Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[tedzan]

Francis Joseph "Lefty" O'Doul is one of my favorite guys in Baseball. It mystifies me, why Lefty O'Doul is not in the BB Hall of Fame.
For starters, Lefty's career BA is an outstanding .349 over a Major League career that spanned 11 years. His hitting ability is high-lighted by a .398 BA with
254 Hits, 32 HR's, 122 RBI's, while playing for the Phillies in 1929. He followed that up with a .383 BA in 1930. I could continue with all the reasons why he
should have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame, but I leave it to you to read his SABR write-up...... https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/lefty-odoul/

Between his playing years, and his years as a Manager in the PCL, Lefty is a tremendous example of Baseball at it's best.

Let's hear your stories of some of the BB players who you feel have been neglected to be in inducted in Baseball's Hall of Fame.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[ClementeFanOh]

Bad Bill Dahlen!

Trent King

[G1911]

The person who most belongs in the Hall of Fame but is not in is (in my opinion) James Creighton, who seems more than anyone to have shifted the game from offense vs. defense to being oriented around pitcher vs. batter. The way the veteran committees work now suggests he ain't getting in anytime soon either.

O'Doul was a starter for five seasons and played 970 games. I think he has a good case for his contributions to the game paired with his obvious talent in a very short career, but his contributions to the game are central in a country that the Hall of Fame is not set up to recognize.

I would vote for Bill Dahlen.

I am surprised Gil Hodges is not in, with his managing of the 1968 Mets as the cherry on top to an excellent career with a mythologized team.

Kenny Lofton may or may not deserve it, but he sure deserved to actually be considered. I hope he gets an honest examination someday.

[Casey2296]

I'll agree on Lefty O'Doul and Dahlen, would also add Dummy Hoy, Coombs, Magee, & Wood.
_

[Seven]

Wonderful post, Ted!

I would normally say Minnie Minoso, as I think he's put together a more than impressive resume. I feel like he's defintely gotten some more attention lately though, with Negro League Stats being worked in. Luis tiant is another, who I think really deserves the nod, as he had some very impressive years, with the Red Sox

In recent history, Kenny Lofton would be another player that had some incredible years on the field, only to immediately fall off the ballot.

Maybe a less conventional pick, due to the circumstances, and maybe belongs more in the "Hall of Fame talent" category, but, Cecil Travis deserves some consideration. He was a hell of a ballplayer, put together 8 high quality seasons before the War. Suffered frostbite, comes back and is a shell of his former self. I think he technically hits the service time requirement, but will probably never get in.

[boysblue]

Whenever one of these types of 'conversations' starts up I always mention Dave Steib. I admit my bias as a Blue Jays fan, but to me he was--along with Jack Morris, I suppose--the dominant AL starter of the '80s.

A horse who got absolutely robbed in '84 Cy Young voting (fourth? seriously?!). Check it out: Pete Vukovich had nowhere near the year Steib had. There was a five-year stretch where everytime he took the ball there was a chance that he might toss a no-no. He did: once. Though he lost a couple of others in the ninth, and came within a whisker of tossing back-to-back no-hitters if memory serves. And all of this with a lousy team behind him and an equally lousy bullpen to save games for him (that might explain why he threw so many innings and so many complete games).

Never had a real shot at the post-season either: he was past-it by the time the Jays got good as team. I have always maintained that had he played for a quality team--especially one with a large following--Dave Steib would be a borderline HOFer.

