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#1
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
What is this used for exactly. And how do you go about doing it. |
#2
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
I would not advise soaking a $4000 and trying to remove a crease. |
#3
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
But for what reason. Will it not grade? What if I just put one drop of distiled water on the 2 creases and then put it in a case. The ard is 100 years old. |
#4
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: will
Sure, why not. |
#5
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: davidcycleback
For a heavy crease or wrinkle, I'm not certain your process would entirely remove it. I'm not an expert in conserving baseball cards, but if card is 90 years old, it's bone dry and I'm not sure that messing around with the surface texture is a great idea. I suspect that pressing a 90 year old wrinkle may simply produce a flat wrinkle, and may make it look worse. |
#6
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Why are you asking whether it is wrong? Some people are going to say it is and some are probably going to say it isn't. Your real concern is whether the graders can detect it, I presume. Suppose the consensus was that they couldn't but that it was still "wrong"? What then? |
#7
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
For what reason? |
#8
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
its a 3500 card in the shape its in. But I hear about people removing glue all the time. i have so many t cards still with glue on them and they all grade. and during the process Ive heard of creases coming out. Ive read sevearl post about people on here doing this. What makes it so wrong if its part of the hobby. There is a post right now about removing paper. How many of the PSA 7-8s used to be glued to paper. its only 2 mm long. A simple screw down might press it out without even trying to. |
#9
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
It's deception, and I think you'd find you're hard-pressed to find a person here who admits to soaking a card to remove a crease and resell the card. Removing something like scrapbook paper and glue isn't frowned upon the way taking out creases and wrinkles is. |
#10
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: davidcycleback
I forgot to mention that adding a drop of water to a specific kind of card can visably alter the surface texture in the shape of the drop of water. I don't know what kind of card you have, so I don't know that it applies to you. |
#11
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
Ive never done it in my life. I just wanted to get yalls opinion on the subject. I thought this might not be that bad to do bc its only a 2 mm crease. And Ive heard about people doing it on here bf. Dont act like Im a criminal when I havent done anything wrong. I was asking what yall thought. |
#12
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Bob
Derek- I am with Al on this one. The card is too expensive to go screwing around with trying to remove a crease. I am assuming that you are like me and couldn't afford to have a card go from being worth $3500 with the crease, as you mentioned, to being an ungradeable, altered card with a value much, much less. Some of the guys here would probably think 4k is a drop in the bucket, but I am guessing not you and not me either...Leave it be. |
#13
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
Yeah, Its a gourgeous and extreamly rare card. Ill be happy with it in a 3. And it may grade a 4 sense the creases are so small. |
#14
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
But why do people buy cards that have been soaked and removed from an album. And why do they grade if they have been soaked? |
#15
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: davidcycleback
Derek, my guess is that if you've never done it before, you won't be able to remove the wrinkles so it appears they were never there. |
#16
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
Im not going to. But I was just asking about the subject how this is wrong. What if while you were soaking a card to remove from an album a crease then was taken out not on purpose. Then would it not be acceptable. |
#17
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: T206Collector
I often soak T206 cards to remove glue and paper from the reverse. As I have mentioned many times on this Board, one of my best examples -- Pfeister Throwing -- is now in an SGC 70 holder, even though it once had 3/4 of the back covered in paper: |
#18
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
Interesting read. Im not going to do it bc I dont even know how. I just wanted to hear yalls thoughts about this. Its to valueable to even try and I like it how it is. And the perpose was to keep for my own and not resell. I ve had the card for about 2 years now and I just wanted to know if I could take out the 2 creases without damaging the card. |
#19
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Bob
Derek- You mentioned that the card is 100 years old and I was wondering what kind of card it was. If it is a T206 we are probably talking about Magie, Demmitt or OHara, based on your price range. Those cards appear to suffer water "baths" much better than others for some reason. I have never heard of some of the other century old cards being soaked so perhaps that might be more dangerous. Although it might have occurred, for instance, I have never heard of an E card from that period being soaked to remove paper or to press out a crease, only some tobacco cards. |
#20
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Derek
Yes it is a t206, Ive heard of it done. I just dont want to lose the intregrity of my card. Its for myself. But I would just love to presnt it in a PSA 4 or 5. It may grade a 4 but I think it will stay at a 3 bc of the 2 tiny creases. Its such a nice card I dont think Id be willing to try. But they are just so damn small. |
#21
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: davidcycleback
Removing a 2mm wrinkle is not a crime against humanity or anything close. However, it is unethical for a seller to intentionally withold information about a card that he knows would lower the sales price. This is particularly true when the seller himself would pay less for a card with removed wrinkles. Telling a potential buyer that wrinkles were removed with distilled water and a spoon is okay, but I assume informing potential buyers is not the common intention for someone removing wrinkles. |
#22
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: T206Collector
"However, it is unethical for a seller to intentionally withold information about a card that he knows would lower the sales price." |
#23
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: JimCrandell
In response to your main question--"My main concern is if this (removing creases) is wrong". |
