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#1
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Robert Plancich
I recently received an auction catalog from American Memorabilia for their current auction that ends on December 9th. Lot #1 description reads "Early Ty Cobb Game Used Decal Bat, Finest Known." The SCDA Letter of Authenticity (LOA) states the following - under the Manufacturer Characteristics section it states that this bat was used during the regular season(s) 1911 -1916 and that the bat was made from "Professional Grade Ash". Under the Player Characteristics (Positive) section it states that the bat exhibits "heavy" game use. It also states that there are no visible ball and/or stitch marks because of the hardness of the wood (Professional Ash). It also states that Mr. Bushing's "forensic examination" revealed "several Cobb style scattered cleat marks" about the barrel. Finally, Mr. Bushing performed some sort of "Grain examination" and the results of that examination revealed that it was "Professional" grain. The LOA Certification number for this bat is 251862 and the bat was awarded an SCDA "Final Grade A5". |
#2
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Marc S.
Bushing is an active buyer of bats - which absolutely causes conflicts of interest for someone also serving as a professional authenticator. If you look at baseball cards, in comparison - all of the major grading companies have graders and authenticators that are not (at least outwardly) actively involved in the business of buying and selling baseball cards. |
#3
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: jay behrens
Mike Montbriand is the only person I would trust when it comes to bats. |
#4
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: scgaynor
It is only common sense that Cobb would not be issued a decal bat. I don't think that anybody who really knows bats believes that Ty Cobb actually used it. And in my opinion, I don't think that anybody who knows anything about vintage photography believes that the Old Judge Proofs are real either. |
#5
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Joe P.
Marc S.: |
#6
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: qualitycards
"was told in no uncertain words that these decal bats are simply store/retail model "souvenir" type bats and were not made for professional use, nor were they used by the players - no way, no how!" |
#7
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: jay behrens
I'm no bat expert, but every knowledgable source I've ever talked to has said decal bats were never used by players. |
#8
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: hankron
As far as experts go, I think all that matters is the quality/accuracy of the opinion, not whether or not they actively buy and sell. If you want to say that there should be disclosure that they have their financial hand in this or that, I'll go along with that, but it has never bothered me that an expert opnion comes from a dealer ... Lew Lipset's a dealer you know, and I'm sure he wouldn't have been able to write the Enclopedia of Baseball Cards without having bought and sold and traded a ton of cards. |
#9
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Julie
I'll have to go root through the wastebasket. These things are becoming a Travesty of Errors... |
#10
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Joe P.
This message has been edited by hankron on Dec 3, 2004 3:50 AM |
#11
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Elliot
Joe, I think David's record is 7, not the 10 you credited him with. Maybe if he started rubbing some cream on his fingers..... |
#12
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: hankron
The first post is the base coat, next comes the sky and grass, ... If things get too out of hand, I stick in a distracting picture of Gia Carangi or Jean Shrimpton, hoping people will bleep over the text altgether. |
#13
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: hankron
The above post is to prove that I can actually post without going back and editing it. God bless methidone. |
#14
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Joe P.
