Fanatics buys PWCC

[slightlyrounded]

Whelp, there goes the neighbourhood.

https://www.actionnetwork.com/genera...s-collectibles

[butchie_t]

This will be interesting to follow. Not sure where this fits into Fanatics business model. But they are gonna have to do some fence mending as it pertains to PWCC.

Interesting times indeed.

B. Turner

[mrreality68]

Wow the market is consolidating and Fanatics is now in online auctions.

I wonder if they truly looked at PWCC full access

[Casey2296]

I thought this was an interesting part;

At the height of the card craze, vault members were allowed to take out loans against their vaulted cards, using those cards as collateral.

That helped light the card market on fire as some of those people then took their loan money to buy more.

But when the market plummeted, there were enough of those people who just said, “I’ll keep my money, you keep my cards.”

[Peter_Spaeth]

The article refers to the vault in the past tense?

[Jay Wolt]

The article stated "undisclosed sum" wonder what the # was?
& will Brent & Betsy go off in the sunset or will they try something else in the hobby?

[theshowandme]

Fanatics can now take cards fresh off the presses with defects, use PWCC certified trimmers, get them over to some buddies at PSA, and move cards through auctions.

Brilliant move

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

But they are gonna have to do some fence mending as it pertains to PWCC.

It is gonna be interesting to see how they burnish that turd.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Fanatics can now take cards fresh off the presses with defects, use PWCC certified trimmers, get them over to some buddies at PSA, and move cards through auctions.

Brilliant move

How great would it be if the flips identified the trimmer? PWCC-GM.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Fanatics can now take cards fresh off the presses with defects, use PWCC certified trimmers, get them over to some buddies at PSA, and move cards through auctions.

Brilliant move

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How great would it be if the flips identified the trimmer? PWCC-GM.

GM print run might water down his market since it will be so high, but the lower print run, or mare scarce pieces by other trimmers is where the $ will be at

[slightlyrounded]

Would love to see the indemnity clauses in the purchase contract.

[G1911]

I guess I've bought my last ever box of Topps now. Shame.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Would love to see the indemnity clauses in the purchase contract.

Not to mention the reps and warranties.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

GM print run might water down his market since it will be so high, but the lower print run, or mare scarce pieces by other trimmers is where the $ will be at

DFs could command premiums.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

DFs could command premiums.

DMs do amazingly well and have for a very long time.

[rhettyeakley]

Strange move IMO. Not sure they needed to do that but so be it. Hopefully Brent and the known card doctors are no longer involved.

[Johnny630]

When are they Changing the Name...that would be the first order of business. Rid themselves of their past history.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

When are they Changing the Name...that would be the first order of business. Rid themselves of their past history.

Fanatics says no plans for now to change operations or branding, but that won't last IMO.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fanatics says no plans for now to change operations or branding, but that won't last IMO.

Totally Agree

[BeanTown]

So what happens to the ongoing FBI investigation surrounding PWCC

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

So what happens to the ongoing FBI investigation surrounding PWCC

Who says there is one?

[Republicaninmass]

Price of a dime , 1/10th of a dollar.


After collectable, I'd be worried about my vault holdings

[raulus]

Fun times, fun times.

I guess we'll see what changes they decide to make, and how those play out. It's hard to imagine that they're just buying it without plans to make some significant changes to operations, and not just to personnel.

Here's hoping that the changes are positive for the industry. Although from the sound of it, plenty around here seem to be cheering the possibility of regime change, although I suspect the outgoing regime is laughing all the way to the bank with one of those "9 figure bank accounts" we hear so much about from some quarters.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Fun times, fun times.

I guess we'll see what changes they decide to make, and how those play out. It's hard to imagine that they're just buying it without plans to make some significant changes to operations, and not just to personnel.

Here's hoping that the changes are positive for the industry. Although from the sound of it, plenty around here seem to be cheering the possibility of regime change here, although I suspect the outgoing regime is laughing all the way to the bank with one of those "9 figure bank accounts" we hear so much about from some quarters.

Brentsy have been laughing all the way to the bank for years I would guess.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Totally Agree

Well if they truly want to make money rebranding would make more sense but perhaps they want to see what the brand can do with them running it. Many may not like it or trust them but a lot of people are buying from them, selling with them and vaulting with them.

