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#51
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jim spence
Posted By: Anonymous
You know that im not trying to insult or put down anyone here but your last statement makes some one belive that some of the signtures are good is by far the most out landish statement I have ever heard. If Jimmy Spence in his LOA wrote that the campy erskin robinson reese alston furrilo are fake but the rest are good what do think this ball would sell for. I cant belive that your are telling me that by saying club house you can sell the ball as partly real without knowing which players signitures are real or not. In his artical the way I read it and the way he shows it all the signitures are phoney. No where did he say that the ball had any real signitures. |
#52
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jim spence
Posted By: MW
Actually, it's not a ball full of forgeries. Most of the clubhouse signatures on the ball are confined to a single panel. This is typical of a 1955 Brooklyn Dodgers clubhouse baseball. |
#53
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jim spence
Posted By: Anonymous
Tell me where you know what is good and what is bad. He said that this is a clubhouse ball because of certain things whithin the ball the panel was only part of the statement. I dont know if I am talking to Jimmey or not but your arguements are beyond belive. The ball has some of the most important people on that are forged forged forged. that makes the dodger team ball a forgery/. It say dodger team ball. if any part of the ball is forged its not a team ball any longer. Are you pulling my chain or are you a complete idiot. |
#54
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
Please tell me what signitures on the dodger ball are real. please show me where spence says any of the signtures are real. I just dont understand how some one can make a ball that is garbage into something other than what it is. |
#55
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jim spence
Posted By: scgaynor
The LOA that you are talking about is almost 5 years old. I believe that things have changed in the way that LOA's are written since that time. |
#56
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
your company deals with consignment and I know you do your best to have everything that you sell authenticated. Im only trying to help the poor slob who is just learning. A letter should tell you everything about the item and if the item is forged it should say forged not clubhouse. I only want everyone smart or dumb to be able to read a LOA and have no doubts about what it says. ball. I would be interested in seeing a more up to date letter from psa telling me what signitures are real or not on a dodger ball. I know that if its a yankee ball they will say mantle clubhouse but not anyone else. I also think that it should be called a forged signiture because that is what it is. I think they dont call it a forgery because the price of the ball would go way down. |
#57
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jim spence
Posted By: Judge Dred
In response to Rob |
#58
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jim spence
Posted By: Scott Forrest
this is a typical nouveau-Net 54 witch hunt...it's what the board has devolved into - a forum for newbies to come in and roast their enemies prior to contributing anything meaningful whatsoever that's related to vintage cards. |
#59
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
There where hundreds of Mantle Williams sweet spot balls sold as real signitures to many people in the late 80's early 90's. These people then went out and had them signed by the other five hundred hr hitters. Psa Global Online authenticts would not authenticate the balls if they caught them in time. Why? Aren't the Mantle and Williams clubhouse signitures and the other signitures good. There where over 5000 hr balls sold that where forgerys in that time period are they not clubhouse balls. Why is it that these have no value. They are part of history. What about all the Ruth Pieces that psa authenticated that where photo copys. Should we call them clubhouse and give them value. |
#60
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jim spence
Posted By: scgaynor
Shelly, it has been my experience that they list all clubhouse signatures on the LOA. If they only list Mantle, then Mantle is most likely the only clubhouse signature on the ball. |
#61
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
Scott im not new to this hobby. Im the one that just had Heitman come on and answer your questions. this is not a witch hunt this is as important to your questions regarding trimming bleaching and all the other problems in the card side of the hobby. If we protect each other and stop the bs that is out there we can all feel comfortable about dealing in this business. I have been in the hobby fof over 30 years. I just wanted to say what i felt was wrong with the side I know best. |
#62
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jim spence
Posted By: davidcycleback
I agree Scott. This thread started because Spence supposedly called a clubhouse ball a ball autographed by the players. No one had actually read the text of the LOA, but naturally that makes no difference. When it turned out Spence did call it a clubhouse ball, some had to find something new to moan about. |
#63
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jim spence
Posted By: Scott Forrest
but we need to witch-hunt "responsibly". |
#64
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
You are right everyone that said that the loa was ambiguous is wrong.Spence is right. Now tell me what signitures are real on the ball. Or if there are no real signitures how can someone sell it. |
#65
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jim spence
Posted By: scgaynor
Shelly, those other signatures on the 500 HR ball's are not "clubhouse", they are modern "forgeries". My point is that there is a difference. Facsimilies are also not "clubhouse", they are simply printed like a photocopy or rubber stamp. The autograph hobby does not use the term clubhouse in that way. |
#66
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jim spence
Posted By: Rob L
What do you mean, that an LOA of 100 cards is viable if they are all authentic. You, as well as I know of numerous times that items that were covered under one of these blanket LOAs failed when resubmitted. Ask Kevin Keating about this. Auction house LOAs aren't worth the paper they are written. It's just a cheap practice used by the auction houses to pump alot of stuff out, including items that are considered crap. |
#67
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jim spence
Posted By: scgaynor
I said a blanket cert is fine if they are all authentic. |
#68
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jim spence
Posted By: Rob L
