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  #1  
Old 04-16-2007, 06:20 PM
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Default Memory Lane Redux?

Posted By: Paul Moss

In order to keep up with the market and current pricing, I find it necessary to note examples of single cards that appear in the major auction houses primarily on the sets that I deal with on a consistant basis. It has proven to be worthwhile in spotting trends, or increased interest on a specific set that could be beneficial to my small, but humble business. Although I call into question many of the so called "record prices" attained in a non-public, non-open forum each and every sale, I still enter them into the book. Perhaps they do indeed obtain these staggering numbers time after time and those of us peasants that struggle in the trenches daily on ebay are somehow not worthy of these heavy hitters fighting over our miserable offerings.

Yet I just completed a very interesting examination from the updating of my files.
Below are the results of 70 different lots from the Dec 06 and
April 07 Memory Lane auctions. These examples represent 70 cards that appeared in both auctions in the same grade by the same grading company. The further that I looked into this comparison, the higher my eyebrows were raised when cards with pops of 3 and 4 show up in consecutive auctions. Just what are the odds that a company would have 2 for sale of this limited population availability within such a short period of time?
Regardless,it is interesting to note that the certification numbers on the holders do not seem the same on any of these cards from auction to auction, however in a few cases these cards appear to be the same in the April 07 as in the Dec 06 auction, presumably having undergone some redressing by having been submitted for a new cert.

Almost every 34 Goudey card in the April 07 auction was offered in the same grade in the Dec 06 offering. In auctions of over 900 and 1100 lots respectively, it might not be unusual to have this many cards in the same grade running in each, but it is the composition of these cards that raises my curiosity and inquisitive nature to wonder as to what has transpired. These are not exactly run of the mill cards given their condition and existing population, yet it is somewhat perplexing to see them in the same auction house a few months later. Now I realize that there are always a few cards that remain unpaid for in an auction, but this many? ........and frankly, why the cert number change on those that appear to have been rerun? I was not aware of the option for PSA to actually do this for customers, in fact, I thought that this was one thing that they had always refused to do. It does not make sense to have broken them out and resubmitted. Just what are the odds that they would have all come back at the same grade? Does anyone have any answers or theories, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

My primary purpose in doing this was to see whether the adverse publicity with the disclosure on this very board of J. Cohen's past had an effect on Memory Lane's results more as an exercise to see if such revelations had in fact altered the bottom line.

The results of the Dec 06 auction are always presented first in comparing the auctions. Prices include the buyer's premium, which is identical for both auctions.