But I think the real value is in the vault and the following/data clients, etc

Now if they can rebuild the trust of many doubters then it becomes a home run from them.

[BobC]

Not really surprising at all. Fanatics is partially owned by the major U.S. sports leagues, and their relative player's unions/associations. They are in the process of buiiding a complete vertical market to control (and profit) from as many aspects of their respective sports as they can. By going vertical, instead of horizontal, they can better escape anti-trust scrutiny, and with the various leagues/player's associations involved, they control they rights as to who can even issue cards of current/future players. Exactly how they cut Topps, and their IPO aspirations, right off at the knees, and then swooped in to buy and take over Topps at about half of what their IPO had projected as their entity value. The next step I can see is Fanatics now looking for their own grading company as well.

Based on their previous/current actions, Fanatics looks for current existing companies to take over and work with, so I would expect them to attempt to try getting an already established and accepted TPG. Based on that thinking, I would assume PSA, which is privately owned by the group that took over Collectors Universe (and also has Golding Auctions in their holdings) is likely not available for sale. Nor would one think that Fanatics would have bothered picking up PWCC if they were looking to acquire the PSA parent company that already owns Goldin Auctions. They wouldn't need both PWCC AND Goldin.

Meanwhile, CSG is part of a larger, world-wide third-party grading company, Certified Collectibles Group (CCG), that includes companies/divisions that also grade currency, comic books, and such. And since they (CSG) entered the sports card TPG industry not that long ago, I don't see their parent company looking to sell off this newest division of theirs's, and I don't see Fanatics having any interest looking in taking over the entire CCG parent company and additionally getting into grading currency, comics, and such. So to my thinking, that would eliminate CSG from being a target of Fanatics as well.

Also, both PSA and CSG currently have deals/arrangements with Ebay as their Authentication Program partners. Acquiring PWCC would tend to make one think that Fanatics is looking for their own, separate market place, and not be involved with selling on Ebay at all. So, looking at either PSA or CSG doesn't make sense since that would suddenly tie Fanatics to Ebay as well.

That leaves SGC and Beckett grading services as the remaining two possible/most likely targets IMO. Due to some of the other areas that Beckett is involved in, such as their magazines/periodicals, not so sure Fanatics would be looking to jump into that area, and not sure Beckett would be willing to just sell off their grading services alone. That leaves me thinking that SGC would be the most likely target for Fanatics if they do decide to also shoot for their own grading service. Though SGC is known/favored more in the hobby as a vintage card grading company, can only imagine the leaps forward they could take with the financial backing of the likes of those behind Fanatics, including maybe getting a registry up and running again.

After, or maybe even before, that, I wonder if a major Breaker may not be in Fanatics acquisition crosshairs as well. Or they may just create their own alternative to the Breakers as they are already a well-established direct marketing company themselves.

Will be interesting to see where Fanatics goes with this PWCC acquisition and how they utilize the company going forward. I would fully expect Fanatics to retain current top management to continue running their new company/division (ie: Brent and Betsy), at least for a period of time to properly transition PWCC operations to Fanatics' control/direction. This acquisition may also explain, at least partially, the recent news about layoffs having occurred at PWCC. Possibly a little "house cleaning" prior to the new owners moving in? I can imagine this is just another piece in Fanatic's overall plans going forward to develop, expand and further control their vertical market of sports related cards/collectibles.

[mrreality68]

Bob

You should be writing some of the articles we see out there.

Well written and well thought out

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

The article stated "undisclosed sum" wonder what the # was?
& will Brent & Betsy go off in the sunset or will they try something else in the hobby?

Rumors exist that "Brentsy" will soon become Brent and Bestsy, as they were before marriage. As they were both partners in this organization, guessing this is the easiest way for both to leave the ownership of this organization with a good amount of $$$.

This buy-out might be a better explanation for the release of 30 employees last month....highly unlikely Brent decided to sell right after the layoffs and follow-up with discussing the organization's upcoming streamlining plans for no reason. This buy-out has clearly been in the works for a while. My guess is that Brent will stay on(as a non-owner), at least for a while.

