T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *




. .

Connie Mack recruited most of his ballplayers from College. He felt they had better training and they could think better than players from the farm system.
Jack Coombs is a perfect example of Connie's recruiting style. Jack was a 4 sport (baseball, basketball, football and track) athlete at Colby College (Maine).
Tom Mack (Connie's brother) scouted Jack during his College days. In his senior year (1905), Jack signed with the A's. His first 4 years, Jack's pitching record
was unimpressive. Then in 1910, Jack's W-L record was an amazing 31-9 with 1.30 ERA. Furthermore, he won 3 games in the World Series defeating the Cubs.

In the Fall of 1910, American Lithographic was designing their 460-only series cards; therefore, why didn't they include Jack Coombs in this series ? Given, the
tremendous year he had. I do not really understand why he is missing in the T206 set.

Incidentally, Coombs won 28 games in 1911, and 21 games in 1912. WOW !....80 games won in 3 consecutive years. **

Is that a record, or what ?


Incidentally, for whatever reason, Jack Coombs is not featured in the E104-1 set, nor the 1910 Cullivan's Fireside (T208) set, both of which feature the 1910
World Champions A's. The same printing firm produced both of these sets.


** ....Connie Mack (and the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *


Shoeless Joe Jackson

.




Connie Mack recruited Joe Jackson in 1908, and Joe started with the Philadelphia A's in Sept 1908. Joe's style just did not fit in with the "College Boys" on the A's.
Part of the problem (believe it, or not) was that some Americans were still "fighting" the Civil War. Check-out the players in your T206 set and you'll discover that
very few of them were from the "deep South". Of course Cobb is one of these few Southerners. But, Cobb was sort of a unique dude. **

Joe played in only 10 games for the A's (1908 & 1909). Connie Mack traded Joe to Cleveland in July 1910. 1911 was Joe's 1st full Major Lge. season (147 games).
Joe was amazing....233 Hits for a .403 BA. So, the real question to any one on this forum is....why wasn't Joe in subsequent T-card sets ? We know that American
Lithographic (ALC) was introducing T205 cards as late as the Fall/Winter of 1911. But, where was Shoeless Joe ? ?

Then in 1912, I would think ALC would have included Joe in their T202 set. But hold it for a moment....is this Joe in this T202 centerfold sliding into 3rd base ?



** ....Connie Mack (and the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht


Smoky Joe Wood

Info forthcoming....stay tuned.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * *


Smoky Joe Wood

From 1908 - 1910, Smoky Joe's performance pitching for Boston (AL) was less than impressive. Nevertheless, during this timeframe American Lithographic
was planning, designing, and printing the 388 different subjects for the T206 set. They included Smoky Joe's battery mates (Bill Carrigan & Tubby Spencer)
in the T206 set....but no Joe.
Interestingly, Smoky Joe is even featured in the 1909 American Caramel (E91-C) set. So, I really don't understand why he was not included in the T206 set.
Anyone on this forum have any thoughts regarding this omission ?

Wood won 23 games in 1911. Then followed it up with a 34-5 W-L record with a 1.91 ERA in that "magical" year of 1912. Furthermore, Joe single-handedly
beat the NY Giants in the World Series, winning 3 games (the final game in relief).

I traded my T207 Joe Wood card quite a few years ago (my regret)....so I don't have a card of him to display. I'd appreciate if some one here would post a
Joe Wood card.


TED Z
.

[frohme]

Per your request, Ted.

[tedzan]

Hi Mike

Your T207 Joe Wood is a beauty.

Thanks very much for posting it.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


The POLAR BEAR tobacco brand was produced in Middletown, Ohio. See Factory #6 in post #5, courtesy of Craig Wright.... POLAR BEAR factory..Middletown, Ohio
The POLAR BEAR cards were printed at American Litho in NYC, and shipped to the Middletown plant to be inserted in POLAR BEAR tobacco packs.

