Wtb -cassius clay postcard

[Forever Young]

1960.

Thanks!

[Exhibitman]

what postcard?

[Michael B]

If you mean the Cassius Clay Exhibit, Scott Gaynor has one on ebay right now that ends in 2 days or so.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Michael B

If you mean the Cassius Clay Exhibit, Scott Gaynor has one on ebay right now that ends in 2 days or so.

Yes that’s the one. Thank you. Looking for a cleaner example. But that went for a good price.

[Exhibitman]

Mine has writing on it...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Adam you've probably explained this before, can any of these actually be definitively traced to 1960 as opposed to being possible later releases?

[Exhibitman]

No, and I doubt it would be: unlike today's card makers, ESCO did not do rookies. Gehrig's the one they got closest too, and he had already seen some action in 1923 and 1924 before they issued his card in 1925. My guess is that the card first was issued in 1962-1963, when he was a fast-rising contender.

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Adam you've probably explained this before, can any of these actually be definitively traced to 1960 as opposed to being possible later releases?

I know it is a longshot, but does anyone have an ESCO sales catalog from 1960?

[Exhibitman]

I'd like to see 1960-1964.

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I'd like to see 1960-1964.

If anyone had them, I thought it would be you.

[Exhibitman]

Nope. They are rarer than hens' teeth. A run of catalogs would answer so many questions and change so many perceptions. Take the football issue that for some reason was labeled 1948-52. Wrong! Here's a page from a 1955 catalog:



Hint: top right.

[sthoemke]

Great sales sheet!

I thought the wrestling/boxing sets shown started in 1955, but they must have been released at least a year earlier.

[sthoemke]

Just came across this.

The same wrestling/boxing sets, shown as revised for 1961, which could mean the sets were published for at least 6 years.

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Nope. They are rarer than hens' teeth. A run of catalogs would answer so many questions and change so many perceptions. Take the football issue that for some reason was labeled 1948-52. Wrong! Here's a page from a 1955 catalog:

....

A 1948 catalog sold in October of last year. I wonder if that one might show a football set.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by sthoemke

Just came across this.

The same wrestling/boxing sets, shown as revised for 1961, which could mean the sets were published for at least 6 years.

Now that is interesting, but I doubt that the Clay card is from 1961. Here's a post on the issue from last year:

My guess has always been the Exhibit card is from around 1962-1963. The image they used looks like it is from a photo session that produced one of Ali's promos:



The very first Clay promo photo session took place in December 1960 in Miami. Here is a photo using that image, from 1963:



It is clearly earlier than the ESCO image. Now, here is a publicity photo from The Thrilla in Manila:



The first image is the same as the Exhibit image. They used that to illustrate the young man. The second image was used in the packet for the first Frazier fight but dates to the latter part of the 1960s.

Here is a rare ca. 1967 card of Ali:



From the extension of the Kid Herman set. I've also seen a lot of photos from a 1962 Stanley Weston session that look similar to the image but are of a younger man. So we are narrowing the window down to pre-forced retirement but post 1962. My guess is 1963 since Clay was decimating the ranks and becoming a top contender. Of course, we would need catalogs to pin it down.

Here's an uncut sheet:



Willie Pastrano won a title in 1963. As did Joey Giardello. It also has Patterson, Johansson and Liston. All were relevant in the division 1962-early 1963. Ingo was done in April 1963. He'd not have been in an ESCO issue debuting in 1964; one thing they did well was weed out retired athletes.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Mine has writing on it...

Clean enough for me.. how much?