Baseball cards as an asset class

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Posted By: Jason

On a whim, I did a simple Google search on "baseball cards as an asset class" and found that our wonderful little pieces of cardboard are indeed beginning to sneak into formal discussions of investment personnel, included in lists of alternative asset classes amongst colelctables and art, etc.

Among some of these discussion forums are Northern Trust, The Motley Fool, The Industry Standard, and Private Wealth.

I was surprised.

Anyone else see baseball cards discussed within this investment context lately?

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Posted By: Jim VB

Honestly, I've never thought of them as an asset. For the last 40 years they have always been a "variable expense." (The only variable being how much money I had to spend on them.)

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Posted By: brian

This will be fun if everyone shows up...

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

This is a rehash of events that occurred 15-20 years ago. I can see it as a small (5-10%) chunk of an investment portfolio but still I think it's very volatile to invest in bb cards solely for speculative purposes. It is, of course, a nice by product of collecting when the values go up.

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Posted By: Jason

Now, don't get me wrong - nowhere in these articles were cards mentioned as anything but an alternative placeholder of value, (such as art or other collectables), within the context of a diversified portfolio of assets.

Baseball cards were not discussed in detail, and they were not discussed as an active primary investment vehicle in any of these mentions.

I was simply surprised to see them explicitly making the list at all within formal discussions of the investing "Establishment." Previously, I had always seen these lists of "other" assets to include art, coins, real estate, etc...

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Invest in mutual funds. Invest in stocks, or bonds. Invest in real estate. Invest in an education, your own or your spouse's, or your child's. Invest in your home.

Baseball cards are not an investment. Even if someone wants them to be, even if someone thinks that's what they're doing... they're fooling themselves. Their frontal lobe needs further development.

If baseball cards are an investment, then they're a poorly chosen investment. Worse than first edition books, better than Happy Meal toys.

Collecting baseball cards is a hobby. Investing in baseball cards is foolishness.

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Posted By: peter chao

Agreed. Not a good idea to invest in baseball cards.

Three major weaknesses: 1) baseball cards are not liquid in comparison to stocks and bonds, 2) card market has a very short track record (maybe 20 years), and 3) the market is very thinly traded (so the absence of a 1/2 dozen collectors could have an impact).


Peter C.

Edited to included 3) above.

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Posted By: David Smith

How about the T206 Wagner??

Does anyone have an asset calculator or some other guide which could tell you what an investment in the stock market would have done over a certain number of years??

I mean, you take what the Wagner sold for when Gretzky bought it and then take the $2.35 million it sold for earlier this year and then compare that to what an investment in various stocks would have been over that same time period. Compare it to Microsoft and Apple and then maybe an S & P 500 Index mutual fund and see how they compare.

I KNOW the Wagner has performed better than Enron, Adelphia and Conseco shares....

David

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Posted By: davidcycleback

An experienced collector is far more knowledgeable about baseball cards than he is about any Fortune 500 company. If an expert collector knew as much about Microsoft, Exxon or real estate as he does about baseball cards, he'd be hired as a Wall Street analyst.

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Posted By: Perry Eaves

There seems to be a stigma about admitting that baseball cards are an investment for the "old school" collectors. Vintage graded cards are an investment whether you like it or not. Good or bad but nonetheless an investment. You make some very good points Peter Chao. I noticed on the board awhile back you were interested in purchasing a t206 cobb in psa 4 for approx $1000. Assuming you eventually purchased, did you honestly believe you were saying goodbye to a grand forever so you could stroke an old baseball card for the love? The answer is no, you may enjoy the card but in the back of your mind you always believed that you would at least get your money back or perhaps a profit. If not for yourself then maybe for a child. Maybe the card goes up and maybe the card goes down, either way you have made a concrete investment in cardboard. If you put it in the closet for a rainy day and never look at it or take it out every night and drool on it, either way irrelevant. Still an investment. I have a relatively minimal investment in cards, but take solace in the fact that if times get hard can easily put on ebay and get investment back and perhaps profit. I propose this question, if you needed money quickly would you rather have a $100k house for sale or the equivalent in graded baseball cards?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Baseball cards have been a good investment for collectors who have been in the hobby a long time and know what they are doing.

But putting money blindly into an investment fund that has some designated card buyer for the fund is not likely to have a happy ending.