[Topnotchsy]

I'll echo some of the names already mentioned:

- Lefty O'Doul - Playing career + huge role in baseball's popularity in Japan + PCL manager
- Kenny Lofton - Way better career than Lou Brock. Much better fielder, way better baserunner (Brock's caught stealing's almost completely mitigated the value of his stolen bases
- Minnie Minoso - Think he warrants entry, particularly when combining his Negro League career (which was short) with his career in the MLB. (Using MLB in the way it was used then. I recognize that the Negro Leagues are now officially a Major League).
- Johan Santana - I much prefer a Hall-of-Fame with the players who were elite, even if only for a shorter period of time. Santana was the best pitcher in baseball for roughly 5 years. I'll take him in over Jack Morris personally (though I am sure others disagree).
- Andruw Jones - Arguably the best defensive centerfielder ever. 400+ home runs.
- Dick "Cannonball" Redding - One of the greatest pitchers to ever play in the Negro Leagues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rick Reuschel or however you spell it might have been a bit better than his counting stats.

Dewey Evans had a nice career.

There are the usual suspects like Gil Hodges and Dale Murphy and Tony Oliva and Dick Allen.

One of my favorites, Luis Tiant.

Jim Kaat and Tommy John with close to 300 wins each.

[egri]

Billy Pierce.

[Mike D.]

I believe there are a bunch of 2nd basemen who deserve enshrinement.

In rough order, Whitaker, Grich, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Pedroia, maybe Kinsler.

Cano would also be on the list if he hadn't been stupid and popped for steroids (and twice, no less).

[G1911]

Minoso really should be in, it's long overdue at this point.

Curt Schilling is clearly a HOFer, I'm fine with a world where a pitcher of his quality is not in, but by the Hall's standards with their SP picks the last decade, he belongs.

Jeff Kent has a very good case as one of the best hitting 2B ever, but seems to be getting little real consideration and is going to fall off the ballot.

For the pre-war side, Larry Doyle has a good case and has not been mentioned, I think.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you think 3B is underrepresented, Ken Boyer.

[Orioles1954]

Cecil Travis

[bbcard1]

The problem with Lefty O'Doul is the problem with Buck O'Neil. They made significant contributions, but their contributions do not fit within the parameters of the way hall of fame voters are instructed to cast their votes. Of course, Curt Schilling is a case in point that many of the voters don't care.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Cecil Travis

I don't think you can make assumptions about years someone never played, although obviously before the war he was headed in that direction. If I recall Kenny Cole and I debated this one a while back. Knowing Kenny, he probably thinks he won lol.

[Jason19th]

Firpo Marberry should be in as the first great relief pitcher. 148 wins, 99 saves and a .627 winning percentage. Was Rollie Fingers before Rollie was even born.

[tedzan]

"Turkey Mike" Donlin is one of my favorite T206 subjects. His life story is part of the reason why I like him.
In 1905, John McGraw made Donlin the Captain of the New York Giants....and Mike enjoyed his best season, batting a career-high .356, with 216 Hits
and Mike led the NL with 124 Runs. Mike's career BA = .333, if he had taken his BB career more seriously.... "he would have been a contender" …..for
the Hall of Fame. Instead, he and his wife were very much devoted to Vaudeville. In New York City they were the "Talk of the Town".

Hey Guys.... you can catch "Turkey Mike" on the TCM Channel when they are featuring the old Silent Movies. Donlin appeared in 65 movies from 1914
to 1933. Including, the movie classic "The General", and the 1927 very popular BB movie...."Slide Kelly Slide".


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SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #30


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[G1911]

Donlin is an interesting guy, but he was a starter for 5 seasons. For a guy whose claim to baseball greatness is a .333 batting average, 1,282 hits is a very small amount.

I'd put him in the "great talent, wasted his career and much of his life" category of what-could-have-been's.

Chick Hafey was a starter for 7 years, the player I can think of with the shortest real tenure in the modern major leagues who made the Hall (and whose election is almost universally derided).

[drcy]

Creighton obviously should be in there

[riggs336]

I always mention Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

[FrankWakefield]

I think the Hall wasn't too far off track when I was a kid...

I recall a book My Greatest Day in Baseball, by Carmichael, I read it several times as a kid; one time I read it and then started and finished it a second time... Most of Those guys belonged in the Hall, and most of those guys were the only ones who belonged in the Hall.

