PSA Authenticity and Grade Guarantee - Anyone use it and do other companies offer it?

[parkplace33]

I got an email today from PSA highlighting their PSA Authenticity and Grade Guarantee. From their website (https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee) :

The PSA Authenticity and Grade Guarantee (“Guarantee”) is fundamental to PSA's reputation as the leading third-party authentication and grading service. Subject to the exceptions noted below, the Guarantee ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to each PSA-graded card. The terms and conditions detailed below govern the Guarantee. PSA reserves the right to modify or update the Guarantee at any time.

PSA guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded in accordance with PSA’s authentication and grading standards.

Upon presentation to PSA by the current owner of a PSA authenticated and graded card (“Card”), if PSA concludes that the Card was erroneously awarded the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, and provided that the Card had an active certification number on the cert lookup feature of the PSA website at the time it was purchased by the person submitting the Guarantee request, then PSA in its sole discretion will either:

Subject to the Maximum Amount, buy the card outright from the current owner at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards, or
Subject to the Maximum Amount, refund the difference in value between the original PSA grade and the current PSA grade if the grade is lowered or deemed to be authentic only. In this case, the card will also be returned to the customer along with the refund for the difference in value.

Believe this service has been around for a while, but I actually haven't heard of this before. I have a few questions for the board:

1. Have you ever utilized this guarantee for your PSA cards, either for counterfeit cards or overgraded cards? If so, how did the process go? How did PSA determine value?

2. Do other grading companies (SGC, Beckett) also have a similar guarantee?

[jchcollins]

The ultimate test of this of course would be for Ken Kendrick to call PSA up one day and tell them that his grail Wagner shouldn’t be an 8, because it’s obviously trimmed. He would have a lot of public support for doing something like that, since it infamously came out later that Bill Mastro did indeed trim the card - admitting to that on a survellience wire incidentally while the prosecution was gathering other evidence for his shill bidding charges.

I don’t expect this to ever happen in reality of course, but it’s neat to think about occasionally. I think it’s maybe even plausible that PSA has reached out to Ken and might have some secret deal / understanding with him so that he won’t ever do that…LOL.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[raulus]

I think there was some action here with the recent card doctoring saga from a few years ago. I'm sure Peter can recite the details from memory in his sleep.

My recollection is that the end result was rather uninspiring. Something along the lines of the fact that buyers would still pay market price for it since it's in the holder, even if it doesn't merit the assigned grade due to doctoring.

So kind of a circular result that the card is worth it because the grader proclaimed it and the market will pay for it (if it's in the holder), not because it was really true.

[Johnny630]

Doesn’t SGC have a guarantee?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Doesn’t SGC have a guarantee?

Sarcasm I assume.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I think there was some action here with the recent card doctoring saga from a few years ago. I'm sure Peter can recite the details from memory in his sleep.

My recollection is that the end result was rather uninspiring. Something along the lines of the fact that buyers would still pay market price for it since it's in the holder, even if it doesn't merit the assigned grade due to doctoring.

So kind of a circular result that the card is worth it because the grader proclaimed it and the market will pay for it (if it's in the holder), not because it was really true.

The guarantee has been discussed many times on this forum over the years. But the best indication of how little it means is that when the scandal really broke in earnest, Steve Sloan issued a statement urging people with doctored cards to contact their seller. And of course, if you do send in a doctored card under the guarantee, PSA can do whatever the hell it wants with it, usually stand behind the grade. Just ask AJ Johnson.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Doesn’t SGC have a guarantee?

I think they used to have one. It's right there in the name - the G stands for guarantee!

I think they dramatically watered it down at some point in the last decade.

Not that PSA's guarantee is really all that meaningful, in spite of being strongly worded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I think they used to have one. It's right there in the name - the G stands for guarantee!

I think they dramatically watered it down at some point in the last decade.

Not that PSA's guarantee is really all that meaningful, in spite of being strongly worded.

In the early days of the scandal they junked it. I talked to Peter Steinberg when it was taken down and he told me they were just reviewing it for language and it would be back up soon. It never appeared again. This is why I sometimes call them S_C.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the early days of the scandal they junked it. I talked to Peter Steinberg when it was taken down and he told me they were just reviewing it for language and it would be back up soon. It never appeared again. This is why I sometimes call them S_C.

Was it the authentic auto grading that cause the G to go away?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Was it the authentic auto grading that cause the G to go away?

