|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Darren J. Duet
Previous surveys have prompted me to do some intense studying of the early game -- I haven't done this much reading on baseball since I was a kid. By the way, Thank you everyone for this board -- I feel welcome here and have enjoyed reading your stories, responding to your questions, and assisting some of you with your collecting. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: John/z28jd
Rube Marquard with his 201-177 record pitching for 5 teams that made the world series,and his 2-5 w.s. record to go along with it |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: dennis
pennock was voted in by the writers, who if you look at the record of their picks do a really,really good job of only voting real great players in. so maybe he had great stuff.(i never saw him). waite i think got in because he broadcast reds(?) games for over 30 years after he retired and was a good story-teller. i'd pick rube marquard 201-177 record.voted in by veterens comitee in early 1970's when a lot of good players of that era went in this way. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: T206Collector
Led the League in losses in 1906 with 21 and holds the career record with most losses, 316. I don't want to hear what kind of terrible team he pitched for, look no further than the great Walter Johnson who pitched superbly on pathetic teams. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Rob L
I was thinking Cy Young also which is completely hypocritical after I chose him as the third best. But when this survey question came up, he was the first one that popped up in my mind. I guess the number of wins makes him great, but the number of losses makes him my choice for this survey. I am so CONFUSED!!!! |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: jay behrens
Sandy Koufax. A dud at the begining of his career and benefited from a pitcher friendly park when he became "great". |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: T206Collector
...I just want to say that I've never liked Nolan Ryan. I think he's the most overrated pitcher in the history of the game. I don't care how many strikeouts and no-hitters he's thrown. He was mediocre at everything else. And his won-loss record is basically .500 (324-292). By the way, 292 losses is third all-time. And his 277 wild pitches is more than anyone in history. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: John/z28jd
Not to totally change this thread but i agree with Jay for any era pitchers its Koufax and with Nolan Ryan,not only does he rank up there in losses,first in wild pitches,hes top 10 in hit batters and he leads in career walks allowed by just under 1000 over 2nd place. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: jay behrens
Ryan might be overrated, but you can't tell me you pay to see him pitch. He's the only pitcher in the history of the game that you felt had a chance to throw a no hitter every time he stepped on the mound.Sometimes, there is more to being a HOFer than numbers. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: dennis
A chance for a no hitter everytime he took the mound can be said for bob feller(early career)& sandy koufax. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: jay behrens
dennis, that's only true of the final 5 years of Koufax's career. He was a bum before then. Ryan's no-hitters spaned his career. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Sean Coe
I think its Marquard and by a fairly wide margin. I've heard it said that the publicity from "The Glory of Their Times" helped him get in. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: dennis
both ryan and koufax reached star status at the age of 25 ... |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: steve k
I was looking forward to this thread when I opened it and instead it gets hijacked by the same old Sandy Koufax and Nolan Ryan bashers. Why don’t you start a new thread instead of hijacking what could have been a very interesting thread. It’s the same old diatribes. What the he** else do you want a pitcher to do that Koufax and Ryan didn’t do? Well go ahead…here’s your chance. I’ll repeat the question. What the he** else would you want a pitcher to do that they didn’t do? Let’s see if you can answer this question in an intelligent way without distorting or twisting the facts. These guys were dominant, threw no hitters, received Cy Youngs, won pennants, hold records, etc., etc., etc. I already know what you’re probably going to do. You are going to nitpick their records to death. You’ll say, "Ohhh, but Sandy didn’t have many lifetime wins and Nolan didn’t have a great lifetime win percentage." When are you going to learn that you shouldn’t compare lifetime stats of pitchers in the same way as hitters, as far as determining greatness. These guys were great pitchers and your personal vendettas against them isn’t going to change that. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: T206Collector
Never got a Cy Young award. And other than in a game in relief during the 1969 Series, never won a championship. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Jason
Cy Young is a pretty damn good pitcher in my books, but I also think he is one of the most overated. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Pcelli60
With the way we glorify so many of the 19th and early 20th century pitchers its hard to see them as overrated..But if I must; Willis and Marquard and ONLY because they are HOF'ers.. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: T206Collector
Can't be overrated -- nobody knows who he is outside of this chat board. He may be the least deserving of a Hall of Fame nod -- clearly Ryan deserves it well over Marquard. But nobody's ever heard of the guy, let alone idolized him... |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Pcelli60
I love McGraw's Giants, ALL of them. I mentioned Marquard only for arguments sake..But he pitched for 18 years, well past his prime. Won twenty plus games 3 times, and had a winning pct. of only .532. That great winning streak he had and his affiliation with those wonderful Giant teams really helped put him over the top..Larry Ritter certainly didnt hurt... |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Pcelli60
Hey, I just remembered Ted Lyons.. |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Jay Miller