#24
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
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#25
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Peter, |
#26
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
I know a collector who bought scrapbooks in the early 60s, tore the pages apart, and pitched them in the bathtub to soak off E and T cards. |
#27
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Anonymous
I have never altered or restored a card, but I would have no problem purchasing a restored card as long as it is permenantly restored with no foreign materials added or original materials removed or altered from their original state. |
#28
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: davidcycleback
I owned a restored item. |
#29
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: T206Collector
When I said that "I have had the same ethical concerns that have been expressed here," I certainly did not mean to suggest that it was wrong for someone to soak a T206 and press out a crease, if that is possible. I was saying that I personally did not like the idea, but I am well aware that it goes on, is undetectable and that I probably have scores of T206 cards in my collection to which it has been done. I can still sleep well tonight. |
#30
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
As someone who doesn't need to consult a dictionary, I can tell you that fraud is the misrepresentation OR OMISSION of a material fact, with intent to induce reliance thereon, etc. I think what we disagree on, Paul, is whether pressing out a crease is material. And I don't think you can really define that by whether or not it is detectable or not, because that is a slippery slope, one can posit technology that could do things to cards that I believe you would consider unacceptable yet they might not be "detectable." Sort of like the crooks being ahead of the detectives. Interesting discussion though, especially when one attempts to draw the lines. |
#31
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
To further clarify, I think the problem I have with taking out a crease as opposed to scrapbook removal, leaving aside the question of whether it might come back, is that a crease is part of the natural wear a card has encountered during its use, so there seems something improper about deceptively undoing that wear. Whereas storing something in a scrapbook and then soaking it out doesn't involve removing wear that has naturally occurred to the card, just removing it from a storage medium and some extra material in the process. Maybe it's not a perfect distinction, but it's one that makes sense to me -- ESPECIALLY when I would guess a substantial amount of intentional crease removal is for the purpose of improving a card's condition in order to sell it for more money than it otherwise would sell for. To me, that is disclosable. |
#32
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Amen, Paul... |
#33
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Frank's post leads us back into the same confusion we got into last time this subject was discussed. I think we are conflating washing off extra material with crease removal, and I was at least trying to draw a distinction. This thread is about crease removal, read the first post from the guy asking was it wrong to remove a crease. Who here said anything about the sanctity of dryness or anything against soaking off extra material? Seems to me "you guys" are setting up a straw man. Frank, your views on taking out creases (yes, with water) would be interesting. |
#34
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: davidcycleback
The general concensus is that removing something that wasn't an original part of the card is okay: scrapbook paper, glue, etc. Altering the card itself is considered different: trimming, coloring, etc. |
#35
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Since you're interested... |
#36
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
"Soaking to remove a crease so you can get the card graded higher so it will sell better, that bothers me." |
#37
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Josh K.
"Soaking to remove a crease so the card presents better in your own collection, that is tollerable, at least to me." |
#38
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Peter, |
#39
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: T206Collector
"In my opinion, not only is taking a crease out of a card wrong under any circumstances, it should be something that any vintage collector does not tolerate." |
#40
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Jim, I thought I was clear that I was distinguishing between taking out creases, which I think is definitely wrong because it is removing wear that occurred during the life of a card, and simply removing scrapbook material. If not, let me reiterate that I am certainly opposed to taking out creases and wrinkles for that reason; also I suppose it is altering the surface of a card as one finds it although that rationale gets a bit tricky. |
#41
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: andy becker
i don't think it is ever ok to alter a card. |
#42
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: T206Collector
Peter, |
#43
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
To take the discussion one step further, Paul (and others), if it's OK to use pressure to remove a wrinkle, is it also OK to spoon a corner? If not what's the difference, one isn't using chemicals or adding material? |
#44
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: T206Collector
I think you and I agree a lot more than not. You and I share a strong interest in finding that line that collectors are willing to cross over, though we may end up on different sides of those lines. It seems to me it is a very personal decision based on gut feelings and emotions. It is almost a religion, with people referencing "taboos" and "sins." I find the discussion very enlightening and interesting -- ultimately, just entertaining. |
#45
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
I am ok with b. While I don't have a strong gut reaction against erasing a light pencil mark providing it doesn't alter the surface, I think to be consistent I would have to say no to that because it involves changing wear a card acquired during its natural life. I am opposed to the rest of the items on the list. |
#46
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Paul, |
#47
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Andy, |
#48
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: T206Collector
Jim, |
#49
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: steve f
b, d; |
#50
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Soaking a card?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Paul, |
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