I agree with:

O'Doul
Dahlen
Kaat

I'd DEFINETLY add Ed Reulbach

I could live with Travis Jackson and Joe Wood

No to Lofton, Schilling, A Jones... and others.

Hodges and Murphy were REALLY good guys; but to me they fall a bit short and that 'good guy' and 'deserving' sentiment doesn't and shouldn't tip the scales. Dick Allen wasn't a good guy, but wasn't as bad as some think, I could almost live with him getting in.

I'm a Cardinals fan, starting with seeing Mr. Musial play in 1963. Boyer was a dependable RBI / cleanup hitter in 1964... but he falls a bit short of what I think of as Hall standards. I think Molina will get in, I'm definitely a Molina fan, but I'm thinking he's right at the threshold and needs a bit more...

It's not little league soccer where everyone plays, everyone is included, everyone gets to play a lot, everyone gets a gold star, and everyone gets a trophy. There's already a couple of dozen that I think should have never gone in, and that's realistically unfixable. Let's not compound that by adding more sow's ears to what should have been only silk purses.

[G1911]

If Reulbach is a HOFer, I don't see how Schilling isn't, statistically.

[FrankWakefield]

Get a copy of Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract and read the two page article "Ed Who"

First edition...

[G1911]

I've read it. Reulbach was a fine pitcher. He pitched almost 1,000 innings less than Schilling, with an ERA higher after you adjust for context. I have a hard time seeing how he is a HOFer and Schilling is not still.

[shagrotn77]

Gil Hodges is probably the most glaring omission IMO. Of course, he actually got in in 1994, only to have Ted Williams deny the deciding vote in an act of pure evil, but I digress. I'm not as high on Dahlen as many others are, but I hope he gets in since I have his Mayo rookie . In terms of modern players whose candidacies have been neglected, I'll go with Fred McGriff. He was a model of consistency and if he had hit just 7 more HR, he probably would have been first ballot.

[cardsagain74]

Colavito.

Had the same career numbers as Gil Hodges despite playing in pitchers' parks (so his career OPS+ is a lot higher).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Who here of a certain age didn't think back in the day that Steve Garvey was a lock HOFer? The metrics really were not kind to him.

[paul]

George Van Haltren.
Pete Browning (but I'd hate to have to get one of his cards).

[Tabe]

Albert Belle - one dominant season after another before his career was ended by injury.

Jim Edmonds - 393 homers and elite defensive CF

[FrankWakefield]

George van Haltren would be a good addition.

Schilling... I concede to bias against him. He won 70 more games than he lost. Ed Reulbach won 76 more games than he lost, while pitching in about 170 fewer games, .632 winning compared to .597. Reulbach is ranked 45th in lifetime winning percentage, Schilling 127th. Both are in lofty company. Spud Chandler leads that list.

Bill James' Politics of Glory (I think original edition is best) covers how Hafey and a few others got into the Hall who arguably shouldn't have. Hafey was a Cardinal, as was his HOF mentor Frankie Frisch.

Thank You for reading the Ed Who article... I'm a fan of his, obviously. I don't the the 1908 Cubs even make it to the World Series without him. And if they hadn't, we'd have a few less Cubs cards in T206. The successful teams of the day have more cards.

Edmonds... as a Cardinal I should advocate his induction, but I just think that the line oughta be just a tiny bit beyond. Hall of Fame, not Mansion of Fame. The Few, like with the Marines.

[perezfan]

Vada Pinson, Gil Hodges, Dale Murphy, Curt Schilling and Dummy Hoy would be my top 5.

A bunch of players with nothing at all in common, but all deserving IMHO. Would also love to see Dave Concepcion and George Foster get in some day, but that's more of a sentimental thing.

[moogpowell]

Alone on offense you can make a strong argument for the HOF. Throw in his defense and the case becomes better. Granted, he was hardly likable or someone you'd want to split a croissant with. Moreover, cocaine always hung over his candidacy. But if HOF voters overlooked it for Tim Raines it why should that be an issue for Parker?