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Posted By: ErlandStevens

I think it would be very hard to be a good baseball card collector and investor. Investing is trying to maximize wealth for future needs. Once you have an attachment to an item (like card collectors tend to have), then making rational buy/sell decisions would be almost impossible. If you are a portfolio manager and don't give a hoot about cards aside from their dollar value, then it could work in theory.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Collectibles are clearly an important asset class. Particularly
among the top 1% of Americans who control 35% of the wealth.

The private banks and family offices which assist the country’s
wealthiest citizens with their finances generally have
experts on staff to advise in the collectibles arena.

Whilst trading in baseball memorabilia is certainly not as
“fluid” as the equity and bond markets, or for that matter
the rare coin market, one would be hard-pressed to argue
that a multi-million dollar collection of high grade cards is
not an asset class.

No one is suggesting that a sophisticated investor should
allocate 25% or 50% of his assets to collectibles, but if one
were to review the asset allocation of private banking customers,
one would find that equity, bonds, property and cash rarely represent
100% of a client’s portfolio.

Whether it be art, antiques, coins or baseball cards, “collectibles”
often represent 2-5% of the overall assets.

If liquidity were the primary concern, then the investor should limit
him/herself to cash, equity and government bonds. However,
we think that an investment in ultra high grade baseball cards
will generally outperform the other markets.

Of course, the strategy for an investor will have to be quite
different from the strategy of a “pure collector.” One must
invest in items where there is active, consistent trading
and prices are not controlled by a handful of “investors/collectors.”

For example, if one tracked public auction records for the
past 10 years for PSA 8 Hall of Famers from the three most
popular pre War Sets ( T 206, 1915 Cracker Jacks and
1933 Goudeys), one would find that the growth in portfolio
value would dwarf the equity, bond or real estate markets.


Bruce Dorskind
America’s Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I buy a stock because I think it is undervalued, or that it will gain in value relative to its current value. Any seller's remorse that I experience is directly related to the stock's gain after I sell.

When I get a baseball card I think of the player, of the team, of the era. There's the "attachment" mentioned above.

Maybe, just maybe, to invest in baseball cards, the investor would need to be clueless about who Cobb was, who Wagner was, who the Cubs were and are... Then there would be sufficient detachment.

I agree that some card prices have gone up. So has copper prices, and crude oil prices... I still think that anyone "investing" in baseball cards (nay, sports cards, I'd like to have a National Chicle card of Bronko Nagurski, even in beat up shape) is fooling themselves, trying to rationalize where they've put there money.

Invest in pencils. They were a nickel when I was a kid...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm not sure the statement 1% of the top earners control 35% of the wealth is correct. They certainly control more than they should, but I believe the number is smaller than that.

And certainly a portfolio of PSA 8's would have performed extremely well, but I would always have my doubts about the person chosen to put this portfolio together. Would it be a knowledgeable collector, or just a disinterested investor who reads the latest market quotes?

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Posted By: Jim VB

I agree with you completely (Except for that pencil part. Staples pencils 6 dozen for $2.99 is about 4 cents apiece.)




Great! Another excuse to buy cards.


(Edited to take out a link that was way too long and making the page too wide. Sorry. Go to Staples.com)

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

"The richest 1% of the population now owns
almost 35% of all the private wealth in
America, more than the bottom 90%
of the population combined." - The Wealth Inequality Reader


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: barrysloate

Would you say that statistic is good for the country or bad?

If a tiny group controls that much wealth, where does it leave the other 99%, particularly those in the bottom half?

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

August 30 2007, 9:37 AM



Our quote with regard to the distribution of wealth was made simply
to support the fact that baseball cards, like other collectibles,
are an asset class. Accordingly, wealth management firms
have experts on staff who understand (or at least state
they understand the collectibles market).
.
Before one is too quick to complain about the wealthy, remember
a significant portion of that group is made up of people who the other
99% choose to worship like entertainers, athletes and politicians.

We believe that someone who wants to work 100 hours a week,
risk his own capital and who has great creative talent has every right
to earn whatever he can.

One should also remember a very old proverb "How you stand on an
issue depends on where you sit" Look, for example, at the poor
people who won a lottery or had a blue collar job at a hot IPO company
that went public. You'll find a dramatic change in their politics as well as
their stand on wealth distribution.

What we can say with great certainty is that the fact that 1% of
population controls 35% of the wealth may or may not be good
for the country, but it has certainly been terrific for the 10-15
dealers who regularly hold rare card auctions.