Lifetime stats are one measure of greatness but unless there is consistent performance throughout the player's career I think they are very misleading. Granted, it took Koufax a while to hone his pitching skills, but once he did for a solid five years he was as great as anyone ever. If not for physical problems he probably could have kept this up for a while. Lifetime stats are why people think of Aaron as a great HR hitter when he never hit 50 HRs in a season. Lifetime stats are why Yaz is in the HOF when for the second half of his career he was nothing special. And Jay don't forget your guy Kirby Puckett when you are talking about marginal to shouldn't be there at all HOFers. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Kevin Cummings
This might surprise some people, but I think Chief Bender and Rube Waddell are not as good as they are cracked up to be. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Julie
being overrated (even if he lost over 300), you sorta feel like you maybe should have seen him pitch before you say it. I'd tend to go with Young as most overrated, because many think him the best of all time. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: tbob
The best pitcher in baseball in the 60's and the best hitter in baseball in the 60's. One is in the HOF, the other is not. Both were forced to end their careers early because of disabling injuries. If Koufax is that great, Tony O. should be a no brainer in the HOF. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Jason
When it comes to pitching the only thing that the pitcher controls is strikeouts and walks. Hits and outs in play are fluke as you begin to rely on your defense. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: PeterP
Cy Young won 511 games and was consistently great across the pre-modern and modern eras. Were his numbers beefed up a bit by the way the game was played at the time? Sure. But why is he the only man with 500 wins, and one of only two with 400 wins? Surely there would be several others with numbers close to his. But there really aren't any. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I really have to take strong objection to the claim that Koufax is an overrated pitcher -- let alone the most overrated great pitcher of all time. Yeah, he only had a handful of great years but his career was cut short by injury due to the ridiculous number of innings he pitched despite arm trouble (323 innings one year when his arm was falling off). Using that as a criticism is like saying that Gale Sayers was no good because he didn't rush for 10,000 yards. What a joke. Why don't you look at his lifetime World Series record? Started 7 WS games, had an ERA under 1 and averaged 8 innings per start. And in 1965 he threw a complete game 4 hit shutout and on two days rest threw another shutout, this one a 3 hitter. Are you kidding me? Do you think Roger Clemens could throw 2 shutouts in 4 days in the World Series? Please. Don't compare him to a physical marval like Nolan Ryan who's career was mostly mediocre. Other than the no hitters and strikeouts, did he ever win? Did he ever win the big games? Finally, Koufax's lifetime ERA was .87 a run less than the league's average. Steve Carlton's was .48 lower; Ryan's was .38 lower. Walter Johnson was exactly 1 run lower, pretty close to the most "overrated" pitcher, Koufax. In the end, can you think of a pitcher you'd rather have pitch Game 7 of a World Series for you? No, you can't. Case closed. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: PeterP
Well, as it regards Oliva, the one difference I see between him and Koufax is that Koufax absolutely dominated the National League for the last 4 years of his career, along with two great seasons the two previous seasons. Oliva had some great numbers but didn't dominate. Also, consider that there were many more great hitting outfielders when Oliva played than pitchers when Koufax played, so Oliva gets lost in the shuffle a little. |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: John/z28jd
Jeff there are plenty of pitchers who were very good whos careers were cut short but when i hear stories of how great a pitcher Koufax was and then i see his stats it was one of the most disappointing sights ever as far as stats go.He had a great run but like i said |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Elliot
John, reading all those stats has clouded your brain. The dominance of Koufax goes way beyond any stats that you can read. Other pitchers might get dominant like the way he was for 1/2 a season, he was dominant for 5 years. His short career just didn't allow his lifetime totals to look good. |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
John, comparing Koufax to Paciorek is a bit of a hyperbole, no? Gale Sayers had two thousand yard seasons and less than 5000 yards in his career. If you just go by numbers, then I suppose Rodney Hampton was a better runner than Sayers. The bottom line is that Koufax was misused badly in his early career and when he finally hit his groove, he was the most unhittable pitcher of his era. For five years. And how many Cy Young Awards did he win? Three, when there was only one award given. And he also won a pitcher's Triple Crown three times. Those accomplishments alone, forgetting his postseason prowess (2 WS MVPs), make it impossible to suggest that he was overrated. Find me another pitcher that has three Triple Crowns. And he did it in four years. The fact that his career was so short is what bugs you and like many stat junkies you look at numbers in total as a measure of greatness. If Barry Bonds was hit by a truck after hitting 754 you'd say that Aaron was a better homerun hitter. By the way, Tom Seaver never won a pitching Triple Crown and Clemens has two, Carlton one. And none of these pitchers are even mentioned in the same breath as Koufax when it comes to his postseason success. Yes, Koufax's lifetime numbers pale in comparison to some of the great pitchers. But if you ask 100 baseball historians who was the better pitcher, Koufax or Ryan, 99 (you excluded) would say Sandy was. |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: steve k
Good solid defenses have been made here about Koufax. As if he really should have needed any. And I don't even like the Dodgers. But that doesn't cloud my judgment about Koufax being a great pitcher. In defense of Ryan - he pitched for a lot of teams that couldn't hit their way out of a paper bag. If he pitched for a team that could hit a little bit, his lifetime wins and win percentage would definitely be higher. |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Needles and Threads
Lets see, did Ryan pitch before 1930? Wait, was he born before 1930? What about Koufax? OK, enough stone busting. I'd take Ryan or Koufax any day over a Don Sutton. Don Sutton wasn't a slouch either. Oh yeah, he was probably born after 1930 also. |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: jay behrens