136 1911 M116 Sporting Life Red Killifer PSA 8 NM-MT $1,104.50
2 Link to auction.
3 1100 1911 M116 Sporting Life Red Killifer(Killefer) PSA 8 NM-MT $608.65
4 Link to auction.
5
6 170 1912 T202 Hassan Tpl. Folder F.Clarke/R.Byrne Collins Easily Safe PSA 6 EX-MT $669.75
7 Link to auction.
8 94 1912 T202 Hassan Tpl. Folder F.Clarke/R.Byrne Collins Easily Safe PSA 6 EX-MT $415.95
9 Link to auction.
10
11 173 1912 T202 Hassan Tpl. Folder R. Bresnahan/ R. Oakes Catching Him Napping PSA 6 EX-MT $981.13
12 Link to auction.
13 95 1912 T202 Hassan Tpl. Folder R.Bresnahan/R.Oakes Catching Him Napping PSA 6 EX-MT $415.95
14 Link to auction.
15
16 166 1912 T202 Hassan Tpl. Folder F. LaPorte/ R. Wallace A Close Play at Home PSA 6 EX-MT $553.43
17 Link to auction.
18 96 1912 T202 Hassan Tpl. Folder F.LaPorte/R.Wallace A Close Play At Home PSA 6 EX-MT $284.35
19 Link to auction.
20
21 241 1934 Goudey #14 Willie Kamm PSA 7 NM $713.23
22 Link to auction.
23 133 1934 Goudey #14 Willie Kamm PSA 7 NM $366.60
24 Link to auction.
25
26 229 1934 Goudey #19 Lefty Grove PSA 8 NM-MT $5,030.18
27 Link to auction.
28 134 1934 Goudey #19 Lefty Grove PSA 8 NM-MT $3,123.15
29 Link to auction.
30
31 222 1934 Goudey #2 Mickey Cochrane PSA 7 NM $1,616.80
32 Link to auction.
33 130 1934 Goudey #2 Mickey Cochrane PSA 7 NM $1,435.85
34 Link to auction.
35
36 227 1934 Goudey #12 Carl Hubbell PSA 8 NM-MT $2,134.98
37 Link to auction.
38 132 1934 Goudey #12 Carl Hubbell PSA 8 NM-MT $2,516.85
39 Link to auction.
40
41 243 1934 Goudey #22 Floyd Vaughan PSA 8 NM-MT $1,261.95
42 Link to auction.
43 135 1934 Goudey #22 Floyd Vaughan PSA 8 NM-MT $1,104.50
44 Link to auction.
45
46 245 1934 Goudey #30 Julius Solters PSA 8 NM-MT $1,469.93
47 Link to auction.
48 136 1934 Goudey #30 Julius Solters PSA 8 NM-MT $623.93
49 Link to auction.
50
51 246 1934 Goudey #31 Baxter Jordan PSA 8 NM-MT $829.55
52 Link to auction.
53 137 1934 Goudey #31 Baxter Jordan PSA 8 NM-MT $515.83
54 Link to auction.
55
56 247 1934 Goudey #36 Huck Betts PSA 8 NM-MT $912.98
57 Link to auction.
58 138 1934 Goudey #36 Huck Betts PSA 8 NM-MT $567.53
59 Link to auction.
60
61 249 1934 Goudey #39 Fred Walker PSA 8 NM-MT $686.20
62 Link to auction.
63 139 1934 Goudey #39 Fred Walker PSA 8 NM-MT $515.83
64 Link to auction.
65
66 252 1934 Goudey #43 Dick Porter PSA 8 NM-MT $1,616.80
67 Link to auction.
68 140 1934 Goudey #43 Dick Porter PSA 8 NM-MT $1,104.50
69 Link to auction.
70
71 257 1934 Goudey #55 Ed Holley PSA 8 NM-MT $1,104.50
72 Link to auction.
73 142 1934 Goudey #55 Ed Holley PSA 8 NM-MT $517.00
74 Link to auction.
75
76 30 1934 Goudey #61 Lou Gehrig PSA 8 NM-MT $8,601.00
77 Link to auction.
78 18 1934 Goudey #61 Lou Gehrig PSA 8 NM-MT $11,157.80
79 Link to auction.
80
81 236 1934 Goudey #62 Hank Greenberg PSA 8 NM-MT $5,541.30
82 Link to auction.
83 143 1934 Goudey #62 Hank Greenberg PSA 8 NM-MT $4,573.10
84 Link to auction.
85
86 260 1934 Goudey #63 Minter Hayes PSA 8 NM-MT $829.55
87 Link to auction.
88 144 1934 Goudey #63 Minter Hayes PSA 8 NM-MT $623.93
89 Link to auction.
90
91 261 1934 Goudey #65 Cliff Bolton PSA 8 NM-MT $686.20
92 Link to auction.
93 145 1934 Goudey #65 Cliff Bolton PSA 8 NM-MT $515.83
94 Link to auction.
95
96 262 1934 Goudey #66 Mel Harder PSA 8 NM-MT $912.98
97 Link to auction.
98 146 1934 Goudey #66 Mel Harder PSA 8 NM-MT $1,004.63
99 Link to auction.
100
101 266 1934 Goudey #71 Lyle Tinning PSA 8 NM-MT $1,214.95
102 Link to auction.
103 147 1934 Goudey #71 Lyle Tinning PSA 8 NM-MT $468.83
104 Link to auction.
105
106 272 1934 Goudey #80 Marty McManus PSA 8 NM-MT $831.90
107 Link to auction.
108 148 1934 Goudey #80 Marty McManus PSA 8 NM-MT $1,621.50
109 Link to auction.
110
111 276 1934 Goudey #85 Adam Comorosky PSA 8 NM-MT $915.33
112 Link to auction.
113 149 1934 Goudey #85 Adam Comorosky PSA 8 NM-MT $756.70
114 Link to auction.
115
