overrated and underrated

[Touch'EmAll]

Lets hear some over/under rated opinions.

Over rated: Clemente, Emmit Smith, Namath

Under rated: Lou Brock, Ralph Kiner, Dennis Rodman, Musial

[barrysloate]

How can Clemente be overrated? He did everything well, and was a complete ballplayer.

[Touch'EmAll]

Perhaps I should have put over/under rated per their card prices into the mix - that was my original thinking.

Lets see, Clemente's card prices are nearly the same as Aaron's and May's card prices.

Clemente was once 1st in MVP voting, once was 3rd - thats it for top finishes in that category. His slugging percentage was in the top 10 for his NL (not including AL players) 6 times for his entire career (never in top couple) - compare that to Aaron/Mays. His best finishes in Runs Scored was 4th, 4th, and 9th - thats it for top finishes in that category (again NL only). And in HR's he finished 10th twice - his best finishes in that category.

Helluva fielder he was, give him credit there. And Batting average was his claim to fame - where does his lifetime B.Avg rank amongst the games greats? Not as high as you think. Just in Modern times, I think both Carew and Gwynn have more 1st's in seasons leading league in B.A.

[39special]

Over rated C.Ripken

Under rated Vada Pinson,Tony Oliva

[novakjr]

Overrated:Ozzie Smith
Underrated:Omar Vizquel

Both are easily the best defensive players at the SS position of their generations.. And their bats were very similar...The main difference being that in Omar's generation, offense took priority over defense and the SS position became flooded with 3rd Basemen(partially due to the amount of focus put on strikeout pitchers).. Luckily, I think we're starting to see the defensive SS's make a comeback, now that sinker/groundball pitchers are becoming a hot commodity... This will probably lead to less defensive focus on CF's, and we'll start to see a lot more power from that position..

[alanu]

Ouch, my 2 favorite players, Clemente & Ripken have already been mentioned as overrated.

Overrated: Pippen (not the Lord of the Rings character)

Underrated: Eddie Murray, Frank Robinson, Billy Williams

[HRBAKER]

I think that Frank Robinson may be the all-time underrated player.

[4k6]

In relation to card prices, most overrated = Mantle

I just don't get why his cards sell for several times more than a comparable (for instance) Aaron or Mays.

[matty6]

Emmitt Smith? Wow.

I still remember him seperating his shoulder and refusing to come out of the game. He played the whole game versus the Giants, the number one defense in the league, and totaled 168 yards rushing and ten catches. And this wasn't any regular season game. It was for the NFC East Championship.

"We see him walk off the field holding his arm, and we think he is hurt," Giant linebacker Michael Brooks said. "But he still ran through us."

Yes. Emmitt had the best offensive line in the league. Yes. Emmitt probably reaped the benefits of having Novacek, Irving and Harper as receivers, but the SOB was as tough as they come.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I think that Frank Robinson may be the all-time underrated player.

I agree with Jeff here, but from the deadball era

under rated: Cravath, Donlin, Ruelbach

Over rated: tinker, evers, chance

[Touch'EmAll]

Yes, with relation to card prices, Mantle is over rated.

And also, yes, Frank Robinson is underrated - look at the stats, just a teeny tiny smidgen behind Aaron/Mays, yet his card prices seem too low. Try to find a really nice 1962 topps F.Roby or even a nice centered 1969 F. Roby - tough.

Good points about O. Vizquel - great shortstop.

[Chris Counts]

Overrated: Clemente, Mantle, Tinkers, Evers, Chance and half the players in the Hall of Fame who were teammates of Frankie Frisch.
Underrated: Minnie Minoso, Stan Musial, Frank Robinson, Arky Vaughan and the teammates of Tinkers, Evers & Chance.

[matty6]

Just wondering why Cal Ripken is overrated?

[39special]

Originally Posted by matty6

Just wondering why Cal Ripken is overrated?

He averaged 159 hits,21 HRs,84 RBI,82 runs scored,.276 avg for his career over 20 years.Also the streak was incredible,but there were games he should
have not played due to bad slumps.I think toward the end of his streak,he was thinking more of himself,then his team.I think he should be in the HOF,but I think he is overrated.JMO.

[alanu]

Originally Posted by 39special

He averaged 159 hits,21 HRs,84 RBI,82 runs scored,.276 avg for his career over 20 years.Also the streak was incredible,but there were games he should
have not played due to bad slumps.I think toward the end of his streak,he was thinking more of himself,then his team.I think he should be in the HOF,but I think he is overrated.JMO.

In Cal's defense, those numbers are only behind Banks for a modern day player who played most of their career as a shortstop and the Orioles were so bad for most of the end of his career, they didn't have any options better than even a subpar Ripken.