The cards of Demmitt and O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara are 350-only series subjects, which were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and O'Hara were traded during the off-season. Both started
the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

The St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara are printed ONLY with the POLAR BEAR back. Therefore, it's fair to conclude that the 1st press runs of PB cards occurred
during the Summer of 1910.





Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards



There has been some debate as to which series these St Louis variations were printed in ? One school of thought says the Demmitt and O'Hara were included in the 1st
press runs when the 350-only series cards were printed. Another school of thought says that they were printed along during the 2nd press runs with the 350/460 cards.

Apparently, American Litho started their 1st press run of the PB cards circa Summer of 1910. ALC printed the PB backs on 138 subjects of the 350-only series.

The 2nd press run (circa Summer/Fall of 1910) was a major one. ALC printed PB backs on the 60 subjects from the 350/460 Series. It's my contention, that ALC printed
the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations in this PB press run.

Furthermore, these PB press runs of 60 subjects (or 66 subjects, if we include the 6 super-prints) were printed in greater quantities than the 350-only series printing of
PB cards. Proof of this theory is evident in T206 surveys, POP report data, and everyday Ebay listings of PB cards.

Finally, I would estimate that there are at approx. 300 cards each of the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations currently in circulation. What is your guesstimate ?

OK, having said all this, I'm open to hearing your ideas on this subject ?


To date, my checklist indicates 250 subjects have been confirmed with the POLAR BEAR backs.
The following lists these cards according to their respective T206 series.

350-only Series..................138 subjects

Abbott
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Beckley
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell

Burke
Bush
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Chappelle
Clancy
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Milwaukee)
Congalton
Cravath
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dygert
Easterly

Egan
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hallman
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)

Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Kruger
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox

Maloney
Mattern
McGann
McGinnity
McGlynn
McLean
Merritt
Milan
Milligan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moriarty
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Nattress
Oakes
O'Brien
O'Neill
Perring

Pfeister (seated)
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe

Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Strang
Jessie Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielman
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wright
Irv Young


350/460 series...................58 subjects [plus Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations]

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Demmitt (St Louis American)..........included in this print run
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)

Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Hara (St Louis Nat'l)....................included in this print run
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series..................46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted, I disagree with classifying Demmitt and O'Hara as 350/460 series
they're 350 only subjects.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The cards of Demmitt and O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara are 350-only series subjects, which were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and O'Hara were traded in the off-season. Both started
the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

TED Z

Pat

I have very clearly stated that the Demmitt and O'Hara (New York variations) are 350-only subjects. And, I'm NOT "classifying" the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations
as "350/460 series subjects". I am simply proposing that (with respect to the POLAR BEAR runs) they were printed on the same sheet as the 350/460 series subjects.


My research indicates that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations could NOT have been printed in the 1st press run of the POLAR BEAR cards with the 350-only subjects.
Several surveys have confirmed this fact, because the quantities of POLAR BEAR cards in this press run are relatively low. Whereas, the subsequent press runs of 350/460 sub-
jects were printed with much greater quantities of POLAR BEAR backs. Quantities which are consistent with the numbers of known Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) cards.
Therefore, with respect to the POLAR BEAR population, the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations timeline is very likely circa..Summer/Fall 1910.

I have qualified my 350/460 series Checklist, which I've included the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations, to note that these 2 subjects were also printed with this group.


TED Z
.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *

Connie Mack was a staunch anti-tobacco guy, who did not want his image portrayed on tobacco cards. **
Of course he can be found on various E-type cards.
. .

Connie Mack recruited most of his ballplayers at from College. He felt they had better training and they could think better than players from the farm system.
Jack Coombs is a perfect example of Connie's recruiting style. Jack was a 4 sport (baseball, basketball, football and track) athlete at Colby College in Maine.
Tom Mack (Connie's brother) scouted Jack during his College days. In his senior year (1905), Jack signed with the A's. His first 4 years, Jack's pitching record
was unimpressive. Then in 1910, Jack's W-L record was an amazing 31-9 with 1.30 ERA. Furthermore, he won 3 games in the World Series defeating the Cubs.