Moreover, the idiocy of 3,000 hits equaling automatic entry (Rose aside) rears its ugly head. If Parker had 288 more hits he would be a HOF lock, given historical precedent. That's silly because if he averaged 15 more hits per year to hit 3,000 that wouldn't have materially influenced his offensive profile.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by moogpowell

Alone on offense you can make a strong argument for the HOF. Throw in his defense and the case becomes better. Granted, he was hardly likable or someone you'd want to split a croissant with. Moreover, cocaine always hung over his candidacy. But if HOF voters overlooked it for Tim Raines it why should that be an issue for Parker?

Moreover, the idiocy of 3,000 hits equaling automatic entry (Rose aside) rears its ugly head. If Parker had 288 more hits he would be a HOF lock, given historical precedent. That's silly because if he averaged 15 more hits per year to hit 3,000 that wouldn't have materially influenced his offensive profile.

Agree with Parker. He was the most feared hitter in baseball for a pretty long stretch. And also had that cannon of an arm... good call.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

Gil Hodges is probably the most glaring omission IMO. Of course, he actually got in in 1994, only to have Ted Williams deny the deciding vote in an act of pure evil -

Yep, Hodges is definitely a "glaring" omission - Next chance for him will be in December 2021 when candidates from the "Golden Days" era (1950–1969) are once again considered.....

One of my favorites -

[GaryPassamonte]

Ross Barnes. The first superstar of recognized professional baseball. Only player to hit over .400 in four seasons. Pioneer type players are shamefully underrepresented and almost omitted in the HOF.

[YazFenway08]

I think the state of TN is greatly under-represented in the Hall...

Parisian Bob Caruthers
Clyde Milan
Tommy Bridges
Vada Pinson

I think they all had pretty outstanding careers....probably just short of the Hall but damn fine....

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

Gil Hodges is probably the most glaring omission IMO. .

Gil is a perfect argument against a lot of the players we are discussing here. When you combine his managerial and player record he looks like a hall of fame, however voters are not supposed to vote on anyone as a player/manager. His stats are light as a 50s 1st basemen...not in comparison to the league but in comparison to the established powerhitting HOFers. It wouldn't be a travesty if he were in neither is it one that he's not. Never really lead the league in anything all that significant, WAR well below the established level for firstbasemen, he had a lot of All Star appearances, but so did Ed Bailey. After his career he was Really nice player but you have to be a big hall guy to let him in. He was an under .500 manager, but did get the Mets an amazing world series, so there's that. He would have likely climbed in his win % had he not died young.

Some people will argue he lost years to the war. That's conjecture...he probably didn't miss much time but even if he did you can't make assumptions on "what if." If you're going to do it for Thurman Munson and Gil Hodges you have to do it for Vida Blue and Tony Conigliario.

One other thing. He was only 47 when he died, which is tragic, but I have neve seen a picture of him, even from his early days when he looked younger than 47.

[maniac_73]

I think Carlos Delgado and Fred McGriff are overlooked because they came up in the Steroid Era.

[dealme]

I would like to see Tommy John get in not only for the nearly 300 wins, but also for the surgery that bears his name. I also like seeing Vada Pinson getting some love in this thread. When I first started taking baseball seriously as a player (maybe 6th grade?), my dad borrowed an instructional video from the coach at the high school where he taught. It had Vada Pinson going through various hitting drills. He's been an under-the-radar favorite of mine ever since.

[milkit1]

Id vote for Johnny Kling. He was constantly voted best catcher by his peers whom played with him and he lead the Cubs to 3 straight pennants, took a year off (Cubs finish 2nd) comes back and brings the cubs to the series again in '10

1906 cubs.jpg

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

I think Carlos Delgado and Fred McGriff are overlooked because they came up in the Steroid Era.

Fred McGriff and his 493 HRs is in if not for the 1994 strike, which robbed him of at least 7 HR. He was having his best season, with 34 home runs in his 113 games, before the player strike wiped out the rest of the season.