The streak also helped bring baseball back after the strike and in retrospect the McGwire-Sosa home run race that also helped bring baseball back was really just a hoax... not sure how that last part defends Cal though.

[matty6]

I'm a Marland boy and was fortunate enough to see Ripken come up as a rookie and retire an Oriole. I've heard all the arguments against Ripken and though he doesn't have the gaudy stats: .300+ avg, 500 hr, etc, Ripken's greatness goes unseen by the casual observer. He did win two MVPs and very easily could have won it in 84. In his MVP years he was easily the best player in his league.

Between 1988-1993, Ripken's teams were horrible. He had zero protection and pitchers simply gave him nothing to hit. He was forced to swing at crap because he WAS the offense, giving him not many chances to square up the baseball.

The Streak, as panned as it was by critics, is a testament to his willingness to show up for work every day. During those years, he was not only the offense but another coach on the field. Ripken was legendary for his placement on hitters, knowing every hitters' tendencies. He also called the pitches from SS, relaying them to the young and less knowledgeable Mickey Tettleton or Chris Hoiles.

As far as Ripken taking a day off, this Oriole fan would much rather have a nicked up Ripken there rather than a Manny Alexander or Juan Bonilla. His positioning on cut offs and relays were not only impeccable but also made an impression on Alan Trammel who told a story once about how Ripken positioned himself differently in relays than anyone else. After Trammel noticed during infield warmups at an all-star weekend he questioned Ripken about. Ripken went on to give him a ten minute explanation as to why he did it that way. Trammel went on to use what he learned from Cal from that day til the day he retired.

Bill James had weekend tickets to the Orioles and Royals once. He decided to to focus on Ripken the whole weekend, BP, pre-game, and between innings. James writes that during that whole weekend he never saw Ripken make a bad throw. Every throw was square in the chest of the target. Not in the face, not below the belt, not right or left. Square in the chest. It must have been 2000 throws or so. But that was Cal. This is what we Os fans were used to.

One year he made only 3 errors I think it was a .996 pct. Teammates rave about his work ethic and how amazing he was as a teammate. Ripken never sat NOT because of selfishness but because coming to work every day was the way only he knew. I never recalled any teammates complaining about Ripken being in the line up either.

Teammates also recall his uncanny ability to heal. Brady Anderson remembers Rip getting drilled with a 90 plus fastball on the arm in the first inning of a game. By the eighth inning the welt and bruise were gone. True story.

Ripken's legend goes far above his above average stats. His greatness and legend are fed by the things a casual onlooker doesn't see - his fielding, his leadership, his loyalty, his knowledge and his toughness.

Though his stats are underwhelming, as a complete baseball player, we will be hard-pressed to see another Cal.

[drumback]

I completely disagree about Evers. If you read the Bill James Historical Abstract, he makes a strong case that Evers, believe it or not, was one of the best runs creators of the deadball era. Hall of Fame, Tinker and Chance, definitely not. Evers? Absolutely yes.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by matty6

I'm a Marland boy and was fortunate enough to see Ripken come up as a rookie and retire an Oriole. I've heard all the arguments against Ripken and though he doesn't have the gaudy stats: .300+ avg, 500 hr, etc, Ripken's greatness goes unseen by the casual observer. He did win two MVPs and very easily could have won it in 84. In his MVP years he was easily the best player in his league.

Between 1988-1993, Ripken's teams were horrible. He had zero protection and pitchers simply gave him nothing to hit. He was forced to swing at crap because he WAS the offense, giving him not many chances to square up the baseball.

The Streak, as panned as it was by critics, is a testament to his willingness to show up for work every day. During those years, he was not only the offense but another coach on the field. Ripken was legendary for his placement on hitters, knowing every hitters' tendencies. He also called the pitches from SS, relaying them to the young and less knowledgeable Mickey Tettleton or Chris Hoiles.

As far as Ripken taking a day off, this Oriole fan would much rather have a nicked up Ripken there rather than a Manny Alexander or Juan Bonilla. His positioning on cut offs and relays were not only impeccable but also made an impression on Alan Trammel who told a story once about how Ripken positioned himself differently in relays than anyone else. After Trammel noticed during infield warmups at an all-star weekend he questioned Ripken about. Ripken went on to give him a ten minute explanation as to why he did it that way. Trammel went on to use what he learned from Cal from that day til the day he retired.

Bill James had weekend tickets to the Orioles and Royals once. He decided to to focus on Ripken the whole weekend, BP, pre-game, and between innings. James writes that during that whole weekend he never saw Ripken make a bad throw. Every throw was square in the chest of the target. Not in the face, not below the belt, not right or left. Square in the chest. It must have been 2000 throws or so. But that was Cal. This is what we Os fans were used to.

One year he made only 3 errors I think it was a .996 pct. Teammates rave about his work ethic and how amazing he was as a teammate. Ripken never sat NOT because of selfishness but because coming to work every day was the way only he knew. I never recalled any teammates complaining about Ripken being in the line up either.