Self serving 30 second commercials are two different animals. |
#15
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: deleted
I just wasted one hour of my life reading through all of this (that I will never get back) to find that there are so many people with nothing better to do then bad mouth and attack other's. American Memorabilia really has nothing to defend. They were viciously attacked over their old judge proofs a while ago. But to all of you experts, they went overboard to prove their items were good. Now, some of you self proclaimed experts, the folks that put bidded on those proofs at least put their money where their mouth's are, you guys are still bitching? Why? |
#16
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: hankron
Please post the photo of Cobb at the plate with a decal bat. |
#17
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: dennis
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#18
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: phil
Ruth played for NY |
#19
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: DD
can be found on this post |
#20
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: hankron
Phil, I beleive you miss, or pretend to miss, the difference between the concepts of "used" and "used by Ty Cobb." |
#21
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: phil
Does this go for everything that is game used? Can you place the Babe Ruth bat sold recently that hit the first HR at Yankee Stadium in the Babes hands? Then that leads to the speculation, did it hit the ball? |
#22
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: scgaynor
UptownPhil, exactly what is your position at American Memorabilia? |
#23
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Anonymous
..that decal bats were ever used by players in that era. I'm no memorabilia buff, but had always heard and thought that these were only decorative souveniers sold in stores. |
#24
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Nick Martinez
Gentlemen (and Julie), |
#25
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: phil
Scott: |
#26
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: scgaynor
Nick, the term "bashing" connotes (at least to me) making negative statements that have no basis in fact. Since that is not the case here, I don't believe that it applies. |
#27
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: AugustWest
"there is a photo of Cobb online at bat during a game, clearly with a Decal Bat and at homeplate! Before you can get so cocky and defensive and order me to "find it!" I'll let you get it! Perhaps you will learn a thing or two" |
#28
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: scgaynor
Phil, or whatever your real name is, I find it odd that the first time that you participate on this board is in this thread, hmmm...... |
#29
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: derek
with the incredible amount of sports memorabilia in the marketplace (good and bad), i don't see how you can put the blame for any mistakes (if they truly are so), on auction houses like american memorabilia, who truly makes sincere attempts to only offer items that have been authenticated by industry experts. these individuals, are considered and respected as the foremost authorities, on this particular subject. what more could you ask for than someone whom, at their expense, goes to the top of their trade, to try to get it right. i for one, would rather put my trust in outfits like american memorabilia, who go the extra mile to get opinions from the most respected people in the business, rather than like some of these auction houses, where supposedly they authenticate in house, by their so called experts, but, where all sales are final. is this bat actually game used ty cobb??? i couldn't tell you. have i seen pictures with cobb using a decal bat??? yes, i can say that i truly have. This particular bat??? who knows... |
#30
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: david
the problem here isnt if the bat is a real cobb decal model bat that shows use, but if this bat was in fact USED BY COBB. Showing pictures of cobb with a decal bat does nothing to authentic this bat unless there are markings that can link the two, this is no doubt why bushing has given the bat a A5. the bat is a real ty cobb decal bat from there era but there is absolutely no evidence that cobb actually used this bat in a game besides speculation and hope. unlike the ruth bat which was just auctioned, which by the way comes with an inscription from ruth and well documented provenance as such. |
#31
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: DD
In the last Vintage Authentics auction (the one with the Tip Top card lot; sorry Dan) they had a Honus Wagner "game used" decal bat. The description from the catalog indicates it graded SCDA 8, and was certified by Bushing and Knoll. They state that it is from the 1905 era, and predates signature model Louisville Sluggers. Also, "It is a well known fact that players used decal bats as there are photos of Ty Cobb using them and there are decal game used bats in the Hall of Fame as well as Louisville Slugger". |
#32
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: scgaynor
Rumor has it that the Wagner Decal bat was found along with this Cobb bat. That is just want I heard, I can't verify that for sure. I think that there was another bat as well of a different player for a total of 3 bats. |
#33
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Paul
I have no knowledge of game used bats, so I take no position on this debate. However, I thought I'd pass along this email from American Memorabilia. The original email included a photo that is supposed to show Cobb using a decal bat. The photo won't reproduce in this thread. To me, the photo is inconclusive, but perhaps if seen in person it would clearly show Cobb using a decal bat. Anyhow, here's the email: |
#34
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: phil
