Shoeless Joe Jackson Auto- Fake?

[SteveS]

It just seems fascinating to me that the museum says 100% fake, and in the "Strange Inheritance" episode swarmee posted above, at the 15:40 mark the host asks Steve Grad how sure he is that it's authentic, and he says 100%. No leeway in those opinions. So somebody has to be 100% right, and somebody has to be 100% wrong. And both are considered to be experts in the subject matter. I am neither an expert on Joe Jackson nor his autograph. But based on its scarcity and his known struggle with signing his name, I can't see any way to say with absolute certainty that a purported Joe Jackson signature is authentic (excluding the very obvious fakes, such as on a Bud Selig ball). Maybe someday in the future there will be a way to isolate DNA or a fingerprint on a 100 year-old photo that's been handled by many people. But I assume that the person who spent that much money on it did the research and is satisfied with the purchase. The trimmed Wagner sells for millions, despite everyone knowing that its trimmed.

In trying to find out more about this topic, I found this interesting Joe Jackson item on eBay. Maybe the seller is a member here. But apparently Joe practiced signing his name before placing a signature, and this is a piece of that practice attempt. So maybe his signature varied based on how much practice he got. In any event, after the sale price of the signed photo, maybe this is now a good bargain: https://www.ebay.com/itm/14272455219...AAAOSwpixarEdm

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by SteveS

It just seems fascinating to me that the museum says 100% fake, and in the "Strange Inheritance" episode swarmee posted above, at the 15:40 mark the host asks Steve Grad how sure he is that it's authentic, and he says 100%. No leeway in those opinions. So somebody has to be 100% right, and somebody has to be 100% wrong. And both are considered to be experts in the subject matter.

Why is the assumption being made that the "museum" is an expert whose opinion on signature authenticity ought to be respected? I'm ignorant here, so I'm asking this question honestly. Why do people care what this guy thinks? What are his credentials other than being some random fan who bought his house and some memorabilia and lets people tour it for a fee?

[samosa4u]

I am the Joe Jackson autograph expert here! I own a few of his signatures which were given to me by my father. He got them from his grandfather, whose girlfriend's neighbor's brother's best friend's mistress knew Joe! Here is a GENUINE signature below:

And yes, it is available for $2.5 million USD or you can trade me a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle in PSA 8

Thank you

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I am the Joe Jackson autograph expert here! I own a few of his signatures which were given to me by my father. He got them from his grandfather, whose girlfriend's neighbor's brother's best friend's mistress knew Joe! Here is a GENUINE signature below:

And yes, it is available for $2.5 million USD or you can trade me a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle in PSA 8


Thank you

If you have a '52 Mantle signed by Shoeless Joe, I'll give you $5 million.

But this actually happened to me. My grandmother, who grew up in Chicago and didn't know a whole lot about baseball, said that a friend's brother played for the White Sox and gave her a ball signed by the team. She couldn't remember what she did with it, but it was long gone. I asked her when she got it, and she said she was about six years old. Which would have made it 1919. Ugh.

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why is the assumption being made that the "museum" is an expert whose opinion on signature authenticity ought to be respected? I'm ignorant here, so I'm asking this question honestly. Why do people care what this guy thinks? What are his credentials other than being some random fan who bought his house and some memorabilia and lets people tour it for a fee?

Note that I said "considered to be." I recall a certain other thread in which the issue was discussed about what makes one person more of an expert over anyone else when it comes to whether two things look alike. While I have no doubt that the gentleman who runs the museum is highly knowledgeable about Shoeless Joe's life and baseball career, I am not convinced that he can say with the 100% certainty that he has that the autographed photo is fake. And while I have no doubt Steve Grad has more skill than the average person when it comes to authenticating autographs, his reputation as an expert in the general public's eye comes from his appearances on "Pawn Stars." But Rick knows that if he ever needs a buddy who's an expert about everything, he can give me a call.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why is the assumption being made that the "museum" is an expert whose opinion on signature authenticity ought to be respected? I'm ignorant here, so I'm asking this question honestly. Why do people care what this guy thinks? What are his credentials other than being some random fan who bought his house and some memorabilia and lets people tour it for a fee?

Dan’s definitely not a random fan. LOL. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone who knows more about Jackson than he does. And P.S. Tours are free.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Dan’s definitely not a random fan. LOL. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone who knows more about Jackson than he does. And P.S. Tours are free.

Seriously all I can say is ... those who know know... I can 100% vouched for this take by Jason and will go further and say Dan is probably one of the top 5-7 people on the planet that is an expert on Joe Jackson AND one of maybe 3-5 people who have the knowledge enough to render an opinion on this topic.


Again I will challenge anyone to go find a large Jackson signature which this one would be the largest.