Bruce Dorskind
Minds That Matter

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I hate to admit I am in partial agreement with the Dorskinds. Cards are an asset and anyone arguing to the contrary is overlooking decades of history. However, he is wrong on two points:

1. "One must invest in items where there is active, consistent trading..." Wrong. The best way to make money in cards is to figure out what cards are going to be hot and get into those just ahead of the curve. We've seen it in E cards and certain T cards, and very soon we are going to see it in ___ cards.


2. "and prices are not controlled by a handful of “investors/collectors.”" That statement also is wrong as applied to the high numbered slabs that the Dorskinds tout. The ultra high slab number vintage card market is the essence of a thinly traded market, as there are only a handful of rich white boys fighting it out over those cards.

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Posted By: leon

I will have to respectfully disagree with those that say cards are not an investment. I think they are. One of the reasons they have done so well is that they are an investment that you can enjoy too. I don't buy cards "as" an investment but to not think of them as one is foolish, imo. I have only had resources to be in the stock market the last 12-13 years. I have been collecting cards, as an adult, for about 10 years. Want to guess which has performed better? Want to guess which has given me greater pleasure? I am NOT saying that cards should be your ONLY investment or be a major part of your asset portfolio (I am addicted and mine is, what can I say?) but to have them be a part of it is not a bad idea...again, just my opinion. For the record I get quite a few calls from folks that do a google search and find my personal website and collection and ask about buying something from it...which I politely answer "no" to almost every time. Each time I ask them how long they have been collecting they usually tell me a year or two. they usually say they collected as a kid and now as an adult want to collect pre-war stuff..I then point them to this forum and let them know they can interact with other collectors and have a lot of fun here. Last thing...my old story about Microsoft stock and my fave card. Back in about 1999-2000 I sold 300 shares of Microsoft at $71 ea. I put in another $5000 and bought my Four Base Hits Kelly (from a valued board member no less). I have about $26,500 into it...Microsoft is about $30 today...so that would be $9000 if I were to have kept it. I think the Four Base Hits is worth a little more than $14,500 today.....but had I not bought the card that is what I would have. I know this is isolated to one transaction but most rare, pre-war, baseball cards bought 8 years ago have done extremely well compared to the stock market in general. I have to mostly agree with the Dorskind Group, better known as "we", on this matter.....regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

I actually feel Bruce stated his position well and I fully agree that those with talent and a strong work ethic deserve to be compensated. Where we might disagree is perhaps they are compensated a bit too well.

Likewise, there are so many people who work themselves to the bone and get little in return. If my apartment were on fire, I'd rather have the services of a fireman over a hedge fund manager.

Nevertheless, cards have performed well but I would only advise someone who has collected for years and knows the business to invest using his own expertise. I would not want someone with little knowledge of baseball cards to do my investing for me.

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Posted By: Jimmy

I consider baseball cards as an asset just like my coins and antiques, I invest in what I know and follow through with collecting specific items. We are not buying and selling modern cards here, but investing in items that have the potential to do well in the hobby for years to come. If you asked me the same question 10 years ago, I would say baseball cards were just something I collected as a kid, the trend has changed with so many opportunities to learn and appreciate the hobby. It really does depend on the person and how you look at collecting and investing. I buy and sell what I know and sometimes keep a piece or two because I am still a collector. The knowledge I have gained from doing it this way has allowed me to invest and learn more about specific items and the hobby. I also would not have found this site if I was just collecting.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Jason L

with the discussion of equity of America's class structure...

But, I was just wondering if people were seeing more formalized presentation of cards as an alternate asset class??? I find these recent mentions to be interesting and I am wondering if that may foretell of future increased instiutionalized interest.

I don't think there's any question that since they have proven to be a "store of value" in the aggregate, that it is correct to consider them as a subset of the "collectables" asset class.

Echoing others' comments, some cards hold value or appreciate better than others, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket, and there will always be collectors and investors - I don't push one or the other...

Since this seems to be the direction in which it is evolving, grading companies, high-end auctions, pricing information (a la VCP), and enthusiast communities should only become more important as the market continues to develop.

Here's a great question: Has anyone been pitched collectables investing as part of an overall strategy by an investment professional???