No, they stopped standing behind any of their grades. Just flat out dropped the guarantee.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I got an email today from PSA highlighting their PSA Authenticity and Grade Guarantee. From their website (https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee) :

The PSA Authenticity and Grade Guarantee (“Guarantee”) is fundamental to PSA's reputation as the leading third-party authentication and grading service. Subject to the exceptions noted below, the Guarantee ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to each PSA-graded card. The terms and conditions detailed below govern the Guarantee. PSA reserves the right to modify or update the Guarantee at any time.

PSA guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded in accordance with PSA’s authentication and grading standards.

Upon presentation to PSA by the current owner of a PSA authenticated and graded card (“Card”), if PSA concludes that the Card was erroneously awarded the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, and provided that the Card had an active certification number on the cert lookup feature of the PSA website at the time it was purchased by the person submitting the Guarantee request, then PSA in its sole discretion will either:

Subject to the Maximum Amount, buy the card outright from the current owner at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards, or
Subject to the Maximum Amount, refund the difference in value between the original PSA grade and the current PSA grade if the grade is lowered or deemed to be authentic only. In this case, the card will also be returned to the customer along with the refund for the difference in value.

Believe this service has been around for a while, but I actually haven't heard of this before. I have a few questions for the board:

1. Have you ever utilized this guarantee for your PSA cards, either for counterfeit cards or overgraded cards? If so, how did the process go? How did PSA determine value?

2. Do other grading companies (SGC, Beckett) also have a similar guarantee?

Drew,

I haven't myself ever benefited from, or tried, to avail myself of their supposed guarantee. The biggest problem/question I can see though is if there really is/are any truly valid TPG guarantees to begin with.

Read the exact and explicit language of such TPG guarantees. THEY set the grading standards and rules. THEY determine the grade giving THEIR "opinion", based on THEIR grading standards and rules, no one else's. If ever questioned, THEY review THEIR grading standards and rules and THEIR opinion as the sole arbiter/authority in determining if THEY did anything wrong under THEIR guarantee, and what, if anything, THEY will pay/give to the alleged aggrieved party. Starting to get the drift?

These TPG guarantees were most likely written (or at least reviewed and approved) by well-paid attorneys in an attempt to not ever subject the TPG companies themselves to any real outside oversight and control, and most importantly, financial responsibility. At least not if it wasn't of THEIR own choice, and THEY deciding how much, if anything, would be paid in satisfaction of any such claims.

Everybody makes mistakes, and even the TPGs realize this and know their employees will occasionally make some. But then THEY, and pretty much THEY alone, under the terms of THEIR guarantees, get to decide if there really was an error, and if so, the value of that error and what the cost is to correct it. Some errors can be so obvious and downright stupid, that even a TPG cannot in any way, shape, or form, deny it. So they, on that rare occasion, go ahead and agree to pay/settle with someone to make it right, on an amount that THEY alone determine and decide upon. All so as to make it look to the collecting community that they actually do have a valid and reasonable guarantee that they do fully stand behind and adhere to. Think of the occasional pay-out supposedly under their guarantees as a sort of advertising/marketing cost to them, that these TPGs are fully willing to pay so as to let the hobby community keep their impressions that the TPGs are honest, reliable, unbiased, and so on, and that these guarantees of theirs are actually what the members of the hobby community want to believe they are.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

1. Have you ever utilized this guarantee for your PSA cards, either for counterfeit cards or overgraded cards? If so, how did the process go? How did PSA determine value?

2. Do other grading companies (SGC, Beckett) also have a similar guarantee?

First, ask yourself, what is it that a TPG (PSA, SGC, others) offer?

Answer - a plastic casing with a number on a label that for some reason or other drives collectors/investors to shovel piles of cash at the labels with the higher numbers.

Different opinions on this. Exactly, WHAT percentage of cards is acceptable when a TPG indicates a card is authentic/unaltered and it is found that the card is neither authentic or not altered?

Answer to question 1 - No, I've never utilized the guarantee but I have a few cards that are obviously incorrect in the assessment that the card deserves a numerical grade for not being altered. Not sure what good it would do to send it back because (1) I wouldn't trust them to somehow lose the card(s) or decert them and send them back un-encapsulated (2) I wouldn't be surprised if they send them back and say it's their opinion nothing's wrong with the card(s).

Answer to question 2 - No clue. I was always under the impression that there was some type of implied guarantee to these graded cards because the TPGs have a direct influence on card pricing and they should somehow stand by their "subjectivity" and be responsible for their product output (subjectivity).