People who are experts in Joe Jackson know and those who are also collectors and are aware of the nuances of signatures know even better and Dan is one of maybe 5 people on the planet that checks both those boxes...again if you know you know

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why is the assumption being made that the "museum" is an expert whose opinion on signature authenticity ought to be respected? I'm ignorant here, so I'm asking this question honestly. Why do people care what this guy thinks? What are his credentials other than being some random fan who bought his house and some memorabilia and lets people tour it for a fee?

Agreed. And for that matter, why is the other, non-museum person's opininion any better or more respected? The only way you personally can ever be 100% certain that someone's alleged autograph was actually signed by them was if you witnessed that individual actually sign and immediately give back the autographed item to you. With the exception of certain business/legal documents and/or items that were notarized or signed by witnesses (and even then, documents as such have still been known to be faked). My understanding is that no one throughout their entire lifetime ever signs their name precisely the exact same way twice........ever! So how exactly can these so called experts ever really be 100% certain that an autograph they are reviewing after the fact was actually signed by the person it was claimed to be signed by? Truth is, they can't. The only thing they can possibly be 100% certain of is when an autograph is fake and not signed by the person it was supposed to be autographed by. For example, when you see an autographed card of some athlete that wasn't even produced till some time after that athlete had already passed away.

I know a friend who has been collecting autographs mostly TTM since the late 1980s, and probably has somewhere between 500,000 to 1,000,000 autographed items today. He was never big into authenticators, and tried an experiment one time to see if he should look into getting at least some of his items authenticated. He had been somewhere that Sandy Alomar Jr. appeared for a signing back in his playing days, and got Sandy to personally autograph a card for him, so he knew it was 100% legit. He then took another Sandy card, and after practicing the signature from the legit autographed card he'd recently gotten a few times, signed a fake Alomar autograph himself on the second card. He then went ahead and submitted both cards together for authentication to one of the major, recognized autograph authentication and grading companies that is still doing it today. And guess what, the card Sandy autographed for him in person came back as a fake, while the card he had forged Alomar's signature came back as a legit Sandy Alomar Jr. autograph. I'll give you three guesses what his opinion is of these so called autograph experts, and the first two don't count. Needless to say, he's never wasted even a plugged nickel on having anything else of his "professionally" authenticated.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BobC

I know a friend who has been collecting autographs mostly TTM since the late 1980s, and probably has somewhere between 500,000 to 1,000,000 autographed items today. He was never big into authenticators, and tried an experiment one time to see if he should look into getting at least some of his items authenticated. He had been somewhere that Sandy Alomar Jr. appeared for a signing back in his playing days, and got Sandy to personally autograph a card for him, so he knew it was 100% legit. He then took another Sandy card, and after practicing the signature from the legit autographed card he'd recently gotten a few times, signed a fake Alomar autograph himself on the second card. He then went ahead and submitted both cards together for authentication to one of the major, recognized autograph authentication and grading companies that is still doing it today. And guess what, the card Sandy autographed for him in person came back as a fake, while the card he had forged Alomar's signature came back as a legit Sandy Alomar Jr. autograph. I'll give you three guesses what his opinion is of these so called autograph experts, and the first two don't count. Needless to say, he's never wasted even a plugged nickel on having anything else of his "professionally" authenticated.

I recall seeing a story about someone at a show. They got an auto from a guest at the show and then walked over to get it authenticated. It was deemed fake.

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I recall seeing a story about someone at a show. They got an auto from a guest at the show and then walked over to get it authenticated. It was deemed fake.

I can't find the link for it, but I remember seeing a video from a local news channel somewhere that did a report on authenticators. They prepared a fake autographed photo, then took it to a show where that person was signing. The TPG that was offering instant service authenticated it after barely looking at it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by SteveS

I can't find the link for it, but I remember seeing a video from a local news channel somewhere that did a report on authenticators. They prepared a fake autographed photo, then took it to a show where that person was signing. The TPG that was offering instant service authenticated it after barely looking at it.

Not surprising at all. And I'll bet it happens more often than you can imagine.

The card doctors and others altering items is bad enough, but it may likely be eclipsed by the fake autographs out there that have been authenticated and encapsulated for decades now by the so called "experts". Some of the estimates that people have put forth over the years as to the overall percentage of sports autographs out there being fakes is truly mind boggling. Big reason that though I have some autographs, it is a very small part of my collection, with most of them being cards distributed as autographed cards by the card manufacturers. Hopefully those are all legit athlete signatures.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hopefully those are all legit athlete signatures.

I know of at least five athletes who either autopenned those or had family members sign them:
Dak Prescott (Autopen)
Shaquille O'Neal (family members way back when)
Luka (highly likely mom signed many of his RC autos)
Steve McMichael (signed by wife)
Bill Cowher (Signed books) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=464kJ3tMgVA

Bunch of signed books exposed in this thread as autopen:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1341412
Seth McFarlane: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...hlight=autopen
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...hlight=autopen
Florida Georgia Line: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...hlight=autopen