for Gil Hodges knew no bounds, and baseball card collecting has always been a bridge between (usually) fathers and sons, so I love it!!!!!

[campyfan39]

Mostly happy for Gil. Looooong overdue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Was Kaat any better than Tommy John? I don't object to him but at the same time am surprised, I thought Minoso for sure, maybe Hodges, outside shot Oliva.

[G1911]

The Golden Era is not bad. Minoso is, I think, long overdue and a clear hall of famer. Kaat, Oliva and Hodges are not bad choices, not great ones. They can reasonably be hall of famers without lowering the standard, and could reasonably not make it. The kind of guys this vote, after missing admittance for like 50 years, is made for. I'd probably pick Boyer over Kaat, but none of these are a bad choice. No Harold Baines garbage, no Lee Smith, no Jack Morris type pick. All reasonable.

However, it looks like collusion. 11/16 ballots were exactly the same, with a choice among 10 players who are all in the same 'close but not quite' boat (except, I think, Minoso who is extremely deserving). Really looks like there was some vote trading or something to align everything so we have several players elected.


The Pre-War ballot, frankly, I think has much to do with narratives. It's purpose was obviously to elect Negro Leaguers, with the recent declaration that they are all major leagues. This isn't a problem necessarily, most of the best players from that time period not in are from the Negro Leagues. But O'Neil and Fowler? O'Neil is getting in for being a great interview subject, I like him and his stories like everyone else but I don't think that's an appropriate reason. Character by itself is not enough. Fowler, I don't claim to be an expert on, but he's seems chosen as a first-of-something, not a great. They had better choices on this ballot to honor black players from this period, like Donaldson.

If I'm reading it right, Bill Dahlen got 0 votes though. Reynolds and O'Doul, the other traditional major league options, both did get multiple votes. Each of whom is obviously inferior as a player, and Reynolds even being there is downright ridiculous (25 WAR, less than 200 wins, why not Lopat if you want a good-for-awhile Yankee from the 50's?). O'Doul has claims to significance in Japan, which does not seem relevant to an American Hall of Fame that does not and never has honored success in Japan. I know he has fans here, but 3,600 at bats for a player elected for his batting is a little absurd. Dahlen was close to getting in in a previous vote. He got completely screwed if the results I have are correct.

[mainemule]

Wow, I am shocked 6 were elected. It seems John Donaldon and Dick Allen were the 2 that pundits were high on who were not elected. Donaldson's numbers are certainly hard to fully grasp since they include so many semi-pro games. Allen was one, one!! vote short. Crazy......

[rhettyeakley]

Happy for those that got in. Most are well deserving.

Some real head scratchers for me to be honest. Not sure how Jim Kaat gets in but Tommy John doesn’t get considered. I’ll never understand the lack of respect given to Lefty O’Doul and his impact on baseball in the west & Japan. Also, how does Oliva get in but not Allen? I like Oliva a lot but always felt his chances were lower than Dick Allen.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

As a Mets' fan son of Brooklyn Dodger diehard parents, this really warms my heart. Their love for Gil Hodges knew no bounds, and baseball card collecting has always been a bridge between (usually) fathers and sons, so I love it!!!!!

Like you, my father was a big Brooklyn Dodgers fan. He grew up in Brooklyn. I remember him talking about Gil Hodges. I have recollections that Gil lived in the neighbourhood.

Between his playing days and managing the Miracle Mets, his membership was long overdue. I'm glad he's been recognised by the Committee.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Like you, my father was a big Brooklyn Dodgers fan. He grew up in Brooklyn. I remember him talking about Gil Hodges. I have recollections that Gil lived in the neighbourhood.

Between his playing days and managing the Miracle Mets, his membership was long overdue. I'm glad he's been recognised by the Committee.

Way overdue on Hodges - Over the years - I can remember having conversations many times as to why he hadn't been inducted a long time ago.

Being originally from KC - Buck has had a tremendous career and vary large fan base for a long time.

BTW - If you ever get a chance - The Negro League Baseball Hall of Fame at 18th and Vine is an incredible way to spend a day.

[Natswin2019]

Originally Posted by paul

What does everyone think of the Hall of Fame results -- Bud Fowler, Buck O'Neil, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, and Tony Oliva? Looks like I'll be paying big bucks (sorry for the pun) for an O'Neil card. I have a team issue picture of him with the Cubs from the 1960s, but I think I still want to have a card of him from Cuba.

All of them are deserving and long overdue. Especially for Buck and Hodges.