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Posted By: barrysloate

I've never been pitched baseball cards as an investment, and I don't know if institutions would feel completely comfortable with them. I'll repeat, you need to have knowledge and a feel for them to make money. I wouldn't trust someone just throwing together a breadbasket of PSA 8's and calling that an investment. I'd rather build a mid-grade set of E93's, or buy a genuinely rare card, and hang onto it for a while.

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Posted By: Larry

We feel as though the top 1% of wage earners in this country don't really care about the remaining 99% of the peasantry.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Larry- you're probably right, and therein lies the problem.

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Posted By: JimB

Bruce said,
"One should also remember a very old proverb "How you stand on an
issue depends on where you sit""

This is why the great Harvard political philosopher John Rawls suggested that when we construct socio/political/economic system we should do so behind a "veil of ignorance". First you create a political system, and then you find out your place in the system. In other words, if you did not know if you would be a lawyer making 7 figures or flipping burgers at McDonalds, what kind of system would you create? If you did not know if you would be African American or white, or whatever, would you be in favor of a system with affirmative action, or not? If you did not know if you would be gay or not, would you favor gay marriage in the society you were creating or not? Honestly putting ourselves behind a veil of ignorance provides an interesting experiment in justice and fairness. Rawls was arguably the most important and influential American philosopher of the 20th century.
JimB

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Posted By: Jimmy

I agree with Barry,

"you need to have knowledge and a feel for them to make money"

- experience and learning is the key -

Jimmy

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Jim,

Best post on here in a long time.



Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Bob

Hobby first, but yes, I agree with Leon, definitely an investment. Just ask the guy who bought 10,000 Joe Charboneau rookie cards, I bet he wasn't imbued with the hobby just looking for a rapid fire growth investment
I also agree with Bruce that 1% of the nation owns almost all the wealth and with Barry that that same 1% could give a rat's patoot what happens to the other 99%. Sad but true...

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I would guess that most people who collect baseball cards don't buy cards because they want to make money on them, but because they want them for their collections. But of course collectors do hope that the cards they buy will at least hold their value over time, in case they want to sell them someday. So in that sense they are 'investing' their money in their collection.

There are exceptions to this of course -- for example speculating on rookie cards, even to the extent of buying multiple copies of a particular player's card. That is not collecting. I don't know how many people actually do this however.

Baseball card dealers buy cards with the intention of making money on them, but they usually want to turn them over quickly, as opposed to holding them for the long term. So that isn't really investing, it's buying and selling a commodity. (Some people do this in the stock market too.) I guess a collector who sees a good deal on a card and snatches it up because they know they can immediately 'flip' it to someone else for a profit would fit into the same category.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I recently read that Bill Gates is no longer the wealthiest person in the world, and that the title now belongs to some robber baron in Mexico. Isn't it strange that the richest person in the world is from one of its poorest countries, where most of the people barely have enough to eat and live on?

There's something wrong with that story.

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Posted By: peter chao

I have 95% of my money in real estate, stocks etc. There's less than 5% in baseball cards. However, I tend to worry about the money I put into my cards a lot more than the other 95%.

The reason is quite simple. Baseball cards is a nontraditional investment vehicle. If you lose money in stocks you can explain it away by saying, "honey, there were all these accounting scandals and the market took a dive..."
There will be some sympathy and you simply try again.

Now if you lose significant money on baseball cards you are basically on your own. Not only will your wife not understand, but it is doubtful that any of your friends or relatives will either.

So that's why I end up worrying a lot more about the 5% I have in baseball cards. My goal is to keep decreasing the percentage in baseball cards until I no longer worry about it.

Peter C.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

to view the world through. I think I'll carry that all the rest of my days.

Thank you.

Daniel

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Posted By: peter chao

I read John Rawls a long time ago, wonderful sentiments.

Unfortunately, our society is focused on short term results and that makes it difficult for our law makers to act impartially.

Peter C.

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Posted By: David Davis

By the way, the elitists continue to steal from the masses. Howard Zinn, author of A People's History of the United States, is the person that coined the phrase about 1/3 of the wealth belonging to 1% of the people.

He also said, 'Remember this: Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.” that quote makes me feel good. Maybe I'll decide to sell my Temple Cup broadside now.

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Posted By: Dave Haas

I'm sure if the IRS could figure out how to determine the cost basis and the final sales price of our cards when we sell them, they sure would want us to pay the 28% long term capital gains tax on collectibles. To the IRS the cards are definitely assets and not the cheap 15% tax ones either. Pretty soon the auctions will start sending out 1099's at the end of the year for items we auction, or do they already?

