The Magie - Doyle Error vs Variation Caper

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P

Joe P.

205.188.209.7
Jay why is it? December 11 2003, 6:38 AM

That the Magie name spelling error is called an error, and some call The Slow Joe Doyle league designation error a variation?

Joe P.
-------------------------------------------------------Jay behrens

68.119.25.218
Re: Jay why is it? December 12 2003, 1:27 AM

I think most likely goes back to the days of Burdick and the original collectors. They weren't so hung up on symantecs, so error and variation essentially meant the same thing. Technically, the card is a variation, but from the time I got into the hobby in 1980, it was always called an error.

Jay
------------------------------------------------------
runscott

68.217.11.86
Technically, the "Magie" card is an "Error" December 12 2003, 1:24 PM

If an error is discovered and the problem is corrected, then the original issue is an error.

A variation is when multiple versions of the same card exist, and none are incorrect. This isn't a matter of semantics, but rather a use of the correct descriptors.
-------------------------------------------------------
Fellow collectors thank you for your take, thoughts and response to the question.
Please allow me to give you my take.

As I understand it, a variation is usually the results of a color misstep during the printing process, like the Sweeney in the T206 with or without the "B".
Or the adjusted change of team emblem on the T207 Paddy Livingston card.

Now the Magie and Slow Joe Doyle cards, are definitely
man created errors.
1. One, in the spelling of the name.
2. The other, in confusing the Slow Joe Doyle card, a pitcher with the New York Highlanders with Larry Doyle an infielder of the New York Giants. ..... thus the Nat'l League error.

Folks, as a youngster during the mid 1940's I got to learn how to set type, and use an old printing press in a school.
The operations of that old monster scared the hell out of me, but it was interesting.
Setting type, and correcting it once it's discovered that there's an error, doesn't take that much time.

Due to the scarcity, I surmise that The Doyle error must have been discovered real quick.
What really gets me is why didn't they correct the League desination to N.Y. Amer.?

Is there a Doyle card out there with N.Y. Amer.?

Tune in tomorrow, same time, same station.
For the adventures of "The Monster."

(tobacco-r-us)

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

The answer is simple.

1) There is a variation to a card if there are slight differences when looking at different examples of this card. For example, one card might have a different font or case for a line of text. Or one card the player’s emblem is airbrushed out while on the other it appears.

2) An error is an error. Magee spelled his name 'M-A-G-E-E.' Whether it's on his math homework, job application or on a baseball card, spelling his name 'M-A-G-I-E’ is an error. An error is not determined by whether or not it was corrected or, if the card is changed by the printers, the sequence of change (error the correction, correct the error).

3) If there is an error and a correct version (such as with Magee/Magie), the error is both an error and a variation. The correct version is a variation but not an error.

4) One way or the other, the Doyle card has variations (obviously, one rarer than the other). Though I am merely offering my interpretation and others are welcome to disagree, I have never seen either of the Doyle variations as an error, or at least not as an obvious error. Each is just different from the other.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

I will point out that, when there is a variation, it is common to say one is the 'standard' and the other one with the small difference is the varation from the standard. Commonly, the standard or 'base' card is judged to be the one that came first, is most plentiful and was figuratively whole. In classical music, you often hear of 'theme and variation'-- meaning, the basic msuic followed by different versions with intentional embelishments or other changes .... The problem with old baseball cards and similar, it's often impossible to determine which example came first, what changes where intentional and why. In these grey or unknowable cases, the hobby often comes up with its own definitions and conceits ('We have decided to call this card the regular card and this card the variation, and not the other way around'), which serve a practical function but collectors should realize involve heavy doses arbitrariness and shouldn't be taken too seriously ... For all hobbies and fields, most generally used definitions are there for a matter of convenience (usually to facilitate communication) and are not literally correct.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P.

Hankron:
"The problem with old baseball cards and similar, it's often impossible to determine which example came first, what changes where intentional and why. In these grey or unknowable cases, the hobby often comes up with its own definitions and conceits"
*
*
*
What you say may be true about variations, but we are talking about obvious errors here.
The misspelling of a name, and a wrong league designation being the other.
It is also obvious that the error comes first, and it's all a question of how fast they catch it and correct it.
By the way, technically speaking, the so called corrected card of Slow Joe Doyle could easily fall into the category of an error.
Just like in baseball, one can commit an error, or make an error of omission.
Musically speaking, I guess we can call that a Fugue.

I've stated that I've set type and worked a printing press.
It only takes seconds to change the league designation from Nat'l to Amer.
What they did was retrieve the type and got rid of the Nat'l without replacing it with the Amer.
Why, I'll never know.
They got rid of the smoking gun, and left Slow Joe without a league.
If you look at Slow Joe's card, it's the only card in the whole T206 set that looks off balance.
Doyle N.Y.

Stay tuned,
Joe P.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

As far as Slow Joe goes, if you or others want to call it an error that is fine. Your last post is convincing and logically sound and I honestly have no reason to disagree with it-- other than my admitedly subjective feeling is that 'There's nothing wrong with the Doyle, it's just different.' To me, difference doesn't inherently mean one is right and one is wrong-- even when it's known what the artist or printer intended.

In the end, whether or not they are errors or whether or not you or I want to call them errors, both the Magie and Doyle are varations. It's perfectly reasonable to call the Magie a 'variation' and it's perfectly reasonable to call the Doyle a 'variation.'

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P.

Hankron please forgive me but you're beginning to sound almost like anonymous, he of the unmoveable (my word) mindset.
Of course the Magie and the Doyle are variations, BUT we're talking about the causes of the variation.

1. One derivative to printing missteps, and adjustments.

2. The other caused by someone inadvertently inserting erroneous information on the card.

Simply stated -- It's all relatively simple.
The collector, including big and smalltime speculators, will always have to pay more for an error card, especially if the error was caught early causing even more of a scarcity.

Hankron, I can see that variations and errors are not part of your collecting baggage, and there's nothing wrong with that. .... some of my best friends etc etc etc.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, it's part of my collecting baggage, and I'm learning something new every day.
I appreciate your take on the subject, it's a good one.

Joe P.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

Joe, obviously much of my focus on the subject lies elewhere (the inherent contrivance of naming and defining. Exhibit A: 'Rookie Card'), but I have yet to object to the Doyle being labelled an error. I understand your reasoning that, if the printer didn't intentend to have the card come out a certain way, that the card should be called an error (deviation from intented course). I also understand how the money flows in the hobby.

So, proceed with my blessings.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P.

May the Source be with you.

By the way, thank you and all the posters that posted their favorite pictures on the Picture thread.

Your Joe Cronin Big League card gave me a flashback of getting to see him play in the twilight of his game.
It must have been 1944 or '45?

My compliments to the posters.
Great shot of some great cards.
Glen V had a shot of some interesting backs.
I wonder who was the player on the Mono card?
Does anyone know?

Great Site.
Joe P.