116 277 1934 Goudey #86 Lloyd Johnson PSA 8 NM-MT $1,218.48
117 Link to auction.
118 150 1934 Goudey #86 Lloyd Johnson PSA 8 NM-MT $625.10
119 Link to auction.
120
121 279 1934 Goudey #88 Homer Peel PSA 8 NM-MT $915.33
122 Link to auction.
123 151 1934 Goudey #88 Homer Peel PSA 8 NM-MT $915.33
124 Link to auction.
125
126 280 1934 Goudey #89 Linus Frey PSA 8 NM-MT $1,006.98
127 Link to auction.
128 152 1934 Goudey #89 Linus Frey PSA 8 NM-MT $687.38
129 Link to auction.
130
131 240 1934 Goudey #9 Ben Chapman PSA 8 NM-MT $912.98
132 Link to auction.
133 131 1934 Goudey #9 Ben Chapman PSA 8 NM-MT $553.43
134 Link to auction.
135
136 237 1934 Goudey #90 Ki Ki Cuyler PSA 8 NM-MT $2,218.40
137 Link to auction.
138 153 1934 Goudey #90 Ki Ki Cuyler PSA 8 NM-MT $2,440.48
139 Link to auction.
140
141 281 1934 Goudey #91 Dolph Camilli PSA 8 NM-MT $1,218.48
142 Link to auction.
143 154 1934 Goudey #91 Dolph Camilli PSA 8 NM-MT $756.70
144 Link to auction.
145
146 239 1934 Goudey #96 Jim DeShong PSA 7 NM $1,004.63
147 Link to auction.
148 155 1934 Goudey #96 Jim DeShong PSA 7 NM $1,214.95
149 Link to auction.
150
151 31 1941 Play Ball #14 Ted Williams PSA 8 NM-MT $6,243.95
152 Link to auction.
153 195 1941 Play Ball #14 Ted Williams PSA 8 NM-MT $4,301.68
154 Link to auction.
155
156 302 1941 Play Ball #19 Charley Gehringer PSA 8 NM-MT $1,387.68
157 Link to auction.
158 197 1941 Play Ball #19 Charley Gehringer PSA 8 NM-MT $947.05
159 Link to auction.
160
161 743 1948 Bowman #3 Gale Bishop PSA 9 MINT $646.25
162 Link to auction.
163 711 1948 Bowman #3 Gale Bishop PSA 9 MINT $686.20
164 Link to auction.
165
166 328 1948 Leaf #27 Mickey Harris PSA 8 NM-MT $502.90
167 Link to auction.
168 206 1948 Leaf #27 Mickey Harris PSA 8 NM-MT $276.13
169 Link to auction.
170
171 336 1948 Leaf #65 Bob Elliot PSA 8 NM-MT $1,305.43
172 Link to auction.
173 220 1948 Leaf #65 Bob Elliot PSA 8 NM-MT $502.90
174 Link to auction.
175
176 447 1954 Topps #10 Jackie Robinson PSA 8 NM-MT $1,778.95
177 Link to auction.
178 407 1954 Topps #10 Jackie Robinson PSA 8 NM-MT $912.98
179 Link to auction.
180
181 458 1954 Topps #127 Steve O'Neill PSA 9 MINT $553.43
182 Link to auction.
183 420 1954 Topps #127 Steve O'Neill PSA 9 MINT $608.65
184 Link to auction.
185
186 463 1954 Topps #184 Ed Bailey PSA 9 MINT $669.75
187 Link to auction.
188 427 1954 Topps #184 Ed Bailey PSA 9 MINT $669.75
189 Link to auction.
190
191 767 1954 Topps #8 Gordie Howe PSA 8 NM-MT $2,518.03
192 Link to auction.
193 744 1954 Topps #8 Gordie Howe PSA 8 NM-MT $2,769.48
194 Link to auction.
195
196 448 1954 Topps #90 Willie Mays PSA 8 NM-MT $1,679.08
197 Link to auction.
198 416 1954 Topps #90 Willie Mays PSA 8 NM-MT $2,013.95
199 Link to auction.
200
201 494 1955 Topps #141 Tom Wright PSA 9 MINT $891.83
202 Link to auction.
203 449 1955 Topps #141 Tom Wright PSA 9 MINT $669.75
204 Link to auction.
205
206 496 1955 Topps #198 Yogi Berra PSA 8 NM-MT $1,340.68
207 Link to auction.
208 453 1955 Topps #198 Yogi Berra PSA 8 NM-MT Very High End $1,340.68
209 Link to auction.
210
211 488 1955 Topps #84 Camilo Pascual PSA 8 NM-MT $784.90
212 Link to auction.
213 446 1955 Topps #84 Camilo Pascual PSA 8 NM-MT $276.13
214 Link to auction.
215
216 489 1955 Topps #96 Charlie Bishop PSA 9 MINT $608.65
217 Link to auction.
218 447 1955 Topps #96 Charlie Bishop PSA 9 MINT $736.73
219 Link to auction.
220
221 745 1957 Kahn's Wieners Robert Wanzer (Basketball) PSA 8 NM-MT $229.13
222 Link to auction.
223 723 1957 Kahn's Wieners Robert Wanzer PSA 8 NM-MT $258.50
224 Link to auction.
225
226 582 1959 Topps #10 Mickey Mantle PSA 8 NM-MT $4,460.30
227 Link to auction.
228 559 1959 Topps #10 Mickey Mantle PSA 8 NM-MT $2,518.03
229 Link to auction.
230
231 753 1961 Fleer #38 Bill Russell PSA 8 NM-MT $686.20
232 Link to auction.
233 725 1961 Fleer #38 Bill Russell PSA 8 NM-MT $623.93
234 Link to auction.