Jeff, nice of you to conviently forget about Koufax's first 7 years. During that run he hed a losing record and never had a winning season. Gale SAyers is a bad comparison because Sayers was great right out of the gate. As I said and John also pointed out, you flip Koufax's career around and you get Dwight Gooden. Do also think Good belongs in the HOF? You should since they have remarkabley similar careers, only one was great at the beginging of his career and faded out, while the other got the benifit (if you can an injury that) of going out on the top of his game. At the peak of his career, no doubt, Koufax was possibly the greatest. But to be considered an all-time great, you need to do it for your WHOLE career, not for just 5 years. |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Pcelli60
Frequently players, and great players at that, start or certainly end their careers with less than great statistical accumulation..But if you have 5 or 6 dominating years in say a 12 year career, why cant you be a potential HOFer? |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: dennis
Jays last paragraph is correct.i'd take a lot of pitchers over koufax for career value,but very, few if any, for 1 season,or 1 game. |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Elliot
Gooden had one incredible season.....the only season where he won 20 games. That's right one 20 win season. His lifetime ERA was only .36 below the league average as compared to Koufax's .87. Koufax had 4 (effectively) so so years and then 6 sublime years, with 3 Triple Crowns and 3 Cy Young Awards (when only one was given out). How can you make the comparison?? |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Chris
Before we completely bash Koufax's first 5 or 7 years, let's look at how old he was when he came up with the Dodgers in 1955. Only 19 years old. Most pitchers do not pull it all together until they are at least 23, heck quite a few are not even in the majors until they are 23. Koufax's first 3 years he was only used as a spot starter as the Dodgers had a pretty impressive pitching staff already and did not really need a huge contribution from a 19 or 20 year old kid still learning how to pitch. If you look at all his stats you will see like most young pitchers he struggled with his control early on but later was much better in that area. I will also say that it is not always just about the stats. Koufax was a winner and nobody in baseball liked to hit against him in the 60's. That to me says something. You have to realize, Koufax's reputation was noy built on a long productive career like Nolan Ryan but built on his ability to pitch and how dominant he was in the prime of his career in the 60's. I just don't think an argument based on his first 5 years in the league when he was very very young is a very good argument. IMO he does not belong on an overrated team. Yes he only had 6 great years and yes his career was cut short by injury but I think he was one of the best ever. My vote goes to Marquard. |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Chris
One more point about Koufax, with all due respect John you only talk about his stats but you never saw him pitch. I have collected autographs thru the mail for a number of years and often ask the question of players who the best pitcher they ever saw was and Koufax's name comes up as often as any. This coming from people who not only actually saw him play but actually stepped into the batters box against him. To me, that speaks volumes. |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Jay Miller
I have seen baseball games since the 1950s and there are only five pitchers that for any period of time that I thought were unbeatable--Gibson, Pedro, Clemens, Randy Johnson and Koufax. Of those I think Koufax, for his all too brief period, was the best. During that time he was the best pitcher I have ever seen. |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Todd
I can't see him as overrated, much less as one of the most overrated. |
#42
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Julie
|
#43
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Julie
|
#44
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: runscott
It seems like the best way to judge how great a pitcher was, is by talking with his contemporaries - people who actually saw him perform. All we have is stats and history books to go by. |
#45
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
I can not think of Kofax as the most "anything" since he did not have sufficient good years to qualify. Or maybe he did, but where do you draw the line? Herb Score was unbelievable, as was Ryne Duren during that period - but only for a little while. Heck, for a much shorter interval, Vander Meer was actually unhittable. Is two games enough? How about Drysdale or Herschiser's scoreless inning strings? |
#46
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: runscott
I can't agree with that - by those standards Niekro, Sutton and Gaylord Perry were shue-ins. It's just a matter of opinion of course, but I think players who were truly great for even 4-5 years should get in. Sandy Koufax is truly one of the greatest pitchers ever to step on a diamond. These other guys are not - they were above average both in ability, and in stamina, but that's not "great". Of course, the HOF isn't about greatness any more. There seem to be three kinds of players who get in: |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Cy
This is a great thread. Even though much has been re-hashed. It is always fun to speculate on the best and worst of all-time. I have three pitchers I want to comment on. Two are similar in a way. Koufax is under-rated, whereas Whitey Ford is over-rated. And here is why. |
#48
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Albie O'Hanian
I agree with Jay about the unbeatable pitchers. |
#49
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Paul
I agree Whitey Ford's .690 win percentage was due in part to the team he had behind him. But he did have one of the best ERA's in the live ball era. |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)
Posted By: Kenny Cole
Jay, |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Ebay sorting pre 1930 - too much junk | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 15 | 03-25-2008 05:47 PM |
Keep your kids away from the pre 1930 category right now | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 37 | 12-12-2007 12:48 PM |
What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ? | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 31 | 09-24-2007 09:57 PM |
Hundreds of pre-1930 cards on Ebay | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 65 | 05-05-2007 11:57 AM |
Survey: Who is the most underrated deadball era pitcher? | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 41 | 10-04-2004 12:31 PM |