"1965 Swedish Candy Clay" now "1968 Dutch Gum Clay"??

[D. Bergin]

I understand why Tyson is heavily collected and I don't disagree with the reasons, but there's several living Heavyweights I'd rank above him.

Lennox
Holyfield
Holmes

maybe even Foreman

I'd rank Tyson above both Klitschko brothers historically, but I think prime Tyson would have had his hands full with Vitali.

Prime Tyson would have likely knocked out Wlad, but slightly past prime Tyson would have had his hands full with him also. Especially the later version of Wlad that learned how stay out of danger on the inside by leaning his full body weight onto his opponent, and wearing his guy down that way. Tyson would have become super frustrated if he couldn't find the space to knock him out early.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I understand why Tyson is heavily collected and I don't disagree with the reasons, but there's several living Heavyweights I'd rank above him.

Lennox
Holyfield
Holmes

maybe even Foreman

I'd rank Tyson above both Klitschko brothers historically, but I think prime Tyson would have had his hands full with Vitali.

Prime Tyson would have likely knocked out Wlad, but slightly past prime Tyson would have had his hands full with him also. Especially the later version of Wlad that learned how stay out of danger on the inside by leaning his full body weight onto his opponent, and wearing his guy down that way. Tyson would have become super frustrated if he couldn't find the space to knock him out early.

An ancient George Foreman came close to knocking out Holyfield in his prime, or at least rattled him pretty badly. How good could he have been? He always struck me, and admittedly I am not an expert, as an amazing athlete but not the world's most skilled boxer. My memory of Holyfield Foreman is that even though Foreman was well past his prime and outmatched, you could see his boxing skills were superior.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

An ancient George Foreman came close to knocking out Holyfield in his prime, or at least rattled him pretty badly. How good could he have been? He always struck me, and admittedly I am not an expert, as an amazing athlete but not the world's most skilled boxer. My memory of Holyfield Foreman is that even though Foreman was well past his prime and outmatched, you could see his boxing skills were superior.

I think if young George Foreman had been as smart and patient as old George Foreman, we might be having an entirely different conversation about All-Time Greatest, then we are right now.

As far as Holyfield goes, guy was just a grinder. Small Heavyweight that over-achieved and held his own or straight up beat guys much bigger then him.

Tyson might have been shorter, but there's no question he was always a Heavyweight. Tyson was weighing in at 214 lb's at 18 years old. Holyfield was fighting at under 180 at 22 yrs. old and didn't even leave the Cruiserweight division until he was almost 26.

[Exhibitman]

Ali did fight Tyson...or a better version of Tyson. His name was Joe Frazier. The main difference I see between the two is mental. Tyson was a head case, especially after Cus D'Amato died and the women started doing a number on him. Ali would have gotten soooo far into his psyche. Also, Ali was lightning fast in his prime. When Frazier got him, Ali had lost a step, yet it was still very close. Tyson got inside of immobile fighters. He never faced anything like Ali's speed and movement. Plus, I have to question Tyson's capacity to cope with adversity. After all, he did get so frustrated with Holyfield that he decided to go Hannibal the Cannibal on him. I think Ali would have cut him to pieces and driven him nuts at the same time. tyson cannot cut off the ring and close on a fighter he can't catch. My only question is which ear of Ali's he'd have bitten off.

As far as Holyfield and Louis go, well, they did beat Tyson. So did Buster Douglas, and that was pre-prison.

In terms of cards, I honestly do not understand why Tyson is as popular as he is, but I am not complaining. I still have a few tough, early Tyson cards to slab and sell off.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think if young George Foreman had been as smart and patient as old George Foreman, we might be having an entirely different conversation about All-Time Greatest, then we are right now.

As far as Holyfield goes, guy was just a grinder. Small Heavyweight that over-achieved and held his own or straight up beat guys much bigger then him.

Tyson might have been shorter, but there's no question he was always a Heavyweight. Tyson was weighing in at 214 lb's at 18 years old. Holyfield was fighting at under 180 at 22 yrs. old and didn't even leave the Cruiserweight division until he was almost 26.

Yeah, Foreman never should have lost to Ali.