And as they say - every thread should have a picture of a cool card (bahhhhh...)

PSA8 Wagner T206.jpg

[BobC]

As for the earlier comment made about Ken Kendrick, and his supposed claim he could make against PSA for the T206 Gretzky-Wagner he now owns, I honestly don't think any special deal/agreement needs to be in place with PSA because of their guarantee. I think it can be readily and easily argued that not only did the errant grading of that specific Wagner card not necessarily result in a potential loss to Kendrick, but if anything, may likely have increased its value.

That specific card is one of about what, 60-70 known T206 Wagners, right? Well, with all the publicity this card has received, including prior ownership by someone such as Gretzky, and now being associated with a known fraud and criminal activity that resulted in people going to prison over this card, this card is not just famous, it is now infamous throughout the hobby, and beyond. When (not if) the day comes that this card should hit the market for sale, does anyone really think that it will not reassert itself as the most expensive sports card ever sold in history? To me, with this additional back story and connections in the hobby, the Gretzky-Wagner is sort of like Joe Jackson cards. No dispute Joe Jackson was a great, star player, worthy of HOF status and induction. But honestly, had he not become involved in the Black Sox scandal, which resulted in him being in stories, movies, and other ongoing media/publicity for all these years, does anyone really think his cards would be anywhere near as valuable and expensive as they are today? Granted, he would likely have been inducted into the HOF, but would he be anywhere even near as well-known as he is today, especially outside the hobby? There are a lot of other players from Jackson's time in MLB that are also in the HOF, but have card/item values not even in the same zip code as what his bring at sale/auction. That unique backstory/infamy connection to the Gretzky-Wagner card likely elevates its value above that of any of other T206 Wagner card currently known to exist, even if it was re-holdered as only an "A" grade at some point. There is no other card like it in existence, and it is a true 1 of 1 for all the elements and circumstances that created and surround it. And therein lies the real value, not simply from od because of the grade on the holder.

[BobC]

.

[Snowman]

During the pandemic, when the trimming scandal was gaining a lot of steam and BODA were tirelessly posting thousands of trimmed cards with before and after photos, there were several instances of people sending in their trimmed cards back to PSA under the grade guarantee program. Many of those cards were sent back after review with PSA saying something along the lines of, "no evidence of alteration, this card looks good". That said, PSA does also honor their grade guarantee with at least some degree of regulatory, according to Nat Turner. What percentage of the time claims are honored vs rejected though is anyone's guess.

Understandably, those who sent in cards thinking that PSA would reimburse them were upset when PSA, in their view, did not honor their grade guarantee. After all, BODA had posted before AND after images of the same card with yellow and red highlights showing which edges were trimmed. This was quite predictable, however, as PSA does not grade cards from a scan. They must examine them physically. They couldn't possibly be expected to honor a grade guarantee based on images that someone dug up online. Otherwise, anyone with an axe to grind and twelve minutes of photoshop experience could bankrupt them in an afternoon. Also, if you read PSA's grading standards page, you'll find the intentional phrasing for a trimmed card receiving the "Authentic Altered" grade as "the card shows evidence of trimming." The "shows evidence of" part is important. Most of these cards, especially the modern ones, do not show any physical evidence of trimming. The edges are truly indistinguishable from factory cuts. I assume, if it were ever challenged in court, everything would hang on what it means for a card to "show evidence of" trimming.

Should PSA ever be forced to make good on all trimmed cards that they missed, they would be bankrupt before they even paid out on 10% of those claims. Their potential exposure is the sum total value of all trimmed cards in PSA holders, and that number is far, far greater than the value of PSA itself. Honestly, I'm amazed that PSA even attempts to keep up this facade. SGC realized it was futile. That's why they took down their guarantee. PSA is no better at detecting alterations than SGC. In fact, they're almost certainly worse at it. But they still want you to think that they can (until you file a claim that is).

[Fred]

Well, the TPGs could pay out in "free submissions"

My opinion is that SGC is getting worse with the encapsulation of trimmed cards. It kind of reminds me of GAI towards the end (before they closed the doors).

The flips are worth more than the cards in many cases.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

During the pandemic, when the trimming scandal was gaining a lot of steam and BODA were tirelessly posting thousands of trimmed cards with before and after photos, there were several instances of people sending in their trimmed cards back to PSA under the grade guarantee program. Many of those cards were sent back after review with PSA saying something along the lines of, "no evidence of alteration, this card looks good". That said, PSA does also honor their grade guarantee with at least some degree of regulatory, according to Nat Turner. What percentage of the time claims are honored vs rejected though is anyone's guess.