235
236 640 1963 Topps #200 Mickey Mantle PSA 8 NM-MT $1,679.08
237 Link to auction.
238 594 1963 Topps #200 Mickey Mantle PSA 8 NM-MT $1,261.95
239 Link to auction.
240
241 639 1963 Topps #9 NL Strikeout Leaders PSA 9 MINT $1,335.98
242 Link to auction.
243 592 1963 Topps #9 NL Strikeout Leaders PSA 9 MINT $686.20
244 Link to auction.
245
246 670 1967 Topps #150 Mickey Mantle PSA 9 MINT $2,288.90
247 Link to auction.
248 632 1967 Topps #150 Mickey Mantle PSA 9 MINT $2,288.90
249 Link to auction.
250
251 705 1970 Topps #600 Willie Mays PSA 9 MINT $1,146.80
252 Link to auction.
253 661 1970 Topps #600 Willie Mays PSA 9 MINT $782.55
254 Link to auction.
255
256 732 1950 Bowman #1 Doak Walker PSA 8 NM-MT $3,685.98
257 Link to auction.
258 681 1950 Bowman #1 Doak Walker PSA 8 NM-MT $2,748.33
259 Link to auction.
260
261 142 1911 T3 Turkey Red #35 Joe Tinker Cabinets - Checklist Back PSA 4 VG-EX $1,218.48
262 Link to auction.
263 37 1911 T3 Turkey Red #35 Joe Tinker Cabinets - Checklist Back PSA 4 VG-EX $2,031.58
264 Link to auction.
265
266 420 1952 Topps #400 Bill Dickey PSA 7 NM $1,847.10
267 Link to auction.
268 341 1952 Topps #400 Bill Dickey PSA 7 NM $1,847.10
269 Link to auction.
270
271 44 1953 Bowman Color #59 Mickey Mantle PSA 9 MINT $10,055.65
272 Link to auction.
273 24 1953 Bowman Color #59 Mickey Mantle PSA 9 MINT $9,221.40
274 Link to auction.
275
276 448 1954 Topps #90 Willie Mays PSA 8 NM-MT $1,679.08
277 Link to auction.
278 416 1954 Topps #90 Willie Mays PSA 8 NM-MT $2,013.95
279 Link to auction.
280
281 55 1956 Topps #33 Roberto Clemente PSA 9 MINT $4,157.15
282 Link to auction.
283 458 1956 Topps #33 Roberto Clemente PSA 9 MINT $4,157.15
284 Link to auction.
285
286 507 1956 Topps #57 Duke Maas PSA 9 MINT $303.15
287 Link to auction.
288 460 1956 Topps #57 Duke Maas PSA 9 MINT $487.63
289 Link to auction.
290
291 641 1963 Topps #537 Rookie Stars - Rose, Gonzalez, McMullen, Weis PSA 8 NM-MT $2,218.40
292 Link to auction.
293 596 1963 Topps #537 Pete Rose Rookie Stars PSA 8 NM-MT $1,720.20
294 Link to auction.
295
296 333 1948 Leaf #59 Lucius Appling PSA 8 NM-MT $553.43
297 Link to auction.
298 216 1948 Leaf #59 Lucius Appling PSA 8 NM-MT $1,186.75
299 Link to auction.
300
301 375 1950 Bowman #19 Warren Spahn PSA 8 NM-MT $1,146.80
302 Link to auction.
303 263 1950 Bowman #19 Warren Spahn PSA 8 NM-MT $1,042.23
304 Link to auction.
305
306 377 1950 Bowman #21 Pee Wee Reese PSA 8 NM-MT $1,004.63
307 Link to auction.
308 264 1950 Bowman #21 Pee Wee Reese PSA 8 NM-MT $1,004.63
309 Link to auction.
310
311 441 1954 Bowman #10 Carl Erskine PSA 9 MINT $2,102.08
312 Link to auction.
313 399 1954 Bowman #10 Carl Erskine PSA 9 MINT $810.75
314 Link to auction.
315
316 440 1954 Johnston Cookies #21 Warren Spahn Braves PSA 9 MINT $687.38
317 Link to auction.
318 395 1954 Johnston Cookies #21 Warren Spahn Braves PSA 9 MINT $736.73
319 Link to auction.
320
321 523 1957 Topps #95 Mickey Mantle PSA 8 NM-MT $3,685.98
322 Link to auction.
323 483 1957 Topps #95 Mickey Mantle PSA 8 NM-MT $3,685.98
324 Link to auction.
325
326 575 1958 Hires Root Beer #61 Duke Snider with tab PSA 8 NM-MT $981.13
327 Link to auction.
328 544 1958 Hires Root Beer #61 Duke Snider With Tab PSA 8 NM-MT $810.75
329 Link to auction.
330
331 577 1958 Hires Root Beer #63 Gino Cimoli with Tab PSA 8 NM-MT $366.60
332 Link to auction.
333 546 1958 Hires Root Beer #63 Gino Cimoli With Tab PSA 8 NM-MT $189.18
334 Link to auction.
335
336 578 1958 Hires Root Beer #66 George Zuverink with Tab PSA 8 NM-MT $713.23
337 Link to auction.
338 548 1958 Hires Root Beer #66 George Zuverink With Tab PSA 8 NM-MT $303.15
339 Link to auction.
340
341 580 1958 Hires Root Beer #73 Al Worthington with Tab PSA 8 NM-MT $189.18
342 Link to auction.
343 554 1958 Hires Root Beer #73 Al Worthington With Tab PSA 8 NM-MT $207.98
344 Link to auction.