Teammates also recall his uncanny ability to heal. Brady Anderson remembers Rip getting drilled with a 90 plus fastball on the arm in the first inning of a game. By the eighth inning the welt and bruise were gone. True story.

Ripken's legend goes far above his above average stats. His greatness and legend are fed by the things a casual onlooker doesn't see - his fielding, his leadership, his loyalty, his knowledge and his toughness.

Though his stats are underwhelming, as a complete baseball player, we will be hard-pressed to see another Cal.

+1! Additionally, based ONLY on offense, Ripken is one of only EIGHT players in history with 3000+ hits and 400+ home runs.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

+1! Additionally, based ONLY on offense, Ripken is one of only EIGHT players in history with 3000+ hits and 400+ home runs.

He also made almost 9,000 outs.

[BigRedOne]

Overrated: Barry Sanders

Underrated: Emmitt Smith

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by BigRedOne

Overrated: Barry Sanders

Underrated: Emmitt Smith

Barry Sanders?

In a 10 year career he was the NFL rushing champion 4 times. He could have topped Walter Payton's all time rushing record prior to Emmitt Smith had he not lost his competitive drive. At the same time he was hampered by playing on all those pathetic, occasionally marginal, Lions teams. I give him all the credit in the world for walking away from the game on his terms.

[BearBailey]

I am going based upon card values being over priced and under valued and Not whether or not I feel the player is actually under or over rated, as I feel they are 2 very different issues/arguements.

Over priced: Nolan Ryan, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter, Sandy Koufax

Under valued: Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt. Robin Yount, Jim Palmer

[Runscott]

Nice...opportunity for controversy

Overrated: Ichiro, Reggie Jackson (of course, he was doing most of the rating, so not sure that counts)

Underrated: Hank Aaron - like Jackson, trumpeted his own accomplishments, but I think while he was/is obnoxious, he deserves to be up on the same tier with Mays, Mantle, and Williams. Don Mattingly.

[Touch'EmAll]

Juan Marichal - I gave a close look at his stats yesterday - wow. Had a stretch from 1963-1969 that was outright wicked. An insane SO/BB ratio - like 200+ K's and only 40 walks. Awesome win % with most seasons well over 20 wins. ERA low low 2.'s every season. All star every single year of that stretch (plus a few more). Many, many complete games. Wonderful Shutout totals. No injury problems. Great WHIP's. Was in a lot of posts season games, great stats there also. What more could you want from a pitcher? And his baseball card prices underrated as well.

Poor Marichal - held strong against the likes of Koufax and Gibson who both seemed to have more "public appeal".

Marichal was OUTSTANDING.

[BigRedOne]

Originally Posted by seablaster

Barry Sanders?

In a 10 year career he was the NFL rushing champion 4 times. He could have topped Walter Payton's all time rushing record prior to Emmitt Smith had he not lost his competitive drive. At the same time he was hampered by playing on all those pathetic, occasionally marginal, Lions teams. I give him all the credit in the world for walking away from the game on his terms.

While Barry made some of the most spectacular runs in you'll ever see.
He often lost yards at key points in games trying break those big runs, thus the ALL-TIME leader in yards lost from Scrimage.

The Barry Sanders crowd always like to sight the bad teams he played for, that is a cop out. Barry's Lions made the playoffs 5 Times and won the Division twice. Sanders was a none factor in ALL of those playoffs appearences and scored only once in all 6 games they played in.

Yes its true that Emmitt Smith is not going to be as successful with out that O-Line. And the same is true of Sanders. He doesn't win 4 rushing Titles without some help up front. Granted it wasn't that Cowboys Line, but he had a quality line.

The Bottom Line is Barry just didn't have the power to run inside and Move the Chains at key points in the game and was often out of the game on third and short/Goal. 7-8 men in the box and he was easily made a non-factor by playoff defense's which made the Lions a one dementional.

I love all those Spectacular runs he made! But as you stated, he didn't have the competitive drive or the ablity to ever carry a team to a Chamionship.

I know many will disagree, as Barry is well regarded by many, and rightfully so.

But IMHO I do believe he is one of the more overrated backs. Fun to Watch, but I can name a dozen backs I would rather have in crunch time Playoff games than Barry.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

lets hear some over/under rated opinions.

Over rated: Clemente, emmit smith, namath

under rated: Lou brock, ralph kiner, dennis rodman, musial

i have to completely disagree with your choice of clemente, this guy could do it all. As a kid, i saw him throw out ralph garr at the plate at atlanta fulton county stadium. He caught a fly ball hit by darrell evans on the warning track, and threw a bullet to the plate without the ball even hitting the ground! Garr at the time was probably the fastest man in the national league....