Understandably, those who sent in cards thinking that PSA would reimburse them were upset when PSA, in their view, did not honor their grade guarantee. After all, BODA had posted before AND after images of the same card with yellow and red highlights showing which edges were trimmed. This was quite predictable, however, as PSA does not grade cards from a scan. They must examine them physically. They couldn't possibly be expected to honor a grade guarantee based on images that someone dug up online. Otherwise, anyone with an axe to grind and twelve minutes of photoshop experience could bankrupt them in an afternoon. Also, if you read PSA's grading standards page, you'll find the intentional phrasing for a trimmed card receiving the "Authentic Altered" grade as "the card shows evidence of trimming." The "shows evidence of" part is important. Most of these cards, especially the modern ones, do not show any physical evidence of trimming. The edges are truly indistinguishable from factory cuts. I assume, if it were ever challenged in court, everything would hang on what it means for a card to "show evidence of" trimming.

Should PSA ever be forced to make good on all trimmed cards that they missed, they would be bankrupt before they even paid out on 10% of those claims. Their potential exposure is the sum total value of all trimmed cards in PSA holders, and that number is far, far greater than the value of PSA itself. Honestly, I'm amazed that PSA even attempts to keep up this facade. SGC realized it was futile. That's why they took down their guarantee. PSA is no better at detecting alterations than SGC. In fact, they're almost certainly worse at it. But they still want you to think that they can (until you file a claim that is).

If you have total control over the outcome, and it's highly unlikely anyone will ever win a legal challenge to a "review", it's essentially bullshit. But they probably honor it just enough, and I would guess for not much total dollar value, that they can keep up a pretense.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

During the pandemic, when the trimming scandal was gaining a lot of steam and BODA were tirelessly posting thousands of trimmed cards with before and after photos, there were several instances of people sending in their trimmed cards back to PSA under the grade guarantee program. Many of those cards were sent back after review with PSA saying something along the lines of, "no evidence of alteration, this card looks good". That said, PSA does also honor their grade guarantee with at least some degree of regulatory, according to Nat Turner. What percentage of the time claims are honored vs rejected though is anyone's guess.

Understandably, those who sent in cards thinking that PSA would reimburse them were upset when PSA, in their view, did not honor their grade guarantee. After all, BODA had posted before AND after images of the same card with yellow and red highlights showing which edges were trimmed. This was quite predictable, however, as PSA does not grade cards from a scan. They must examine them physically. They couldn't possibly be expected to honor a grade guarantee based on images that someone dug up online. Otherwise, anyone with an axe to grind and twelve minutes of photoshop experience could bankrupt them in an afternoon. Also, if you read PSA's grading standards page, you'll find the intentional phrasing for a trimmed card receiving the "Authentic Altered" grade as "the card shows evidence of trimming." The "shows evidence of" part is important. Most of these cards, especially the modern ones, do not show any physical evidence of trimming. The edges are truly indistinguishable from factory cuts. I assume, if it were ever challenged in court, everything would hang on what it means for a card to "show evidence of" trimming.

Should PSA ever be forced to make good on all trimmed cards that they missed, they would be bankrupt before they even paid out on 10% of those claims. Their potential exposure is the sum total value of all trimmed cards in PSA holders, and that number is far, far greater than the value of PSA itself. Honestly, I'm amazed that PSA even attempts to keep up this facade. SGC realized it was futile. That's why they took down their guarantee. PSA is no better at detecting alterations than SGC. In fact, they're almost certainly worse at it. But they still want you to think that they can (until you file a claim that is).

I agree that PSA would never have the money to buy back the number of altered cards they have encapsulated. Sure that PSA has or will buy back some cards but more times than not, the graders double down on the review and the remains in the holder. I think the biggest factor in why there is a low number of buybacks is that a majority of the collectors either cannot tell their card is altered or they do not care if it is.

As far as being able to detect a trim job from a factory cut on vintage cards, unless someone is able to tone the edge of the edge to match the original edges and exactly replicate the cut, it is pretty easy to see if a vintage card has been trimmed. Harder once encapsulated. I do not look at modern so I could not comment as to ease of detection but I would imagine it is nearly impossible to detect a trim from a factory cut by looking at the edges.