Take the rumor's source for what it is worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqa1TKAikYE

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's a very long relationship, I seem to recall Brent had a picture of he and Betsy on his listings way way back in the day when they were not much older than kids. Things happen I guess.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Bob

You should be writing some of the articles we see out there.

Well written and well thought out

+1.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Bob

You should be writing some of the articles we see out there.

Well written and well thought out

LOL!

Thanks Jeff. I'm sure there are many here on the forum that don't like my writing at all. But after 40-50 years as a CPA working in both the public and private sectors, and being involved with various company/entity sales and acquisitions over the many years, I know how to look at and discuss things from the business and tax standpoints as well as from the pure hobby standpoint. Let's be honest and face it, with all these bigger and bigger companies and entities getting involved in our hobby, and their expansion of the hobby industry (and an industry it now truly is), collectors tend to forget, or ignore, the fact that these hobby industry businesses are doing just that, thinking and operating like businesses first, and not really thinking like a true hobbyist/collector does.

At this point, the major U.S. sports leagues and players unions/associations are flexing their muscles and moving into the collectibles/card area of their respective sports to better control, and ultimately profit even more from, what they do in their respective sports. What will be truly interesting is how they act going forward in regard to the sports card markets, and if they continue to see it grow while also morphing and adopting to changing technology and collector/fan interests. Right now, the modern market is still primarily run through the Breakers, and thus the reason for all the manufactured rarities, crazy multiple inserts and subsets, and so on. The products are tailored for the Breaker market, and the idea that people can get big hits when buying into breaks. Set collecting is pretty much gone with modern collectors, unless you count the minority who still go to buy say a complete Topps base set every year. But even so, they tend to just buy the complete sets, not work on putting any together by buying packs/breaks. As the early Topps/baby boomer generation, that grew up buying Topps packs back then at virtually every five and dime/drugstore in the country, starts to leave us, those kinds of collectors are disappearing, along with their way of collecting and putting together sets and such. The real old vintage, pre-war stuff will always have a market and collector interest, but it will be interesting to see how things will be going forward in the modern markets, especially if Fanatics and others still involved in creating cards start doing things that in some way or manner negatively impact the Breaker distribution system/network as it currently stands. Again, will be curious to see how Fanatics and the major U.S. sports leagues and their players work together to continue, and hopefully/potentially even grow, the current sports card/collectibles market.

With my background and experience, I tend to look at the hobby with both a collector's eye, and that of a businessperson as well. Not very many collectors/hobbyists tend to like discussing the business aspects behind a lot of these industry moves. Like when it was first announced that CSG had agreed to work with and partner in grading cards for PWCC customers, not all that long after they had first entered the sports card TPG service market. In that thread, I mentioned trying to start a serious discussion about the merits and such of what CSG was doing, from a business standpoint, and politely asked that the typical forum trolls cease their crap for at least a little bit to not just blindly start attacking PWCC again so we could possibly have a reasonably intelligent discussion for once, about the business aspects of what CSG was possibly trying to do back then. Of course, the trolls came right out and made any such discussion impossible, even to the point of some accusing CSG being as guilty as they felt PWCC allegedly was, despite the fact that CSG hadn't even graded a card for PWCC yet. There were even those who swore to never do any business with CSG ever, because they dared to do business with PWCC. But wasn't it the other TPGS that had all those supposedly altered/doctored cards in their holders that had previously worked with PWCC, yet none of those people declared they would no longer do business with any of them. I thought that was so stupid and comical, get mad and blame the new TPG business that hadn't done anything wrong yet, but don't really say anything about the earlier TPGs that had all the bad cards in their holders from supposedly working with PWCC. The absolute idiocy of some people here on the forum making such comments, observations, and allegations, and their inability or refusal to ever think about reasonably discussing such matters from the business/industry side, is often very frustrating. The way the current hobby/industry operates, you have to look at it from different viewpoints/aspects, and with a somewhat open mind. Sadly, finding people in the hobby willing and able to be open minded and discuss and look at such things from all sides isn't always that easy to do.