Okay, but that means that we have to assume that all of the autographs are legit. There are to many times that items from these lots are sent in individually and fail. I have personally discussed this with Spence a year ago and he said that the items are given a cursory review and the price for these reviews is less. It's cheap and doesn't work. I can give you an LOA that stands up good as these. |
#69
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jim spence
Posted By: scgaynor
It is much cheaper to do the auction house style LOA's. I get them done from time to time but PSA/DNA has always done more than a cursory review. I, however, break things down more than most catalog auctions so the lots are generally single items or have just a few pieces. I also have other checks and balances in place for authentication. |
#70
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
scaygonor. what about the balls that have nine good signitures. does the ball have value or because of the phoney mantle and williams is the ball worthless. It seem to me that if a dodger ball that has phoney sigs with good ones have value why not the five hundred that has nine good signitures. |
#71
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jim spence
Posted By: scgaynor
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#72
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jim spence
Posted By: Judge Dred
Scott, |
#73
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
Well the problem with the five hundred hr ball is that no real authenticator will pass it because of the forged mantle and williams. yet they will authenticate a forge dodger ball from the fiftys. It doesnt make any sense. |
#74
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jim spence
Posted By: scgaynor
In a perfect world, there would be no way to manipulate the certs, but where there is a will, there is a way. |
#75
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jim spence
Posted By: davidcycleback
The key is to buy your autographs from reputable and honest sellers. It's not the honest people who lie and cheat, it's the dishonest people. |
#76
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jim spence
Posted By: Dan
Spence was lazy in what he wrote and that was his only crime which was done five years ago. He should not have issued an LOA stating it was an authentic 'clubhouse' which still commands SOME value as opposed to a freshly scribbled on ball which are seemingly all over the place. This seller doesn't know what a clubhouse ball is because it is a 'drop off'. What's the big deal really? There are WAY bigger problems in the business than that. What about all these sellers who sell 'freshly made' forgeries or better yet, ones that get 'authenticators' who aren't exactly that to say that their items are good? Why don't we attack them? |
#77
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jim spence
Posted By: Dan
Scott, |
#78
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jim spence
Posted By: Richard Simon
What it comes down to is this. The ball was being sold in Christie's which attracts a large crowd of people who would never, ever know what the words "clubhouse version" means. They would read the sentence about all signatures being authentic and that is what would register in their minds. The crowd at Christie's does not consist of the people on this board for the most part. It is a moneyed crowd that is there for fun and to buy something that they can put on their doctor, lawyer, accountant office walls or shelves, but that has no connection to the hobby. One of those non hobbyists would easily misconstrue the COA. |
#79
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jim spence
Posted By: scgaynor
Danny (who else would be Jack Chesbro), I picked Geoff Zahn because he has special meaning to me. I literally learned to read off of Baseball Cards. My father would buy four packs a week from the drug store for me and I would read the names outloud to him and he would correct me if I pronounced the name wrong. I remember getting a Geoff Zahn card and not even knowing where to begin. On such memories is the Baseball Card hobby based. |
#80
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
I agee 100 percent.Im not just picking on Spence I think that there is a group of Authenticators out there that are total disasters. AAU Donald Fragipani Christoper Morales (the new authenticator for Coaches Corner} William Tell and the list goes on. These are the guys that say there Forensic experts. Take a look at Coaches Corner auctions it will make you sick. |
#81
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jim spence
Posted By: Dan
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#82
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jim spence
Posted By: Dan
Scott, |
#83
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jim spence
Posted By: J.McMurry
"Take a look at Coaches Corner auctions it will make you sick." |
#84
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
why not other people that have been talked about have come on here and where treated with respect. |
#85
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jim spence
Posted By: Bill Cornell
why not other people that have been talked about have come on here and where treated with respect. |
#86
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jim spence
Posted By: Glenn
I had to read it a few times myself. I think what he meant was: |
#87
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jim spence
Posted By: shellyjaffe
Thanks that is what I meant. Sorry for not writeing it correctly. |
#88
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jim spence
Posted By: J.McMurry
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#89
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jim spence
Posted By: Richard Simon
James Spence's five-year deal with PSA/DNA expires this spring and the veteran dealer/authenticator appears he's not going to renew his agreement. Spence told Sweet Spot Online that the contract offered him by PSA/DNA was unacceptable and "insulting." A noncompete clause in the original contract would effectively take Spence out of the sports memorabilia business for one year, Spence said. Joe Orlando, president of PSA/DNA, told Sweet Spot it would be inappropriate for him to comment. |
#90
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jim spence
Posted By: WP
PSA is not worth a damn when it comes to vintage sigs without Spence. Any thoughts on what he might do? |
#91
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jim spence
Posted By: davidcycleback
I'm not entering into the big signature and authenticity debate, but I feel I should note that of the hobby 'big wigs' I have personally dealt with, I found one of the nicest and most helpful was Spence. My guess is that many others posting on the board would have a similar impression of him if they dealt with him personally. |
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