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  #2  
Old 04-16-2007, 06:39 PM
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Default Memory Lane Redux?

Posted By: Frank Evanov

An impressive presentation Paul. Thanks for the all the time it must have taken to uncover this. On looking at a few of the cards side by side, they are indeed the same and each has been graded and "sold" twice. Here's an obvious one:





I find this very troubling.



Frank

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  #3  
Old 04-16-2007, 06:47 PM
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Default Memory Lane Redux?

Posted By: jeffdrum

So what's the conclusion? Were they essentially not sold the first time? All were won by non-paying bidders?

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  #4  
Old 04-16-2007, 06:47 PM
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Posted By: Wesley

The most important question is whether JP sends the flips back to PSA so the population reports remain accurate.

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  #5  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:08 PM
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Default Memory Lane Redux?

Posted By: bruce Dorskind



Paul

A brillaint presentation.

The odds of all these cards being different are about the same as somone whose DNA exactly
matches the DNA found on a victim ...i.e. 13 trillion to one.

Whilst you have undertaken a great deal of work, we wonder of those cards with a populatio
of less than 5 if there was any change in the population between Dec 07 and April 07.

It would be interesting to write to Joe Orlando and see if he cared to comment on the dates
that a sampling of the same card from both auctions were originally graded, and whether
or not any of the April cards were resubmitted.

As far as we can tell, with a few notable exceptions most of the prices dropped, in some cases
by as much as 50%.

Clearly someone at Memory Lane underestimated your "memory" of their past auction.

Greart work, indeed.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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  #6  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:15 PM
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Posted By: David Vargha

Paul is indeed brilliant. Plus he's a Texan and has a funny user name to boot.



DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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  #7  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:19 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I didn't get very far on the list yet, but clearly the two 1912 T202 Hassan Tpl.Folder F.Clarke/R.Byrne Collins Easily Safe PSA 6 EX-MT are not the same cards.

Links 7 & 9 on your list.

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  #8  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:20 PM
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Posted By: jeffdrum

Tinker T3 is not the same either.

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  #9  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:23 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Certainly at first blush the ones I have looked at appear to be the same card, but with different certs. There must be a logical explanation.

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  #10  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:28 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Just picking another one at random and it does not appear to be the same card either:

256 732 1950 Bowman #1 Doak Walker PSA 8 NM-MT $3,685.98
257 Link to auction.
258 681 1950 Bowman #1 Doak Walker PSA 8 NM-MT $2,748.33
259 Link to auction.

just picked another one at random and it is definitely not the same card:

296 333 1948 Leaf #59 Lucius Appling PSA 8 NM-MT $553.43
297 Link to auction.
298 216 1948 Leaf #59 Lucius Appling PSA 8 NM-MT $1,186.75
299 Link to auction.

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  #11  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:32 PM
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Posted By: Paul Moss

"however in a few cases these cards appear to be the same"

I never said ALL. This was a price comparison with a few "bonuses" thrown in.

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  #12  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:40 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Sorry Paul....I guess by reading some of the followups I inferred that you were posting cards that seemed to be broken out and resubmitted to PSA. My apologies.

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Old 04-16-2007, 07:41 PM
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Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby

"The most important question is whether JP sends the flips back to PSA so the population reports remain accurate."

I just checked the cert verification on the PSA website of the two T202 Hassan Triple Folders shown above and both still register with the names and grades shown above. Those two look like the same card in my opinion. (I assume that when a flip is returned, it will be deleted from the database - correct?)

Is it possible that someone won the cards (including the auction house) and tried for a bumpup by resubmitting and got the same grade? But that should have increased the population by one - right?

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  #14  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:44 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Look through the Goudeys. That is where at least to my eye some of the cards appear to be the same, but with different certs as Paul mentioned.

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  #15  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:48 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Peter, some of the cards do appear to be the same exact card....The card Frank posted above looks to be the exact same card. Obviously not all of them are the same though. I think it's perfectly legitimate to be questioning what's going on here because it doesn't look right on a circumstantial level.

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  #16  
Old 04-16-2007, 07:56 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

It is hard to believe someone would have cracked all those high dollar, high grade, low pop cards out and resubmitted them -- it also appears that the "new" ones are not in any sequence in terms of the certification numbers so that seems to cut against that theory?

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Old 04-16-2007, 08:09 PM
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Posted By: Cat

Cards can be resubmitted to PSA to be reholdered and it is quite cheap to do so (new cert #?...I don't know, never done this). The question is: if one entity was reholdering a great number of cards wouldn't it raise a red flag to the grader? Certainly would seem to raise flags if the holders were pristine. Maybe Memory Lane was smart enough to put a big scratch in the holder before sending it back.

PSA Customer Service to Memory Lane: "It is our sincere belief that you should no longer store you holdered cards in the same safe as your raw diamonds...or at least put a small piece of bubble wrap between the two. It's just a suggestion."

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Old 04-16-2007, 08:10 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

You get the same cert. on a reholder. That doesn't explain the situation.

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Old 04-16-2007, 08:23 PM
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Posted By: Frank Evanov

[1] The cards don't sell in Dec. [although we are told they did.]

[2] They are cracked out and re-submitted...hoping for a higher grade.

[3] Failing a grade bump, they are re-sold.

[4] The prices are usually lower the second time since the first batch of sales was contrived.

The glitch is with step one. Posting sales that don't really occur is a big problem. Forget the accuracy of the pop reports; price manipulation is the major issue here.

Frank

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Old 04-16-2007, 08:29 PM
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Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby

To complicate things even more, is it just my imagination, or do some of these cards look like they have tampered holders?

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  #21  
Old 04-16-2007, 08:52 PM
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Posted By: sagard

I'd expect a little of everything is in play here. Some huge sales on low pops lead to similar consignments hoping for the same result. Unfortunately one of the previous buyers is out of the market and the price drops. Others are probably no pays/no sells.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:00 PM
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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I'd expect a little of everything is in play here. Some huge sales on low pops lead to similar consignments hoping for the same result. Unfortunately one of the previous buyers is out of the market and the price drops. Others are probably no pays/no sells.