[BobC]

And speaking of moves and such by Fanatics, can't remember where but, I thought I had recently read/heard somewhere that in conjunction with MLB, the teams in future years were going to start having their rookies wear some kind of MLB Debut patch on their uniforms the first few games or so they appear in. My understanding is those patches will then be removed after those first few games, and then get turned over to Topps for inclusion on designated rookie cards for those same players. Shades of the Logoman card successes NBA player cards have seen in recent years. How many of you think Topps would have been able to so easily set up and do something like that, before they were acquired and now owned by Fanatics? Being partly owned by MLB and the MLB Players Association can sure make doing such things happen that likely would never have happened when Topps was independent and on their own. Just another instance/example of how times are changing. Wonder what is next that they'll come up with.

[Bigdaddy]

A couple of observations about Fanatics:

• They seem to have no limits on where they will insert themselves. If it involves sports and a profit can be made, they're in.
• I agree with BobC that a TPG might be the next company in their crosshairs. I'll posit that it will be FCG - a new entry into grading, but one that seems to be higher on the technology ladder than most of the others.
• Fanatics is just getting started and I believe they will squeeze every last bit of 'hobby' out of the sportscard market. If you were disillusioned with the new card market now, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We sure are a long way from Topps printing cards and kids buying packs in stores. And maybe not for the better.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

So what happens to the ongoing FBI investigation surrounding PWCC

LOL, he said "ongoing"

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

[*]I agree with BobC that a TPG might be the next company in their crosshairs. I'll posit that it will be FCG - a new entry into grading, but one that seems to be higher on the technology ladder than most of the others.

They already own CSG. Or rather the majority stakeholder of Fanatics owns CSG.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

A couple of observations about Fanatics:

• They seem to have no limits on where they will insert themselves. If it involves sports and a profit can be made, they're in.
• I agree with BobC that a TPG might be the next company in their crosshairs. I'll posit that it will be FCG - a new entry into grading, but one that seems to be higher on the technology ladder than most of the others.
• Fanatics is just getting started a I believe they will squeeze every last bit of 'hobby' out of the sportscard market. If you were disillusioned with the new card market now, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Not familiar with FCG, and know literally nothing about them. Seems Fanatics and their owners tend to go for well-established, long-term/time companies to acquire, at least so far. That is why it is an interesting topic to discuss, and will be fun to see where they are going and what they may do next. Despite any possible technological advantages this FCG company may have, I'm guessing the Fanatics people may be more interested in some significant market share and hobby acceptance in a TPG they my look to acquire, for now.

Good points/questions. Like you, I'm curious as to what else may be done in the future to change the sports card/collectibles market going forward.

[Brian Van Horn]

Just saw this in this thread and I am jumping to part two already. I can't wait for what's next in this acquisition and when it hits the fan. Nothing against Fanatics.

[Mungo Hungo]

Originally Posted by BobC

And speaking of moves and such by Fanatics, can't remember where but, I thought I had recently read/heard somewhere that in conjunction with MLB, the teams in future years were going to start having their rookies where some kind of MLB Debut patch on their uniforms the first few games or so they appear in. My understanding is those patches will then be removed after those first few games, and then get turned over to Topps for inclusion on designated rookie cards for those same players. Shades of the Logoman card successes NBA player cards have seen in recent years. How many of you think Topps would have been able to so easily set up and do something like that, before they were acquired and now owned by Fanatics? Being partly owned by MLB and the MLB Players Association can sure make doing such things happen that likely would never have happened when Topps was independent and on their own. Just another instance/example of how times are changing. Wonder what is next that they'll come up with.

Yes, there were some "articles" (really just dressed up press releases) about this at the end of March. Each player's patch, or part(s) of it, will be used for 1/1s in a yet-to-be-named set later this year or next year. But the larger context was left unsaid and undiscussed. If Topps/Fanatics will be releasing a 1/1 of every player who debuts, what else will they be doing for the same players? It hardly seems likely that the entire effort will go to issuing 300 1/1 cards. Presumably each debut player will get cards that are produced in sufficient volume so that more than one person can buy in ...

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Mungo Hungo

Yes, there were some "articles" (really just dressed up press releases) about this at the end of March. Each player's patch, or part(s) of it, will be used for 1/1s in a yet-to-be-named set later this year or next year. But the larger context was left unsaid and undiscussed. If Topps/Fanatics will be releasing a 1/1 of every player who debuts, what else will they be doing for the same players? It hardly seems likely that the entire effort will go to issuing 300 1/1 cards. Presumably each debut player will get cards that are produced in sufficient volume so that more than one person can buy in ...