I have no sympathy for the players regarding that strike but it's too bad most of them (Molitor, Morris, etc.) didn't pay a price like McGriff.

[sdimag]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Francis Joseph "Lefty" O'Doul is one of my favorite guys in Baseball. It mystifies me, why Lefty O'Doul is not in the BB Hall of Fame.
For starters, Lefty's career BA is an outstanding .349 over a Major League career that spanned 11 years. His hitting ability is high-lighted by a .398 BA with
254 Hits, 32 HR's, 122 RBI's, while playing for the Phillies in 1929. He followed that up with a .383 BA in 1930. I could continue with all the reasons why he
should have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame, but I leave it to you to read his SABR write-up...... https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/lefty-odoul/

Between his playing years, and his years as a Manager in the PCL, Lefty is a tremendous example of Baseball at it's best.

Let's hear your stories of some of the BB players who you feel have been neglected to be in inducted in Baseball's Hall of Fame.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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O’Doul is in the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame. An unofficial ambassador for baseball, he brought the DiMaggio’s and later The Babe and other stars to Japan!He managed Joe and Dom when they started out with the Seals.Dom credited Lefty for making him a major league hitter! Lefty brought his teams to Japan postwar which definitely help the US/Japan relations.

[jchcollins]

I think Minnie Minoso is probably the most glaring omission. Hodges is likely in that conversation as well.

With everyone else, different people have their personal favorites. I'd like to see Tiant get in. And Steve Garvey - though I understand why he's not in - relatively weak for a 1B in career homers, not a great OBP - low WAR if you want to evaluate him on advanced stats - but there is a decent argument to be made he was the best 1B in the NL for about a decade. He has everything else - the ASG appearances, the awards...

[abothebear]

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think you can make assumptions about years someone never played, although obviously before the war he was headed in that direction. If I recall Kenny Cole and I debated this one a while back. Knowing Kenny, he probably thinks he won lol.

I don't think I won. I feel like we each argued our perspectives and left it at that. It was up to others to decide whose arguments carried the most weight, although I still feel pretty strongly that he deserves consideration.

[bjerome]

My friend and I had a pretty lengthy debate regarding Harold Baines before he was elected. He was for, I was against. At that time, I listed him in what I called the HALL OF VERY GOOD. What I also did was ask myself a question regarding his candidacy. I asked myself "did he play his way into the conversation?", meaning does his career have a legitimate possibility that he could be looked at as far as the Hall of Fame Conversation goes. In looking at it that way my answer was a very overwhelming yes, he did play his way to consideration for the honor. As far as I'm concerned, once your name's in the conversation (Especially in the Vet's Committee), anything can happen. I have stuck to that logic ever since.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

I think Carlos Delgado and Fred McGriff are overlooked because they came up in the Steroid Era.

I don’t think I would vote for Delgado in the end, but he very much deserved a fair look and genuine consideration instead of falling off the ballot first year.

McGriff I think belongs. If we keep out the steroid guys but only elect guys with steroid-level stats like Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey very few players from this era will be making the hall.

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are the usual suspects like Gil Hodges and Dale Murphy and Tony Oliva and Dick Allen.

I'm on Team Peter...and his additional comment on Ken Boyer. Add Minnie Minoso...


It would be nice if a few already in the HOF could be traded out...several simply don't belong.

Gil Hodges for Barry Larkin??? And so on....

[pitchernut]

First off, I don't believe this player is a HOFer. What I find interesting is that the second article assures the player into the HOF. I have a couple pre-1936 articles that assure the "no-no" pitcher a place in the HOF. What baffles me is what "HOF" are they talking about in 1916? I was always under the impression the HOF was created around 1936... Was there a HOF back then? Also, is the T-200 of Boston AL the only publicly available ephemera of George "Rube" Foster?.
PS sorry for sideways pics, and Smokey Joe should be in.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

What’s your favorite team?