Sweet Caporal pack on EBay

[Mountaineer1999]

What's the chances of this pack holding a T206?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...931328&alt=web

[slipk1068]

Slim to none. I am no expert but as far as I know, Sweet Cap T206 cards were distributed in 10 cigarette packs not 15. That tax stamp was used for a period of many years.

[hshrimps]

Factory seems right but I wouldn't jump on it since it looks like it has been tampered with. That big hole on the top most likely mean someone might have used a toothpick or stick to "feel" whether there's any cardboard in the pack already.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Slim to none. I am no expert but as far as I know, Sweet Cap T206 cards were distributed in 10 cigarette packs not 15. That tax stamp was used for a period of many years.

The description says it has a 1910 over stamp on the tax stamp so that much is known. However, from what I have read, I too believe the baseball cards came in 10 count packs.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Leon

The description says it has a 1910 over stamp on the tax stamp so that much is known. However, from what I have read. I too believe the baseball cards came in 10 count packs.

Yes Leon but I recall reading somewhere that tax stamp dates are unreliable. They were often used for a period of many years. You are certainly an expert on packaging so I will defer to you or maybe someone else can chime in.

[gnaz01]

Calling Jon C.

[pbspelly]

Still pretty cool item, but not worth $3k

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Yes Leon but I recall reading somewhere that tax stamp dates are unreliable. They were often used for a period of many years. You are certainly an expert on packaging so I will defer to you or maybe someone else can chime in.

I know a little about packs but don't consider myself an expert. Yes, the paper stamps themselves were definitely used for multiple years. I am talking about the ink stamp that is stamped on the paper stamp, with the date of 1910. The ink over-stamp definitely dates it correctly. However.. as said, baseball cards came in 10 count packs.

[Mountaineer1999]

Good information. Thanks guys. I couldn't afford to bid on it but thought it was a neat item. How fun would it be to open one of these packs though!!! One that actually contained the card.

[1880nonsports]

somewhere I have the first date for a "15" stamp....
worth about 75.-100. as a novelty go-with without spending 1000.+ for one with proper dating/factory/configuration.
Couple non-sport T cards possible within date frame but unsure if they found their way into 15's.
the hole in the pack is likely from a tobacco bug.

[rdwyer]

I agree with Leon. Baseball cards came in 10 count packs.

[NYHighlanderFan]

Thanks for the kind words with this pack. It sure is a gem...one of the nicest I've ever owned. For being 100 years old, as shown in the pictures, its condition is superb. Many on this forum have bought or traded some high-end cards, packets and boxes from me in the past. If anyone has any questions about it, please feel free to shoot me a message.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by NYHighlanderFan

Thanks for the kind words with this pack. It sure is a gem...one of the nicest I've ever owned. For being 100 years old, as shown in the pictures, its condition is superb. Many on this forum have bought or traded some high-end cards, packets and boxes from me in the past. If anyone has any questions about it, please feel free to shoot me a message.

Hi Joe
Can you tell us where you found information that leads you to believe there might have been a T205 or T206 in this pack as your description on ebay says?

[NYHighlanderFan]

Sure! The combination of the pack factory and stamp is eye-opening and intriguing to say the least. I would say those are the only two attributes the pack itself is saying.

But I come from the belief that American Beauty cards were issued in packs of "8" and that is why they are narrower than others. The same gentleman who taught me about those narrow AB cards also taught me about the cards having multiple purposes, including advertising and pack stiffeners. And he mentioned the these soft packs when talking about pack stiffeners, which American Beauty also had soft packs along with Sweet Caps. This gentleman acquired the entire T206 set many, many years ago and taught me everything he knew about them, including factories and printer scarcities 25-30 years before the internet. He learned from experience. This info is just passed-on knowledge and I know this stuff can't speak for anything in particular. But the factory and date sure does...unlike the other two Sweet Caporal packs currently up for sale now with post-WWI stamps or the wrong factory. And it certainly is unlike those Piedmont "12" packs with zero chance of having anything.

We all know it is impossible to guarantee anything, especially something like this having anything inside but the cigarettes themselves. And the only way that can even be guaranteed is due to the loose tobacco. But what I can guarantee is it's a surviving beauty in really nice condition.

[rdwyer]

I don't think there were any 15 count packs between 1909-1911. They were most likely used in the late teens or early twenties. Besides, it shows a soft pack and not slide & shell box.

[steve B]

It's closer than many packs I've seen. The stamp is probably the key.

from this site http://www.rdhinstl.com/taxpaid.htm

Cigarettes had comparable stamps. For instance, in 1910 small cigars were taxed at seventy-five cents per thousand, while the stamp at the left in this illustration shows that cigarettes were taxed at $1.25 per thousand. Beginning in 1917 there were classes of cigarettes as well as cigars, but depending upon weight per thousand. The middle stamp was used for Class B cigarettes, weighing more than three pounds per thousand, and is from series 104, meaning it was used for cigarettes produced in 1934. The stamp at the right is for Class A cigarettes, the most common type. Its number of 108 shows it was issued for 1938.

The pic it refers to is here

An interesting thing is that the stamp on the left has a cancel from ATco in March 1911 and is also factory 30.

The 1910 series stamps would have been phased out in 1917 when the different classes began. So the stamp is between 1910 and 1916-17.

I don't know as much about the cigarette tax stamps as some others. I'd be more comfortable with a dated cancel, but there are other packs that did have cards from 1910 that also don't have a dated cancel. It's possible the dating wasn't required during 1910 but was after that.

Pack that apparently had a card
http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_16.html

Another 1910 ten pack with an undated stamp

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/lot-24440.aspx

That this is a 15 pack would make me doubt it, but I've heard the pack stiffener thing as well. And having stiffeners in a soft 15 pack makes more sense.
The factory 649 packing log scraps mention "one per pack" and "two per pack". I'm wondering if that also indicates the pack size. One per 10 pack and two per 15 pack.

Has anyone ever tried running a pack like this through one of those fancy backscatter xray machines? The detail they can show is pretty impressive. Maybe good enough to show a card or lack of a card.

Steve B

[Bridwell]

I believe that American Tobacco Company introduced the 8-count and 15-count packs starting in 1910. It was done because of a tax increase. The price plus tax became a nice round number, apparently. I had read this online in a book someone wrote about ATC a long time ago. It did not mention whether they inserted cards in these packs. I haven't seen any proof that a T206 had ever been found in an 8-pack or 15-pack. But that doesn't mean it's not possible.