Exactly right. And this is probably just a start for them. Like I mentioned earlier, people are going crazy for those NBA Logoman cards. These MLB Debut patches are sort of the same thing, but specifically for rookies. Can already imagine people clamoring for these whenever they do finally come out. And like you, am interested in what else they'll come up with now that the league and the players are basically in on making money off these cards also. I can see Fanatics/Topps churning out team specific items/sets, maybe special cards/items for players/teams that reach certain thresholds or accomplishments, and who knows what else. Will be interesting to see what else they come up with, and how well it takes off and how the hobby community sees and reacts to whatever they do.

[parkplace33]

I wonder if pwcc (or whatever their new name is) will be allowed back on eBay. Stranger things have happened.

[steve B]

Some good points, but I don't see them buying a grading company or a breaker as a move that would be seen as anything but a huge conflict.

Owning a manufacturer and a breaker? No, no way they'd feed the handful of "special" cards to the breaker....

Same for having a manufacturer, auction and grader. How could anyone take those grades seriously if it was the same owner?

[The Detroit Collector]

Fanatics is becoming a monopoly in the industry. You can decide yourself whether its good or bad.

They got their cards.
They got their Vault.
They got their auction site.
They need there grading company.

I dont see them "buying" any breakers, breakers are a subcategory of this hobby in my opinion.

[rjackson44]

As long as they dont buy net 54 ill be happy😎😎

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by rjackson44

As long as they dont buy net 54 ill be happy😎😎

54 Fanatics sounds like LIV golf to me.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

Fanatics is becoming a monopoly in the industry. You can decide yourself whether its good or bad.

They got their cards.
They got their Vault.
They got their auction site.
They need there grading company.

I dont see them "buying" any breakers, breakers are a subcategory of this hobby in my opinion.

They already have their grading company, Michael Rubin, owner of Fanatics is a major investor in CSG. This will not end well for the "hobby" collector.

[FrankWakefield]

+1 Exhibitman #8, and

+1 BobC #26.


I lament the demise of Topps. Tradition can be wonderful; you can't buy tradition... Topps had Tradition, and that's now gone.

The athletes and sham graders will be better off for this Fanatics transition; ball card collectors, ball fans, and the hobby will not be.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

+1 Exhibitman #8, and

+1 BobC #26.


I lament the demise of Topps. Tradition can be wonderful; you can't buy tradition... Topps had Tradition, and that's now gone.

The athletes and sham graders will be better off for this Fanatics transition; ball card collectors, ball fans, and the hobby will not be.

Like everything else, the greed will ruin it, and placate to the "new investors" who will subsequently have substantial losses and leave.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

+1 Exhibitman #8, and

+1 BobC #26.


I lament the demise of Topps. Tradition can be wonderful; you can't buy tradition... Topps had Tradition, and that's now gone.

The athletes and sham graders will be better off for this Fanatics transition; ball card collectors, ball fans, and the hobby will not be.

Mentally playing the first track of Fiddler on the Roof. I guess people are always nostalgic for the good old days, but I neither like nor understand the massive business this has become.

[Rhotchkiss]

Based on the article above, it looks like PWCC may have been in trouble financially. Reading between the lines, it looks like PWCC borrowed a bunch of money to lend on cards, the interest rate on that loan went way up while the value of the cards they lent on plummeted. PWCC takes back a ton of cards. PWCC cannot service it’s debt bc the lender does not want to get paid in cards. Now the entire company is at risk bc the assets are pledged as collateral; and perhaps the owners have personal liability too. Fanatics comes in and effectively assumes the position of the lender- they pay off the lender and take all of PWCC’s assets. I am not sure the owners got paid anything- it depends on how desperate they were; maybe they kept a slice of ownership.

Bottom line, I am guessing Fanatics had all the leverage in this deal, meaning they not only got a new platform/business, but they probably got a pretty good deal to boot

Again, I know nothing about this deal other than what is in the article and my (likely poor) intuition