[egri]

I'm surprised by how many were inducted; I had been expecting one or two. No complaints about who got in, I would've liked to see Billy Pierce get in as well though.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by egri

I'm surprised by how many were inducted; I had been expecting one or two. No complaints about who got in, I would've liked to see Billy Pierce get in as well though.

Was surprised also. With 16 voters with 4 votes each, and needing 12 votes for election, that means at most the Golden Era Committee could end up electing 5 people. That they got 4 in makes me wonder if they didn't work together to get in as many past due, deserving candidates as possible.

[5-Tool Player]

Originally Posted by Natswin2019

All of them are deserving and long overdue. Especially for Buck and Hodges.

P+1

[the 'stache]

I don’t believe Jim Kaat was deserving in the slightest. I have nothing against the guy, but I Cooperstown exists to pay tribute to the best players in the game’s history. That’s not Jim Kaat. He’s the living embodiment of the phrase “Hall of Very Good”.

I get that he won almost 300 games (283). But he pitched in 25 different seasons to get that many wins, and honestly, win total, and win-loss record, are terrible methods for evaluating a player’s performance because so many things beyond a pitcher’s control influences a decision (run support, defensive performance, bullpen strength, etc).

ERA+ is a standardized metric that shows how much better or worse a pitcher performed than league average (average being 100). Kaat’s 108 ERA+ was, for his career, only 8% better than league average. And his best individual was only a 131 ERA+.

The man earned Cy Young votes-any votes, at all, in exactly one season, and the award began getting handed out in both leagues in 1967, Kaat’s age 28 season. From the beginning of that 1967 season, Kaat pitched 3,015 more innings, winning 185 more games. He started 406 games, and appeared in 654 in total. And yet the men that covered the game every day, who saw him pitch up close, thought he was worthy of receiving a Cy Young vote exactly one time. That’s not a ringing endorsement, and it’s certainly not indicative of greatness.

Typically, great players will create value at a rate greater than the amount of time they played. What I mean by that is, if you look at a player’s WAR ranking (either among position players or pitchers), and compared that ranking to where they appear on the all time innings pitched, or plate appearances list, the good ones will rank higher in WAR than those other two metrics; at worst, they will be about the same, or very slightly below.

In the 146 year history of Major League Baseball, 24 men have thrown more than Jim Kaat’s 4,530 innings pitched. And yet his 45.2 WAR from pitching ranks only 126th, all-time. For the amount of time he spent on the field, he didn’t generate anywhere near the amount of value for his team that he should have.

By JAWS, which averages career WAR and WAR7 (7 peak seasons), Jim Kaat, again, 25th all-time in innings pitched, ranks 109th in JAWS. He’s the 109th best pitcher in Major League Baseball history. There are now 65 pitchers in Cooperstown, meaning that there are 43 pitchers with a more compelling resume than Jim Kaat, not in the Hall of Fame.

And the whole “he won 16 Gold Gloves” narrative is not as impactful as many would have us believe. Yes, he was a good fielder. But fielding is such a small part of a pitcher’s responsibilities. Kaat threw 4,530 and 1/3 innings in 25 seasons. He handled 1,062 chances in his career. He made 262 putouts, and had 744 assists. He made a putout once every 17.3 innings pitched, and an assist every 6.1 innings. Again, not really statistically significant.


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[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

And the whole “he won 16 Gold Gloves” narrative is not as impactful as many would have us believe. Yes, he was a good fielder.

He wasn't even that good of a fielder. Career .947 fielding percentage. I randomly looked at Greg Maddux, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, and Robin Roberts - literally just four guys who pitched a long time - and all of them had a higher fielding % than Kaat. Yeah, fielding % is not a great indicator for defensive prowess but it's better than nothing.

[the 'stache]

I think Tony Oliva was a much more deserving player than Kaat. He didn’t have the counting numbers a lot of voters look for, as injuries derailed his career, but Oliva, unlike Kaat, was an elite player. Tony Oliva was MVP runner up twice, finished 4th another time, 6th yet another, and had a 10th place finish. He had three other top 20 finishes. Oliva win three batting titles, led his league in runs once, in hits five times, doubles four times, SLG, total bases, sac flies and intentional base on balls once each.

And he wax a strong defensive outfielder, with +56 Rtot in his career, and an average of +6 per 1,200 defensive innings. He won only one Gold Glove, but I think that’s more the product of his playing right field in the American League at the same time Al Kaline did. There were only three Gold Gloves handed out in each league for the outfield, and Oliva was up against Kaline, Carl Yastrzemski and Paul Blair. Those guys were going to be awfully tough to beat out.

As a rule of thumb, I’d much rather honor great players who had shorter careers than those who played for a really long time, but never really achieving greatness.


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