Similar consignments?? Nope, the exact same card:

December



March





Frank

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:05 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation here, he said, stifling a laugh. Perhaps it will be the same reason for receiving an email that their auction was still receiving bids 16 hours after the closing of initial bidding.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:05 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

But with a different cert. That is the part I am trying to understand. Anyone have a logical explanation?

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:14 PM
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Posted By: Mike Mccullough

The March holder looks frosty on the edges... Could it be????

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:19 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

The cert number before the bottom Grove is a 1959 Topps Len Carpenter, and the cert number after it is a 1959 Topps Bobby Mitchell.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:24 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Funny how the cards received old cert numbers even though they were clearly re-submitted. Does anyone know if Memory Lane and PSA have a close relationship that could have facilitated such a thing? I can't imagine that PSA would do something for ML that is below standard ethical practice in the industry.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:24 PM
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Posted By: Mike

The logical explanation is scary!

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:26 PM
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Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby

Yes Peter, I was just checking that cert on the "March" 1934 Goudey Grove too and it's placed within a significant run of 1959 Topps Football cards. Very strange indeed. One would think '59 Topps FB cards and a '34 Goudey PSA 8 Grove would not even be within the same pricing structure and service for grading.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:29 PM
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Posted By: Steve M.

I checked the certs and they both came in as 34G Groves PSA 8.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:29 PM
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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

Just one little observation (which has already been implied). Resubmitting after cracking out and NOT returning the paper cert renders the pop report inaccurate in a way that serves to devalue the card. This is especially important when the salient selling point is the suggested scarcity of high grade PSA cards (which is Mem. Lane's entire business). So, as a business decision it's pretty stupid.

I think attributing bogus sales (ie fraudulent conduct) to Mem. Ln. is rather presumptuos. Sure it is always theoretically possible, Investors who may or may not really also be collectors are known to purchase solely to reauction them. Under that scenario Mem. Lane does nothing wrong at all -- some of these investors may not come out ahead but that's not Mem. Ln.'s fault or responsibility. Why someone buys something or what they intend to do with it is their business not the auctioneer's.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:30 PM
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Posted By: Dave

If it looks like a duck,and walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck...then it's probably a duck.

Once again PSA is involved in something that smells like rotten cheese, and with Memory Lane of all auction places. what a load of crap !! thanks for doing the investigative work on this Paul. You deserve a cold one on the house !!

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:36 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

The April Willie Kamm appears to be sandwiched between two midgrade 53 Bowman Color cards, a 5 Furillo and a 6 Slaughter. Well, I am sure the explanation will surface.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:53 PM
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Posted By: Peck

Not speaking of any certain auction:

One shill bidder can run the last bidder to his maxium (and past) knowing the lot will not be sold, just a top range established. Two shills can then expand the range making the only real bidder not even an under bidder. Second time around the item may sell for less that the shill price established and look like a good buy and the bidder is happy or real bidders may decide to take their bidding to new levels.

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Old 04-16-2007, 09:55 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The most amazing thing to me about all this is that PSA would associate itself so closely with Memory Lane -- even to the point of cleaning up its message boards which discussed JP Cohen's past -- just for advertising dollars presumably.

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:02 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Suppose I submit a bunch of cards and, within that run, a card gets rejected. I believe it gets assigned a cert. number. Is that number then available to be assigned to another legitimate card, or is it supposed to be "retired" for all time? IF at least some of these Goudeys from the second auction are in fact the same cards as from the first auction, and IF they in fact were resubmitted, I am looking for a logical explanation why they would have cert. numbers that were not in order and the only thing I can think of is that PSA took the occasion to reassign some old numbers that were available? Does that make sense? Of course I also don't understand why anyone would crack out high grade high dollar low pop cards to begin with (the Greenberg, for example, due to centering had zero chance of a 9).....

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:07 PM
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Posted By: Sean C

"The most amazing thing to me about all this is that PSA would associate itself so closely with Memory Lane -- even to the point of cleaning up its message boards which discussed JP Cohen's past -- just for advertising dollars presumably. "

That doesn't surprise me so much anymore. My guess is that JP is just taking advantage of an ever growing hunger to increase ad revenue on the PSA side of CU's business. Too bad it's at the expense of their reputation.