In the Fall of 1910, American Lithographic was designing their 460-only series cards; therefore, why didn't they include Jack Coombs in this series ? Given, the
tremendous year he had. I do not really understand why he is missing in the T206 set.

Incidentally, Coombs won 28 games in 1911, and 21 games in 1912. WOW !....80 games won in 3 consecutive years. **

Is that a record, what ?

TED Z
.

Hey there Ted!,

No Doubt Mr. Coombs had an impressive 3 Year Run!
80 Wins in Just 3 Years Will Nevar Happen AgaiN....

Being a "BiG" Ed Walsh Rooter, I Do Know THaT
Mr. Walsh Had His Own Nice Run of 81 Wins From 1906-08(17,24 & 40)
I'm Not Sure if it's the Record?, Mr. Walsh Certainly Holds Many!

Howevar, As You Know "BiG" Ed Holds the All Time Record fir ERA(1.82),
And Mr. Coombs Bested the Spitballer by 1.32 to 1.59 during their 3 Year Runs.
So, my Hats Off to Mr. Coombs!
~ Very Impressive during his time ~

*And I Just Moved Mr. Coombs to the "Head of the Pack"
Of my "Who Should of Bin Included inta the T206 Set"!!!

As Always Sir... Dankz fir the Education, "TRuLy!"

[tedzan]

Hi Denny

Thanks for the information on "Big Ed". Walsh (as you well know) was amazing from 1907 - 1912.....168 Wins. That's an average of 24 Wins per season !

Hey guy, we here in Pennsylvania have produced a lot of great ballplayers throughout the years. Dare I say the T206 set consists of more Pennsylvanians
than from any other state in the country back then.

Yes, for 3 consecutive seasons Jack Coombs was a tremendous pitcher. But your guy was tremendous for 7 consecutive years.


Thanks again for the memories,

TED Z
.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Hey there Ted!,

No Doubt Mr. Coombs had an impressive 3 Year Run!
80 Wins in Just 3 Years Will Nevar Happen AgaiN....

Being a "BiG" Ed Walsh Rooter, I Do Know THaT
Mr. Walsh Had His Own Nice Run of 81 Wins From 1906-08(17,24 & 40)
I'm Not Sure if it's the Record?, Mr. Walsh Certainly Holds Many!

Howevar, As You Know "BiG" Ed Holds the All Time Record fir ERA(1.82),
And Mr. Coombs Bested the Spitballer by 1.32 to 1.59 during their 3 Year Runs.
So, my Hats Off to Mr. Coombs!
~ Very Impressive during his time ~

*And I Just Moved Mr. Coombs to the "Head of the Pack"
Of my "Who Should of Bin Included inta the T206 Set"!!!

As Always Sir... Dankz fir the Education, "TRuLy!"

Cy Young won 97 games from 1891-93. Walter Johnson matched that from 1912-14.

[Sean]

And Grover Cleveland Alexander came close with 94 from 1915-1917.

[Ronnie73]

While playing around with spreadsheet checklists for Polar Bears and Sovereigns, I came across something interesting that may or may not have been brought up in the past. The first part I'm sure everyone is aware of is that all Sovereign 150/350 cards do not exist with Polar Bear backs. The second part which I normally wouldn't think much into it but a magic number 55 comes into play. I combined the Sovereign and Polar Bear lists together. I then removed the Sovereign 150/350 cards. Then I removed the cards that shared Polar Bear and Sovereign backs. What I was left with was a list of Polar Bears that don't have Sovereign 350 & 460 counterparts, and a list of Sovereign 350's that don't have Polar Bear counterparts. Odd thing is that each list has 55 unique cards and the Sovereign's are all the Forest Green Backs. So, am I putting too much thought into this? What's everyone's thoughts that each list has 55 cards? All cards are from the Print Group 2 class except where noted.