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Posted By: paulstratton

So all the Rawls fans would be willing to let the govt. redistribute their money/cards/real estate in order to help the poor and disadvantaged? I'll believe it when I see Jim's E93 Matty in my mailbox!

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Posted By: peter chao

Paul,

Unfortunately, if a redistribution occurred we would likely end up with '88 Donruss commons.

Peter C.

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Posted By: nbrazil

"I recently read that Bill Gates is no longer the wealthiest person in the world, and that the title now belongs to some robber baron in Mexico. Isn't it strange that the richest person in the world is from one of its poorest countries, where most of the people barely have enough to eat and live on?"

Carlos Slim. Tycoon in the telecommunications industry.

He leap frogged Gates and Buffett after both gave up huge donations to foundations.

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Posted By: sagard

"He leap frogged Gates and Buffett after both gave up huge donations to foundations."

Are these foundations actually advanced tax shelters that do good? I can't see either of those two actually giving up control over the wealth they donated.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

If that involves card sales, so be it.

Again, without veering too far off into politics or economics, I think a very good point was touched on but not expanded above, namely, that one of the reasons why certain investments (like cards) are marginalized is the reluctance of the conventional investment community to look at them. Stocks, bonds, real estate, etc., have been "canonized" as quality investments, nevermind the collapses and volatility that pops up to bite the investors in the behind every few years, by an industry looking to earn from them. The investment advice industy is not comfortable with collectibles as investments because (1) they don't understand them, and (2) there are no commissions or other money to be earned in advising a client to buy them. We live in an era where packaging an idea is often more important than the idea and where institutional hostility to new ideas is part of the background noise. Marshall McLuhan said "in big industry new ideas are invited to rear their heads so they can be clobbered at once" [see marshallmcluhan.com] and he has never been more right than with financial advisors. Conventional investment professionals don't want to be the first one to champion a new investment, so they don't take maverick positions and they certainly don't advise their clients to invest unconventionally. And it isn't like the investment industry doesn't advise people to buy crap, it just advises them to buy crap that fits into a specific classification it understands. I lost all my investment in Enron, but I can fall back on a whaddayagonnado, I invested it excuse. But if my same investment in T206 went into a freefall, I'd be ridiculed, even though I'd still have the cards to enjoy and possibly sell later on. I can show a financial planner 30 years of dramatic market price increases in cards but they will still advise me that I am wasting my money and I should buy stocks instead.

Finally, look at who is buying this stuff. We have a lot of lawyers, investment pros, CEOs, etc. I do not believe that all of the educated, astute people who we know are 6 and 7 figures into cards are consciously pissing away their money; many are tighter than a bullfrog's butt and none of them are going to fritter away that kind of money on something they don't believe will pay off over the long term.

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Posted By: Jason L

Thank you Mr. boxingcardman. that is exactly the kind of thought I was looking for here...
change is not embraced in the investment advice community until people are damn well sure they can't be sued for giving the advice, which means you need valuable data to back it up. That is where the aging of pricing databases such as VCP will proive to be invaluable over time...because if you chart it, and prove it happened...you can sell it!

very interesting thought
thanks

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Posted By: peter chao

Adam,

I basically agree with you. However, you need to decide what your investment goals are. If you want to remain well-off and unbattered by your wife you go for conservative investments with a long track record.

If you are younger and unmarried you can take more chances. If you are in the process of building a nest egg then you can allocate a larger percentage to nontraditional investments with short track records.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Steve f

Investment, and please leave it at that. My wife occasionally looks at this board!

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Are you guys really that afraid of your wives????



I hope not. Be well Brian

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Posted By: barrysloate

If you believe in the future value of baseball cards and want to invest in them, do it yourself. Learn what cards will always be desirable and buy them. Build a nice collection and it will likely take care of itself.

But don't expect any investment advisor to do it for you.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

cards (especially high-grade & rarities), are without a doubt, a great investment...i am a collector at heart,
and am by no means a "flipper", but i have certainly sold my share of cards when i have an opportunity to sell something at a huge profit (which i have done many times), i do it without a second thought.

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Posted By: peter chao

Brian,

Your right I shouldn't be that afraid of my wife. But she is pretty tough.

When you get older, there are simply more responsibilities, so you tend to get more conservative in your investments.

Peter C.