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:14 PM
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Posted By: Steve M.

"I am looking for a logical explanation why they would have cert. numbers that were not in order..."


If you submit cards directly to PSA and submit cards at a show it is likely that they will have differing cert number series. I don't think there is any rhyme or reason to PSA's numbering system.

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:15 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

In my experience submissions are returned with consecutive cert. numbers. Are you saying this does not happen at a show?

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:17 PM
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Posted By: quan

jeff i don't have time to follow the various boards that much anymore, did the psa people lock any threads on the cu board discussing about jp and ml? that would suck majorly. from personal experience when i've submitted single card to psa for crossover on previous occasions it's been sandwiched between a rejected '89 UD Griffey Jr and a '62 basketball Maravich card etc etc.

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:19 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

IF, and again it's IF, some of these cards are the same, in addition to winding up in different non-consecutive certs., how did they happen to end up in the same auction just 4 months later?

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:20 PM
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Posted By: Sean C

They went and outright deleted them (and I think some people were suspended over it as well). Nothing like protecting that advertising dollar...

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:23 PM
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Posted By: Steve M.

Yes, they are sequential at a show as well. I thought your concern was that the earlier Grove had an 0602...number and the second an 0159... number which would appear at first blush to be a lower number that the earlier one. Like I say the cert numbering system at PSA is a mystery to me. What I will say, contrary to a prior post, is that both of the pictured Grove cards are confirmed by PSA to be 1934 Goudey PSA 8 Grove cards.

I do agree that they are the same card. No doubt about that. Why, is another mystery...

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:27 PM
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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

My point was (1) that the "second" Grove (if it's the same card) has a cert. number within a group of 59 Topps FB which seems odd, and (2) that collectively, the "second" group of Goudeys (if they are the same cards) don't have consecutive numbers as you would expect if they were submitted all together by someone who won them and was cracking them out and resubmitting them, but appear to be numbered all over the place. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:32 PM
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Posted By: Steve M.

Thanks, now I understand.

I don't have a 34 Grove to compare for printing plate defects but my take that they are the same card is the small dot in the top border.

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:50 PM
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Posted By: Frank A.

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Old 04-16-2007, 11:13 PM
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Posted By: Fred C

Frank Evanov's post with the two 34G Groves is interesting... what gives? I'm like 99% certain that those are the same cards with different certs and holders. I suppose we'll just bury our heads in the sand... why try to get an answer on it. At best we can assume the response is going to be Houdiniesque...

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Old 04-17-2007, 04:46 AM
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Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby

Looking at PSA's book value (SMR) for the '34 Goudey PSA 8 Grove, it is listed at $3200 in PSA 8 and $7500 in PSA 9. Looking at the Fee Schedule for PSA Services, the submitter had to have used the Walk-Through Service at $85/per card.

The PSA website states the following for Walk-Through Service: "The turnaround guarantee assures you that PSA will have grades available the same day our receiving department processes your order. Cards may be submitted to Walk-Through service by mail or at PSA headquarters. Drop off service is by appointment only and cards must be received by 2:00 p.m. Pacific Time. Please call customer service at (800) 325-1121 to schedule Walk-Through service drop off."

How this card's cert number appeared within a bunch of '59 Topps Football cards is still perplexing. It's hard to believe the '59 Topps Football cards also went through the Walk-Through Service. In my 8 years of submitting at least 8,000 cards to PSA and seeing other's submission results, I've never seen an interruption in cert numbers in a submission for someone else's card(s). However, could it be possible that when PSA performs the Walk-Through Service, they tell a grader or graders, "Here's a Walk-Through order, stop what you are doing, and grade it right now, and then continue on with what you are doing" and that's how it shows up with a cert number like that?

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Old 04-17-2007, 05:01 AM
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Posted By: Eric B

Good question, Whenitwasahobby

The answer lies on when the 1959 cards were graded I suppose.

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Old 04-17-2007, 05:17 AM
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Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby

If these cards were bought strictly in hopes of getting a "bump-up" there are several including this one, that in my opinion, wouldn't stand a chance of going a grade higher:






Again, the seemingly "frosted" holder on the later one is disturbing.

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