In an interview with Robin Ventura, ESPN magazine reported that Ventura uses other players bats. Not only those of his teammates but those of opposing teams. Ventura, in his own admittance, stated that he obtained bats from other players and uses them. So you can't even today place a players bat in that particular players hands. So did Cal Ripkin use that bat... or did Robin Ventura? |
#35
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Paul
I believe Mickey Mantle once grabbed a pitcher's bat, while drunk, and hit a home run. So Robin Ventura is not the only one. |
#36
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: hankron
First I am not a bat expert, am not pretending to be one and do not know what type of bat Cobb or Wagner or Fred Lynn used. |
#37
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: hankron
"Attempts at authentication of rare, esoteric and previously unknown objects will often require great skill and time and do not always result in positive identification. There are many objects in museums where the idenification haven’t moved beyond speculation. Many descriptions of art will include phrases such as ‘Attributed to…” and “It is believed…” In the end, the examiner is not omniscient and only gives his or her best opinion. While we would all like to be able to positively identify all items all the time, even the world’s greatest experts will sometimes say, “I have no idea.” Far from being a sign of weakness, it is the expert who is well aware of his or her limitations in knowlwedge. It is the non-expert who claims to have all the answers." |
#38
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: phil
I think this topic can finally be put to rest. |
#39
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Scott
Anyone can tell that the supplied photo doesn't really show anything, and as David pointed out - even if proof existed that Cobb actually batted with decal bats, there's no evidence that he used this one. |
#40
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: hankron
The description of a bat doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation. If a bat is the type Cobb used, came from his estate or the Tiger's batboy and has relevant use/markings, one can say, as applies, "It is very much possible this bat was used by Cobb in a MLB game" or "There's a good chance" or even "We cannot be 100 percent sure, but our auction experts beleive this bat was used by Cobb in a MLB game." |
#41
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Joe P.
UptownPhil52: December 8 2004, 6:17 PM |
#42
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: dennis
is right on target! |
#43
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Robert Plancich
I have been doing additional research on this issue and one thing that is certain is that Cobb never and I mean never used a bat shorter than 34 inches. Dave Bushing the so-called "world's foremost expert" and Troy Kinunen, Director of Authentication for SCDA certainly should know and/or at least be aware of this fact. The bat that sold was 33 1/2 inches! |
#44
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Scott
Robert - the disturbing thing about that situation is the photo "evidence" that was presented (showing the 'decal'). The auction house wants so badly for that photo to show a decal that I believe they are positive that it does so, and that it's obvious to all...but it isn't...obvious. |
#45
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Robert Plancich
Sorry - I hit the "Respond" button twice! |
#46
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Robert Plancich
Scott - I agree with you to some extent. At this time I would have to say that there is evidence for both sides of the arguement. However, since there exists this "reasonable doubt" then why was a LOA issued at all on this particular bat. Dave Bushing has been billed as the "world's foremost expert", these are the questions and issues that some one of his expertise should be answering and/or addressing before he issues a LOA and certainly after the LOA has been issued. What does it say about him, his knowledge and SCDA when he and Troy Kinunen absolutely refuse to answer any questions on an item that they have claimed to authentic and game-used by Ty Cobb? What about the collector that purchased this bat? More importantly, what does their attitude and behavior regarding questions raised about this bat say about all the other bats that they have authenticated? |
#47
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: dennis
why should they have to answer your questions? after all no one else seems to care? it's old news. if people are willing to believe without or with little facts, so be it. so they missed a few.he's the expert. they are only human. there is no basis of a conflict of interest.you can't prove it is not. if he says its real.. its real.Hey, give Bushing some credit as a businessman. This situation is just "Bushing Bashing." stalker.......just thought i'd get a bunch of peoples comments into 1 paragraph so no one has to respond to this. |
#48
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Scott
I completely agree that COA's and LOA's shouldn't be written without adequate evidence. |
#49
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: Julie
We have at the Asian Art Museum, in an exhibit callrd "Fakes, Copies and Question Marks," a small painting of a prince visiting a guru, painted in India--quite recently. There is a (very small-print) LOA with it, saying, "this is a copy of an ancient Indian painting; buy it, in 150 years, it, too will be an ancient Indian painting." The painting is surrounded by very old Persian writing, as Indian paintings often are--writing MUCH older than the copy inside it, and having nothing top do with it (I'm told). |
#50
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Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat
Posted By: dennis
julie is the loa from bushing??? |
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