Sovereign 350 Forest Green Backs that don't have Polar Bear counterparts.
Arndt, Harry
Bender, Chief (With Trees)
Brown, George (Washington) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Burns, Bill
Butler, John
Byrne, Bobby
Campbell, Billy
Cassidy, Peter
Collins, Eddie
Crawford, Sam (Throwing) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Cree, Birdie
Dahlen, Bill (Brooklyn) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Dineen, Bill
Donovan, Wild Bill (Throwing)
Doolan, Mickey (Fielding)
Downs, Jerry
Dubuc, Jean
Dunn, Jack
Dunn, Joe
Fiene, Lou (Throwing)
Hall, Bob
Hannifan, Jack
Hartsel, Topsy
Howell, Harry (Portrait)
Huggins, Miller (Hands At Mouth)
Huggins, Miller (Portrait)
Jennings, Hughie (Portrait) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Killian, Ed (Portrait)
Knabe, Otto
Lennox, Ed
Malarkey, Bill
Marquard, Rube (Portrait)
McCormick, Moose
McGinley, Jim
McIntyre, Matty
Mitchell, Fred
Mitchell, Mike
Moran, Herbie
Mowrey, Mike
Myers, Chief (Fielding)
Oberlin, Frank
O'Hara, Bill (New York)
Paskert, Dode
Phelan, Jimmy
Poland, Phil
Rhoades, Bob (Hands At Chest)
Rossman, Claude
Schmidt, Boss (Portrait)
Stephens, Jim
Street, Gabby (Portrait)
Summers, Ed
Sweeney, Bill
Thomas, Ira
Wilson, Owen
Zimmerman, Heinie

Polar Bear Backs that don't have Sovereign 350 or 460 counterparts.
Adkins, Doc
Arellanes, Frank
Barbeau, Jap
Barger, Cy
Bliss, Jack
Brashear, Roy
Bresnahan, Roger (Batting)
Burchell, Fred
Clark, Josh
Clymer, Bill
Collins, Jimmy
Davidson, Paul
Delehanty, Frank
Demmitt, Ray (St. Louis Amer.)
Dessau, Rube
Dorner, Gus
Downey, Tom (Fielding)
Engle, Clyde
Evans, Steve
Freeman, Jerry
Ganzel, John
Graham, Bill
Gray, Dolly
Groom, Bob
Hayden, Jack
Jones, Davy
Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching) (PRINT GROUP 3)
LaPorte, Frank
Lattimore, Bill
Lavender, Jimmy (It was pointed out that this card doesn't belong on the list. So this list only has 54 cards.)
Lord, Harry
Maddox, Nick
Maloney, Billy
Mattern, Al
McLean, Larry
Milan, Clyde
Miller, Dots
Mullen, George
Murray, Red (Batting)
Nattress, Billy
O'Hara, Bill (St. Louis)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical) (PRINT GROUP 3)
Phillippe, Deacon
Puttman, Ambrose
Rhodes, Charlie
Ritter, Lou
Rudolph, Dick
Schirm, George
Schlafly, Larry
Schreck, Ossee
Shannon, Spike
Sharpe, Bud
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston) (PRINT GROUP 3)
Snodgrass, Fred (Batting)
Willett, Ed

[Rich Falvo]

Ron...one change for you - Lavender has both Polar Bear and Sovereign 350.

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

Interesting stuff.

I did a similar analysis with POLAR BEAR vs 1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects in 2008.
Refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...1654&highlight

Shown here are the 48- Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. The 1910 COUPON cards were issued circa..Spring/Summer 1910.
My theory.....is this group of 48 subjects were printed from an early 350-only sheet of T206 cards. From this group, 39 subjects are POLAR
BEAR No-Prints.
The nine printed POLAR BEAR cards from this group are listed below.


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects





Confirmed POLAR BEAR Subjects from this COUPON group

Engle
LaPorte
Willett

and the Six Super-Prints....which of course went on to be 350/460 series subjects and have PB backs

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Rich Falvo

Ron...one change for you - Lavender has both Polar Bear and Sovereign 350.

Hey Rich, your right. So much for my 55/55 list. I guess that's what happens when I try to do T206 research 2:30 in the morning.